8-track studio around $2000

[gjsmo]

My vocalist just graduated, and apparently he can buy "whatever he
wants" for getting good grades. He wants to spend this on studio
equipment.

So, I would like to see what you all think of this proposal for a
studio around $2000. Computer-based obviously, I have Sonar X1 right
now

Motu 896mk3 - $995 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/MOTU-896mk3-Firewire-
Audio-Interface-720085-i1759797.gc)
Rode NT-1A - $230 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Rode-Microphones-NT1-A-
Anniversary-Model-Microphone-271593-i1911215.gc)
2x Blue Spark - $398 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Blue-Spark-
Studio-Microphone-106233745-i1683868.gc)
3x Monster XLR cables - $90 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Monster-
Cable-S-100-XLR-Microphone-Cable-102469608-i1128553.gc)
On-Stage Stands Mic Stand Package - $99 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/
On-Stage-Stands-Mic-Stand-Package-452062-i1142209.gc#)
Digital Reference DR-DRM7 7-Piece Drum Microphone Kit with Case - $200
(http://www.guitarcenter.com/Digital-Reference-DR-DRM7-7-Piece-Drum-
Microphone-Kit-with-Case-270458-i1911143.gc) - pencils on hi-hat and
my 8" tom
Shure Beta 57A - $139 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-
Microphone-100106076-i1126429.gc)
Total about $2150

Some questions...
Would a pair of Blue Sparks work for drum overheads? Mainly they'd be
for that, acoustic and amp micing (my guitarist recent got a 5150 -
he's happy with his amp now...).
Can I use the Rode for anything drums? Maybe just a room mic?
Is the Motu reliable? I have a Tascam US-800 right now, and while it
sounds quite nice, the drivers are nearly unusable. I have a separate
hard drive for it, and it takes nearly an hour to get working. Mainly
I need driver stability.
I'm planning on using either my computer speakers (quite nice sounding
JBLs) or a relatively good hi-fi stereo and some Bose (pretty good,
IMHO - I didn't pay for them) speakers. I consider these to both sound
quite good, though they are obviously colored. However, I am likely to
EQ to taste on flat speakers, so it seems like this would get me a
better frequency response. I also have some semi-decent over-ear
isolation headphones. Is this a good idea overall?
Should I get a stereo mic bar?
I've heard the 57s are "fizzy" - I'm planning on using it as a snare
mic, but what else does it lend itself to? That doesn't seem like a
particularly good adjective, or is it just me?

FYI, I already have 2 mixers (a 6-channel with two preamps, and an 8-
channel with 6 preamps), an MXL 990 and 991, two cheap ($20 or so)
dynamic mics which work unusually well for kick and snare mics, a
headphone amp and pairs of over-ear cans for everyone in the band and
of course my computer with Sonar X1.

Any help greatly appreciated. If this setups works like I think it
should, I will be a happy person.

[PStamler]

Without good monitors and some room treatment, that kit will make
awful recordings. And it would if all the microphones were Neumanns,
too.

Think about this: spend about $800-1000 on some decent powered
monitors and about $300 on room treatment. Then get an RE20 and a
couple of (real) Oktava MC012s, a couple of stands, and a recent
Mackie Onyx console with Firewire outs. When he learns to make good
recordings with that setup (those three mics will get him damned good
results on almost anything) then he can think about more stuff.

Peace,
Paul

[geoff]

"gjsmo" > wrote in message
...
> My vocalist just graduated, and apparently he can buy "whatever he
> wants" for getting good grades. He wants to spend this on studio
> equipment.
>
> So, I would like to see what you all think of this proposal for a
> studio around $2000. Computer-based obviously, I have Sonar X1 right
> now


I don't see where "8 tracks" comes into the equation. An 8 channel interface
will not limit you to 8 tracks.


> Can I use the Rode for anything drums?

Yep. Everything. Not too close to the kick beater or hole.

>Maybe just a room mic?

That too.

> Is the Motu reliable?

Yep, especially if you have a TI firewire chipset..

>I have a Tascam US-800 right now, and while it
> sounds quite nice, the drivers are nearly unusable. I have a separate
> hard drive for it, and it takes nearly an hour to get working. Mainly
> I need driver stability.
> I'm planning on using either my computer speakers (quite nice sounding
> JBLs) or a relatively good hi-fi stereo and some Bose (pretty good,
> IMHO - I didn't pay for them) speakers.

JBL may be OKish. BOSE ?!!!!

> I've heard the 57s are "fizzy" - I'm planning on using it as a snare
> mic, but what else does it lend itself to? That doesn't seem like a
> particularly good adjective, or is it just me?

No. Load it properly and the fizz might disappear - search the article in
Recording magasine.

geoff

[gjsmo]

On Jun 23, 7:56*pm, PStamler > wrote:
> Without good monitors and some room treatment, that kit will make
> awful recordings. And it would if all the microphones were Neumanns,
> too.
>
> Think about this: spend about $800-1000 on some decent powered
> monitors and about $300 on room treatment. Then get an RE20 and a
> couple of (real) Oktava MC012s, a couple of stands, and a recent
> Mackie Onyx console with Firewire outs. When he learns to make good
> recordings with that setup (those three mics will get him damned good
> results on almost anything) then he can think about more stuff.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

Believe it or not, my room sounds pretty good. I think I'll hand some
curtains on the walls, though.
I have two rooms, anyways. One for summer, one for every other season.
The attic (most seasons) is at least 10 degrees hotter in the summer,
and unbearable. So I move one floor down.
I've gotten some ok recordings in both rooms, with fairly horrible
micing. I think real close micing (even cheap mics) would do me some
good.

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/24/2011 4:15 AM, geoff wrote:

> I don't see where "8 tracks" comes into the equation. An 8 channel interface
> will not limit you to 8 tracks.

Some people don't know the difference, and some think that 8
channels limits you to 8 tracks. Time for some basic
educations. But if the guy is a Sonar user already, he
should know this, so best just not to be critical about the
language without some explanation.

>> Is the Motu reliable?
> Yep, especially if you have a TI firewire chipset..

There is no longer a single TI Firewire chipset. Some work,
some don't, some (and this is true with other Firewire
adapter chips) are dependent on other chips in the computer
to make them not work. "TI" is no longer a magic bullet. It
never was, but it used to be a better bet than it is today.

I don't have any TI-based Firewire ports around here, mostly
Via, an NEC, an Augere, and an unknown one, and I've never
found any audio hardware that hasn't worked on any of them,
but that just means that my luck of the draw has been good
so far. I don't count on anything when it comes to computer
interfacing. You have to take every one as its own special
case and see if it works, doesn't work, or can be coaxed
into working acceptably.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Phil W[_3_]]

"gjsmo":

> My vocalist just graduated, and apparently he can buy "whatever he
> wants" for getting good grades. He wants to spend this on studio
> equipment.
>
> So, I would like to see what you all think of this proposal for a
> studio around $2000. Computer-based obviously, I have Sonar X1 right
> now
>
> Motu 896mk3 - $995 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/MOTU-896mk3-Firewire-
> Audio-Interface-720085-i1759797.gc)
> Rode NT-1A - $230 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Rode-Microphones-NT1-A-
> Anniversary-Model-Microphone-271593-i1911215.gc)
> 2x Blue Spark - $398 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Blue-Spark-
> Studio-Microphone-106233745-i1683868.gc)
> 3x Monster XLR cables - $90 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Monster-
> Cable-S-100-XLR-Microphone-Cable-102469608-i1128553.gc)

Monster cables are pure voodoo and even more overpriced than any real voodoo
gadget!
Get decent normal XLR cables and save loads of money for even more cables or
other senseful stuff.

> Some questions...
> Would a pair of Blue Sparks work for drum overheads? Mainly they'd be
> for that, acoustic and amp micing (my guitarist recent got a 5150 -
> he's happy with his amp now...).

For guitar amp mic´ing, check out Sennheiser´s e606 or 906.

> Can I use the Rode for anything drums? Maybe just a room mic?
> Is the Motu reliable? I have a Tascam US-800 right now, and while it
> sounds quite nice, the drivers are nearly unusable. I have a separate
> hard drive for it, and it takes nearly an hour to get working. Mainly
> I need driver stability.

My experience with MOTU drivers is: pretty good and stable. A friend has a
828 mk2 (Firewire) and we use it regularly with Mac OS or Windows - never
had a driver problem on either platform.
Others here will probably report different experiences, but I´d trust MOTU
drivers *much* more than Tascam drivers.
Tascam is typical for those companies, that made a good name in the analog
days, but never really got the switch to what´s important in the
computer-based audio world...
They may make good sounding preamps, but that´s worth nothing, if the
drivers don´t work well.

> Should I get a stereo mic bar?

Try it, they´re not expensive - under 10$ is okay to experiment.

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 4:15 am, "geoff" > wrote:
> "gjsmo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > My vocalist just graduated, and apparently he can buy "whatever he
> > wants" for getting good grades. He wants to spend this on studio
> > equipment.
>
> > So, I would like to see what you all think of this proposal for a
> > studio around $2000. Computer-based obviously, I have Sonar X1 right
> > now
>
> I don't see where "8 tracks" comes into the equation. An 8 channel interface
> will not limit you to 8 tracks.
>
> > Can I use the Rode for anything drums?
>
> Yep. Everything. Not too close to the kick beater or hole.
>
> >Maybe just a room mic?
>
> That too.
>
> > Is the Motu reliable?
>
> Yep, especially if you have a TI firewire chipset..
>
> >I have a Tascam US-800 right now, and while it
> > sounds quite nice, the drivers are nearly unusable. I have a separate
> > hard drive for it, and it takes nearly an hour to get working. Mainly
> > I need driver stability.
> > I'm planning on using either my computer speakers (quite nice sounding
> > JBLs) or a relatively good hi-fi stereo and some Bose (pretty good,
> > IMHO - I didn't pay for them) speakers.
>
> JBL may be OKish. BOSE ?!!!!
>
> > I've heard the 57s are "fizzy" - I'm planning on using it as a snare
> > mic, but what else does it lend itself to? That doesn't seem like a
> > particularly good adjective, or is it just me?
>
> No. Load it properly and the fizz might disappear - search the article in
> Recording magasine.
>
> geoff

I never meant 8 tracks as a limit - 8 tracks at a time.
Seriously, the Bose speakers aren't bad. They're not audiophile, but I
like them.
Load it properly? So... I just need a loud source? I know more about
the computer side than the equipment side.


On Jun 24, 8:15 am, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On 6/24/2011 4:15 AM, geoff wrote:
>
> > I don't see where "8 tracks" comes into the equation. An 8 channel interface
> > will not limit you to 8 tracks.
>
> Some people don't know the difference, and some think that 8
> channels limits you to 8 tracks. Time for some basic
> educations. But if the guy is a Sonar user already, he
> should know this, so best just not to be critical about the
> language without some explanation.

Thank you.

> >> Is the Motu reliable?
> > Yep, especially if you have a TI firewire chipset..
>
> There is no longer a single TI Firewire chipset. Some work,
> some don't, some (and this is true with other Firewire
> adapter chips) are dependent on other chips in the computer
> to make them not work. "TI" is no longer a magic bullet. It
> never was, but it used to be a better bet than it is today.
>
> I don't have any TI-based Firewire ports around here, mostly
> Via, an NEC, an Augere, and an unknown one, and I've never
> found any audio hardware that hasn't worked on any of them,
> but that just means that my luck of the draw has been good
> so far. I don't count on anything when it comes to computer
> interfacing. You have to take every one as its own special
> case and see if it works, doesn't work, or can be coaxed
> into working acceptably.
>
> --
> "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
> operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
> it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
> of audio." - John Watkinson
>
> http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
> interesting audio stuff

Err..... dang. Well, I can always buy a firewire PCI/PCIe card for my
computer. I was just going to use the built-in, but I don't even know
what it is. Bear in mind my problem is not connectivity issues, but
unstable drivers. I really need a stable driver. My band members are
understandably impatient, since I tend to take more time than
necessary. So I need it to be working for a few hours straight, and
not have issues in the beginning.

On Jun 24, 9:35*am, "Phil W" > wrote:
> "gjsmo":
> > My vocalist just graduated, and apparently he can buy "whatever he
> > wants" for getting good grades. He wants to spend this on studio
> > equipment.
>
> > So, I would like to see what you all think of this proposal for a
> > studio around $2000. Computer-based obviously, I have Sonar X1 right
> > now
>
> > Motu 896mk3 - $995 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/MOTU-896mk3-Firewire-
> > Audio-Interface-720085-i1759797.gc)
> > Rode NT-1A - $230 (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Rode-Microphones-NT1-A-
> > Anniversary-Model-Microphone-271593-i1911215.gc)
> > 2x Blue Spark - $398 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Blue-Spark-
> > Studio-Microphone-106233745-i1683868.gc)
> > 3x Monster XLR cables - $90 total (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Monster-
> > Cable-S-100-XLR-Microphone-Cable-102469608-i1128553.gc)
>
> Monster cables are pure voodoo and even more overpriced than any real voodoo
> gadget!
> Get decent normal XLR cables and save loads of money for even more cables or
> other senseful stuff.

They're not that more expensive, and I don't like the unreliable cable
(bad plugs that come un-soldered).
The livewire stuff was the same price on GC, is there a better place
to look? I really like GC's return policy. And yes, I do know of
zzounds and swee****er - as you should know, GC owns musician's
friend.

> > Some questions...
> > Would a pair of Blue Sparks work for drum overheads? Mainly they'd be
> > for that, acoustic and amp micing (my guitarist recent got a 5150 -
> > he's happy with his amp now...).
>
> For guitar amp mic´ing, check out Sennheiser´s e606 or 906.

I can't spend TOO much.

> > Can I use the Rode for anything drums? Maybe just a room mic?
> > Is the Motu reliable? I have a Tascam US-800 right now, and while it
> > sounds quite nice, the drivers are nearly unusable. I have a separate
> > hard drive for it, and it takes nearly an hour to get working. Mainly
> > I need driver stability.
>
> My experience with MOTU drivers is: pretty good and stable. A friend has a
> 828 mk2 (Firewire) and we use it regularly with Mac OS or Windows - never
> had a driver problem on either platform.

That's good. Very good.

> Others here will probably report different experiences, but I´d trust MOTU
> drivers *much* more than Tascam drivers.
> Tascam is typical for those companies, that made a good name in the analog
> days, but never really got the switch to what´s important in the
> computer-based audio world...
> They may make good sounding preamps, but that´s worth nothing, if the
> drivers don´t work well.

I've notice the US-800 pres sound quite clean for such a cheap ($230)
interface. I just can't deal with the driver issues.

> > Should I get a stereo mic bar?
>
> Try it, they´re not expensive - under 10$ is okay to experiment.


Overall, is this setup an ok one? I feel like I'm missing something...
I can throw in some room treatment, but like I said, I think my rooms
are OK. I just don't want to tell my friend "This will make pro
recordings" and then discover "Oh, by the way, we need $500 more stuff
because I forgot X."

[Scott Dorsey]

gjsmo > wrote:
>
>They're not that more expensive, and I don't like the unreliable cable
>(bad plugs that come un-soldered).

Then avoid the Monster cable crap.

>The livewire stuff was the same price on GC, is there a better place
>to look? I really like GC's return policy. And yes, I do know of
>zzounds and swee****er - as you should know, GC owns musician's
>friend.

Try Markertek or Gepco. Buy whatever cable you like, just make sure it
has Switchcraft, Amphenol, or Neutrik connectors and not crap. The
Markertek house-made cables are fine.

>> > Some questions...
>> > Would a pair of Blue Sparks work for drum overheads? Mainly they'd be
>> > for that, acoustic and amp micing (my guitarist recent got a 5150 -
>> > he's happy with his amp now...).
>>
>> For guitar amp mic=B4ing, check out Sennheiser=B4s e606 or 906.
>
>I can't spend TOO much.

If it were me, i'd get two Oktava 012s and an RE-20. The RE-20 is a great
vocal mike, a great guitar amp mike, really a great mike on anything. It is
expensive but it's a mike that easily replaces a dozen cheaper mikes.

>Overall, is this setup an ok one? I feel like I'm missing something...
>I can throw in some room treatment, but like I said, I think my rooms
>are OK. I just don't want to tell my friend "This will make pro
>recordings" and then discover "Oh, by the way, we need $500 more stuff
>because I forgot X."

Measure the room and find out.

Also I don't see any proper monitoring in there. In general I would suggest
budgeting half of any total studio budget for monitoring.

Be aware that cables and adaptors and attenuators will eat up a whole lot
more of your budget than you ever expect. But they will also last a lifetime.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

gjsmo > wrote:
>
>I never meant 8 tracks as a limit - 8 tracks at a time.
>Seriously, the Bose speakers aren't bad. They're not audiophile, but I
>like them.

Which ones are they?

Bose products vary from "absolutely putrid, makes me want to throw up"
sound quality on up to the "I can't stand to listen to this for very long
because it's so shrieky and muffled but it doesn't make my head hurt much"
quality.

Monitoring is the absolute most important part of the studio. If you cannot
hear what you are doing, you can make no decisions about recording. You want
to get real monitors, not some bletcherous low-grade consumer speakers.

Really.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Phil W[_3_]]

"gjsmo":
> "Phil W" wrote:

>> Monster cables are pure voodoo and even more overpriced than any real
>> voodoo
>> gadget!
>> Get decent normal XLR cables and save loads of money for even more cables
>> or
>> other senseful stuff.
>
> They're not that more expensive, and I don't like the unreliable cable
> (bad plugs that come un-soldered).

But still, Monster cables are not nearly worth their price. And I didn´t
mean to say: buy cheap junk cables, but decent quality for a decent price.
;-)

> The livewire stuff was the same price on GC, is there a better place
> to look? I really like GC's return policy. And yes, I do know of
> zzounds and swee****er - as you should know, GC owns musician's
> friend.

Actually, I neither know "livewire" cables, nor which US American store
chain owns which others... The reason might be, that I live in Germany.
Over here, I made good experiences with "Cordial" cables. They have Neutrik
connectors and are well-built. Used for live *and* studio and they still
work after quite a while.
Other than that, I can´t name any brands/makers, but there´s definitely
better stuff than Monster junk at a much better price point on the market.

>> > Some questions...
>> > Would a pair of Blue Sparks work for drum overheads? Mainly they'd be
>> > for that, acoustic and amp micing (my guitarist recent got a 5150 -
>> > he's happy with his amp now...).
>>
>> For guitar amp mic´ing, check out Sennheiser´s e606 or 906.
>
> I can't spend TOO much.

The e606 costs about 100 EUR, the 906 about 160 EUR here. The US won´t be
too different. IMHO the e606 sounds better on guitar amps than a SM57 and it
costs about the same.
Besides that, it might be a good idea, if the guitar player had his/her own
mic for live use. So, why not let him/her get one at own cost? I mean,
guitar players spend spend so unbelievably much money on senseless
things.... ;-) On the other hand, you can always buy a single mic later on.

Are these Blue Spark mics condensers? If so, I would rather not put them in
front of a screaming guitar amp´s speaker.

> I've notice the US-800 pres sound quite clean for such a cheap ($230)
> interface. I just can't deal with the driver issues.

Well, guess why Tascam sold it so cheap!
Is there a chance, you can use it just as a pre-amp unit with individual
outputs for each channel?

>> > Should I get a stereo mic bar?
>>
>> Try it, they´re not expensive - under 10$ is okay to experiment.
>
> Overall, is this setup an ok one? I feel like I'm missing something...

Monitors, as others have mentioned! Don´t underestimate their importance.
Rather go for active monitors, than passive ones + external power amp.

> I can throw in some room treatment, but like I said, I think my rooms
> are OK. I just don't want to tell my friend "This will make pro
> recordings" and then discover "Oh, by the way, we need $500 more stuff
> because I forgot X."

There´s always something you can do regarding room treatment. Pro recording
studio level won´t be possible, but you can still improve each room a lot
with relatively little effort/cost. For example, some years ago, we put
(slightly used, but almost new) carpets on the walls of our rehearsal space
and the room reverb got dampened by a good amount.
Of course, room sound is a component you want to capture. But only, when you
have a good sounding room, that was build by a acoustics expert builder - as
found in real studios.

Others here can tell you better, what´s important in that regard.


Phil

[gjsmo]

The speakers are Bose Interaudio SA 200s.
I like them, as I've said. I may be able to sprig for some monitors,
if necessary.
The blue mics are condensers. Why again is it bad to put a condenser
in front of an amp?
I'm thinking of putting some curtains or carpets or other fabric-y
stuff on some of the walls. I'll post a recording of my drums later in
the room.
I'd like at least a stereo pair of mics, and a better vocal mic.

[gjsmo]

Not sure if anyone cares, but here is a quick recording of my set,
using a mixer into my built-in soundcard's line in. I was lazy, and it
shows, with intermediate quick drop-outs (is there a name for this?)

Tell me if you think this will sound okay. I'm thinking the room needs
a bit of HF dampening. After all, it has glass windows on 3 sides.
Maybe just curtains?

http://fileape.com/dl/zyxc5ZCwF19ku7Ts

[Scott Dorsey]

gjsmo > wrote:
>The speakers are Bose Interaudio SA 200s.
>I like them, as I've said. I may be able to sprig for some monitors,
>if necessary.

You really need some real monitors. In fact, I'd suggest you spend at least
half your budget on monitors. Once you get a good monitor chain, you'll
start understanding why people are making some of the comments they are.

>The blue mics are condensers. Why again is it bad to put a condenser
>in front of an amp?

There's nothing wrong with it, except that it's not apt to sound good. You'd
be better off with an SM-57.

>I'm thinking of putting some curtains or carpets or other fabric-y
>stuff on some of the walls. I'll post a recording of my drums later in
>the room.

Why do you want to do that? What goal do you have in mind?

>I'd like at least a stereo pair of mics, and a better vocal mic.

I would then recommend the 012s and an RE-20. These are all very, very
versatile mikes that you can use on nearly anything.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sean Conolly]

"gjsmo" > wrote in message
...
> Not sure if anyone cares, but here is a quick recording of my set,
> using a mixer into my built-in soundcard's line in. I was lazy, and it
> shows, with intermediate quick drop-outs (is there a name for this?)
>
> Tell me if you think this will sound okay. I'm thinking the room needs
> a bit of HF dampening. After all, it has glass windows on 3 sides.
> Maybe just curtains?
>
> http://fileape.com/dl/zyxc5ZCwF19ku7Ts

Sorry - they want my cell number (?) to download the audio. There's a
zillion free/cheap ways to host files, surely you can find one?

Sean

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 12:34*pm, gjsmo > wrote:
> The speakers are Bose Interaudio SA 200s.
> I like them, as I've said. I may be able to sprig for some monitors,
> if necessary.
> The blue mics are condensers. Why again is it bad to put a condenser
> in front of an amp?
> I'm thinking of putting some curtains or carpets or other fabric-y
> stuff on some of the walls. I'll post a recording of my drums later in
> the room.
> I'd like at least a stereo pair of mics, and a better vocal mic.

And... here's the recording. Sorry, I didn't want to hook up my
unreliable interface, so i use the built-in Line in on my motherboard.
Seems like it could use a bit of HF dampening...
http://fileape.com/dl/zyxc5ZCwF19ku7Ts

[Scott Dorsey]

gjsmo > wrote:
>Not sure if anyone cares, but here is a quick recording of my set,
>using a mixer into my built-in soundcard's line in. I was lazy, and it
>shows, with intermediate quick drop-outs (is there a name for this?)

I can't download this without entering a cellphone number. Even if I
had a cellphone number, I wouldn't give it out randomly to people on
the web.

>Tell me if you think this will sound okay. I'm thinking the room needs
>a bit of HF dampening. After all, it has glass windows on 3 sides.
>Maybe just curtains?

Rooms that have a little HF problem usually have big LF problems. Fixing
the HF problems is usually the easiest part of the thing. If you have
windows on three sides, you're apt to have big slapback issues too.

Play back a 20 Hz tone, walk around the room listening with one ear and
hear where it gets louder and where it gets softer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 12:34*pm, gjsmo > wrote:
> The speakers are Bose Interaudio SA 200s.
> I like them, as I've said. I may be able to sprig for some monitors,
> if necessary.
> The blue mics are condensers. Why again is it bad to put a condenser
> in front of an amp?
> I'm thinking of putting some curtains or carpets or other fabric-y
> stuff on some of the walls. I'll post a recording of my drums later in
> the room.
> I'd like at least a stereo pair of mics, and a better vocal mic.

Why can't I post.....
Link to drum recording done with on-board soundcard.
http://fileape.com/dl/zyxc5ZCwF19ku7Ts

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/24/2011 10:53 AM, gjsmo wrote:

> Err..... dang. Well, I can always buy a firewire PCI/PCIe card for my
> computer. I was just going to use the built-in, but I don't even know
> what it is. Bear in mind my problem is not connectivity issues, but
> unstable drivers. I really need a stable driver.

Why do you think the drivers are unstable? Because you're having
connection problems?

If "unstable" means that you get clicks and dropouts, that's nearly
always a configuration problem. Set the buffer size high enough so
that works. Find some way to deal with the latency if it's a problem.

> My band members are
> understandably impatient, since I tend to take more time than
> necessary. So I need it to be working for a few hours straight, and
> not have issues in the beginning.

Have you considered a dedicated hardware recorder? I'll bet there are
some of those obsolete Fostex, Akai, or Roland multitrack workstations
that you can get for a song. Mackie hard disk recorders are going for
under $1,000 these days. You won't believe how much time and hair you
can save with one. Record with that, then when you want to piddle when
the band isn't around, transfer the files to your computer.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated
without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it
can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John
Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio
stuff

[[email protected]]

Mike Rivers writes:
>> My band members are
>> understandably impatient, since I tend to take more time than
>> necessary. So I need it to be working for a few hours straight,
>>and not have issues in the beginning.
>Have you considered a dedicated hardware recorder? I'll bet there
>are some of those obsolete Fostex, Akai, or Roland multitrack
>workstations that you can get for a song. Mackie hard disk
>recorders are going for under $1,000 these days. You won't believe
>how much time and hair you can save with one. Record with that,
>then when you want to piddle when the band isn't around, transfer
>the files to your computer.

THEre's some merit to what Mike says here. THis way, you
record to the dedicated recorder when the band's all
present, and wanting to make music. Tweak and fiddle and
experiment when they're not around and you're looking for
something to do. AS he says, xfer tracks to the computer
when the rest of the guys aren't around, then do what you
wish to do in the box with your favorite software. There
are some real advantages to working that way, especially if
you're creating original music as it happens right now.
DOn't ruin the vibe with software and hardware troubles,
have it all lashed together with your dedicated recorder
ready to capture audio when they're all ready to play, keep
the good stuff by transferring it to your computer for later
work, etc.

since you guys are a young band it sounds like, enjoy making
music and no doubt have lives outside the band, such as
education, part-time gigs, etc. that's probably your
smartest option for the money right now. YOu don't need as
much audio hardware for the pc, you don't need to worry as
much about what'll work with what and still capture eight
tracks simultaneous, etc. USe a dedicated rig that *does*
capture 8 tracks reliably such as the Mackie or one of those
old stand alone workstations, have fun, and enjoy the
creative process. IF you find that even with your daw, in
your space that youv'e got something real killer and want to
take it to somebody with more chops, more control room and
more horsepower that gives you that option too.

IF you were trying to build to make a buck, by all means
then something with a full build out might be what you need
for the clients you want to bring in the door, but you and
your buddies want to make music, and capture the good stuff.
A stand alone workstation lets you maximize your time behind
your instrument and keeps you from pulling your hair out or
rolling on the floor making not funny noises cause you'd
really rather be recording than troubleshooting.

eSpecially with $2k to spend and wanting to maximize your
budget. Maybe you can put it all in mics, workstation, and
some monitoring.


Regards,




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[geoff]

"gjsmo" > wrote in message
...


Load it properly? So... I just need a loud source? I know more about
the computer side than the equipment side.

SM57s and some other dynamic mics prefer to work into a lower input
impedence than the common 1k5 to 2k5 of most modern mixers or audio
interfaces.

Putting a resistor of around 750 ohms between pins 2 and 3 of an XLR (inline
male-to-female adaptor is handy) will make the 57 sound less tizzy and
'unhinged'. Also seems to make the bass end 'firmer'.

geoff

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 3:13 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> gjsmo > wrote:
> >The speakers are Bose Interaudio SA 200s.
> >I like them, as I've said. I may be able to sprig for some monitors,
> >if necessary.
>
> You really need some real monitors. In fact, I'd suggest you spend at least
> half your budget on monitors. Once you get a good monitor chain, you'll
> start understanding why people are making some of the comments they are.
>
> >The blue mics are condensers. Why again is it bad to put a condenser
> >in front of an amp?
>
> There's nothing wrong with it, except that it's not apt to sound good. You'd
> be better off with an SM-57.
>
> >I'm thinking of putting some curtains or carpets or other fabric-y
> >stuff on some of the walls. I'll post a recording of my drums later in
> >the room.
>
> Why do you want to do that? What goal do you have in mind?
>
> >I'd like at least a stereo pair of mics, and a better vocal mic.
>
> I would then recommend the 012s and an RE-20. These are all very, very
> versatile mikes that you can use on nearly anything.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Eh... fine. Might as well trust you.
I mainly wanted to try a Blue Spark because they seem to be getting
good reviews, and they're only $200. Whatever. 012s will work for drum
overheads, I take it? What happened to the NT-1A - I thought it was
supposed to be a very good mic? Or are 012s just better?
And I need to see what the price limit is. I'm sure this really isn't
"whatever he wants" - after all, I could ask to buy Abbey Road. I will
look into some good monitors. Any good near-field monitors under
$1000?

On Jun 24, 4:38*pm, "Sean Conolly" > wrote:
> "gjsmo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Not sure if anyone cares, but here is a quick recording of my set,
> > using a mixer into my built-in soundcard's line in. I was lazy, and it
> > shows, with intermediate quick drop-outs (is there a name for this?)
>
> > Tell me if you think this will sound okay. I'm thinking the room needs
> > a bit of HF dampening. After all, it has glass windows on 3 sides.
> > Maybe just curtains?
>
> >http://fileape.com/dl/zyxc5ZCwF19ku7Ts
>
> Sorry - they want my cell number (?) to download the audio. There's a
> zillion free/cheap ways to host files, surely you can find one?
>
> Sean

Click "regular"? I use fileape without any problem, there's just a 15-
second wait. Sorry, I would upload it to my file server, but that's my
summer project :).
And sorry for the double post of the link. It didn't show up for
several hours, I assumed the post failed.

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 5:59*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> gjsmo > wrote:
> >Not sure if anyone cares, but here is a quick recording of my set,
> >using a mixer into my built-in soundcard's line in. I was lazy, and it
> >shows, with intermediate quick drop-outs (is there a name for this?)
>
> I can't download this without entering a cellphone number. *Even if I
> had a cellphone number, I wouldn't give it out randomly to people on
> the web.

If you can't download it by clicking "regular", I'll re-upload it
somewhere else. It's worked for me forever - only of the easiest
download sites. No code to enter, just a 15-second wait.

> >Tell me if you think this will sound okay. I'm thinking the room needs
> >a bit of HF dampening. After all, it has glass windows on 3 sides.
> >Maybe just curtains?
>
> Rooms that have a little HF problem usually have big LF problems. *Fixing
> the HF problems is usually the easiest part of the thing. *If you have
> windows on three sides, you're apt to have big slapback issues too.

It actually seems bass-lacking. It might have to do with the couch,
armchair, and just general stuff in corners.

> Play back a 20 Hz tone, walk around the room listening with one ear and
> hear where it gets louder and where it gets softer.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I'll do that. Tomorrow. It's 9:00PM for me.

On Jun 24, 6:10 pm, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On 6/24/2011 10:53 AM, gjsmo wrote:
>
> > Err..... dang. Well, I can always buy a firewire PCI/PCIe card for my
> > computer. I was just going to use the built-in, but I don't even know
> > what it is. Bear in mind my problem is not connectivity issues, but
> > unstable drivers. I really need a stable driver.
>
> Why do you think the drivers are unstable? Because you're having
> connection problems?

Because they have a tendency to crash my machine (completely stable,
by the way) when I even LOAD them.
Yeah. That's right. I can't load the drivers. It would take a while to
explain, but I can only load the drivers if they are already un-
installed COMPLETELY. The way I'm doing this now is by having a
separate hard drive with a Window 7 + Sonar X1 only install, and an
image of that with my plugins installed, but no driver yet. I restore
from that image every time I want to record.

> If "unstable" means that you get clicks and dropouts, that's nearly
> always a configuration problem. Set the buffer size high enough so
> that works. Find some way to deal with the latency if it's a problem.

I get plenty decent latency, no drop-outs (yet), and it has built-in
zero-latency monitoring - not needed, plenty acceptable latency even
with VST plugins running.

> > My band members are
> > understandably impatient, since I tend to take more time than
> > necessary. So I need it to be working for a few hours straight, and
> > not have issues in the beginning.
>
> Have you considered a dedicated hardware recorder? I'll bet there are
> some of those obsolete Fostex, Akai, or Roland multitrack workstations
> that you can get for a song. Mackie hard disk recorders are going for
> under $1,000 these days. You won't believe how much time and hair you
> can save with one. Record with that, then when you want to piddle when
> the band isn't around, transfer the files to your computer.
>
> --
> "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated
> without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it
> can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John
> Watkinson
>
> http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and interesting audio
> stuff

I've considered it. I seriously like the flexibility of a computer-
based DAW though. I realize that pretty much everything can be done on
a portable recorder by a good engineer, but I'm not a good engineer
(actually, I don't know yet - I've never gotten a complete recording
to deal with), so I like riding volumes with automation set, and lots
of plugins, and various easy ways out of doing real thinking. Sometime
I'll grow out of it.

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/24/2011 8:49 PM, gjsmo wrote:

> I mainly wanted to try a Blue Spark because they seem to be getting
> good reviews, and they're only $200.

That's as good a reason as any if you don't have other
recommendations, but the Spark is a new mic, it's a Blue
mic, and one of the things that Blue does well and
consistently is makes mics that don't quite sound like other
mics. That's something that's good to have on your shelf for
experimenting when you're looking for a little different
sound, but when learning how to record, it's better to start
out with mics that are more conventional.

> 012s will work for drum
> overheads, I take it? What happened to the NT-1A - I thought it was
> supposed to be a very good mic? Or are 012s just better?

They're different kinds of mics. The NT-1A might work quite
well five or so feet in front of the drum kit or way back as
a room mic, or up close to an amplifier or for vocals. The
012s will probably work better over a drum kit, on an
acoustic guitar or other string instruments, The differences
have more to do with the pickup pattern than anything else.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/24/2011 9:15 PM, gjsmo wrote:

> I can't load the drivers. It would take a while to
> explain, but I can only load the drivers if they are already un-
> installed COMPLETELY.

You mean it only works the first time you install the
driver, and you have to un-install and re-install it the
next time you want to use the interface? Sounds to me like
it's time for a call to Tech Support. That's not typical
behavior.

>> Have you considered a dedicated hardware recorder?

> I've considered it. I seriously like the flexibility of a computer-
> based DAW though. I realize that pretty much everything can be done on
> a portable recorder by a good engineer, but I'm not a good engineer
> (actually, I don't know yet - I've never gotten a complete recording
> to deal with), so I like riding volumes with automation set, and lots
> of plugins, and various easy ways out of doing real thinking. Sometime
> I'll grow out of it.

You can do that. Like I said, record with the recorder, load
the files into the computer, and compute your audio to your
heart's content. I neglected to mention that along with the
recorder, you'll need a mixer. That will give you plenty of
mic preamps and a way to monitor while you're recording.
What you learn by working that way is going to get you
better prepared for when you're ready to go completely "in
the box." You'll wonder why that isn't as easy as working
with hardware.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[PStamler]

On Jun 24, 3:15*am, "geoff" > wrote:

> > I've heard the 57s are "fizzy" - I'm planning on using it as a snare
> > mic, but what else does it lend itself to? That doesn't seem like a
> > particularly good adjective, or is it just me?
>
> No. *Load it properly and the fizz might disappear - search the article in
> Recording magasine.

The OP talked about Beta 57A mics; unlike SM57s, they don't change
much with different loads.

Peace,
Paul

[gjsmo]

On Jun 24, 11:31*pm, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On 6/24/2011 9:15 PM, gjsmo wrote:
>
> > I can't load the drivers. It would take a while to
> > explain, but I can only load the drivers if they are already un-
> > installed COMPLETELY.
>
> You mean it only works the first time you install the
> driver, and you have to un-install and re-install it the
> next time you want to use the interface? *Sounds to me like
> it's time for a call to Tech Support. That's not typical
> behavior.

Tried calling tech. Didn't help much.
And un-installing and re-installing ISN'T enough. Not always.
Sometimes, the driver is still on the system. Literally the only way
to load it is to turn on the computer, install it onto a system
without any driver at all, and start Sonar. I can't turn off the
computer, or unload Sonar - after that, I can't use the interface at
all. I have to either find a way to completely purge the drivers, or
do it with hard-drive images.

> >> Have you considered a dedicated hardware recorder?
> > I've considered it. I seriously like the flexibility of a computer-
> > based DAW though. I realize that pretty much everything can be done on
> > a portable recorder by a good engineer, but I'm not a good engineer
> > (actually, I don't know yet - I've never gotten a complete recording
> > to deal with), so I like riding volumes with automation set, and lots
> > of plugins, and various easy ways out of doing real thinking. Sometime
> > I'll grow out of it.
>
> You can do that. Like I said, record with the recorder, load
> the files into the computer, and compute your audio to your
> heart's content. I neglected to mention that along with the
> recorder, you'll need a mixer. That will give you plenty of
> mic preamps and a way to monitor while you're recording.
> What you learn by working that way is going to get you
> better prepared for when you're ready to go completely "in
> the box." You'll wonder why that isn't as easy as working
> with hardware.
>
> --
> "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
> operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
> it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
> of audio." - John Watkinson
>
> http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
> interesting audio stuff

I realize that. But my band and I love plugins, and I really like
being able to record "dry" and fiddle around later. I realize I could
do this with inserts and HW effects, but VST is just SO flexible.
Still, I'll consider it. I also need a price limit to work with, so...

[Scott Dorsey]

gjsmo > wrote:
>
>Eh... fine. Might as well trust you.
>I mainly wanted to try a Blue Spark because they seem to be getting
>good reviews, and they're only $200. Whatever. 012s will work for drum
>overheads, I take it? What happened to the NT-1A - I thought it was
>supposed to be a very good mic? Or are 012s just better?

The 012 is a more neutral microphone, AND you can later get different
capsules with different patterns.

This makes it a more versatile mike... it is neutral enough that you
can throw it up on just about anything. It is clean off-axis and will
accurately reproduce the room.

The Spark isn't a bad mike, but it's a much less versatile mike. If
you are only buying three mikes, you want the three most versatile
mikes you can get.

The NT-1A is also not bad for the price, but I think you'd be better off
with a few really good mikes than a bunch of cheapies.

>And I need to see what the price limit is. I'm sure this really isn't
>"whatever he wants" - after all, I could ask to buy Abbey Road. I will
>look into some good monitors. Any good near-field monitors under
>$1000?

Look at the original Mackie HR825s. They sell used for fairly cheap.
Likewise the Tannoy Reveals. Any of the Tannoy dual coincident monitors
are really top notch and they all sell used on ebay for not all that
much. If you get passive ones you will need to budget for an amp but
depending on your luck this could be a good deal. In a pinch if you
are really tight, the NHT Super One and the Paradigm Mini Mk II are
workable cheap monitors (though they will need an amp). Both discontinued,
both sold cheap since they are not fashionable.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2011-06-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
>The Spark isn't a bad mike, but it's a much less versatile mike. If
>you are only buying three mikes, you want the three most versatile
>mikes you can get.
>The NT-1A is also not bad for the price, but I think you'd be
>better off with a few really good mikes than a bunch of cheapies.


I'm with Scott here. Make sure an re20 is one of them,
that's a darned good versatile microphone.

>Look at the original Mackie HR825s. They sell used for fairly
>cheap. Likewise the Tannoy Reveals. Any of the Tannoy dual
>coincident monitors are really top notch and they all sell used on
>ebay for not all that much. If you get passive ones you will need
>to budget for an amp but depending on your luck this could be a
>good deal. In a pinch if you are really tight, the NHT Super One
>and the Paradigm Mini Mk II are workable cheap monitors (though
>they will need an amp). Both discontinued, both sold cheap since
>they are not fashionable.


Would agree. I like the Tanno pbm 6.5 too. Did you mean
the hr824 though Scott? IF so can agree. IF that wasn't a
finger slip and you did mean the 825 I've never heard those
so can't comment.
I do not like the Alesis monitors however, but the Mackies
are decent for the price.

Room I used to work in occasionally had the small Alesis
nfm's and the Mackies, I preferred the Mackies. Another
room that I used more often back in those days had the usual
Yamahas, which I"d listen to occasionally to check things
out since he didn't have awfultone cubes, also the Tannoy
6.5's and a pair of soffit mount Yureis for the big ones. I
really liked those, still do.



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, > wrote:
>Would agree. I like the Tanno pbm 6.5 too. Did you mean
>the hr824 though Scott? IF so can agree. IF that wasn't a
>finger slip and you did mean the 825 I've never heard those
>so can't comment.

I meant the HR824.

>I do not like the Alesis monitors however, but the Mackies
>are decent for the price.

I have not liked the Alesis monitors I have heard, but I haven't heard
all of them.

The later Mackies aren't as clean as the HR824.

The HR824 currently gets something of a bad rap in internet forums, but
it's not a bad sounding monitor and it's still a good deal for the money.
You can mix on it and not be beating your head against a wall.

>Room I used to work in occasionally had the small Alesis
>nfm's and the Mackies, I preferred the Mackies. Another
>room that I used more often back in those days had the usual
>Yamahas, which I"d listen to occasionally to check things
>out since he didn't have awfultone cubes, also the Tannoy
>6.5's and a pair of soffit mount Yureis for the big ones. I
>really liked those, still do.

The Ureis are just too forward for my taste, but I can see people
liking them. And you can mix on them without screaming.

I learned to mix on Altec 604s. You could make dramatic EQ changes
and not hear any difference on the monitors. They were just horrible.
Urei took that basic design and make something out of them that actually
sounded okay.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2011-06-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
>In article >, <0junk4me@bellsouth.
>>net> wrote: Would agree. I like the Tanno pbm 6.5 too. Did you
>>mean the hr824 though Scott? IF so can agree. IF that wasn't a
>>finger slip and you did mean the 825 I've never heard those
>>so can't comment.
>I meant the HR824.

I thought you did. ONe of my tests of a monitor is if I can
actually get an idea what I"m doing when I"m mixing, and
that they don't fatigue my ears too bad.

>>I do not like the Alesis monitors however, but the Mackies
>>are decent for the price.
>I have not liked the Alesis monitors I have heard, but I haven't
>heard all of them.

I"m talking the MOnitor 1's and monitor 2's, didn't like
either. NEver could bring myself to even listen to anything
else of theirs. THe big Alesis gave me the same feeling of
fatigue I get listening to ns10's and if I've gotta put up
with the fatigue I"d just as soon listen to the Yammies, I
know waht they do, and what the brand of awful translates to
in the rest of the world <g>.

>The later Mackies aren't as clean as the HR824.
>The HR824 currently gets something of a bad rap in internet forums,
>but it's not a bad sounding monitor and it's still a good deal for
>the money. You can mix on it and not be beating your head against a
>wall.

THat's always prime consideration for me with a monitor.
IT's hard to quantify but the Mackie 824's are a bit fuller
and richer sounding than the yamahas imho, which is part of
the lack of the fatigue fctor I think.

>>Room I used to work in occasionally had the small Alesis
>>nfm's and the Mackies, I preferred the Mackies. Another
>>room that I used more often back in those days had the usual
>>Yamahas, which I"d listen to occasionally to check things
>>out since he didn't have awfultone cubes, also the Tannoy
>>6.5's and a pair of soffit mount Yureis for the big ones. I
>>really liked those, still do.
>The Ureis are just too forward for my taste, but I can see people
>liking them. And you can mix on them without screaming.
>I learned to mix on Altec 604s. You could make dramatic EQ changes
>and not hear any difference on the monitors. They were just
>horrible. Urei took that basic design and make something out of
>them that actually sounded okay.

DOn't recall the Altecs, but the Yureis had a nice full
sound, I liked tracking on them. I try to do everything I
can with mic positioning anyway and avoid utilizing eq as
much as possible, and the Yureis let me hear problems before
they became problems at the mixing stage. My remote truck
currently has a pair of the Yamahas to go on the meter
bridge of the console, and JBL 4411's in doghouses. I"d
rather listen long-term to the jbl's, but if I had to
replace them I"d probably look for Tannoy 6.5's or something
similar, about the same size if I"m recalling correctly.
Been out in the heat doing amateur radio field day all day
<g>.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com