Disparity in volume level between Tuner Section and all therest(CD/mp3/phono/Tape) in mobile and home stereo gear

[ChrisCoaster]

It's the same wherever I go. In the car, I switch from my mp3 jack
or
CD to a FM station and instinctively I have to turn the volume down
by
at least 1/3rd.

At home, switching from a record, CD or tape to the radio - gotta
crank that volume down! Ditto at the beach on my boombox.


Now folks I don't need a lecture on dyamic compression/sonic
maximizers and all the other crap radio stations reem their music
through. I can even duplicate the effect quite faithfully(or
hideously for you audiophiles reading this) with the rudimentary
compressor in Audacity.


What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any compression
or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner sections of the
aformentioned audio equipment above - especially in consumer
electronics mfgd more recently?


Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is
solely to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from
AM/FM > a CD or mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from
CD/
mp3/phono > AM/FM.


1. Does the tuner section on consumer stereo equipment/portables/auto
sound incorporate some compression/limiting circuitry? 2. Is the
tuner input level set intentionally louder than the line inputs(CD,
aux/mp3, etc)? 3. Or, is it a combination of 1 and 2, on top of
compression/other processing employed by the radio stations?


much appreeesh,


-ChrisCoaster :)

[Scott Dorsey]

ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>Now folks I don't need a lecture on dyamic compression/sonic
>maximizers and all the other crap radio stations reem their music
>through. I can even duplicate the effect quite faithfully(or
>hideously for you audiophiles reading this) with the rudimentary
>compressor in Audacity.

But that's basically why you see that effect.

>What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any compression
>or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner sections of the
>aformentioned audio equipment above - especially in consumer
>electronics mfgd more recently?

Nope. It would sure be nice if there WAS, though. It would mean stations
would be slightly less encouraged to squash everything aggressively.
And overall it wouldn't make any difference in the end sound for the
stations that (like all of them) have no dynamics to begin with.

>1. Does the tuner section on consumer stereo equipment/portables/auto
>sound incorporate some compression/limiting circuitry?

No.

>2. Is the
>tuner input level set intentionally louder than the line inputs(CD,
>aux/mp3, etc)?

Depends what reference level you are talking about for aux input. The
datasheet for the receiver will tell you how much output you get at the
tape outputs for 100% modulation on FM. That's the _peak_ level, it
should be considerably above the reference level on the inputs.

What is the reference level on the inputs? God only knows, but that
should be in the manual too.

>3. Or, is it a combination of 1 and 2, on top of
>compression/other processing employed by the radio stations?

It's almost all the massive compression and the fact that the baseline
gains are set with normal audio waveforms in mind rather than square waves.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

> What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any
> compression or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner
> sections of the aformentioned audio equipment above --
> especially in consumer electronics mfgd more recently?

When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the FCC to
require future tuners to include fairly substantial compression. The
motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible in the
presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.

It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you don't
know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The compression was
eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip, where it was completely
invisible.

[ChrisCoaster]

On Jun 12, 6:26*am, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote:

>
> When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the FCC to
> require future tuners to include fairly substantial compression. The
> motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible in the
> presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.
>
> It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you don't
> know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The compression was
> eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip, where it was completely
> invisible.
______________________
WS: So they knew about this pretty early on, the smart lil'
devils. :)

So if that's the case, pretty much there's nothing we can do about
whatever level of compression exists in our tuners(and not just in
cheap ones either!). Sad. The best we can do is fight compression at
the source - the recorded word or song from the record labels. And I
think overall the S/N ratio and FR of professional broadcast gear has
improved enough in the last 30 years that perhaps stations could
conceivably reverse at least *some* of the compression and other
processing that they have slowly acclimated us to over that time, and
still retain their broadcast radius. But of course it's about $$, not
sounding good, is it? :(

I just wish there was a way to actually go inside and "trim down" -
like with the trim on a mixing console, the pot that sends tuner sound
to the processing/amplifier stage of our receivers and mobile
stereos. I guess that's why audiophile setups of years ago included a
Pre-amplifier, so that that could be done. No more adjusting the
volume knob between changing sources!

-CC

[Arny Krueger]

"ChrisCoaster" > wrote in message
news:4e691e28-2e97-419e-b694-8

> Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is
> solely to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from
> AM/FM > a CD or mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from
> CD/ mp3/phono > AM/FM.

You get to be wrong.

> 1. Does the tuner section on consumer stereo equipment/portables/auto
> sound incorporate some compression/limiting circuitry?

No.

2. Is the tuner input level set intentionally louder than the line
inputs(CD,
> aux/mp3, etc)? 3. Or, is it a combination of 1 and 2, on top of
> compression/other processing employed by the radio stations?

None of the above.

Record some song you have on CD off of any FM station. Look at it with DAW
software - ven Audacity will do. If the song wasn't hypercompressed on the
CD, there will be a *huge* visible difference.

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>> What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any
>> compression or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner
>> sections of the aformentioned audio equipment above --
>> especially in consumer electronics mfgd more recently?
>
> When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the FCC to
> require future tuners to include fairly substantial compression. The
> motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible in
> the
> presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.
>
> It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you
> don't
> know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The compression was
> eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip, where it was completely
> invisible.

A joke, I hope.

This claim is grotesquely false. The counterevidence is pretty easy to
collect if you actually read schematics accurately, or if you have your own
FM signal generator and test any number of FM radios.

Back in the old days there were a few FM stations that ran with zero
compression. There are a few that at least still use minimal compression.
You can hear the difference pretty clearly.

[Arny Krueger]

"ChrisCoaster" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 12, 6:26 am, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote:

>
> When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the FCC to
> require future tuners to include fairly substantial compression. The
> motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible in
> the
> presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.
>
> It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you
> don't
> know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The compression was
> eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip, where it was completely
> invisible.
______________________

> WS: So they knew about this pretty early on, the smart lil'
> devils. :)

Tain't no such thing.

> So if that's the case, pretty much there's nothing we can do about
> whatever level of compression exists in our tuners(and not just in
> heap ones either!).

The reason why there's nothing we can do is because virtually all of the FM
stations use compression.

> Sad.

Sad that you'd ignore Scott and I who actually know what we're talking
about.

Just goes to show again that people will believe lies that agree with their
prejudices rather than truth that disagrees with it.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the FCC to
>require future tuners to include fairly substantial compression. The
>motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible in the
>presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.

Huh?

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

FM AGC isn't compression and doesn't affect volume levels.

And audio compression at the receiver end won't keep stations audible in
in the presence of ambient noise... it will increase the noise just as much
as the signal.

>It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you don't
>know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The compression was
>eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip, where it was completely
>invisible.

I am skeptical.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On 6/11/2011 11:41 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

> What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any compression
> or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner sections of the
> aformentioned audio equipment above - especially in consumer
> electronics mfgd more recently?

I've had a rental car or two that had settings that were
apparently compression, but it's been a while since I've run
across that. Maybe it's that I'm just renting cheaper cars
these days, the rental companies aren't buying cards with
"premium" sound systems, or they just gave up since most FM
stations are highly limited, as are satellite broadcasts
(I've had a couple of rentals with XM radio) and most people
don't bring CDs to play in their rental cars.

I, too, find that I have to crank the volume way up when I
use my MP3 player in a car, including my own car. But since
I just play radio programs that I've recorded, and peak
levels are usually not much more than -10 dBFS, I'm not
surprised that the audio level is low compared to commercial
broadcast or commercial CDs.

Live with it, and be thankful that radios still have a
volume control. It seems that all to many people forget that
you CAN turn it up.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[William Sommerwerck]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
> ...

>>> What I would like to know is if anyone here knows if any
>>> compression or limiting exists in the circuits of the Tuner
>>> sections of the aformentioned audio equipment above --
>>> especially in consumer electronics mfgd more recently?

>> When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed
>> the FCC to require future tuners to include fairly substantial
compression.
>> The motivation was to bring up the overall level to keep stations audible
in
>> the presence of ambient noise -- particularly during peak drive hours.

>> It turned out this compression could be effected fairly simply. If you
>> don't know where to look in the schematic, you won't see it. The
>> compression was eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip,
>> where it was completely invisible.

> A joke, I hope.
> This claim is grotesquely false.

Of course it is. You should know by now that I am neither technically
deficient, nor lacking a sense of humor.

Several years ago, KING FM -- a classical station -- used heavy compression,
and not just during peak-drive hours. It was extremely audible, and
apparently so many people complained that KING eventually dropped it. KING
still seems to be using some compression, but it's only (vaguely) audible
during louder passages -- perhaps OverEasy.

With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page article
in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real person than P D Q
Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten away with a Wikipedia
article.

If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching" "If
I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

> I am skeptical.

As well you should be. See the other posts.

I said "ambient noise" because I was referring to noise /other/ than
background hiss in the radio signal.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>
>> I am skeptical.
>
>As well you should be. See the other posts.
>
>I said "ambient noise" because I was referring to noise /other/ than
>background hiss in the radio signal.

Some car radios (including Blaupunks going back to the eighties) have
in fact had a compression button for just that purpose. Not useful under
normal listening circumstances, but a fine thing for listening to classical
music in the car.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

>> I said "ambient noise" because I was referring to noise /other/ than
>> background hiss in the radio signal.

> Some car radios (including Blaupunks going back to the eighties) have
> in fact had a compression button for just that purpose. Not useful under
> normal listening circumstances, but a fine thing for listening to
classical
> music in the car.

As far as I know, the radio in my Focus does not have such a feature. But I
have to crank the volume way up before it gets as loud as I'd like. This
might be simply that the volume steps are small.

[[email protected]]

On 2011-06-12 (ScottDorsey) said:
>>When stereo FM was introduced in 1961, radio stations bribed the
>>FCC to require future tuners to include fairly substantial
>>compression. The motivation was to bring up the overall level to
>>keep stations audible in the presence of ambient noise --
>particularly during peak drive hours.
>Huh?
>I'm not sure what you're talking about.

NEither is he obviously. IS that really William?

>FM AGC isn't compression and doesn't affect volume levels.
Again agreed, somebody misunderstands what agc does and why
it's built into receivers.

<snip>
>>The compression was eventually moved into the stereo decoder chip,
>>where it was completely invisible.
>I am skeptical.

I want some of what he's having.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:41:51 -0400, ChrisCoaster wrote
(in article
>):

> Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is solely
> to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from AM/FM > a CD or

> mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from CD/ mp3/phono > AM/FM.

It is. I spent a good portion of my 17 years in radio to make sure it's that
way.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:

> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page article
> in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real person than P D Q
> Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten away with a Wikipedia
> article.

Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.

> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.

Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
have managed it that well.

I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
Pigeons" stand above the other songs.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> William Sommerwerck > wrote:

>> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
>> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real person
>> than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten away
>> with a Wikipedia article.

> Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
> "real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.

>> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
>> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.

> Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
> who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
> catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
> have managed it that well.

> I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
> Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
> about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
> recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
> stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
> Pigeons" stand above the other songs.

I did more checking (before I read your e-mail). "Seashores of Old Mexico"
seemed like a ludicrous album title -- but, lo and behold, it actually
exists, and has "If I Could Only Fly" on it.

It would seem I'm wrong -- there really was a Blaze Foley (nee, Michael
David Fuller). That doesn't change the fact that his biography reads like a
spoof. (Not to mention the beard.) Perhaps Mr Fuller had my sense of warped
humor, and his life imitated his art.

As for the lyrics to "If I Could Only Fly"... I invite readers to judge for
themselves. However, a song that ends with "If I could only fly... If you
could only fly... If we could only fly... there'd be no lonely nights."
suggests that the author is not aware of Greyhound buses.

"If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up of bad C&W.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:25:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>
>> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page article
>> in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real person than P D Q
>> Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten away with a Wikipedia
>> article.
>
>Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
>"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
>
>> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
>> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
>
>Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
>who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
>catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
>have managed it that well.
>
>I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
>Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
>about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
>recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
>stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
>Pigeons" stand above the other songs.

Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check out Dave
Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.

d

[MarkK]

>
> Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is
> solely to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from
> AM/FM > a CD or mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from
> CD/
> mp3/phono > AM/FM.
>
>
>

believe it, because that's a good part of what it is...

but don't worry, the way most popular music CDs are being produced now,
the "problem" is going away

Mark

[ChrisCoaster]

On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, "MarkK" > wrote:
> > Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is
> > solely to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from
> > AM/FM > a CD or mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from
> > CD/
> > mp3/phono > AM/FM.
>
> believe it, because that's a good part of *what it is...
>
> but don't worry, the way most popular *music CDs are being produced now,
> the "problem" is going away
>
> Mark
_________________
I've convinced myself of this using Audacity to repeatedly compress
the crap out of some WAV files.

First, I shelve off below 50Hz and then emphasize everything above
6kHz.

Next, I amplify the track to -2 acc to Audacity's amplify plugin.

Then, I perform successive passes of the basic compressor at -50, -25,
-12, and -6dB, performing appropriate hard limiter passes to eliminate
any spikes or other artifacts of the compression. I use no more than
1.5:1 > 2:0:1 compression ratio at each level. After each pass, I
reamplify the piece to -2dB.

Finally, I deemempasize the 6kHz & up region roughly by the amount I
cut it before performing the compression sweeps.

Using mp3Gain to check my finished level, I amplify in Audacity until
mp3Gain reads between 92 and 93dB for the compressed version of the
track(the mp3s I use on my playlist and on my mp3 player are all
mp3gained to between 90>91dB).

Voila! Horrible sounding FM radio music that is MUCH "louder" than
the original rips!

LOL

-CC

[ChrisCoaster]

On Jun 12, 12:11*pm, "MarkK" > wrote:
> > Because I really don't believe that radio stations' own processing is
> > solely to blame for my having to crank UP the volume when going from
> > AM/FM > a CD or mp3 or cranking DOWN the volume after switchng from
> > CD/
> > mp3/phono > AM/FM.
>
> believe it, because that's a good part of *what it is...
>
> but don't worry, the way most popular *music CDs are being produced now,
> the "problem" is going away
>
> Mark
_________________
I've convinced myself of this using Audacity to repeatedly compress
the crap out of some WAV files.

First, I shelve off below 50Hz and then emphasize everything above
6kHz.


Next, I amplify the track to -2 acc to Audacity's amplify plugin.


Then, I perform successive passes of the basic compressor at -50,
-25,
-12, and -6dB, performing appropriate hard limiter passes to
eliminate
any spikes or other artifacts of the compression. I use no more than
1.5:1 > 2:0:1 compression ratio at each level. After each pass, I
reamplify the piece to -2dB.


Finally, I deemempasize the 6kHz & up region roughly by the amount I
cut it before performing the compression sweeps.

Next, I export it as a 320Kmp3, and check the level in mp3Gain. I'm
seeing levels ABOVE 100dB with all that compression - HO - LEE - S~~~!

Using mp3Gain to check my finished level, I DE-amplify in Audacity
until
mp3Gain reads between 92 and 93dB for the compressed version of the
track(the mp3s I use on my playlist and on my mp3 player are all
mp3gained to between 90>91dB).


Voila! Horrible sounding FM radio music that is MUCH "louder" than
the original rips!

LOL

-CC

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:

> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
> > William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>
> >> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
> >> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real person
> >> than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten away
> >> with a Wikipedia article.
>
> > Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
> > "real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
>
> >> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
> >> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
>
> > Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
> > who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
> > catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
> > have managed it that well.
>
> > I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
> > Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
> > about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
> > recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
> > stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
> > Pigeons" stand above the other songs.
>
> I did more checking (before I read your e-mail). "Seashores of Old Mexico"
> seemed like a ludicrous album title -- but, lo and behold, it actually
> exists, and has "If I Could Only Fly" on it.
>
> It would seem I'm wrong -- there really was a Blaze Foley (nee, Michael
> David Fuller).

http://www.blazefoleymovie.com/

> That doesn't change the fact that his biography reads like a
> spoof. (Not to mention the beard.) Perhaps Mr Fuller had my sense of warped
> humor, and his life imitated his art.

He lacked your detachment; his life was his art, and vice versa. I never
met him, and I'm prrety sure he was as big a mess as some others I have
met. While I'm not a big fan of his, I acknowledge the excellence of
some of his work. I'm not alone there. Haggard, Earl, Morlix (but wait,
is that his _real_ name???), etc.

> As for the lyrics to "If I Could Only Fly"... I invite readers to judge for
> themselves. However, a song that ends with "If I could only fly... If you
> could only fly... If we could only fly... there'd be no lonely nights."
> suggests that the author is not aware of Greyhound buses.

Yeah, cool, but was that lady's name _really_ "Mona Lisa"?

Driving through Austin traffic day before yesterday Fletcher switched to
KMFA, the 'classical" music station. We were treated to one set of
cliches after another.

> "If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up of bad C&W.

No, it is not, and therein lies the rub between a critic's detachment
and an artist's life.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Don Pearce > wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:25:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
> wrote:
>
> >William Sommerwerck > wrote:
> >
> >> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
> >> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real
> >> person than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten
> >> away with a Wikipedia article.
> >
> >Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
> >"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
> >
> >> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
> >> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
> >
> >Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
> >who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
> >catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
> >have managed it that well.
> >
> >I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
> >Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
> >about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
> >recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
> >stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
> >Pigeons" stand above the other songs.
>
> Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check out Dave
> Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.

I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country. There is
plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able to tell it from that
other stuff.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:37:26 -0500, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:25:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>> >
>> >> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
>> >> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real
>> >> person than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten
>> >> away with a Wikipedia article.
>> >
>> >Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
>> >"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
>> >
>> >> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
>> >> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
>> >
>> >Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
>> >who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
>> >catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
>> >have managed it that well.
>> >
>> >I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
>> >Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
>> >about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
>> >recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
>> >stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
>> >Pigeons" stand above the other songs.
>>
>> Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check out Dave
>> Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.
>
>I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country. There is
>plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able to tell it from that
>other stuff.

Have a listen anyway. Can't hurt.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 16:39:46 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:37:26 -0500, (hank alrich)
>wrote:
>
>>Don Pearce > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:25:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
>>> >> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real
>>> >> person than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten
>>> >> away with a Wikipedia article.
>>> >
>>> >Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
>>> >"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
>>> >
>>> >> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
>>> >> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
>>> >
>>> >Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
>>> >who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
>>> >catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
>>> >have managed it that well.
>>> >
>>> >I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
>>> >Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
>>> >about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
>>> >recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
>>> >stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
>>> >Pigeons" stand above the other songs.
>>>
>>> Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check out Dave
>>> Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.
>>
>>I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country. There is
>>plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able to tell it from that
>>other stuff.
>
>Have a listen anyway. Can't hurt.
>
>d

Try this for starters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQp0xH9l_o

d

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...

> I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country.
> There is plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able
> to tell it from that other stuff.

You and Duke Ellington. <grin>

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...

> Driving through Austin traffic day before yesterday Fletcher
> switched to KMFA, the "classical" music station. We were
> treated to one set of cliches after another.

I suppose an "involved" person's art is a "detached" person's cliché.

As a classical listener, I'm aware that a lot of Baroque music (and some
Classical) uses devices (trills, cadences) that, to non-classical listeners,
sound like clichés. I suppose they are.

But classical listeners are generally aware of this, and Peter Schickele has
mercilessly skewered them (eg, "Iphigenia in Brooklyn"). How do C&W
listeners respond to the constantly repeated elements of C&W?


>> "If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up
>> of bad C&W.

> No, it is not, and therein lies the rub between a critic's detachment
> and an artist's life.

I've just started a book on Tex-Mex cooking. "Tex-Mex" has long been a
derogatory term, suggesting that Americanized Mexican cooking is a
*******ization of "legitimate" Mexican cuisine, created solely to appeal to
vulgar American "taste".

The author quotes someone as saying that whatever comes from the heart is
legitimate, and not worthy of such criticism. The question then becomes
whether Tex-Mex food (which I love) really does come "from the heart", or
was created simply to make dishes palatable that were unpalatable to people
from another culture.

Blaze Foley (the name is more than a little tongue-in-cheek) had a great
sense of humor. I cannot imagine him writing "If I Could Only Fly" without
being consciously aware that it was a string-of-consciousness melding of
familiar themes.

PS: Thank you for your intelligent and insightful responses to my remarks.
They are much appreciated.

[hank alrich]

Don Pearce > wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:37:26 -0500, (hank alrich)
> wrote:
>
> >Don Pearce > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:25:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >William Sommerwerck > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> With respect to recognizing a put-on... See Robert Baird's last-page
> >> >> article in the July "Stereophile". "Blaze Foley" is no more a real
> >> >> person than P D Q Bach or Nigel Tufnel. Yet his creators have gotten
> >> >> away with a Wikipedia article.
> >> >
> >> >Blaze Foley was self-created, went by that handle, and is/was just as
> >> >"real" as Marilyn Monroe or Rock Hudson or Bob Dylan.
> >> >
> >> >> If you don't believe me... Listen to the lyrics of the "heart-wrenching"
> >> >> "If I Could Only Fly". They're nothing but a string of C&W clichés.
> >> >
> >> >Plenty of people think that's a very fine song, including Merle Haggard,
> >> >who knows a thing or two million about country and western music. The
> >> >catch is that there are many ways to string together such lines and few
> >> >have managed it that well.
> >> >
> >> >I'm in Austin TX right now and lots of folks are over the top about
> >> >Blaze, especially following Gurf Morlix's tribute album and the film
> >> >about Blaze. I never heard him live, never met him, and the only
> >> >recording I have of him is the Live at the Outhouse CD. That's a fairly
> >> >stinky recording, in my view, but "If I Could Only Fly" and "Clay
> >> >Pigeons" stand above the other songs.
> >>
> >> Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check out Dave
> >> Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.
> >
> >I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country. There is
> >plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able to tell it from that
> >other stuff.
>
> Have a listen anyway. Can't hurt.
>
> d

Oh, yeah, good stuff. Wasn't being at all dismissive. Here in the little
pond that is the US, one has to know what to look for and where to find
it to avoid Gnarshvillian Poopster Music presently maskeraiding as
"country". "Look right there, boy! Ain't _that_ some glitter on the
turd?!?"

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:

> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country.
> > There is plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able
> > to tell it from that other stuff.
>
> You and Duke Ellington. <grin>

<!>

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
<snip>
>
> "If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up of bad C&W.
>
>

Or not.

--
Les Cargill

[ChrisCoaster]

On Jun 12, 2:43*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> William Sommerwerck > wrote:
> > "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > I don't need to go much of anywhere to hear good country.
> > > There is plenty of it hereabouts. All one need do is be able
> > > to tell it from that other stuff.
>
> > You and Duke Ellington. <grin>
>
> <!>
>
> --
> shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAchttp://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
_______________________
Alright, well thanks for the early discussion of the topic of this
thread. At least we all know what the reason is - why radio sounds
"louder" than the other inputs. And now, back to the country music
thread!

-CC

[[email protected]]

On 2011-06-12 (hankalrich) said:
<big snip>

>> >> Wanna hear good country? You need to come to England. Check
>>out Dave >> Hartley on Youtube for some fine pedal steel.

A friend of mine who has a broadband connection stumbled
across that artist the other day and played it for me while
I was visiting him. INdeed.

>Oh, yeah, good stuff. Wasn't being at all dismissive. Here in the
>little pond that is the US, one has to know what to look for and
>where to find it to avoid Gnarshvillian Poopster Music presently
>maskeraiding as "country". "Look right there, boy! Ain't _that_
>some glitter on the turd?!?"

THIs is true. I often find the best country tells me a
story and does it well.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:

> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Driving through Austin traffic day before yesterday Fletcher
> > switched to KMFA, the "classical" music station. We were
> > treated to one set of cliches after another.
>
> I suppose an "involved" person's art is a "detached" person's cliché.
>
> As a classical listener, I'm aware that a lot of Baroque music (and some
> Classical) uses devices (trills, cadences) that, to non-classical listeners,
> sound like clichés. I suppose they are.
>
> But classical listeners are generally aware of this, and Peter Schickele has
> mercilessly skewered them (eg, "Iphigenia in Brooklyn"). How do C&W
> listeners respond to the constantly repeated elements of C&W?
>
>
> >> "If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up
> >> of bad C&W.
>
> > No, it is not, and therein lies the rub between a critic's detachment
> > and an artist's life.
>
> I've just started a book on Tex-Mex cooking. "Tex-Mex" has long been a
> derogatory term, suggesting that Americanized Mexican cooking is a
> *******ization of "legitimate" Mexican cuisine, created solely to appeal to
> vulgar American "taste".
>
> The author quotes someone as saying that whatever comes from the heart is
> legitimate, and not worthy of such criticism. The question then becomes
> whether Tex-Mex food (which I love) really does come "from the heart", or
> was created simply to make dishes palatable that were unpalatable to people
> from another culture.
>
> Blaze Foley (the name is more than a little tongue-in-cheek) had a great
> sense of humor. I cannot imagine him writing "If I Could Only Fly" without
> being consciously aware that it was a string-of-consciousness melding of
> familiar themes.
>
> PS: Thank you for your intelligent and insightful responses to my remarks.
> They are much appreciated.

William, you're welcome. Coming back to this belatedly, and posting
tonight from Austin TX, I can assure you that in some realms "Tex Mex"
is not a derogatory term at all. <g>

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...

>> Blaze Foley (the name is more than a little tongue-in-cheek) had a great
>> sense of humor. I cannot imagine him writing "If I Could Only Fly"
without
>> being consciously aware that it was a string-of-consciousness melding of
>> familiar themes.

>> PS: Thank you for your intelligent and insightful responses to my
remarks.
>> They are much appreciated.

> William, you're welcome. Coming back to this belatedly, and posting
> tonight from Austin TX, I can assure you that in some realms "Tex Mex"
> is not a derogatory term at all. <g>

I love the stuff. Where else does one get spicy comfort food?

Many years ago, when I used to visit my (now-passed) best friend in northern
Virginia, we'd go out to "Tippy's Taco" and gorge on Tex-Mex. (He called
Ticky-Tacky Taco.) We'd bring back a bag of chips and a tub of queso, and
complete the meal.

http://eattippystaco.com/home

In case it didn't get mentioned... Blaze Foley was a real person, and "If I
Could Only Fly" was not intended to be a parody of C&W. That doesn't keep it
from being one (qv, Leonard Bernstein's remark that "No one ever sets out to
write insincere music").

[Mike Rivers]

On 10/1/2011 11:56 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

> Many years ago, when I used to visit my (now-passed) best friend in northern
> Virginia, we'd go out to "Tippy's Taco" and gorge on Tex-Mex. (He called
> Ticky-Tacky Taco.) We'd bring back a bag of chips and a tub of queso, and
> complete the meal.

I remember when Tippy's first started out here. We who like
food thought it was a real treat. There's still one here on
Lee Highway in Fairfax. I haven't eaten at a Tippy's in
probably 30 years


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[--D-y]

On Sep 26, 10:58*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> William Sommerwerck > wrote:
> > "hank alrich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > Driving through Austin traffic day before yesterday Fletcher
> > > switched to KMFA, the "classical" music station. We were
> > > treated to one set of cliches after another.
>
> > I suppose an "involved" person's art is a "detached" person's cliché.
>
> > As a classical listener, I'm aware that a lot of Baroque music (and some
> > Classical) uses devices (trills, cadences) that, to non-classical listeners,
> > sound like clichés. I suppose they are.
>
> > But classical listeners are generally aware of this, and Peter Schickele has
> > mercilessly skewered them (eg, "Iphigenia in Brooklyn"). How do C&W
> > listeners respond to the constantly repeated elements of C&W?
>
> > >> "If I Could Only Fly" is almost certainly a conscious send-up
> > >> of bad C&W.
>
> > > No, it is not, and therein lies the rub between a critic's detachment
> > > and an artist's life.
>
> > I've just started a book on Tex-Mex cooking. "Tex-Mex" has long been a
> > derogatory term, suggesting that Americanized Mexican cooking is a
> > *******ization of "legitimate" Mexican cuisine, created solely to appeal to
> > vulgar American "taste".
>
> > The author quotes someone as saying that whatever comes from the heart is
> > legitimate, and not worthy of such criticism. The question then becomes
> > whether Tex-Mex food (which I love) really does come "from the heart", or
> > was created simply to make dishes palatable that were unpalatable to people
> > from another culture.
>
> > Blaze Foley (the name is more than a little tongue-in-cheek) had a great
> > sense of humor. I cannot imagine him writing "If I Could Only Fly" without
> > being consciously aware that it was a string-of-consciousness melding of
> > familiar themes.
>
> > PS: Thank you for your intelligent and insightful responses to my remarks.
> > They are much appreciated.
>
> William, you're welcome. Coming back to this belatedly, and posting
> tonight from Austin TX, I can assure you that in some realms "Tex Mex"
> is not a derogatory term at all. <g>

(If I may) Indeed.
Over at El Azteca (East Austin), they (son George) told me they prefer
the term "Mex-Tex". There's good reason for that sentiment, and as the
demographic continues to change... who knows?

Some people are aghast, and flee to "El Interior", so to speak. They
have their reasons, and more power to them, as long as they're eating
food they enjoy.

As a well-rooted Yankee transplant (early '84), I've sampled the
Mex's, the Tex's, at least a couple of the Interiors I guess
(authentic purity abounding) and the only things that really matter
(humble opinion offered) IRT "palatability" (including menudo) is a
cook who likes food and a wait staff who sees their employment as a
worthy profession (hot food served hot, etc.).

I could relate a pretty funny story about one of the "Interior" places
here in Austin where one of (apparently) the owner/manager/some kind
of "brass" delivered something of a rebuke-lecture to my ex, who had
made a comment on the limitations of the menu based on her experience
of going to high school in Guadalajara for at least a couple of years.
Let's just say her family (really) lived in a few other places in the
world, too (they still have a winter home near Lake Chapala, Jalisco
Mexico) , where they learned the languages (3 plus a variant), made
lasting friends with the citizens, etc., and no, we didn't "win the
argument" (or try to), nor did we stay and eat, either. "What a joke"
was the comment delivered once out of earshot of the proud owner/
operator/senior waitress.

BTW: That place can't touch El Azteca's calendars-- or for that
manner, the authenticity ("this is Texas") of décor, either.

Thank you for this minor interruption from the audience.
--D-y