Tap Dancers

[MG[_4_]]

Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA? We
tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much. Any
advice welcomed.

mg

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

MG > wrote:

> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA? We
> tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much. Any
> advice welcomed.

I had to do P.A. at an outdoor clog-dance venue and found that I
couldn't get the mic near enough to avoid problems with feedback. Long
before the threshold of howl-round, the sound became muddy and hollow,
with the sharp taps turning into dull clonks.

Luckily I was using two column loudspeakers, one on each side of the
back of the stage, so I was able to set up a figure-of-eight mic on the
line between them and get them both in the null plane of the mic.
Because this was in the open air, there was very little reflection of
the loudspeaker sound from any surrounding objects into the live sides
of the mic. I was able to increase the gain well above the level which
would have howled with a cardioid mic and still hear nice crisp taps.

Diagram at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/images/TapMic.gif

This might not be so effective indoors where reflected sound is almost
certain to find its way into the mic, but it might be worth a try if the
loudspeaker layout is suitable and you can borrow a figure-of-eight mic.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[PStamler]

I had good luck in a similar situation with an Electro-Voice RE15
peeking over the lip of the stage. My life was made much easier by not
having to put it through a PA system, though -- it was only for the
videotaping.

Peace,
Paul

[philicorda[_9_]]

On Mon, 23 May 2011 16:23:56 -0400, MG wrote:

> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA?
> We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much.
> Any advice welcomed.
>
> mg


I have used sound reinforcement for this in the past. We tried building a
custom floor with contact mikes in it, but it sounded a bit weird, as the
resonance of the floor takes over. We had more luck with just a mic in
the wings, as luckily the part with tap dancing took place upstage, quite
far from the front of house.

Recently, as the tap happened in a quieter bit of a different show, we
found the best solution was to turn down the PA.
Also, it helps to try a few surfaces for them to tap on.
If the stage has vinyl dance floor, or is kinda soft, a sheet of ply
makes quite a difference.

[axolotl]

On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA?
> We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much.
> Any advice welcomed.
>
> mg

Here's one way.

<http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/capturingthe_tap_shoe_sound_of_the_radio_city_rock ettes>


Kevin Gallimore

[Audio1]

On 5/23/2011 19:19, axolotl wrote:
> On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
>> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA?
>> We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much.
>> Any advice welcomed.
>>
>> mg
>
> Here's one way.
>
> <http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/capturingthe_tap_shoe_sound_of_the_radio_city_rock ettes>
>
>
>
> Kevin Gallimore


Oh great, just what I need, 80 dancers coming up to me with comments
like 'The mids in my left shoe are lower than my right,' or 'can you
turn my feet up in my mix, please?'

[Mike Rivers]

On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into
> the house PA? We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the
> dancers and didn't get much. Any advice welcomed.

No, you won't, since the dancers tend to move around a lot,
and you want to put the mics where they won't get kicked.
Irish step dancers always used to ask, no, demand, that
there be a mic for their feet. I humor them, set something
up, and don't use it in the house but will put it in the
monitor so they'll know that it's live.

I feel like telling them that if that's what they want the
audience to hear, they should hire a drummer.

I'm aware that there are shows where the dancers' feet are
an essential element of sound design. For those, the dancers
usually wear a wireless transmitter and have mics attached
to their ankles. But that's out of my league.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Frank Stearns]

Audio1 > writes:

>On 5/23/2011 19:19, axolotl wrote:
>> On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
>>> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA?
>>> We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much.
>>> Any advice welcomed.
>>>
>>> mg
>>
>> Here's one way.
>>
>> <http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/capturingthe_tap_shoe_sound_of_the_radio_city_rock ettes>
>>
>> Kevin Gallimore

>Oh great, just what I need, 80 dancers coming up to me with comments
>like 'The mids in my left shoe are lower than my right,' or 'can you
>turn my feet up in my mix, please?'


That's when you switch your EQ not to peak nor shelf, but arch...

And of course, to make a judgement like that, be sure your monitors are properly
toe'd, otherwise they'll call you a heel.

(Way too many more bad puns come to mind, so I'll stop now.)

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[MG[_4_]]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
>> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into
>> the house PA? We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the
>> dancers and didn't get much. Any advice welcomed.
>
> No, you won't, since the dancers tend to move around a lot, and you want
> to put the mics where they won't get kicked. Irish step dancers always
> used to ask, no, demand, that there be a mic for their feet. I humor them,
> set something up, and don't use it in the house but will put it in the
> monitor so they'll know that it's live.
>
> I feel like telling them that if that's what they want the audience to
> hear, they should hire a drummer.
>
> I'm aware that there are shows where the dancers' feet are an essential
> element of sound design. For those, the dancers usually wear a wireless
> transmitter and have mics attached to their ankles. But that's out of my
> league.
>
> --
> "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a
> passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated
> without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson
>
> http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff
>

The problem on this show was that it was a dance school recital, with
dancers ranging in age from 4-ish to 18, so some of the tapping was nearly
non-existent anyway. We decided to try to mix a little into the house so
the parents could hear. Feedback was a little bit of an issue in rehearsal,
even though the tap mics were not in the stage mix. I had thoughts about a
bit more of an array in front of the stage but logistics were impossible for
that. It was a school auditorium, temporary Marley floor, and between the
Saturday and Sunday performances there was a church service that required us
to strike everything. I'll read the Radio City article, but if these kids
could tap like that, I'm guessing they wouldn't have needed the
reinforcement. The irony of the situation was that the acoustics are such
that I could hear the taps pretty clearly up in the booth, but they flew
above the audience's heads. Thanks for the thoughts.

mg

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 23 May 2011 23:29:46 -0400, "MG" >
wrote:

>
>
>"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
>> On 5/23/2011 4:23 PM, MG wrote:
>>> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into
>>> the house PA? We tried a couple of PCCs in front of the
>>> dancers and didn't get much. Any advice welcomed.
>>
>> No, you won't, since the dancers tend to move around a lot, and you want
>> to put the mics where they won't get kicked. Irish step dancers always
>> used to ask, no, demand, that there be a mic for their feet. I humor them,
>> set something up, and don't use it in the house but will put it in the
>> monitor so they'll know that it's live.
>>
>> I feel like telling them that if that's what they want the audience to
>> hear, they should hire a drummer.
>>
>> I'm aware that there are shows where the dancers' feet are an essential
>> element of sound design. For those, the dancers usually wear a wireless
>> transmitter and have mics attached to their ankles. But that's out of my
>> league.
>>
>> --
>> "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a
>> passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated
>> without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson
>>
>> http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff
>>
>
>The problem on this show was that it was a dance school recital, with
>dancers ranging in age from 4-ish to 18, so some of the tapping was nearly
>non-existent anyway. We decided to try to mix a little into the house so
>the parents could hear. Feedback was a little bit of an issue in rehearsal,
>even though the tap mics were not in the stage mix. I had thoughts about a
>bit more of an array in front of the stage but logistics were impossible for
>that. It was a school auditorium, temporary Marley floor, and between the
>Saturday and Sunday performances there was a church service that required us
>to strike everything. I'll read the Radio City article, but if these kids
>could tap like that, I'm guessing they wouldn't have needed the
>reinforcement. The irony of the situation was that the acoustics are such
>that I could hear the taps pretty clearly up in the booth, but they flew
>above the audience's heads. Thanks for the thoughts.
>
>mg

How about a little creative Foley in post?

d

[[email protected]]

On 2011-05-23 said:
Mike Rivers writes:
>No, you won't, since the dancers tend to move around a lot,
>and you want to put the mics where they won't get kicked.
>Irish step dancers always used to ask, no, demand, that
>there be a mic for their feet. I humor them, set something
>up, and don't use it in the house but will put it in the
>monitor so they'll know that it's live.
>I feel like telling them that if that's what they want the
>audience to hear, they should hire a drummer.
<rotfl> I get the same feeling when I've been asked.

>I'm aware that there are shows where the dancers' feet are
>an essential element of sound design. For those, the dancers
>usually wear a wireless transmitter and have mics attached
>to their ankles. But that's out of my league.
INdeed, but these were amateurs I was working with, at a
performing arts center. I found pzm's would work, but note
the caveats about resonant stages expressed earlier in this
thread.

At this performing arts center (converted barn was a bar &
restaurant, then other things, then performing arts center)
there was a cement platform which was under the stage. I
used some cloth bags filled with sand between the support
beams for the actual floor of the stage on this cement
platform, and did more bags of sand inside the drum riser we
built to keep it from resonating. WHen we had folks doing
the tap thing I'd get them to use the drum riser, which was
rather large, and mount a couple of pzm's to the platform.
Because it didn't resonate and turn the "tap" into thuyd
boom it seemed to work, but then I didn't use a lot of it,
keep the music to sensible levels in the monitors and mains.

Also note that the mains were far enough removed from the
pzm's that there wasn't a problem.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Mark]

On May 23, 4:23*pm, "MG" > wrote:
> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA? *We
> tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much. *Any
> advice welcomed.
>
> mg

PZMs and EQ as required , probably high pass above 1 kHz

Mark

[cedricl[_2_]]

On May 23, 1:23*pm, "MG" > wrote:
> Anyone out there ever mic tap dancing to mix a little into the house PA? *We
> tried a couple of PCCs in front of the dancers and didn't get much. *Any
> advice welcomed.
>
> mg

We used to use PCCs but I replaced those with some small cap
condensors on 3" spider stands with heavy compression (-20 at 10-1) so
the closer the dancer gets to them, the more the compression tames the
signal. We also have shotguns in the wings on short 12" stands. Add
those if the stage is deep and if the dancer goes upstage away from
the front mics.

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 23 May 2011 18:18:32 -0400, PStamler wrote
(in article
>):

> I had good luck in a similar situation with an Electro-Voice RE15
> peeking over the lip of the stage. My life was made much easier by not
> having to put it through a PA system, though -- it was only for the
> videotaping.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

There is a company that makes wireless mics systems for tap shoes.

http://www.q5x.com/products/wireless-transmitters/tapshoemic/

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA