Re: Bad wire

[mike s]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:03:22 AM UTC+1, Phil Allison wrote:
> "mike s"
>
> Turns out the very carefully hand wiring had put the rubber insulated wire
> in direct contact with the aluminium chassis and in 60 years the black
> rubber had changed from an insulator to a resistor.
>
> I should probably replace all the wires, which is a shame as it is so
> tidily built.
>
>
> ** You might like to get some of this from Farnell:
>
> http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/bsr39-black-25m/wire-silicone-black-16-0-2mm-25m/dp/1465863?Ntt=146-5863
>
> Made of silicone, feels soft and look just like rubber and several colours
> available.
>

I have some of that, or something similar, that I used for the top cap connections to the KT44 output valves in my "Quality Amplifier". However for point to point wiring under the chassis I like to keep with (British?) tradition and use solid, rather than stranded, cores. So I'll use 20 swg tinned copper wire (not sure what that is in AWG, it's nearly 1mm so stays where it's put. For sleeving I'll use either silicone or pvc, probably pvc.


> The 3A current rating is nonsense - it can handle 10A and only rise about
> 10 degrees C in free air.
>

Other than for heaters it's never really an issue, but having wires rigid enough to stay where you put them is always pleasing.

I do remember reading in Bob Pease's book "Troubleshooting analog circuits" that telfon insulated wire isn't tinned but silver plated. Which sounds fancy, but has problems of its own. Lets face it, silver tarnishes to black after several years, and will wick up solder. Mind you EU rules on solder means the new stuff is tin and silver, not tin and lead. So who knows what's best. Tinned copper works fine for wire though.

[Big Bad Bob]

On 04/27/11 15:06, mike s so wittily quipped:
> I do remember reading in Bob Pease's book "Troubleshooting analog
> circuits" that telfon insulated wire isn't tinned but silver plated.
> Which sounds fancy, but has problems of its own. Lets face it,
> silver tarnishes to black after several years, and will wick up
> solder. Mind you EU rules on solder means the new stuff is tin and
> silver, not tin and lead. So who knows what's best. Tinned copper
> works fine for wire though.

I've worked with silver connectors (etc.) a lot back in the day
(military equipment). Silver oxide conducts BETTER than silver. So
ignore the black 'patina-like' splotches on silver connectors, they're
making it a better conductor than it was before (silver plating flaking
off would be a different issue, these were SOLID silver). But I don't
recall all teflon insulated wire having silver or silver-plated
conductors. Still, I'm sure there IS some. Did have to deal with high
temp silver-solder on certain equipment, like temp detectors on steam
systems. Silver wire would be a high reliability component also.

FYI - the no-lead solder requirements are from ROHS. You can often tell
the difference by the presence of shiny (lead) or non-shiny (un-lead)
solder (not quite like a cold joint but somewhat similar looking).

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Big Bad Boob is a ****ING IDIOT "


> I've worked with silver connectors (etc.) a lot back in the day (military
> equipment). Silver oxide conducts BETTER than silver.

** Silver oxide does not occur on silver coated items.

Nor is it a better conductor than pure silver - it is an insulator.


> So ignore the black 'patina-like' splotches on silver connectors,

** The dark discolouration on silver is " silver sulphide " - a poor
conductor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_sulfide


> they're making it a better conductor than it was before .

** ROTFLMAO !!!

That ******** is one of the DUMBEST myths ever spread around the internet by
****WITS like Boob.



..... Phil

[Big Bad Bob]

On 04/28/11 00:14, Phil Allison so wittily quipped:
>
>> they're making it a better conductor than it was before .
>
> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>
> That ******** is one of the DUMBEST myths ever spread around the internet by
> ****WITS like Boob.

I'll let you take that up with the U.S. Navy then. If it's a myth, I'm
sure they'll want 'your emminence' correcting them.

question: where does the sulphide come from in a sulfur-free environment?

[GRe]

"Big Bad Bob" > wrote in message
m...
> On 04/28/11 00:14, Phil Allison so wittily quipped:
>>
>>> they're making it a better conductor than it was before .
>>
>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>
>> That ******** is one of the DUMBEST myths ever spread around the internet
>> by
>> ****WITS like Boob.
>
> I'll let you take that up with the U.S. Navy then. If it's a myth, I'm
> sure they'll want 'your emminence' correcting them.
>
> question: where does the sulphide come from in a sulfur-free environment?

Boob's Butt Burbles Bended Beeps again.

Where would that environment be?
Earth's crust sulphur abundance is about 350ppm
(by weight), for the oceans that's about 900ppm.

Even milky way abundance accounts for 440ppm.
Interstellar space excluded but compensated by your
Butt's effluent. You must be a Bad Butt Burping alien.

No wonder the navy sacked an alien electro-chemical hazard.

Please Booby, Be Benign to the world, RAT in particular.
Backward Batty Beadledom, cut the verbal diarrhea.
Bethlem yourself Bumpkin, I won't Be Bereaved.

Gio

[John L Stewart]

On 04/27/11 15:06, mike s so wittily quipped:
> I do remember reading in Bob Pease's book "Troubleshooting analog
> circuits" that telfon insulated wire isn't tinned but silver plated.
> Which sounds fancy, but has problems of its own. Lets face it,
> silver tarnishes to black after several years, and will wick up
> solder. Mind you EU rules on solder means the new stuff is tin and
> silver, not tin and lead. So who knows what's best. Tinned copper
> works fine for wire though.

I've worked with silver connectors (etc.) a lot back in the day
(military equipment). Silver oxide conducts BETTER than silver.
So
ignore the black 'patina-like' splotches on silver connectors, they're
making it a better conductor than it was before (silver plating flaking
off would be a different issue, these were SOLID silver). But I don't
recall all teflon insulated wire having silver or silver-plated
conductors. Still, I'm sure there IS some. Did have to deal with high
temp silver-solder on certain equipment, like temp detectors on steam
systems. Silver wire would be a high reliability component also.

FYI - the no-lead solder requirements are from ROHS. You can often tell
the difference by the presence of shiny (lead) or non-shiny (un-lead)
solder (not quite like a cold joint but somewhat similar looking).

-------------------------------------------------------

Your comments on silver oxide as a good conductor are Super BS, better look again. In general oxides (and sulphides) of the metallic conductors are usually good insulators. And alloys in general never conduct as well as their constituent metals.

There are some references, here is an example of many-

http://www.odysseyaudiohk.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1139155941

Cheers to all, John

[Big Bad Bob]

On 04/27/11 19:06, flipper so wittily quipped:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:10:25 -0700, Big Bad Bob
> > wrote:
>
>> On 04/27/11 15:06, mike s so wittily quipped:
>>> I do remember reading in Bob Pease's book "Troubleshooting analog
>>> circuits" that telfon insulated wire isn't tinned but silver plated.
>>> Which sounds fancy, but has problems of its own. Lets face it,
>>> silver tarnishes to black after several years, and will wick up
>>> solder. Mind you EU rules on solder means the new stuff is tin and
>>> silver, not tin and lead. So who knows what's best. Tinned copper
>>> works fine for wire though.
>>
>> I've worked with silver connectors (etc.) a lot back in the day
>> (military equipment). Silver oxide conducts BETTER than silver. So
>> ignore the black 'patina-like' splotches on silver connectors, they're
>> making it a better conductor than it was before (silver plating flaking
>> off would be a different issue, these were SOLID silver).
>
> What you may be remembering is that silver oxide is 'better' than
> copper, but it's not better than silver.
>
> http://www.marechal.com/files/documentation_file_116.pdf

interesting, it's not what I remember them teaching us at the US Navy
schools... perhaps they were referring to what happens when you try to
CLEAN OFF the oxide, and you 'roughen' the connectors in the process
(making them less effective) and 'better than copper' sounds good enough
to me. Or, maybe they were just trying to keep people from
unnecessarily cleaning or replacing silver connectors.


/me ignoring the 'me too' nitpicky 'build my own self-image up at the
expense of others' trolls in this thread, since I already know I'm
great, and don't need to go around shooting at others to prove it.
Those who find themselves compelled to nit-pick what I say and use ad
hominem attacks are doomed to become the failures that they already are.

[Big Bad Bob]

On 04/29/11 12:55, John L Stewart so wittily quipped:

> Your comments on silver oxide as a good conductor are Super BS

flipper gave this link.

http://www.marechal.com/files/documentation_file_116.pdf

I'll stand corrected on silver oxide NOT being better than silver metal
(the difference isn't critical), but it's certainly a BETTER conductor
than copper. Bottom line: don't bother cleaning your solid silver
connectors. They'll work better if you don't, particular if cleaning
off the patina/oxide/whatever scratches the connectors a bit. So the
real issue here is that the oxidized silver probably works BETTER than a
connector that you cleaned the oxide off of, not necessarily because of
the measured conductivity of the silver or silver oxide, but because the
conducting surface isn't 'as good' after you cleaned it.

BOTTOM LINE: _YOUR_ comments on silver oxide are MEGA-SUPER-BS, if you
will. Nice try playing the "me too" troll along with the other trollers
that can't wait for an opportunity to do an ad-hominem attack on me.

That just goes to show you that Albert Einstein was right when he said
"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre
Minds". It doesn't take an 'Einstein' to see who the 'Mediocre Minds'
are in this thread. They're the ones engaging in all of the ad hominem
attacks, of course.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Big Bad Boob is a Criminal Psychopath "

> On 04/29/11 12:55, John L Stewart so wittily quipped:
>
>> Your comments on silver oxide as a good conductor are Super BS
>
> flipper gave this link.
>
> http://www.marechal.com/files/documentation_file_116.pdf
>
> I'll stand corrected on silver oxide NOT being better than silver metal
> (the difference isn't critical), but it's certainly a BETTER conductor
> than copper.

** The pdf says nothing of the kind and is mostly a * very misleading * pile
of horse dung.

1. Silver oxide simply does not exist as a tarnish on silver metal.

2. The dark tarnish on silver is Silver Sulphide - a good insulator.

Silver plated relay contacts and switches often fail to connect if badly
tarnished. Whether a connection is made at all depends on the amount of
force on the contacts AND the nature of what is being switched.

Small signals, of whatever frequency, are the WORST CASE for failing to
connect when contacts are affected by tarnishes or corrosion.

There is no such thing as a good tarnish.

Badly tarnished brass pins on an AC power plug can insulate at 240 volts AC.

I've see it happen.


.... Phil

[John L Stewart]

On Mon, 02 May 2011 19:49:34 -0700, Big Bad Bob
> wrote:

>On 04/29/11 12:55, John L Stewart so wittily quipped:
>
>> Your comments on silver oxide as a good conductor are Super BS
>
>flipper gave this link.
>
>http://www.marechal.com/files/documentation_file_116.pdf
>
>I'll stand corrected on silver oxide NOT being better than silver metal
>(the difference isn't critical), but it's certainly a BETTER conductor
>than copper. Bottom line: don't bother cleaning your solid silver
>connectors. They'll work better if you don't, particular if cleaning
>off the patina/oxide/whatever scratches the connectors a bit. So the
>real issue here is that the oxidized silver probably works BETTER than a
>connector that you cleaned the oxide off of, not necessarily because of
>the measured conductivity of the silver or silver oxide, but because the
>conducting surface isn't 'as good' after you cleaned it.
>
>BOTTOM LINE: _YOUR_ comments on silver oxide are MEGA-SUPER-BS, if you
>will. Nice try playing the "me too" troll along with the other trollers
>that can't wait for an opportunity to do an ad-hominem attack on me.
>
>That just goes to show you that Albert Einstein was right when he said
>"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre
>Minds". It doesn't take an 'Einstein' to see who the 'Mediocre Minds'
>are in this thread. They're the ones engaging in all of the ad hominem
>attacks, of course.

You need to be cautious about drawing conclusions, as I suggested when
pointing out that comparison was for relay contacts.

I.E. on a contact the oxide is a thin layer between the base metal and
the other, so the overall net effect is minimized. By that I mean,
silver oxide may be so much better than *copper* oxide, but that
doesn't necessarily mean silver oxide is, in and of itself, a good
conductor.

Guess all depends on how 'good' is 'good', depends on your perspective. See this link-

http://hamwaves.com/antennas/coils.html

and go down to 'Silver Plating'. This note indicates silver oxide to have 1/500th the conductivity of silver.

Oddly, the Wiki reference to silver oxide gives no information on volume resistivity, that I could see anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_oxide

The Marechal paper refers only to AgO forming on contacts, then giving a comparison of contact resistance to pure silver. Looks good on paper. But further down we find they are using a silver-nickel alloy for their reasons given. Otherwise I find the paper to be quite informative.

But AgS is the most likely to form on pure silver & does with little hesitation.

Cheers to all, John

[John L Stewart]

I.E. on a contact the oxide is a thin layer between the base metal and
the other, so the overall net effect is minimized. By that I mean,
silver oxide may be so much better than *copper* oxide, but that
doesn't necessarily mean silver oxide is, in and of itself, a good
conductor.[/QUOTE]

Here is a silver product some might find useful. Came upon it a few years ago but have yet to try.

http://www.cool-amp.com/

Cheers, John

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"flipper is an IDIOT "

>
>>But AgS is the most likely to form on pure silver & does with little
>>hesitation.
>

1. Silver oxide simply does not exist as a tarnish on silver metal.

2. The dark tarnish on silver is Silver Sulphide - a good insulator.



"Silver is a very inactive metal. It does not react with oxygen in the air
under normal circumstances. It does react slowly with sulfur compounds in
the air, however. The product of this reaction is silver sulfide (Ag 2 S), a
black compound. The tarnish that develops over time on silverware and other
silver-plated objects is silver sulfide. "
http://www.chemistryexplained.com/elements/P-T/Silver.html



BTW:

Damn good thing silver oxide does not form on metallic silver at anything
like room temp - cos the stuff is quite poisonous.

All that silver tableware would have to be banned if it did.


.... Phil

[Big Bad Bob]

On 05/03/11 22:11, Phil Allison so wittily quipped:
> "flipper is an IDIOT"

troll harder, your lack of a cerebral cortex is showing

[Big Bad Bob]

On 05/02/11 20:09, Phil Allison so wittily quipped:
> "Big Bad Boob is a Criminal Psychopath"

> ** The pdf says nothing of the kind and is mostly a * very misleading * pile
> of horse dung.

With statements like that, it's no wonder that nobody will hire you, and
you still live in your mommy's house, most likely in the basement, like
a lot of other shut-in wannabe types that only know how to be assholes.

I'd love to interview you for a job, just so I could see you do this in
person, face to face, and throw you out of the interview. That would be
VERY satisfying.