ortf delay to ortf. do they need to be same configuration??

[lewdslewrate]

Hi.....already had good advice from here on this project. Anyone see
likely pitfalls with this scenario:

x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
riser.

ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
deg)
ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
much of orchestra.

**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
being too fussy?**

Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
The hall is a great sports hall!

I confess to having read more theory (not always understood) than
having actual experience....but as Manuel says..... "i learn Mr
fawlty.i learn"

cheers

[Scott Dorsey]

lewdslewrate > wrote:
>x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
>orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
>voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
>riser.
>
>ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
>deg)
>ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
>nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
>bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
>much of orchestra.

How much signal pickup will they have in common?

>**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
>different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
>being too fussy?**

Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will say
that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
in general. You can do it but you have to think about isolation.

I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.

You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.

>Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
>mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
>right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
is nearly 360 degrees.

>A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
>reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
>also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
>The hall is a great sports hall!

That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times harder.

>I confess to having read more theory (not always understood) than
>having actual experience....but as Manuel says..... "i learn Mr
>fawlty.i learn"

Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

>lewdslewrate > wrote:
>>x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
>>orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
>>voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
>>riser.
>>
>>ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
>>deg)
>>ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
>>nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
>>bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
>>much of orchestra.

>How much signal pickup will they have in common?

>>**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
>>different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
>>being too fussy?**

>Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will say
>that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
>in general. You can do it but you have to think about isolation.

>I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
>room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.

>You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.

>>Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
>>mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
>>right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

>Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
>is nearly 360 degrees.


This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no pun) regarding
each point.

Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir, including the
basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots might be
appropriate.

You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What are they
performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will alter the
approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists, large chamber orch
-- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something similar?)


BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to live-mix this
to 2 track?


Here are some augmentation ideas for you:

- If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the MG300, KM84 (maybe
even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be shrill), you can put
them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but then tip them up
30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing the orchestra,
while the voice sound is going over them.

You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on top of the
back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics that don't
destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.

- Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe a few feet
higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with omnis. This
double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the room (if the
room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you want into the
ensemble v. how much room.

- You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original note) if you delay
the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with multiple
acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might not work out.
Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb filtering of
all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately 40 ms).

And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.


>>A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
>>reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
>>also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
>>The hall is a great sports hall!

>That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times harder.

Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and the tip-up of
the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene and put a contact
mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack of 6
channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...

I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach sound
good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)


>Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.

And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.

Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as low as
possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it.

Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate dimensions?
Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain weird). Will the
choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how far back is a
reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters nearby?

What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've heard of it.

A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[lewdslewrate]

On Apr 10, 5:10*pm, Frank Stearns >
wrote:
> (Scott Dorsey) writes:
> >lewdslewrate > wrote:
> >>x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
> >>orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
> >>voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
> >>riser.
>
> >>ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
> >>deg)
> >>ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
> >>nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
> >>bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
> >>much of orchestra.
> >How much signal pickup will they have in common?
> >>**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
> >>different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
> >>being too fussy?**
> >Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. *But I will say
> >that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
> >in general. *You can do it but you have to think about isolation.
> >I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
> >room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.
> >You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.
> >>Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
> >>mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
> >>right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?
> >Why? *They'll be fine. *The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
> >is nearly 360 degrees.
>
> This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no pun) regarding
> each point.
>
> Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir, including the
> basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots might be
> appropriate.
>
> You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What are they
> performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will alter the
> approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists, large chamber orch
> -- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something similar?)
>
> BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to live-mix this
> to 2 track?
>
> Here are some augmentation ideas for you:
>
> - If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the MG300, KM84 (maybe
> even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be shrill), you can put
> them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but then tip them up
> 30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing the orchestra,
> while the voice sound is going over them.
>
> You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on top of the
> back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics that don't
> destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.
>
> - Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe a few feet
> higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with omnis. This
> double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the room (if the
> room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you want into the
> ensemble v. how much room.
>
> - You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original note) if you delay
> the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with multiple
> acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might not work out.
> Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb filtering of
> all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately 40 ms).
>
> And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.
>
> >>A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
> >>reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. *He
> >>also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
> >>The hall is a great sports hall!
> >That's bad news. *I'm sorry. *That makes your job a thousand times harder.
>
> Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and the tip-up of
> the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene and put a contact
> mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack of 6
> channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...
>
> I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach sound
> good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)
>
> >Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.
>
> And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.
>
> Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as low as
> possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it.
>
> Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate dimensions?
> Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain weird). Will the
> choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how far back is a
> reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters nearby?
>
> What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've heard of it.
>
> A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.
>
> Frank
> Mobile Audio
>
> --
> *.
Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
opened...not completely finished. rectangle shoe box with a arched
roof.

Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance)
Lower walls: Plaster finished blockwork;
Upper walls: Timber slatted panelling, ~25% open area, mineral fibre
quilt
behind;
Roof: Perforated liner tray, 30mm Rockwool above.

Approx 16m x 35m and high!

Audience capacity 600 No acoustic shell for choir etc D&B man
adds early reflections as hall is deemed poor for tonal reference for
singing. Choristers complain they cannot hear themselves or anyone
else...they had this problem in gloucester Cathedral but the
atmosphere of event and 'big church' sound had a psychological effect
and they got through great...in this sports hall they get little
reference back to their own ears and they all hate it as a venue.
There is a wicked slap back echo across the hall due to lower walls
(they may put some drapes up on one side as advised but i am not
holding my breath....its a real spaced out dubby hard as nails
thing..and fast and loud...and with a Rolf Harris type of 'wobble
board' sound for extra confusion Great fun if your feeling like 12
years old and you are on your own! A less than ethereal
reverberation mush pertains in upper reaches (aka 'swimming
pool').....and intelligibility for speech diminishes rapidly as one
moves away from another person.

Mozarts requiem.

Technical paraphinalia not appreciated so mics on stands in front of
choir may not be allowed but i could configure some for the basses.
Soloists x4 share 2 mics....i have only one more C414...if i cant loan
one more it will be......sorry to share this.......my akg perception
420's cardioid with a mini screen behind....

I chose MC930 ORTF to get a good stereo placement of orchestra
instruments and some of the soloists. (originally purchased for
Cathedral to cut out some of the 'room' as i had to place them quite a
way back from the choir...again an orchestra in between.....acceptable
result for school archive....learning curve for me) I could put a
cardioid spaced pair (flown C414XLS) in front of choir/
overhead.....its a more general wash of sound so accurate placement is
less critical (i think)......would this be easier to delay to the ORTF
pair.

I am multi tracking to an Yamaha AW2400 recorder (8 tracks 24 bit) I
invested in some quality mic cable.....(may have audition use of a
Focusrite ISA8 just to see how it influences the preamp stage (i will
use analogue outs on ISA8 & still use converters on Aw2400)....i will
be in a sports store to one side....headphones only.....peeping
through a crack for visuals.

[lewdslewrate]

On Apr 10, 7:13*pm, Carey Carlan > wrote:
> lewdslewrate > wrote :
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 5:10 pm, Frank Stearns >
> > wrote:
> >> (Scott Dorsey) writes:
> >> >lewdslewrate > wrote:
> >> >>x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
> >> >>orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
> >> >>voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3
> >> >>level riser.
>
> >> >>ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle
> >> >>120 deg)
> >> >>ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source
> >> >>angle nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them
> >> >>back a bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise
> >> >>getting too much of orchestra.
> >> >How much signal pickup will they have in common?
> >> >>**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
> >> >>different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am
> >> >>i being too fussy?**
> >> >Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will
> >> >say that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for
> >> >trouble in general. You can do it but you have to think about
> >> >isolation. I think you are much better off trying to think about
> >> >recording the room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the
> >> >choir. You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording
> >> >the room.
> >> >>Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
> >> >>mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra
> >> >>and right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a
> >> >>try?
> >> >Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 10
> > 0 Hz
> >> >is nearly 360 degrees.
>
> >> This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no
> >> pun)
> > regarding
> >> each point.
>
> >> Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir,
> >> includ
> > ing the
> >> basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots
> >> might be appropriate.
>
> >> You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What
> >> are t
> > hey
> >> performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will
> >> alter
> > *the
> >> approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists,
> >> large c
> > hamber orch
> >> -- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something
> >> similar?)
>
> >> BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to
> >> live-
> > mix this
> >> to 2 track?
>
> >> Here are some augmentation ideas for you:
>
> >> - If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the
> >> MG300, K
> > M84 (maybe
> >> even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be
> >> shrill),
> > you can put
> >> them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but
> >> then ti
> > p them up
> >> 30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing
> >> the or
> > chestra,
> >> while the voice sound is going over them.
>
> >> You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on
> >> top
> > *of the
> >> back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics
> >> that
> > don't
> >> destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.
>
> >> - Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe
> >> a fe
> > w feet
> >> higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with
> >> omni
> > s. This
> >> double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the
> >> roo
> > m (if the
> >> room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you
> >> want
> > *into the
> >> ensemble v. how much room.
>
> >> - You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original
> >> note) if
> > *you delay
> >> the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with
> >> mul
> > tiple
> >> acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might
> >> not
> > *work out.
> >> Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb
> >> filt
> > ering of
> >> all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately
> >> 40
> > ms).
>
> >> And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.
>
> >> >>A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
> >> >>reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir.
> >> >> H
> > e
> >> >>also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
> >> >>The hall is a great sports hall!
> >> >That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times h
> > arder.
>
> >> Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and
> >> the
> > tip-up of
> >> the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene
> >> and pu
> > t a contact
> >> mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack
> >> of 6 channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...
>
> >> I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach
> >> sound good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)
>
> >> >Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.
>
> >> And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.
>
> >> Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as
> >> low a
> > s
> >> possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it.
>
> >> Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate
> >> dimen
> > sions?
> >> Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain
> >> weird).
> > Will the
> >> choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how
> >> far
> > back is a
> >> reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters
> >> nearby
> > ?
>
> >> What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've
> >> heard
> > of it.
>
> >> A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.
>
> >> Frank
> >> Mobile Audio
>
> >> --
> >> .
> > Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
> > opened...not completely finished. *rectangle shoe box with a arched
> > roof.
>
> > Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance)
> > Lower walls: Plaster finished blockwork;
> > Upper walls: Timber slatted panelling, ~25% open area, mineral fibre
> > quilt
> > behind;
> > Roof: Perforated liner tray, 30mm Rockwool above.
>
> > Approx 16m x 35m and high!
>
> > Audience capacity 600 * * * * No acoustic shell for choir etc *D&B man
> > adds early reflections as hall is deemed poor for tonal reference for
> > singing. *Choristers complain they cannot hear themselves or anyone
> > else...they had this problem in gloucester Cathedral but the
> > atmosphere of event and 'big church' sound had a psychological effect
> > and they got through great...in this sports hall they get little
> > reference back to their own ears and they all hate it as a venue.
> > There is a wicked slap back echo across the hall due to lower walls
> > (they may put some drapes up on one side as advised but i am not
> > holding my breath....its a real spaced out dubby hard as nails
> > thing..and fast and loud...and with a Rolf Harris type of 'wobble
> > board' sound for extra confusion *Great fun if your feeling like 12
> > years old and you are on your own! * A less than ethereal
> > reverberation mush pertains in upper reaches (aka 'swimming
> > pool').....and intelligibility for speech diminishes rapidly as one
> > moves away from another person.
>
> > Mozarts requiem.
>
> > Technical paraphinalia not appreciated so mics on stands in front of
> > choir may not be allowed but i could configure some for the basses.
> > Soloists x4 share 2 mics....i have only one more C414...if i cant loan
> > one more it will be......sorry to share this.......my akg perception
> > 420's cardioid with a mini screen behind....
>
> > I chose MC930 ORTF to get a good stereo placement of orchestra
> > instruments and some of the soloists. (originally purchased for
> > Cathedral to cut out some of the 'room' as i had to place them quite a
> > way back from the choir...again an orchestra in between.....acceptable
> > result for school archive....learning curve for me) *I could put a
> > cardioid spaced pair (flown C414XLS) in front of choir/
> > overhead.....its a more general wash of sound so accurate placement is
> > less critical (i think)......would this be easier to delay to the ORTF
> > pair.
>
> > I am multi tracking to an Yamaha AW2400 recorder (8 tracks 24 bit) *I
> > invested in some quality mic cable.....(may have audition use of a
> > Focusrite ISA8 just to see how it influences the preamp stage (i will
> > use analogue outs on ISA8 & still use converters on Aw2400)....i will
> > be in a sports store to one side....headphones only.....peeping
> > through a crack for visuals.
>
> Other notes (all good above)
>
> In the Mozart requiem, the soprano and bass each sing once and the
> quartet all sing together once. *Favor the soprano and bass in your solo
> microphone placement.
>
> Make absolutely sure the PA is on during your rehearsal. *Those flying
> speakers can severely impact the mix hitting your flying mics.
>
> Knowing that you will record the hall, as Scott said, warn the
> recipients of the recording that it will sound like it was recorded in a
> a sports arena.
>
> Most arenas have HVAC systems to awaken the dead. *Who cares when the
> ambient noise level never falls below a dull roar? *You probably can't
> do anything about it--can't turn it off for a performance that long. *
> But look for vents and blowers and keep your mics away.

Thanks for these advices and insights......its the insights that got
me thinking!!

theres a place in my world for getting to grips with the 'try it
out..have a listen...make a judgement...make a call and so on...aspect
of this and all enterprises.

after all the gear has been analysed and pro's and conned....and of
course it matters.....i need to take responsibility after the
homeworks been done.

a big thank you for all who contributed and i will take heed and
indeed..."paddle my own canoe...."

p.s. rehearsal for this gig is on the afternoon of
performance....orchestra bussed in from london (international
conductor is school parent)...
choir meet orchestra 3pm on the day. for me it means all adjustments
overhead are completed on Friday night and i get one shot at
adjustments on the ground...i also suspect i will be way down the
pecking order for calling "a bit more of this and that please..." But
hey...it's still barrells of fun

I am going to: MC930 main ORTF X3 AKG C414xls as spot mics on
choir (try high up/facing down to reject flown monitors)
hire in x2 C414 for soloists (very close to main pair so may not need
much delay at all)
x1 'something' on the double bassess/cello section

Am i right in thinking (for argument if i used x2 spots on orchestra)
they become less of an issue (re: confused stereo image - delaying x2
stereo pairs) as they are used at a lower dB level in mix and
placement gets more local and direct sound from an area and hence has
less in way of multiple paths of sound to the capsule..?

cheers and sincere thanks (pss: all voluntary on my part....some
parents do salads and cakes....this is my contribution...a bit of a
long held dream)

[lewdslewrate]

On Apr 11, 6:44*am, lewdslewrate > wrote:
> On Apr 10, 7:13*pm, Carey Carlan > wrote:
>
> > lewdslewrate > wrote :
>
> > > On Apr 10, 5:10 pm, Frank Stearns >
> > > wrote:
> > >> (Scott Dorsey) writes:
> > >> >lewdslewrate > wrote:
> > >> >>x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
> > >> >>orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
> > >> >>voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3
> > >> >>level riser.
>
> > >> >>ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle
> > >> >>120 deg)
> > >> >>ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source
> > >> >>angle nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them
> > >> >>back a bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise
> > >> >>getting too much of orchestra.
> > >> >How much signal pickup will they have in common?
> > >> >>**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
> > >> >>different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am
> > >> >>i being too fussy?**
> > >> >Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will
> > >> >say that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for
> > >> >trouble in general. You can do it but you have to think about
> > >> >isolation. I think you are much better off trying to think about
> > >> >recording the room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the
> > >> >choir. You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording
> > >> >the room.
> > >> >>Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
> > >> >>mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra
> > >> >>and right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a
> > >> >>try?
> > >> >Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 10
> > > 0 Hz
> > >> >is nearly 360 degrees.
>
> > >> This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no
> > >> pun)
> > > regarding
> > >> each point.
>
> > >> Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir,
> > >> includ
> > > ing the
> > >> basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots
> > >> might be appropriate.
>
> > >> You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What
> > >> are t
> > > hey
> > >> performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will
> > >> alter
> > > *the
> > >> approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists,
> > >> large c
> > > hamber orch
> > >> -- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something
> > >> similar?)
>
> > >> BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to
> > >> live-
> > > mix this
> > >> to 2 track?
>
> > >> Here are some augmentation ideas for you:
>
> > >> - If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the
> > >> MG300, K
> > > M84 (maybe
> > >> even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be
> > >> shrill),
> > > you can put
> > >> them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but
> > >> then ti
> > > p them up
> > >> 30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing
> > >> the or
> > > chestra,
> > >> while the voice sound is going over them.
>
> > >> You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on
> > >> top
> > > *of the
> > >> back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics
> > >> that
> > > don't
> > >> destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.
>
> > >> - Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe
> > >> a fe
> > > w feet
> > >> higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with
> > >> omni
> > > s. This
> > >> double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the
> > >> roo
> > > m (if the
> > >> room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you
> > >> want
> > > *into the
> > >> ensemble v. how much room.
>
> > >> - You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original
> > >> note) if
> > > *you delay
> > >> the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with
> > >> mul
> > > tiple
> > >> acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might
> > >> not
> > > *work out.
> > >> Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb
> > >> filt
> > > ering of
> > >> all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately
> > >> 40
> > > ms).
>
> > >> And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.
>
> > >> >>A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
> > >> >>reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir.
> > >> >> H
> > > e
> > >> >>also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall..
> > >> >>The hall is a great sports hall!
> > >> >That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times h
> > > arder.
>
> > >> Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and
> > >> the
> > > tip-up of
> > >> the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene
> > >> and pu
> > > t a contact
> > >> mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack
> > >> of 6 channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...
>
> > >> I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach
> > >> sound good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)
>
> > >> >Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.
>
> > >> And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.
>
> > >> Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as
> > >> low a
> > > s
> > >> possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it..
>
> > >> Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate
> > >> dimen
> > > sions?
> > >> Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain
> > >> weird).
> > > Will the
> > >> choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how
> > >> far
> > > back is a
> > >> reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters
> > >> nearby
> > > ?
>
> > >> What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've
> > >> heard
> > > of it.
>
> > >> A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.
>
> > >> Frank
> > >> Mobile Audio
>
> > >> --
> > >> .
> > > Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
> > > opened...not completely finished. *rectangle shoe box with a arched
> > > roof.
>
> > > Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance)
> > > Lower walls: Plaster finished blockwork;
> > > Upper walls: Timber slatted panelling, ~25% open area, mineral fibre
> > > quilt
> > > behind;
> > > Roof: Perforated liner tray, 30mm Rockwool above.
>
> > > Approx 16m x 35m and high!
>
> > > Audience capacity 600 * * * * No acoustic shell for choir etc *D&B man
> > > adds early reflections as hall is deemed poor for tonal reference for
> > > singing. *Choristers complain they cannot hear themselves or anyone
> > > else...they had this problem in gloucester Cathedral but the
> > > atmosphere of event and 'big church' sound had a psychological effect
> > > and they got through great...in this sports hall they get little
> > > reference back to their own ears and they all hate it as a venue.
> > > There is a wicked slap back echo across the hall due to lower walls
> > > (they may put some drapes up on one side as advised but i am not
> > > holding my breath....its a real spaced out dubby hard as nails
> > > thing..and fast and loud...and with a Rolf Harris type of 'wobble
> > > board' sound for extra confusion *Great fun if your feeling like 12
> > > years old and you are on your own! * A less than ethereal
> > > reverberation mush pertains in upper reaches (aka 'swimming
> > > pool').....and intelligibility for speech diminishes rapidly as one
> > > moves away from another person.
>
> > > Mozarts requiem.
>
> > > Technical paraphinalia not appreciated so mics on stands in front of
> > > choir may not be allowed but i could configure some for the basses.
> > > Soloists x4 share 2 mics....i have only one more C414...if i cant loan
> > > one more it will be......sorry to share this.......my akg perception
> > > 420's cardioid with a mini screen behind....
>
> > > I chose MC930 ORTF to get a good stereo placement of orchestra
> > > instruments and some of the soloists. (originally purchased for
> > > Cathedral to cut out some of the 'room' as i had to place them quite a
> > > way back from the choir...again an orchestra in between.....acceptable
> > > result for school archive....learning curve for me) *I could put a
> > > cardioid spaced pair (flown C414XLS) in front of choir/
> > > overhead.....its a more general wash of sound so accurate placement is
> > > less critical (i think)......would this be easier to delay to the ORTF
> > > pair.
>
> > > I am multi tracking to an Yamaha AW2400 recorder (8 tracks 24 bit) *I
> > > invested in some quality mic cable.....(may have audition use of a
> > > Focusrite ISA8 just to see how it influences the preamp stage (i will
> > > use analogue outs on ISA8 & still use converters on Aw2400)....i will
> > > be in a sports store to one side....headphones only.....peeping
> > > through a crack for visuals.
>
> > Other notes (all good above)
>
> > In the Mozart requiem, the soprano and bass each sing once and the
> > quartet all sing together once. *Favor the soprano and bass in your solo
> > microphone placement.
>
> > Make absolutely sure the PA is on during your rehearsal. *Those flying
> > speakers can severely impact the mix hitting your flying mics.
>
> > Knowing that you will record the hall, as Scott said, warn the
> > recipients of the recording that it will sound like it was recorded in a
> > a sports arena.
>
> > Most arenas have HVAC systems to awaken the dead. *Who cares when the
> > ambient noise level never falls below a dull roar? *You probably can't
> > do anything about it--can't turn it off for a performance that long. *
> > But look for vents and blowers and keep your mics away.
>
> Thanks for these advices and insights......its the insights that got
> me thinking!!
>
> theres a place in my world for getting to grips with the 'try it
> out..have a listen...make a judgement...make a call and so on...aspect
> of this and all enterprises.
>
> after all the gear has been analysed and pro's and conned....and of
> course it matters.....i need to take responsibility after the
> homeworks been done.
>
> a big thank you for all who contributed and i will take heed and
> indeed..."paddle my own canoe...."
>
> p.s. *rehearsal for this gig is on the afternoon of
> performance....orchestra bussed in from london (international
> conductor is school parent)...
> choir meet orchestra 3pm on the day. *for me it means all adjustments
> overhead are completed on Friday night and i get one shot at
> adjustments on the ground...i also suspect i will be way down the
> pecking order for calling "a bit more of this and that please..." *But
> hey...it's still barrells of fun
>
> I am going to: MC930 main ORTF * * * *X3 AKG C414xls as spot mics on
> choir (try high up/facing down to reject flown monitors)
> hire in x2 C414 for soloists (very close to main pair so may not need
> much delay at all)
> x1 'something' on the double bassess/cello section
>
> Am i right in thinking (for argument if i used x2 spots on orchestra)
> they become less of an issue (re: confused stereo image - delaying x2
> stereo pairs) as they are used at a lower dB level in mix and
> placement gets more local and direct sound from an area and hence has
> less in way of multiple paths of sound to the capsule..?
>
> cheers and sincere thanks (pss: all voluntary on my part....some
> parents do salads and cakes....this is my contribution...a bit of a
> long held dream)

Sorry, i meant (for argument if i used x2 spots on choir.....)

[Frank Stearns]

lewdslewrate > writes:

Many snips...

>> > > Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
>> > > opened...not completely finished. =A0rectangle shoe box with a arched
>> > > roof.

Could be worse. Could be a cube!!

>> > > Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance=

Also could be worse. :)


>> > > Mozarts requiem.

Lovely piece; have not heard it for a quite a while.


>> > In the Mozart requiem, the soprano and bass each sing once and the
>> > quartet all sing together once. =A0Favor the soprano and bass in your s=
>olo
>> > microphone placement.

Probably a good idea; but it's good you have two solo mics.

>> > Make absolutely sure the PA is on during your rehearsal. =A0Those flyin=
>g
>> > speakers can severely impact the mix hitting your flying mics.

Yes, very good point.


>> > Knowing that you will record the hall, as Scott said, warn the
>> > recipients of the recording that it will sound like it was recorded in =
>a
>> > a sports arena.

You might get lucky and fool everybody.


>> > Most arenas have HVAC systems to awaken the dead. =A0Who cares when the
>> > ambient noise level never falls below a dull roar? =A0You probably can'=
>t
>> > do anything about it--can't turn it off for a performance that long. =
>=A0
>> > But look for vents and blowers and keep your mics away.

The MC930s are spec'd with an LF number to 40 hz, which probably means they start
rolling off around 100, and are down -10 or so at 40. This could be a good thing.

In post, you might sneak in a narrow bass boost that doesn't pump up HVAC, but helps
give an illusion of low-end -- of course, only do this if you feel things are a bit
bottom shy.

And, while we're there, you'll also be well-served in post to apply a very steep
high-pass up to 25-30 hz. This will help mitigate the mix nasties caused by HVAC
and room subsonics.


>> after all the gear has been analysed and pro's and conned....and of
>> course it matters.....i need to take responsibility after the
>> homeworks been done.
>>
>> a big thank you for all who contributed and i will take heed and
>> indeed..."paddle my own canoe...."


Seems like you're doing the best you can, given the box of parts you have to work
with. That's called engineering.

With the main pair pretty tight, three choral spots and two solo spots, you can
probably pull off something that will sound okay, possibly good, and if the
performers are really spot on, it might sound spectacular. (When the music is really
good, a few sonic dents and dings can be overlooked.)

Assuming the soloists have well-trained voices -- good enough to stay properly
placed with an orchestra and choir in an unamplified setting -- let the solo mics
"breathe" a bit; keep them 3-4 feet back from the soloists. With the SPL of trained
voices at that relatively close distance, you'll have reasonable isolation.

Getting "almost" close with solo spots to the main pair can cause some quirks,
particularly if the soloists are physically expressive and move back and forth, side
to side. The optimal time-alignment will shift. You can either push their delays out
of that completely, or use the DAW automation to ride the delay for you. Tedious,
though.

Give the soloists plenty of headroom, too; it's amazing how quickly a focused
soprano voice can demand 26 bits from a 24 bit system. :) You do have those 24
bits, give it a good amount of room. And don't let the rehearsal fool you; they
might kick out another 6+ dB during the performance.

Hopefully, your capture will be relatively dry to avoid room and PA issues.

Even though you're in a cavern, don't be afraid to try some reverb in post. Take
some time to craft that reverb so that it feels integrated and real, and not like
someone just turned up the echo knob.

>> Am i right in thinking (for argument if i used x2 spots on orchestra)
>> they become less of an issue (re: confused stereo image - delaying x2
>> stereo pairs) as they are used at a lower dB level in mix and
>> placement gets more local and direct sound from an area and hence has
>> less in way of multiple paths of sound to the capsule..?

Not sure I follow -- do you have three choral, two solos, two ORTF, plus two more
mics?

To answer the question as I read it, yes, with qualifications. Mostly, listen.

>Sorry, i meant (for argument if i used x2 spots on choir.....)

Oh - so you mean going from three choral mics to two? I'd probably want to stick
with three, maybe even four if the spread is as wide as you'd originally indicated
AND you're fighting that PA mess.

It's always easy (relatively speaking) to fake a lush choral sound from good spots
that are well-placed; but damn near impossible to do that if the spots are
"polluted" with another junk.

Good luck with it; let us know how it goes.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[lewdslewrate]

On Apr 11, 11:17*am, Frank Stearns >
wrote:
> lewdslewrate > writes:
>
> Many snips...
>
> >> > > Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
> >> > > opened...not completely finished. =A0rectangle shoe box with a arched
> >> > > roof.
>
> Could be worse. Could be a cube!!
>
> >> > > Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance=
>
> Also could be worse. :)
>
> >> > > Mozarts requiem.
>
> Lovely piece; have not heard it for a quite a while.
>
> >> > In the Mozart requiem, the soprano and bass each sing once and the
> >> > quartet all sing together once. =A0Favor the soprano and bass in your s=
> >olo
> >> > microphone placement.
>
> Probably a good idea; but it's good you have two solo mics.
>
> >> > Make absolutely sure the PA is on during your rehearsal. =A0Those flyin=
> >g
> >> > speakers can severely impact the mix hitting your flying mics.
>
> Yes, very good point.
>
> >> > Knowing that you will record the hall, as Scott said, warn the
> >> > recipients of the recording that it will sound like it was recorded in =
> >a
> >> > a sports arena.
>
> You might get lucky and fool everybody.
>
> >> > Most arenas have HVAC systems to awaken the dead. =A0Who cares when the
> >> > ambient noise level never falls below a dull roar? =A0You probably can'=
> >t
> >> > do anything about it--can't turn it off for a performance that long. =
> >=A0
> >> > But look for vents and blowers and keep your mics away.
>
> The MC930s are spec'd with an LF number to 40 hz, which probably means they start
> rolling off around 100, and are down -10 or so at 40. This could be a good thing.
>
> In post, you might sneak in a narrow bass boost that doesn't pump up HVAC, but helps
> give an illusion of low-end -- of course, only do this if you feel things are a bit
> bottom shy.
>
> And, while we're there, you'll also be well-served in post to apply a very steep
> high-pass up to 25-30 hz. This will help mitigate the mix nasties caused by HVAC
> and room subsonics.
>
> >> after all the gear has been analysed and pro's and conned....and of
> >> course it matters.....i need to take responsibility after the
> >> homeworks been done.
>
> >> a big thank you for all who contributed and i will take heed and
> >> indeed..."paddle my own canoe...."
>
> Seems like you're doing the best you can, given the box of parts you have to work
> with. That's called engineering.
>
> With the main pair pretty tight, three choral spots and two solo spots, you can
> probably pull off something that will sound okay, possibly good, and if the
> performers are really spot on, it might sound spectacular. (When the music is really
> good, a few sonic dents and dings can be overlooked.)
>
> Assuming the soloists have well-trained voices -- good enough to stay properly
> placed with an orchestra and choir in an unamplified setting -- let the solo mics
> "breathe" a bit; keep them 3-4 feet back from the soloists. With the SPL of trained
> voices at that relatively close distance, you'll have reasonable isolation.