Hybrid Amplifier question

[Molise]

Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design/
sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vincent
is 2x the price of Jolida.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

Molise wrote:
> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design/
> sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vincent
> is 2x the price of Jolida.

**Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over another?

Here are my thoughts:

* There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum tubes in
the low level sections over one using properly designed semiconductors,
unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws inherent to tubes (hum, noise,
distortion, microphonics, etc).
* If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier, then an
argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes as output
devices is acceptable.
* Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an appropriate
solution.

As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to listen
to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers, under blind
conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who use different
speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.

Your question opens a can of worms. I realise it has been popular to
criticise audio dealers for quite some time. They can, however, perform a
useful purpose (as opposed to buying unheard, from the 'net). If you
establish a relationship with a GOOD dealer, then that dealer will be happy
to loan you appropriate products, so you can make an intelligent choice.
Buying an audio product without first listening to it, is no different to
buying a car without first test driving it, or marrying a woman without
first, er, trying her cooking.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Audio Empire]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:10:16 -0800, Trevor Wilson wrote
(in article >):

> Molise wrote:
>> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
>> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design/
>> sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vincent
>> is 2x the price of Jolida.
>
> **Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over another?
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> * There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum tubes in
> the low level sections over one using properly designed semiconductors,
> unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws inherent to tubes (hum, noise,
> distortion, microphonics, etc).

Agreed. Tubes in the low-level section don't really "do anything" positive or
negative. Now, of you like the sound of tubes (and many people do) then go
for tubes in power amp, not the low level stages.


> * If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier, then an
> argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes as output
> devices is acceptable.

Agreed.

> * Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
> Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an appropriate
> solution.

Also true, but still, there is no reason in today's world to go with tubes at
all unlike you just happen to LIKE them.
>
> As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to listen
> to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers, under blind
> conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who use different
> speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.

Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new Harman
Kardon HK-990. It is a marvelous performing and very flexible unit. It is
also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it brings to the table.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

Audio Empire wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:10:16 -0800, Trevor Wilson wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> Molise wrote:
>>> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
>>> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best
>>> design/ sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs
>>> bipolar(Vincent). Vincent is 2x the price of Jolida.
>>
>> **Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over
>> another?
>>
>> Here are my thoughts:
>>
>> * There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum
>> tubes in the low level sections over one using properly designed
>> semiconductors, unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws
>> inherent to tubes (hum, noise, distortion, microphonics, etc).
>
> Agreed. Tubes in the low-level section don't really "do anything"
> positive or negative.

**Not so. All valves exhibit microphonics to some extent. This is, IMO, part
of the appeal for certain listeners. Microphonics is small amounts seems to
artificially enahance sound stage size. The other stuff (hum, noise,
distortion) can be dealt with, but usually requires considerably more effort
than a properly implemented SS stage.

Now, of you like the sound of tubes (and many
> people do) then go for tubes in power amp, not the low level stages.
>
>
>> * If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier,
>> then an argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes
>> as output devices is acceptable.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> * Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
>> Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an
>> appropriate solution.
>
> Also true, but still, there is no reason in today's world to go with
> tubes at all unlike you just happen to LIKE them.
>>
>> As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to
>> listen to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers,
>> under blind conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who
>> use different speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.
>
> Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new
> Harman Kardon HK-990. It is a marvelous performing and very flexible
> unit. It is also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it brings
> to the table.

**I've not tried that model HK. I've used the late model HK CD players and
find them to be excellent value for money.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Audio Empire]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:59:44 -0800, ScottW wrote
(in article >):

> On Mar 5, 8:22=A0pm, Audio Empire > wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:10:16 -0800, Trevor Wilson wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>> Molise wrote:
>>>> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
>>>> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design/
>>>> sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vincent
>>>> is 2x the price of Jolida.
>>
>>> **Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over another?
>>
>>> Here are my thoughts:
>>
>>> * There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum tubes in
>>> the low level sections over one using properly designed semiconductors,
>>> unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws inherent to tubes (hum, noise,
>>> distortion, microphonics, etc).
>>
>> Agreed. Tubes in the low-level section don't really "do anything" positive
>> or
>> negative. Now, of you like the sound of tubes (and many people do) then go
>> for tubes in power amp, not the low level stages.
>>
>>> * If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier, then an
>>> argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes as output
>>> devices is acceptable.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>> * Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
>>> Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an
>>> appropriate
>>> solution.
>>
>> Also true, but still, there is no reason in today's world to go with tubes
>> at
>> all unlike you just happen to LIKE them.
>>
>>
>>
>>> As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to listen
>>> to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers, under blind
>>> conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who use different
>>> speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.
>>
>> Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new Harman
>> Kardon HK-990. It is =A0a marvelous performing and very flexible unit. It is
>> also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it brings to the table.
>
> From the technical specs tab on H-K website
>
> Phono Input Yes, MM and MC.
>
> Why can't companies provide sufficient documentation of their
> products?
> So I download the pdf manual.
>
> Input sensitivity/impedance: 350mV/43k ohms (Tuner/CD)
> 10mV/47k ohms (Phono =96 MM)
> 1mV/100k ohms (Phono =96 MC)
>
> 100k for MC....are they kidding?


Kidding, no. Mistaken, yes. The manual for this amp is a complete joke. It
doesn't give you all the specs, and some that it does give, like the MC
loading is wrong (that should read 100 Ohms, not 100K Ohms according to an
engineer at H-K with whom I spoke). The manual also doesn't tell you how to
assign a high-level input to either the corresponding analog jacks on the
back, or one of the digital inputs but you can figure that out. It also
doesn't tell you what the built-in A to D converter is. I assumed it was
16/44.1, but it doesn't seem like it is. If I try to copy a DVD-A to CD for
instance, the output won't sync to the digital input on my CD recorder, but
if I try to copy an LP to CD, the digital output does lock to 16/44.1. Nobody
at H-K seemed to know for sure either.

On the other hand, the presence of built-in phono inputs, a 24/192
up-sampling D/A converter (with four user assignable inputs), SEVEN
high-level analog inputs, a built-in A/D converter, room/speaker calibration
software built-in (it even comes with a calibration microphone), separate
high-current power supplies for each channel (the amp section is rated at 150
Watts/channel and the power supply can instantaneously source 200 Amps of
current). All of this for $2500 seems to be quite a bargain in this day and
age.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Mar 6, 9:59=A0am, ScottW > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 8:22=A0pm, Audio Empire > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:10:16 -0800, Trevor Wilson wrote
> > (in article >):
>
> > > Molise wrote:
> > >> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
> > >> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design=
/
> > >> sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vince=
nt
> > >> is 2x the price of Jolida.
>
> > > **Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over anot=
her?
>
> > > Here are my thoughts:
>
> > > * There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum tub=
es in
> > > the low level sections over one using properly designed semiconductor=
s,
> > > unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws inherent to tubes (hum, =
noise,
> > > distortion, microphonics, etc).
>
> > Agreed. Tubes in the low-level section don't really "do anything" posit=
ive or
> > negative. Now, of you like the sound of tubes (and many people do) then=
go
> > for tubes in power amp, not the low level stages.
>
> > > * If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier, t=
hen an
> > > argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes as output
> > > devices is acceptable.
>
> > Agreed.
>
> > > * Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
> > > Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an appr=
opriate
> > > solution.
>
> > Also true, but still, there is no reason in today's world to go with tu=
bes at
> > all unlike you just happen to LIKE them.
>
> > > As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to l=
isten
> > > to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers, under bl=
ind
> > > conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who use differen=
t
> > > speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.
>
> > Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new Ha=
rman
> > Kardon HK-990. It is =A0a marvelous performing and very flexible unit. =
It is
> > also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it brings to the table.
>
> From the technical specs tab on H-K website
>
> Phono Input Yes, MM and MC.
>
> =A0 Why can't companies provide sufficient documentation of their
> products?
> So I download the pdf manual.
>
> Input sensitivity/impedance: 350mV/43k ohms (Tuner/CD)
> 10mV/47k ohms (Phono =96 MM)
> 1mV/100k ohms (Phono =96 MC)
>
> 100k for MC....are they kidding?
>

Must be a mistake. I'll bet dollars to donuts they meant 100 not 100k.
That is the optimal loading for my Koetsu Rosewood Signature. Of
course the smart thing is to have variable loading built into the
preamp. There is no single optimal loading for all MC cartridges. I
know others who actually prefer 47k for the Koetsu.

[Molise]

On Mar 6, 12:59=A0pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 8:22=A0pm, Audio Empire > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:10:16 -0800, Trevor Wilson wrote
> > (in article >):
>
> > > Molise wrote:
> > >> Looking at buying a hybrid integrated-- looked at Jolida 1501RC &
> > >> Vincent SV 226MK. Have been told that if buying a hybrid best design=
/
> > >> sound comes from Mosfet amplifier(Jolida) vs bipolar(Vincent). Vince=
nt
> > >> is 2x the price of Jolida.
>
> > > **Why? What are the reasons given for preferring one hybrid over anot=
her?
>
> > > Here are my thoughts:
>
> > > * There is no point is choosing an amplifier that employs vaccuum tub=
es in
> > > the low level sections over one using properly designed semiconductor=
s,
> > > unless one wishes to capitalise on the flaws inherent to tubes (hum, =
noise,
> > > distortion, microphonics, etc).
>
> > Agreed. Tubes in the low-level section don't really "do anything" posit=
ive or
> > negative. Now, of you like the sound of tubes (and many people do) then=
go
> > for tubes in power amp, not the low level stages.
>
> > > * If any advantages can be ascribed to using tubes in an amplifier, t=
hen an
> > > argument could be mounted to suggest that using those tubes as output
> > > devices is acceptable.
>
> > Agreed.
>
> > > * Valves are a better match with MOSFETs than with BJTs (Bipolar
> > > Transistors), though sensible design should be able to effect an appr=
opriate
> > > solution.
>
> > Also true, but still, there is no reason in today's world to go with tu=
bes at
> > all unlike you just happen to LIKE them.
>
> > > As with all such things, the best way to choose an amplifier, is to l=
isten
> > > to a selection of appropriate amplifiers with YOUR speakers, under bl=
ind
> > > conditions. Asking people you've never met, or those who use differen=
t
> > > speakers to yours, is a recipe for a bad result.
>
> > Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new Ha=
rman
> > Kardon HK-990. It is =A0a marvelous performing and very flexible unit. =
It is
> > also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it brings to the table.
>
> From the technical specs tab on H-K website
>
> Phono Input Yes, MM and MC.
>
> =A0 Why can't companies provide sufficient documentation of their
> products?
> So I download the pdf manual.
>
> Input sensitivity/impedance: 350mV/43k ohms (Tuner/CD)
> 10mV/47k ohms (Phono =96 MM)
> 1mV/100k ohms (Phono =96 MC)
>
> 100k for MC....are they kidding?
>
> ScottW- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Appreciate the replies. I know that listening is the best way and my
dealer has asked me to bring in my speakers or take home a couple
amps. Also have 30 days after purchase to return if not satisfied. So
what I hear being said is with today's technology no need to buy tubes
unless I have a strong preference for the sound and that Mosfet amp is
a better match with tube preamp in the hybrid. I did read about the HK
but not for $2200 My budget is capped at 1500.

[Ubakov1982]

äà,õîðîøî. êëàäó 5.

[Audio Empire]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:02:48 -0800, ScottW wrote
(in article >):

> On Mar 6, 12:35=A0pm, Audio Empire > wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:59:44 -0800, ScottW wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>> On Mar 5, 8:22=3DA0pm, Audio Empire > wrote:
>
> [quoted text deleted -- deb]
>
>>>> Let me suggest an integrated amp to put on one's short list: The new
>>>> Harman Kardon HK-990. It is =3DA0a marvelous performing and very
>>>> flexible unit. It is also somewhat of a bargain - considering what it
>>>> brings to the table.
>>
>>> From the technical specs tab on H-K website
>>
>>> Phono Input Yes, MM and MC.
>>
>>> Why can't companies provide sufficient documentation of their
>>> products?
>>> So I download the pdf manual.
>>
>>> Input sensitivity/impedance: 350mV/43k ohms (Tuner/CD)
>>> 10mV/47k ohms (Phono =3D96 MM)
>>> 1mV/100k ohms (Phono =3D96 MC)
>>
>>> 100k for MC....are they kidding?
>>
>> Kidding, no. Mistaken, yes. The manual for this amp is a complete joke. It
>> doesn't give you all the specs, and some that it does give, like the MC
>> loading is wrong (that should read 100 Ohms, not 100K Ohms according to an
>> engineer at H-K with whom I spoke). The manual also doesn't tell you how to
>> assign a high-level input to either the corresponding analog jacks on the
>> back, or one of the digital inputs but you can figure that out. It also
>> doesn't tell you what the built-in A to D converter is. I assumed it was
>> 16/44.1, but it doesn't seem like it is. If I try to copy a DVD-A to CD for
>> instance, the output won't sync to the digital input on my CD recorder, but
>> if I try to copy an LP to CD, the digital output does lock to 16/44.1.
>> Nobody
>> at H-K seemed to know for sure either.
>
> Sounds like the usual block of copying digital sources to me.
> None of my receivers will provide digital record outputs from a
> digital source.


H-K says it will output to 24/96 and the manual says nothing. But you could
be very correct here. Or, perhaps it outputs digitally what it inputs
(16/44.1 in, 16/44.1 out; 16/48 in, 16/48 out; 24/96 in, 24.96 out, etc) . I
don't know.

> Some won't even provide analog outputs for recording from a digital
> source but all will support record out from analog sources.

This one will provide analog outputs from a digital source, that I was able
to check!

>> On the other hand, the presence of =A0built-in phono inputs, a 24/192
>> up-sampling D/A converter (with four user assignable inputs), SEVEN
>> high-level analog inputs, a built-in A/D converter, room/speaker calibration
>> software built-in (it even comes with a calibration microphone), separate
>> high-current power supplies for each channel (the amp section is rated at
>> 150
>> Watts/channel and the power supply can instantaneously source 200 Amps of
>> current). All of this for $2500 seems to be quite a bargain in this day and
>> age.
>
> Instantaneous specs are about as meaningful as the 4th generation
> Real-Time Linear Smoothing.

It shows that it has a robust power supply, nothing else. I'll say this. The
two toroidal transformers are impressivly huge.