Peter Larsen[_3_]
March 4th 11, 05:42 PM
Hi Nate,
Nate Najar wrote:
> How would you record the group?
Remember Scott's frequent suggestion of getting a good main pair image to
build on. That is the very reason why I started out with a PA concept, to
get a good recording you do need a good room sound with a usable balance
between the instruments. To overstate and oversimply: the bleed has to be
well sounding.
I'd put the main pair closer "a la Scott" so as to get the stereo image from
it tighter than I perceive you have aimed for it to be as an ambience pair
and I'd move the drumkit mic in front o the kit, a couple of feet in front
of it and below the highest cymbals. Bass sounds fine with your
dpa's on them, guitar too, but I hear you and Ty say that the DPA is too
willing to hear also everything else.
It is probably fine and well to use the pickup as basis for a monitor sound
for yourself, but I keep coming back to using either a KSM 141/137 or a
Neumann 102, based on my experience with the former and Ty's files with the
latter as recording spot mic and PA front mic for the guitar.
> The biggest difficulty is that this instrumentation does not exist in
> nature- the classical guitar is way too quiet to play acoustically
> with bass and drums.
Yes and too quiet too to play with a full symphony orchestra, but Rodriguez
made that work.
> It's not like a piano. That dpa mic I clipped
> the the guitar at least gets close enough to pick up enough guitar
> for the mix. It's still not ideal- but at least the mic gets a true
> representation of the guitar so it doesn't need surgery.
I don't want to second guess a track that I haven't heard. Please do not
read me as critizing your recording, the result remains good, you asked how
I would do it.
> I'm still
> not convinced shoving a lav inside the guitar isn't the right thing
> to do, but so far my attempts have required eq surgery and still
> sound like the inside of the instrument!
It is not all that different from using a pickup, many problems are the
same, you get the wood sound and the string eigentones, but you do not get
the finger sound and I don't think you get the rotational vibration mode
sounds properly.
> And the pickup track is out of the question. Not an option.
Haven't tried it, but there are people who get away with using a pickup for
tones and a condenser for overtones.
> For the gig, the instrument's pickup is fed to a small amplifier and
> sound system. It's a terrible sound but the only real option for a
> gig.
I beg to differ, for ultimate recording quality you need to have good basis
sound from all instruments. The alternative to the dpa could be to use a
Neumann 102 real close, some of the time the dpa-stuff is too clean because
the instrument sound is not linear that close to the instrument, the Neumann
colourations may be just what works, also for PA. I have heard great PA on a
pair of classical guitars, condensor mics and a pair of Tannoy 12" coax.
> Obviously in a proper studio with an iso booth and headphones I can
> record no problem, but I've always struggled to find some sort of
> live representation- and I really want to iron it out!
You're not all that far away from it, to sum it up: improve the sound of the
amplicatio of the guitar and you're quite likely to have the recording
"done" using the concept you used. The ensemble is a chamber music ensemble,
so my approach would be a la chamber music recording with spot microphones
added to the mix to fix a direct-to-reflected ratio that was too wet. That
approach has the main pair delivering the stereo perspective and - when I
use it - the spot microhone(s) delayed as much as required for their
contribution to arrive late in the "haas window" after the main pair
contribution.
> N
Your mileage may vary from 0 to infinity, all of the above is just theory
based on marginal knowledge of the setup, I have made careful plans
previously and plain discarded them on site and improvised something else,
either because of room logistics or because the ensemble shuffled itself
around. For a balanced recording you need to get the ensemble balanced and
well sounding so that the room sound is well balanced.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Nate Najar wrote:
> How would you record the group?
Remember Scott's frequent suggestion of getting a good main pair image to
build on. That is the very reason why I started out with a PA concept, to
get a good recording you do need a good room sound with a usable balance
between the instruments. To overstate and oversimply: the bleed has to be
well sounding.
I'd put the main pair closer "a la Scott" so as to get the stereo image from
it tighter than I perceive you have aimed for it to be as an ambience pair
and I'd move the drumkit mic in front o the kit, a couple of feet in front
of it and below the highest cymbals. Bass sounds fine with your
dpa's on them, guitar too, but I hear you and Ty say that the DPA is too
willing to hear also everything else.
It is probably fine and well to use the pickup as basis for a monitor sound
for yourself, but I keep coming back to using either a KSM 141/137 or a
Neumann 102, based on my experience with the former and Ty's files with the
latter as recording spot mic and PA front mic for the guitar.
> The biggest difficulty is that this instrumentation does not exist in
> nature- the classical guitar is way too quiet to play acoustically
> with bass and drums.
Yes and too quiet too to play with a full symphony orchestra, but Rodriguez
made that work.
> It's not like a piano. That dpa mic I clipped
> the the guitar at least gets close enough to pick up enough guitar
> for the mix. It's still not ideal- but at least the mic gets a true
> representation of the guitar so it doesn't need surgery.
I don't want to second guess a track that I haven't heard. Please do not
read me as critizing your recording, the result remains good, you asked how
I would do it.
> I'm still
> not convinced shoving a lav inside the guitar isn't the right thing
> to do, but so far my attempts have required eq surgery and still
> sound like the inside of the instrument!
It is not all that different from using a pickup, many problems are the
same, you get the wood sound and the string eigentones, but you do not get
the finger sound and I don't think you get the rotational vibration mode
sounds properly.
> And the pickup track is out of the question. Not an option.
Haven't tried it, but there are people who get away with using a pickup for
tones and a condenser for overtones.
> For the gig, the instrument's pickup is fed to a small amplifier and
> sound system. It's a terrible sound but the only real option for a
> gig.
I beg to differ, for ultimate recording quality you need to have good basis
sound from all instruments. The alternative to the dpa could be to use a
Neumann 102 real close, some of the time the dpa-stuff is too clean because
the instrument sound is not linear that close to the instrument, the Neumann
colourations may be just what works, also for PA. I have heard great PA on a
pair of classical guitars, condensor mics and a pair of Tannoy 12" coax.
> Obviously in a proper studio with an iso booth and headphones I can
> record no problem, but I've always struggled to find some sort of
> live representation- and I really want to iron it out!
You're not all that far away from it, to sum it up: improve the sound of the
amplicatio of the guitar and you're quite likely to have the recording
"done" using the concept you used. The ensemble is a chamber music ensemble,
so my approach would be a la chamber music recording with spot microphones
added to the mix to fix a direct-to-reflected ratio that was too wet. That
approach has the main pair delivering the stereo perspective and - when I
use it - the spot microhone(s) delayed as much as required for their
contribution to arrive late in the "haas window" after the main pair
contribution.
> N
Your mileage may vary from 0 to infinity, all of the above is just theory
based on marginal knowledge of the setup, I have made careful plans
previously and plain discarded them on site and improvised something else,
either because of room logistics or because the ensemble shuffled itself
around. For a balanced recording you need to get the ensemble balanced and
well sounding so that the room sound is well balanced.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen