TV audio -- entering the loudness wars

[Mark]

I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have the
audio compressed to the max,,, even my wife noticed it..

Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now now EVERYTHING is
squashed.

At least before I could mute the commercials, now I have to mute
everything and read the closed captions... :-) or just turn it off...

Is this an example of unintended consequences with the new govt' regs?


Mark

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark > wrote:
>I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have the
>audio compressed to the max,,, even my wife noticed it..
>
>Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now now EVERYTHING is
>squashed.

How are you watching it?

Because.... the studio compresses the signal... then the network compresses
the signal... then the local affiliate compresses the signal... then the
local cable system compresses the signal.

Video people use AGC so they don't actually have to set and ride gains.
It's a small step from that to using faster compression.

>At least before I could mute the commercials, now I have to mute
>everything and read the closed captions... :-) or just turn it off...
>
>Is this an example of unintended consequences with the new govt' regs?

No, it's been this awful since I was a kid at least.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[ChrisCoaster]

On Feb 20, 12:12*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Mark > wrote:
> >I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have the
> >audio compressed to the max,,, * even my wife noticed it..
>
> >Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now *now EVERYTHING is
> >squashed.
>
> How are you watching it?
>
> Because.... the studio compresses the signal... then the network compresses
> the signal... then the local affiliate compresses the signal... then the
> local cable system compresses the signal.
>
> Video people use AGC so they don't actually have to set and ride gains.
> It's a small step from that to using faster compression.
>
> >At least before I could mute the commercials, *now I have to mute
> >everything and read the closed captions... :-) *or just turn it off...
>
> >Is this an example of unintended consequences with the new govt' regs?
>
> No, it's been this awful since I was a kid at least.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
__________________
This discussion should include decision makers at your local
affiliates, cable providers, or if you live near one, the nearest
major network anchor. Once consumers complain and threaten to cut off
their subscriptions to pay TV - they'll listen.

Certainly, a channel-to-channel standard should be established so you
don't get blasted going from one to another, but 1,000Googol:1 ratio
compression is not the answer!

This brings to light an experiment I conducted. I played a high-
bitrate mp3 of "No Reply at All" by Genesis ripped from their album on
repeat for an hour at avg. 85dB, and felt the top of my stereo amp.
It was warm. The next day(allowing time for the amp to cool off) - I
played a severely compressed high-bitrate mp3 I created of that same
song, in Audacity, for an hour, at the same volume level, and the top
of my amp nearly burned my f#*king HAND!

'nuff said...

-CC

-CC

[Bill Graham]

ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Feb 20, 12:12 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> Mark > wrote:
>>> I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have
>>> the audio compressed to the max,,, even my wife noticed it..
>>
>>> Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now now EVERYTHING is
>>> squashed.
>>
>> How are you watching it?
>>
>> Because.... the studio compresses the signal... then the network
>> compresses the signal... then the local affiliate compresses the
>> signal... then the local cable system compresses the signal.
>>
>> Video people use AGC so they don't actually have to set and ride
>> gains. It's a small step from that to using faster compression.
>>
>>> At least before I could mute the commercials, now I have to mute
>>> everything and read the closed captions... :-) or just turn it
>>> off...
>>
>>> Is this an example of unintended consequences with the new govt'
>>> regs?
>>
>> No, it's been this awful since I was a kid at least.
>> --scott
>>
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
> __________________
> This discussion should include decision makers at your local
> affiliates, cable providers, or if you live near one, the nearest
> major network anchor. Once consumers complain and threaten to cut off
> their subscriptions to pay TV - they'll listen.
>
> Certainly, a channel-to-channel standard should be established so you
> don't get blasted going from one to another, but 1,000Googol:1 ratio
> compression is not the answer!

Isn't that what these "audio exciters" do....Rexpand compressed signals?

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham > wrote:
>Isn't that what these "audio exciters" do....Rexpand compressed signals?

No. Remember your freshman information theory class? Once information is
lost, it cannot be regenerated.

When you compress a signal you are losing information about the original
level, because a compressor is not a 1:1 system. (Okay, there is a special
case of a compressor designed for noise reduction that is actually a 1:1
system but normal compressors are not 1:1). So you cannot undo compression.

The exciters just add high order even harmonics to make things sound
brighter, so after you have ruined your high end with a compressor set
too fast, you can make it shrieky.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark]

On Feb 20, 12:12*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Mark > wrote:
> >I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have the
> >audio compressed to the max,,, * even my wife noticed it..
>
> >Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now *now EVERYTHING is
> >squashed.
>
> How are you watching it?
>
>

via Comcast Cable/via the local NBC station...

but the audio is ok on most of the other NBC programs I watch via the
same chain, the Chris Mathews show was squashed to the point that it
gave me a headache, (yeah the content was too)

a lot of it had to be in the orignal production of the show..

Mark

[William Sommerwerck]

> When you compress a signal you are losing information
> about the original level, because a compressor is not a 1:1
> system.

I think Messrs Dolby and Blackmer would disagree.

[g]

On Feb 20, 12:12*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Mark > wrote:
> >I'm watching the morning political talk shows on NBC and they have the
> >audio compressed to the max,,, * even my wife noticed it..
>
> >Ok, so the commercials are no louder, but now *now EVERYTHING is
> >squashed.
>
> How are you watching it?
>
> Because.... the studio compresses the signal... then the network compresses
> the signal... then the local affiliate compresses the signal... then the
> local cable system compresses the signal.
>
> Video people use AGC so they don't actually have to set and ride gains.
> It's a small step from that to using faster compression.
>
> >At least before I could mute the commercials, *now I have to mute
> >everything and read the closed captions... :-) *or just turn it off...
>
> >Is this an example of unintended consequences with the new govt' regs?
>
> No, it's been this awful since I was a kid at least.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Last year tried to contact people from Fox, local hockey broadcast.
I don't know for sure if its just the cable or Fox. Every time the
puck was
hit, the broadcasters voices would drop way down. It was and is very
annoying.
Not a problem on other channels.

greg

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck > wrote:
>> When you compress a signal you are losing information
>> about the original level, because a compressor is not a 1:1
>> system.
>
>I think Messrs Dolby and Blackmer would disagree.

You clipped out the next sentence in which I specifically mentioned that
as being an unusual special case of the compressor.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bill Graham > wrote:
>> Isn't that what these "audio exciters" do....Rexpand compressed
>> signals?
>
> No. Remember your freshman information theory class? Once
> information is lost, it cannot be regenerated.
>
> When you compress a signal you are losing information about the
> original level, because a compressor is not a 1:1 system. (Okay,
> there is a special case of a compressor designed for noise reduction
> that is actually a 1:1 system but normal compressors are not 1:1).
> So you cannot undo compression.
>
> The exciters just add high order even harmonics to make things sound
> brighter, so after you have ruined your high end with a compressor set
> too fast, you can make it shrieky.
> --scott

Thanks.... I have often wondered what those things do. You can read the
catalogs until the cows come home, but they won't tell you anything outside
of their advertising hype.....

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham > wrote:
>
>Thanks.... I have often wondered what those things do. You can read the
>catalogs until the cows come home, but they won't tell you anything outside
>of their advertising hype.....

I would consider a good introduction to audio technology like "Technique Of
The Sound Studio" by Nisbett. His book on microphones is good too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bill Graham > wrote:
>>
>> Thanks.... I have often wondered what those things do. You can read
>> the catalogs until the cows come home, but they won't tell you
>> anything outside of their advertising hype.....
>
> I would consider a good introduction to audio technology like
> "Technique Of The Sound Studio" by Nisbett. His book on microphones
> is good too. --scott

Trouble is, he would have to come out with a new edition every year in order
to keep up with the boys in Madison Avenue who are pushing all that junk to
the buying public. Every time I get a new catalog I find some new chassis
that purports to make my sounds better without actually telling me just what
it does...:^)

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Bill Graham > wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks.... I have often wondered what those things do. You can read
>>> the catalogs until the cows come home, but they won't tell you
>>> anything outside of their advertising hype.....
>>
>> I would consider a good introduction to audio technology like
>> "Technique Of The Sound Studio" by Nisbett. His book on microphones
>> is good too. --scott
>
>Trouble is, he would have to come out with a new edition every year in order
>to keep up with the boys in Madison Avenue who are pushing all that junk to
>the buying public. Every time I get a new catalog I find some new chassis
>that purports to make my sounds better without actually telling me just what
>it does...:^)

It's all the same junk that folks were selling thirty years ago, just with
different marketing attached. The marketing changes much faster than the
technology.

You need to stop reading marketing trash and actually read about audio,
though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."