DILEMMA: Cleaning vinyl records with "Fantastik"??

[XYLOPHONE]

Hi,
I have been collecting records for several years now, and another
record collector who sells to me suggested me a few months ago:
HIM - Well, you can also clean them with Fantastik domestic cleaner,
they turn out great, it sometimes eliminates crackling sounds produced
sometimes by cigarette smoke or other dirt accumulated.
ME - Can doing this harm the vinyl in any way?
HIM - No. It doesn't alter vinyl.
ME - Are you absolutely sure?
HIM - Yes.

We're talking here almost exclusively about 45s. I've always used a
mixture of 75% demineralized water and 25% alcohol to clean records
with just dust or very little dirt.

However, since his advice I've started to do the following cleaning
steps for records with more dirt, convinced I'd obtain the best
possible playback results afterwards:

1- I spray some FantastiK on each side, spreading the product on the
whole surface with my finger. Sometimes, depending on the kind of dirt
(I guess), I feel the surface becoming warm

2- I set the record flat for 5 to 10 minutes. not more.

3- I put a bit of alcohol/demineralized water mix on a soft cloth and
wipe the record to remove most of the Fantastik along with dirt. I
watch my cloth to see what I remove. Sometimes it gets brown, or dark
if there was cigarette smoke.

4- I thoroughly rinse the record with tap water until I can feel with
my hands that all the residual product is removed.

5- I remove most of water with a towel.

6- I use a clean cloth, to wipe the record again with the 75%/25%
demineralized water/alcohol, to make sure to remove residues from tap
water.

7- I let the record air dry at least 2 minutes. I make sure it's
totally dry before I play it.

I've been buying records from him, and doing these steps for the vast
majority of the 45s I add to my collection.

Yesterday, I've listened to some clean records, NOT cleaned with
Fantastik, and some that went through my 7 steps above. I noticed in
the latter, although I got rid of most or all crackling, I felt
precision range of sounds not as wide.

Visually, the vinyl cleaned with Fantastik steps tends to be more
shiny, less dark.

I'm in a dilemma, and I'm starting to put the 7 Fantastik steps into
question as if it doesn't remove a bit of quality or "sharpness" from
vinyl along with the dirt, OR if the record was simply worn out that
way under the dirt.

I did many records that 7-step way, so I hope I didn't weaken the
performances.

Please share your comments, or any experiments done with part or all
of my cleaning method.

Thanks.
Luc

[David[_21_]]

"XYLOPHONE" > wrote in message
...
> 1- I spray some FantastiK on each side, spreading the product on the
> whole surface with my finger. Sometimes, depending on the kind of dirt
> (I guess), I feel the surface becoming warm

You feel it getting warm!?!?!?!?!?! STOP!
What on Earth is Fantastik and what does it have in it?

[XYLOPHONE]

On Oct 27, 12:25=A0pm, "David" > wrote:
> "XYLOPHONE" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > 1- I spray some FantastiK on each side, spreading the product on the
> > whole surface with my finger. Sometimes, depending on the kind of dirt
> > (I guess), I feel the surface becoming warm
>
> You feel it getting warm!?!?!?!?!?! STOP!
> What on Earth is Fantastik and what does it have in it?

Fantastik is a domestic all-purpose household cleaner, at least here
in Canada. There is ammonia in it, but also other chemicals. It's
meant to be a cleaner for virtually anything in the house and
dissolves grease, smoke particles.

Oh. it got warm on several records (ouch!), particularly on the ones
with a thick layer of dirt stuck on.

Records with less dirt or almost no dirt didn't get warm though.

You can be sure I stopped using Fantastik for now, until I'm 100% sure
it's harmless to vinyl. If it turns out not to be, I'll tell my
friend, and try to convince him again.

My concern is more about the records I already did it on, hoping they
were not affected during the process.
Some are quite valuable. For example, I bought a $325 copy of
Underworld "Go away" on Regency (rare Canadian group). And at that
price the condition was VG-. A Near Mint copy can be worth near $1000.
The seller mentioned there is a background noise.
I took a chance and bought it, thinking I might improve it with
Fantastik treatment.

I played it after a regular cleaning only with 25%/75% alcohol/
demineralised water and I noticed lots of crackling as background
noise
I even recorded that play to CrO2 cassette.

I dared doing the 7 Fantastik steps, very carefully, not leaving
product too long. A little bit of brown got on my white cloth while
removing Fantastik with dirt.

After I played it, and background crackling was gone!! There was still
many pops due to VG- condition (lots of scuffs and small scratches)

I recorded that post-Fantastik play again on the same cassette, using
same recording level and same stylus.

I listened much to both plays successively on the cassette to compare,
and the treated play was clearer, no background crackling, but the
music sounds a bit more "from far" than the untreated play.

I'm just hoping that the sense of "more richness" that was there
before cleaning was due to the dirt itself, and theoritically one
could re-dirt it the same way to get back that same sound.

Luc

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:15:38 -0700, XYLOPHONE wrote
(in article >):

> Hi,
> I have been collecting records for several years now, and another
> record collector who sells to me suggested me a few months ago:
> HIM - Well, you can also clean them with Fantastik domestic cleaner,
> they turn out great, it sometimes eliminates crackling sounds produced
> sometimes by cigarette smoke or other dirt accumulated.
> ME - Can doing this harm the vinyl in any way?
> HIM - No. It doesn't alter vinyl.
> ME - Are you absolutely sure?
> HIM - Yes.
>
> We're talking here almost exclusively about 45s. I've always used a
> mixture of 75% demineralized water and 25% alcohol to clean records
> with just dust or very little dirt.
>
> However, since his advice I've started to do the following cleaning
> steps for records with more dirt, convinced I'd obtain the best
> possible playback results afterwards:
>
> 1- I spray some FantastiK on each side, spreading the product on the
> whole surface with my finger. Sometimes, depending on the kind of dirt
> (I guess), I feel the surface becoming warm
>
> 2- I set the record flat for 5 to 10 minutes. not more.
>
> 3- I put a bit of alcohol/demineralized water mix on a soft cloth and
> wipe the record to remove most of the Fantastik along with dirt. I
> watch my cloth to see what I remove. Sometimes it gets brown, or dark
> if there was cigarette smoke.
>
> 4- I thoroughly rinse the record with tap water until I can feel with
> my hands that all the residual product is removed.
>
> 5- I remove most of water with a towel.
>
> 6- I use a clean cloth, to wipe the record again with the 75%/25%
> demineralized water/alcohol, to make sure to remove residues from tap
> water.
>
> 7- I let the record air dry at least 2 minutes. I make sure it's
> totally dry before I play it.
>
> I've been buying records from him, and doing these steps for the vast
> majority of the 45s I add to my collection.
>
> Yesterday, I've listened to some clean records, NOT cleaned with
> Fantastik, and some that went through my 7 steps above. I noticed in
> the latter, although I got rid of most or all crackling, I felt
> precision range of sounds not as wide.
>
> Visually, the vinyl cleaned with Fantastik steps tends to be more
> shiny, less dark.
>
> I'm in a dilemma, and I'm starting to put the 7 Fantastik steps into
> question as if it doesn't remove a bit of quality or "sharpness" from
> vinyl along with the dirt, OR if the record was simply worn out that
> way under the dirt.
>
> I did many records that 7-step way, so I hope I didn't weaken the
> performances.
>
> Please share your comments, or any experiments done with part or all
> of my cleaning method.
>
> Thanks.
> Luc
>

I simply can't imagine what the Fantastik could be physically doing to the
record which would alter it's sound. Obviously, if you even THINK it;s
damaging the records, you should stop using it immediately. As I have said
here several times, I have found (the hard way) that there are really only a
couple of ways to safely and effectively clean records:

1) A wet wash using a mild surficant, followed by vacuuming all the liquid
from the record surface using a Keith Monks, VPI, or Nitty-Gritty type record
vacuum machine.

2) Use the "Reg Williamson LP Rejuvenator Kit" gel system from Old Colony
Sound. Mix the Reg Williamson "goo" according to directions. Spread a thin
film of the stuff on the record side (avoiding the label area), let it dry,
and then peel the dry film off of the record surface using a piece of Scotch
tape leaving a perfectly clean, dry and new-looking record surface in it's
wake. IMHO, this system works better than ANYTHING, even the wet vacuum
systems and it's cheap to boot!

http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/products/km-9.htm

[Greg Berchin[_3_]]

Try a couple of experiments:

1. Use your 7-step method on a pane of clear glass. Afterward, try to look
through the glass. Do you see Fantastik residue on the glass? Then you'll hear
Fantastik residue on the vinyl.

2. Treat half of a record by your 7-step method. By "half" I mean half of one
side -- 180° of rotation. If your method really removes surface noise, then
when you play the record you should hear about one second of surface noise,
followed by about one second of silence, repeated again and again as the
cartridge traces over untreated and treated regions, respectively.

[XYLOPHONE]

On Oct 27, 7:50=A0pm, Greg Berchin > wrote:
> Try a couple of experiments:
>
> 1. =A0Use your 7-step method on a pane of clear glass. =A0Afterward, try =
to look
> through the glass. =A0Do you see Fantastik residue on the glass? =A0Then =
you'll hear
> Fantastik residue on the vinyl.
>
> 2. =A0Treat half of a record by your 7-step method. =A0By "half" I mean h=
alf of one
> side -- 180=B0 of rotation. =A0If your method really removes surface nois=
e, then
> when you play the record you should hear about one second of surface nois=
e,
> followed by about one second of silence, repeated again and again as the
> cartridge traces over untreated and treated regions, respectively.

Thanks for your tip.

However, if you read my post correctly, you'll see that I have no
doubt Fantastik does remove background noise if it's due to dirt
accumulation, but my concern is whether or not my 7-step method also
removes a bit of vinyl itself, which would lower sound quality.

Yesterday, I listened again to both treated and non-treated records,
all of them as clean as possible. I noticed if my 7-step does remove
quality, it's *very, very little*, almost unperceivable. However, I
don't want to lose that *very, very little* because I feel we also
listen with the body when it's analog media.

Thanks again for the 180 degree tip. I'll try it on a worthless 45 (no
LP to risk for now). So then I should successively hear about 3/5th of
a second periods of treated and non-treated areas. I'll also try it on
a record w/o background noise, to see if I hear a difference in the
quality of sound...

Luc

[Andrew Barss[_2_]]

Audio Empire > wrote:
:>
:> Yesterday, I've listened to some clean records, NOT cleaned with
:> Fantastik, and some that went through my 7 steps above. I noticed in
:> the latter, although I got rid of most or all crackling, I felt
:> precision range of sounds not as wide.
:>
:> Visually, the vinyl cleaned with Fantastik steps tends to be more
:> shiny, less dark.
:>
:> I'm in a dilemma, and I'm starting to put the 7 Fantastik steps into
:> question as if it doesn't remove a bit of quality or "sharpness" from
:> vinyl along with the dirt, OR if the record was simply worn out that
:> way under the dirt.
:>
:> I did many records that 7-step way, so I hope I didn't weaken the
:> performances.
:>
:> Please share your comments, or any experiments done with part or all
:> of my cleaning method.
:>
:> Thanks.
:> Luc
:>

: I simply can't imagine what the Fantastik could be physically doing to the
: record which would alter it's sound. Obviously, if you even THINK it;s
: damaging the records, you should stop using it immediately.


Here is a link to the MSDS for the product:

http://www.maskedflowerimages.com/fantastik.html

It's amild household degreaser and surfactant (like 409, Simple Green,etc.).
The formula and ingredients are proprietary. But it does caution against
using on "non-urethane varnishes". Since it's primarily a household cleaner,
the varnishes in question would be furniture ones -- which one(s) get attacked by Fantastik
is anyone's guess. Any true varnish contains some sort of resin, and many include a cross-linking
(polymerizing) oil, thiugh a lot of modern ones do not. Not clear if the Fantastik
degrades (a) the pil in oil-basedd varnish, (b) some resins, or (c) both.

Non-urethane varnishes include (with a liberal interpretation of "varnish", but
all the below are used on furniture):
-- shellac, which dissolves in ammonia and alcohol;
-- traditional alkyd (oil and resin) varnishes, which contain
various natural resins (copal, amber, sandarac, etc.). These are unlikely to be found
nowadays except on antiques and musical instruments.
-- lacquer, some types of which are soluble in lacquer thinner.
--There are also vinyl- and melamine-based varnishes, and several acrylic varnishes.

So it could be ammonia, butyl, or alcohol. What type of vinyl are records made from, exactly?
Is the vinyl a liquid prior to pressing, or a soft solid?

-- Andy Barss

[Kele]

On Oct 27, 5:15=A0am, XYLOPHONE > wrote:
> Luc

----------------------

By way of automotive detailing, I discovered microfiber cloths and
then the good ones. I get mine from PakShak.com, the thick "Big-Boy"
blue ones are thick and dense and best I've found for cleaning records
( http://www.pakshak.com/big-boy-ultra-microband-plush-micro-fiber-towel-16=
x16-1.html)
A spray of distilled water on a rolled-up microfiber and it's
extremely clingy. Daily use, just the water. Sometimes I use the
distilled water/isopropal and for the soap portion I use a drop or two
of windshild cleaner (20/20 brand) which is clear, odorless, and
disolves quickly. The dash of a soap is to break the surface tension
so that the water/alcohol doesn't just stay beaded on the surface. If
this is a garage sale album, I put the album on a padded bar stool and
soak all but the label with the water/alcohol/soap solution while
brushing the grooves in a circular motion with a nice facial brush.
Then I use the Big-Boy microfiber to dry in a circular motion. I use
a commercial record cleaner (what left I have) as the last step and
apply that only once. In my mind, it's the nutralizer and does add a
shiny coat (lubricant I hope?). I get pretty good results and have
removed pops and ticks on a before and after comparison. Aside:
nothing I've seen in stores is half the microfiber that PakShak
carries; he won't tell me where he gets them, Korea somewhere. The
yellow ones in Costco are for wheel wells and engine bays.

Treat a good microfiber right! The good microfibers I wash by hand
warm using addative-free detergent. For the album cloth, I use the
microfiber detergent offered at PakShak; it makes a little difference
in the final dry feel. Never use fablic softeners or dryer sheets.
Tumble dry ok, but never use a hot dryer as the microscopic fibers can
melt. Always wash & tumble a new microfiber before intial use to
remove the stray fiber hairs. After a couple few years, the album
specific microfiber goes to the car and a fresh one for albums is
used.

PS: I looked at my old retired Denon DL-103 under a microscope
recently... Keep your stylus clean! It looked like firing chamber
gun parts under the microscope with black/gray contaminants fused onto
the tip (especially the back-side) and cantalever. I got some off
with the Mr.Clean Magic Eraser method, but the dust is all up in the
cracks. With the new cartridge, I now hold the sylus creaner brush on
the needle before the swipes (as steady as possible). I'm thinking
that by pausing, it soaks a bit longer. I'm not affording the good
Kontak type stylus cleaners, but if you can, the microscope showed it
needs something better than I've been using.

[C. Leeds]

On 10/27/2010 1:20 PM, XYLOPHONE wrote:

> Fantastik is a domestic all-purpose household cleaner, at least here
> in Canada. There is ammonia in it, but also other chemicals...
> My concern is more about the records I already did it on, hoping they
> were not affected during the process.
> Some are quite valuable. For example, I bought a $325 copy of
> Underworld "Go away" on Regency (rare Canadian group)...

You're spending $325 on an LP, and cleaning it with Fantastik? That's
penny wise and pound foolish. Even if you could establish that Fantastik
is not harmful to LPs, there's no assurance that the manufacturer won't
have changed its composition when you next buy it.

A decent cleaning machine (VPI, Nitty Gritty) just isn't that expensive.
Why not use the proper tool?