Multi mike drums phase

[Les Cargill[_2_]]

Scott brought up something I felt like I glossed over.

I like to stick a pair of overheads in X/Y ( poor choice
but don't knock it until you try it ), one on the
snare in the manner Fletcher used to talk about
( horizontally oriented, pointed somewhat below the rim,
a card with the hihat as close to in the null as you
can get it ) and a kik mic.

The overheads are the only stereo thing on the stage.
X/Y does bleed well - I'm not concerned with the *drums*
here as much as I am concerned with the layout of the stage.
It's like a remote live recording from the middle of the stage.

So we have considerable iso between the kik and snare
mic by the shell of the kik drum. But not too much.
We have iso by virtue of distance from the overheads
( which are as close as I can get to the top of the drummer's
head ) from the other two.

What I meant by "sliding tracks around" is that in my opinion,
the thing that you must focus on in recording drums for what is
going to be ultimately rock music is the snare. It's the center.
If you need a balanced presentation - jazz - don't do this.

First order of business is to arrange the snare track
and kik track in time such that when the snare is hit, the snare
gets to be more in phase in the kik mic than the kik
gets to be in the snare mic.

Then I slide the overheads to match the snare in the same manner. in
truth, the overheads are usually delayed, and you probably have to
invert the order to get this to happen. Snare mic gets delayed, and
you line a snare hit in the kik up with that.

The point is that the thing that is most in focus, at least for rock
music ( which prefers a slightly distorted picture of the world )
is the snare , and everything else revolves
around that.

Frankly, with kik, I try very hard to get a lot of 100Hz into
the mix. I add 10k to the overheads for air, and you
get a pretty good image. But that snare has to sound like you're
sitting on top of it. The kik is a punch, the snare is a slap.

You get a lot of stereo this way. The other stuff can be
very close miced, and don't worry about the phase - the bleed
will be variable from left to right and it generally sounds
pretty good. I can't exactly claim commercial success with this, but
it has worked for me, and everybody likes the result.

--
Les Cargill

[slinkp]

On Oct 18, 11:19*pm, Les Cargill > wrote:
> I like to stick a pair of overheads in X/Y ( poor choice
> but don't knock it until you try it )

Interesting post, thanks. I've heard some great overheads from a
Blumlein setup (Royer stereo ribbon mic I think), so the idea of near-
coincident overheads doesn't sound crazy to me at all, but then I'm a
perpetual rank amateur.

> Frankly, with kik, I try very hard to get a lot of 100Hz into
> the mix.

Do you do that primarily with mic choice/placement, drum tuning, EQ,
or all three?

- PW

[Mark]

On Oct 19, 10:33*am, slinkp > wrote:
> On Oct 18, 11:19*pm, Les Cargill > wrote:
>
> > I like to stick a pair of overheads in X/Y ( poor choice
> > but don't knock it until you try it )
>
> Interesting post, thanks. *I've heard some great overheads from a
> Blumlein setup (Royer stereo ribbon mic I think), so the idea of near-
> coincident overheads doesn't sound crazy to me at all, but then I'm a
> perpetual rank amateur.
>
> > Frankly, with kik, I try very hard to get a lot of 100Hz into
> > the mix.
>
> Do you do that primarily with mic choice/placement, drum tuning, EQ,
> or all three?
>
> - PW

I will ask another question...

I understand the phasing problems that result from having more then
one mic "listening" to the same source.

My question is why not use EQ to resolve it.

The kik mic can be low pass filtered and the overheads can be high
passed and the snare mic can be EQ to pass the mids only... The point
is to minimize any overlap in a similar way that the crossover works
in a speaker.

would this not aleviate much of the phasing problems without having to
critically time the tracks?

thanks

Mark

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark > wrote:
>I understand the phasing problems that result from having more then
>one mic "listening" to the same source.
>
>My question is why not use EQ to resolve it.

Because drums are broadband sources.

>The kik mic can be low pass filtered and the overheads can be high
>passed and the snare mic can be EQ to pass the mids only... The point
>is to minimize any overlap in a similar way that the crossover works
>in a speaker.

That might work if you had brickwall filters and you didn't care about
the kick having any higher frequency stuff.

>would this not aleviate much of the phasing problems without having to
>critically time the tracks?

There will always be lots of leakage, especially when you are in a non-rock
situation where most of the drum sound is coming from the overheads. You
just live with it, it's fine. The drum kit is one instrument and should
be treated as a whole rather than a bunch of little pieces.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

Mark wrote:
> The kik mic can be low pass filtered and the overheads can be high
> passed and the snare mic can be EQ to pass the mids only... The point
> is to minimize any overlap in a similar way that the crossover works
> in a speaker.
>
> would this not aleviate much of the phasing problems without having to
> critically time the tracks?

Can do funny (ie not funny) things if you are relying on OHs for the toms.

geoff

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

geoff wrote:

> Mark wrote:

>> The kik mic can be low pass filtered and the overheads can be high
>> passed and the snare mic can be EQ to pass the mids only... The point
>> is to minimize any overlap in a similar way that the crossover works
>> in a speaker.

>> would this not aleviate much of the phasing problems without having
>> to critically time the tracks?

> Can do funny (ie not funny) things if you are relying on OHs for the
> toms.

Yes, but he must be considering closemiking, however likely to do non-funny
things to cymbal sound too, those thingies make more than just a burst of
white noise. Loosemiking imo often works better than closemiking, to loose
(ie. double digit inches away rather than single digit inches) is to win.

> geoff

Kind regards

Peter Larsen