Preliminary thoughts on film location recording rig

[Donovan Digital]

Howdy all.
I'm a live/studio cat in the NYC burbs looking to dip his toes into
location recording. My stepfather, a semipro videographer, asked that
I specify two lav kits (mic, belt pack, reciever) and a mixer for
direct input to his handheld DV cam. Mic kits should be ~$300, mixer
should be ~$1.5k . Having access to some additional funding, I decided
this would be a great opportunity to look at longer-term options re
pooling resources with him for a larger location sound loadout and
then looking for work in the city.
Thoughts and activities so far;
Called full compass, they suggested I look at shure pgx series and
sennheiser freeport series. Will talk with them more tomorrow.
Went on ProductionHUB and looked at some of the loadouts on offer.
This clued me in to TRAM, and while most of their stuff is not in my
budget Full Compass are selling unterminated mics for ~$150. Now, my
electronics skill 0n a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being Michael Faraday) is
I would say a 4. If I could terminate these myself I would come in on
or close to budget.

for mixers I am looking at shure FP line.

Specific questions;
What are everyones thoughts re mics and mixer?
Is it a reasonable expectation at my skill level to terminate mics?
Is it, on balance, a rational strategy to attempt to get work in the
city in the next year? Two years? Three years? I'm semifamiliar with
the onramps; student projects, internships, etc.

On spending additional $;

Give him $ for better lavs;
Pros; cheap, build a strong base.
Cons; work options still limited;

Boom/shotgun
Pros; in demand
Cons; expensive, not immediately useful

Recorder
Pros; many uses
Cons; expensive if w/sync. Also, he already has a couple(2-track & 8-
track), dont know if they sync or not.

Clapboard/sync generator
Pros; pays well
Cons; not everyone needs it, a long time before its useful

Lotsa crap in one post, I know. Thanks a lot in advance for any/all
help.
Best
Joe Stavitsky

http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstavitsky

[Scott Dorsey]

Donovan Digital > wrote:
>I'm a live/studio cat in the NYC burbs looking to dip his toes into
>location recording. My stepfather, a semipro videographer, asked that
>I specify two lav kits (mic, belt pack, reciever) and a mixer for
>direct input to his handheld DV cam. Mic kits should be ~$300, mixer
>should be ~$1.5k .

You aren't going to get mike kits worth anything in that range. If you
have to go cheap, I would consider doing the Countryman Isomax thing.

You will need a boom, a boom operator, a shotgun mike and good hypercardioid.
And a couple of pairs of good headphones. And some isolation boxes.

>Called full compass, they suggested I look at shure pgx series and
>sennheiser freeport series. Will talk with them more tomorrow.
>Went on ProductionHUB and looked at some of the loadouts on offer.
>This clued me in to TRAM, and while most of their stuff is not in my
>budget Full Compass are selling unterminated mics for ~$150. Now, my
>electronics skill 0n a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being Michael Faraday) is
>I would say a 4. If I could terminate these myself I would come in on
>or close to budget.

You need additional electronics to connect those to standard XLR inputs.
The outputs are unbalanced and require differential powering. They are
intended for direct connection to a wireless mike.

>for mixers I am looking at shure FP line.

You could do worse, but I would avoid telling potential customers that you
are using a SHure.

>Specific questions;
>What are everyones thoughts re mics and mixer?

I would not wish that stuff on my worst enemy. Also, you will be expected
to supply wireless. And good wireless, not crappy wireless.

>Is it a reasonable expectation at my skill level to terminate mics?

No, it's more than just putting an XLR connector on the end. I can sell
you some electronics packages that will do the job but you'll have to find
cases for them.

>Is it, on balance, a rational strategy to attempt to get work in the
>city in the next year? Two years? Three years? I'm semifamiliar with
>the onramps; student projects, internships, etc.

Well, the good news is that this is a sector of the industry that is still
growing, even in spite of the lousy economy. The bad news is that, and
especially down at the bottom of the market, there is also increasing
competition.

>On spending additional $;
>
>Give him $ for better lavs;
>Pros; cheap, build a strong base.
>Cons; work options still limited;

Spend the money, get Lectro packs. They are expensive, but customers will
ask if you have them.

>Boom/shotgun
>Pros; in demand
>Cons; expensive, not immediately useful

A boom mike is far more useful than lavs, and you can't really use lavs
effectively without a boom mike for ambience. Otherwise you get very
unnatural and isolated sound. You probably want a good hypercardioid, which
is much more versatile than a shotgun. An AT4053 is a good first pick but
it will not get you business the way the Schoeps will. Potential customers
will ask if you have a Schoeps.

>Recorder
>Pros; many uses
>Cons; expensive if w/sync. Also, he already has a couple(2-track & 8-
>track), dont know if they sync or not.

Again, customers will expect it. These days, everything will crystal synch
even if they don't have timecode. You can get something junky and get away
with it if you're just using it as a safety, though.

>Clapboard/sync generator
>Pros; pays well
>Cons; not everyone needs it, a long time before its useful

If you are working on a multi-camera shoot with timecode, you will need one,
and you can rent it then.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2010-08-25 said:
>I'm a live/studio cat in the NYC burbs looking to dip his toes into
>location recording. My stepfather, a semipro videographer, asked
>that I specify two lav kits (mic, belt pack, reciever) and a mixer
>for direct input to his handheld DV cam. Mic kits should be ~$300,
>mixer should be ~$1.5k . Having access to some additional funding,
>I decided this would be a great opportunity to look at longer-term
>options re pooling resources with him for a larger location sound
>loadout and then looking for work in the city.
Can understand that. I'd get a good boom rig instead of the
lavs, and rent them when work requires it. YOu can't get
top quality wireless rigs with that budget, and being NYC
area there are rental places that can rent you higher end
gear and charge the client for rentals.
chances are if you're well equipped with your studio you
already have some possible choices for a good boom. Search
the archives on rec.arts.movies.production-sound.


I'd concentrate on recorder and mixer for field use, with
time code and slating capability available to you as well.
If you must add to the mic locker add a good pro boom rig,
boom hardware as well. rent the wireless until budget
allows you to buy what you want, or you really decide what
you want.


>for mixers I am looking at shure FP line.

Lots of good work has been done on them. SOund devices are
more high end these days, but more $$$. AGain google and
the ramps archive is your friend here. I"d say though that
you're not doing bad starting out with the Shure fp line.
See below.
<snip>
>Give him $ for better lavs;
>Pros; cheap, build a strong base.
>Cons; work options still limited;

RIght, which is why I say you might be better building a
good boom rig, renting labs, and maybe even stepping up to
SD over Shure fp line for your mixer because of the added
feature set. Renting allows you to get better wireless than
you can afford to buy right now.

>Boom/shotgun
>Pros; in demand
>Cons; expensive, not immediately useful
Maybe not, depends on what you already have in your mic
locker. But, one good boom rig can be had, even if not
wireless at first for the lav budget, or better. rEnt those
radios.
<snip again>

THe real limiting factor is the work, but you can do good
work for folks this way. YEs, you're charging wireless lav
rig rentals to the client. Get the foundation of the rig
and rent that stuff, consider 'em consumables right now or
however you need to justify it.

GOod luck.



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Donovan Digital]

Note to self: next time skip gearslutz. Scott, your awesomeness
succeeds beyond the impossibke yet again. Thanks tons for the info.

[Donovan Digital]

Richard, glad to see you're still around. Hope your flood disaster
recovery went well.

[[email protected]]

On 2010-08-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
>You aren't going to get mike kits worth anything in that range. If
>you have to go cheap, I would consider doing the Countryman Isomax
>thing.
RIght, which is why I suggested rentals of wireless lav kit.

>You will need a boom, a boom operator, a shotgun mike and good
>hypercardioid. And a couple of pairs of good headphones. And some
>isolation boxes.
YEp, lots of stuff to buy. That's why I'm suggesting rent
what you might need as you need it for some items, such as
lav kit.

>>for mixers I am looking at shure FP line.
>You could do worse, but I would avoid telling potential customers
>that you are using a SHure.
True, but a lot of good work has been done on them, and I"m
sure is still being done.

<snip>

>Well, the good news is that this is a sector of the industry that
>is still growing, even in spite of the lousy economy. The bad
>news is that, and especially down at the bottom of the market,
>there is also increasing competition.
THis is true, and another reason I"m suggesting rentals of
some kit. TOo many lowballers. Pass those rental costs
onto the client with a bit more for your overhead, and don't
budge on the equipment rentals. IT'll keep some of the
lowballers at bay, and help you compensate you more fairly
for the jobs you do take as you can pad the rental costs, or
make the client responsible for acquiring gear they spec as
rentals while you learn the ins and outs and build your rep.

>Spend the money, get Lectro packs. They are expensive, but
>customers will ask if you have them.
YEs, if you're going to buy spend the money for the LEctros.

>>Boom/shotgun
>>Pros; in demand
>>Cons; expensive, not immediately useful
>A boom mike is far more useful than lavs, and you can't really use
>lavs effectively without a boom mike for ambience. Otherwise you
>get very unnatural and isolated sound. You probably want a good
>hypercardioid, which is much more versatile than a shotgun. An
>AT4053 is a good first pick but it will not get you business the
>way the Schoeps will. Potential customers will ask if you have a
>Schoeps.
Right, and it's a good mic for the studio mic kit as well,
so if you don't already have something in your studio mic
arsenal it's a better investment.

>>Clapboard/sync generator
>>Pros; pays well
>>Cons; not everyone needs it, a long time before its useful
>If you are working on a multi-camera shoot with timecode, you will
>need one, and you can rent it then.
True enough. BUild a relationship with your favorite rental
house in NYC.






Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[[email protected]]

On 2010-08-25 said:
>Richard, glad to see you're still around. Hope your flood disaster
WAs the fire when the juice came back to our neighborhood
afterword that got us actually.

See the web site in the sig for what I've got going lately.

HOpe I was helpful, it's the way I"d play my cards entering
that market where you are anyway.



Regards,




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Donovan Digital > wrote:
>Note to self: next time skip gearslutz. Scott, your awesomeness
>succeeds beyond the impossibke yet again. Thanks tons for the info.

There's actually a better group for this: rec.arts.movies.production.sound.
It's worth just sitting there and watching what goes by for a while.

I have a Shure FP32 here and I have used it on a lot of things that I
wouldn't admit to in public. It sounds like it has cheap transformers
in it, and you have to be REALLY careful with gain structure because it
overloads much too easily. It's very clearly more of an ENG mixer than
a serious film sound mixer... but I have used it and been careful with
it and nobody has ever complained. I sure wouldn't use it on a classical
gig but for dialogue work it'll do the job and it won't break down and
it won't have RFI issues. Which is more than I can say for some expensive
and better-sounding field mixers.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, > wrote:
>On 2010-08-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
> >You will need a boom, a boom operator, a shotgun mike and good
> >hypercardioid. And a couple of pairs of good headphones. And some
> >isolation boxes.
>YEp, lots of stuff to buy. That's why I'm suggesting rent
>what you might need as you need it for some items, such as
>lav kit.

The problem is, and I am really said to say it, that inexperienced young
directors hire almost exclusively based upon the equipment list. If you
have X, and you can provide X, they'll hire you because of your X and not
necessarily because you know how to use it.

Crossrenting stuff now and then is fine for things you don't use very often,
but you will get calls asking if you have X, and if you don't have X (and
maybe you have something much better than X), they'll thank you and hang up.

These guys have basically no respect for the people, just for the equipment,
and that's especially sad because bad sound will turn off the viewer long
before bad image quality will.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2010-08-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
>>YEp, lots of stuff to buy. That's why I'm suggesting rent
>>what you might need as you need it for some items, such as
>>lav kit.
>The problem is, and I am really said to say it, that inexperienced
>young directors hire almost exclusively based upon the equipment
>list. If you have X, and you can provide X, they'll hire you
>because of your X and not necessarily because you know how to use
>it.

YEah and if they ask, I can get X, and I"m going to rent it
to them because it's not in the standard package I bring.

MOst of these folks aren't in a position of knowledge about
wtf they really need anyway. SO, yeah tell 'em you have it,
and will rent it to 'em at whatever your rental rate is plus
10%, collect the check and laugh. Just tell 'em it doesn't
come with your standard package, cause it's so cool.

>Crossrenting stuff now and then is fine for things you don't use
>very often, but you will get calls asking if you have X, and if you
>don't have X (and maybe you have something much better than X),
>they'll thank you and hang up.

OF course, so tell 'em you got it, as I noted above, and
this is what it costs 'em to use it. IT's like the doofus
wants a $400 remote truck project and wants to know do I
have pt. I tell him I can get him tracks he can import into
pt. AFter all, we're not doing precision editing in the
truck, this is a live performance. DOesn't really matter if
I have pt or not, I"m not going to be using all those
features on a live recording, at that stage of production
anyway.

THen he kicks tires and asks price. USually I get him
around to that even before he asks me the usual pt question.
I ask him how much he's expecting to pay for this. MOst
times the figure is so low I laugh, especially if it's a
full band thing. IF it's a choir or something like that
we'll talk.

>These guys have basically no respect for the people, just for the
>equipment, and that's especially sad because bad sound will turn
>off the viewer long before bad image quality will.
OF course it will, and they're the guys gonna offer you a
balloney sandwich and a picture of Franklin to work on their
project for a week.
FInd 'em all over craigslist.


I've started calling craigslist lowballer central.



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, > wrote:
>YEah and if they ask, I can get X, and I"m going to rent it
>to them because it's not in the standard package I bring.
>
>MOst of these folks aren't in a position of knowledge about
>wtf they really need anyway. SO, yeah tell 'em you have it,
>and will rent it to 'em at whatever your rental rate is plus
>10%, collect the check and laugh. Just tell 'em it doesn't
>come with your standard package, cause it's so cool.

That can work and it can also backfire.

So many of the folks on the bottom end of the market are kids who have
maxed out their credit cards buying a RED because they know the RED is
the coolest thing around and the resolution looked so good when they
watched the sample videos on youtube. They don't know how to use it,
they don't know how to compose, and they don't know how to set the gain
controls on the audio inputs.

It becomes your job first of all to convince these folks, who don't know
anything about what the job requires but are very brand-conscious, to hire
you.

Then it becomes your job to handhold them.

If you think you have seen clueless brand-obsessed idiots in the audio
world, the cinema world is a thousand times worse.

> >These guys have basically no respect for the people, just for the
> >equipment, and that's especially sad because bad sound will turn
> >off the viewer long before bad image quality will.
>
>OF course it will, and they're the guys gonna offer you a
>balloney sandwich and a picture of Franklin to work on their
>project for a week.
>FInd 'em all over craigslist.

The problem is that you're now competing with the craigslist guys. I'm
sorry, I can't compete with those folks. I have to actually eat and sleep.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Eric Toline[_2_]]

On Aug 25, 12:51*pm, Donovan Digital > wrote:
> Howdy all.
> I'm a live/studio cat in the NYC burbs looking to dip his toes into
> location recording. My stepfather, a semipro videographer, asked that
> I specify two lav kits (mic, belt pack, reciever) and a mixer for
> direct input to his handheld DV cam. Mic kits should be ~$300, mixer
> should be ~$1.5k . Having access to some additional funding, I decided
> this would be a great opportunity to look at longer-term options re
> pooling resources with him for a larger location sound loadout and
> then looking for work in the city.
> Thoughts and activities so far;
> Called full compass, they suggested I look at shure pgx series and
> sennheiser freeport series. Will talk with them more tomorrow.
> Went on ProductionHUB and looked at some of the loadouts on offer.
> This clued me in to TRAM, and while most of their stuff is not in my
> budget Full Compass are selling unterminated mics for ~$150. Now, my
> electronics skill 0n a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being Michael Faraday) is
> I would say a 4. If I could terminate these myself I would come in on
> or close to budget.
>
> for mixers I am looking at shure FP line.
>
> Specific questions;
> What are everyones thoughts re mics and mixer?
> Is it a reasonable expectation at my skill level to terminate mics?
> Is it, on balance, a rational strategy to attempt to get work in the
> city in the next year? Two years? Three years? I'm semifamiliar with
> the onramps; student projects, internships, etc.
>
> On spending additional $;
>
> Give him $ for better lavs;
> Pros; cheap, build a strong base.
> Cons; work options still limited;
>
> Boom/shotgun
> Pros; in demand
> Cons; expensive, not immediately useful
>
> Recorder
> Pros; many uses
> Cons; expensive if w/sync. Also, he already has a couple(2-track & 8-
> track), dont know if they sync or not.
>
> Clapboard/sync generator
> Pros; pays well
> Cons; not everyone needs it, a long time before its useful
>
> Lotsa crap in one post, I know. Thanks a lot in advance for any/all
> help.
> Best
> Joe Stavitsky
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstavitsky

Go to the location sound discussion group for location sound mixers.
www.jwsound.net and ask your questions there. It is the defacto
standard location sound group.


Eric

[[email protected]]

On 2010-08-25 (ScottDorsey) said:
>>MOst of these folks aren't in a position of knowledge about
>>wtf they really need anyway. SO, yeah tell 'em you have it,
>>and will rent it to 'em at whatever your rental rate is plus
>>10%, collect the check and laugh. Just tell 'em it doesn't
>>come with your standard package, cause it's so cool.
>That can work and it can also backfire.
>So many of the folks on the bottom end of the market are kids who
>have maxed out their credit cards buying a RED because they know
>the RED is the coolest thing around and the resolution looked so
>good when they watched the sample videos on youtube. They don't
>know how to use it, they don't know how to compose, and they don't
>know how to set the gain controls on the audio inputs.
>It becomes your job first of all to convince these folks, who don't
>know anything about what the job requires but are very
>brand-conscious, to hire you.

YEah, but first we talk money. I hear all sorts of horro
stories on ramps. BOught the red cause it was cool, no
money for budget to pay crew. "hey it's going to festivals,
and you get points." Yeah right, a percentage of zero is
zero.

>Then it becomes your job to handhold them.
Yeah , but I"m not a very good hand holder.

>If you think you have seen clueless brand-obsessed idiots in the
>audio world, the cinema world is a thousand times worse.
OH yeah, seen it. I thought for awhile about getting an
over the shoulder rig. Decided not to.

<snip>
>>OF course it will, and they're the guys gonna offer you a
>>balloney sandwich and a picture of Franklin to work on their
>>project for a week.
>>FInd 'em all over craigslist.
>The problem is that you're now competing with the craigslist guys.
>I'm sorry, I can't compete with those folks. I have to actually
>eat and sleep.
YEah, and I actually have to get paid for my time.
ASsociate ran an ad for me on cl once, told me he did me a
favor. BOy did I get some lowball tire kickers out of that
one.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Scott Dorsey]

This would be hilarious if it weren't so painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c38CekaAtfI

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Eric Toline[_2_]]

On Aug 27, 9:05*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> This would be hilarious if it weren't so painful:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c38CekaAtfI
>
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

not only painful but true.

Eric

[Cyberserf[_2_]]

On Aug 27, 8:05*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> This would be hilarious if it weren't so painful:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c38CekaAtfI
>
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

LOL, an 11 person nude scene shot with a RED...I'll take 10 points of
that.

-CS