The Death of The MidYut

[GeoSynch]

Well, Boonie, when you gonna spill the beans?

With all the details, if you please ...

TIA.

[Coconuts]

What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup doesn't
seem to be about audio at all.

Does "The Death of the Midyut" have anything to do with
audio? What does it mean? Yes, Boonie, please spill the
beans.


"GeoSynch" > wrote in message
...
> Well, Boonie, when you gonna spill the beans?
>
> With all the details, if you please ...
>
> TIA.
>

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 4:46*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup doesn't
> seem to be about audio at all.
>
> Does "The Death of the Midyut" have anything to do with
> audio? What does it mean? Yes, Boonie, please spill the
> beans.

If you can get a refoam kit, then it's worth it. That particular
Tannoy was a nice little monitor.

This place sells new woofers for the PBM 6.5, so they may be able to
help you as well:

http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=01-060&Category_Code

[MiNe 109]

In article >,
"Coconuts" > wrote:

> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup doesn't
> seem to be about audio at all.

Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100, so it depends
on how much you like refoaming stuff.

Stephen

> Does "The Death of the Midyut" have anything to do with
> audio? What does it mean? Yes, Boonie, please spill the
> beans.
>
>
> "GeoSynch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, Boonie, when you gonna spill the beans?
> >
> > With all the details, if you please ...
> >
> > TIA.
> >

[Coconuts]

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
>> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
>> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
>> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup
>> doesn't
>> seem to be about audio at all.
>
> Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> so it depends
> on how much you like refoaming stuff.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
for under $100?

And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
wasn't expecting one.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 8:34*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > In article >,
> > "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
> >> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> >> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> >> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup
> >> doesn't
> >> seem to be about audio at all.
>
> > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> > so it depends
> > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
> for under $100?
>
> And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
> wasn't expecting one.

Well, that site I linked offers a comparable woofer for $60 each. IIRC
refoam kits are usually available for around $40. It's a bit of work
to do it, but it's not too hard of a job if you know basic electronics.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 7:35*pm, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *"Coconuts" > wrote:
> > What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> > solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> > SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup doesn't
> > seem to be about audio at all.
>
> Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100, so it depends
> on how much you like refoaming stuff.

I saw a nice pair sell on eBay for $150. For $100 they may be a little
beat up.

[MiNe 109]

In article >,
"Coconuts" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Coconuts" > wrote:
> >
> >> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> >> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> >> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup
> >> doesn't
> >> seem to be about audio at all.
> >
> > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> > so it depends
> > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
> for under $100?

Based on google finding craiglist and other forum listings:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/397180-used-tannoy-pbm-8-ii
-400-deal.html

I don't have an opinion on gearslutz as such.

> And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
> wasn't expecting one.

No problem!

Stephen

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 19, 9:21*pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 7:06*pm, Boon > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 19, 8:34*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
> > > "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > In article >,
> > > > "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
> > > >> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came here to
> > > >> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my Tannoy
> > > >> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup
> > > >> doesn't
> > > >> seem to be about audio at all.
>
> > > > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> > > > so it depends
> > > > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> > > I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
> > > for under $100?
>
> > > And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
> > > wasn't expecting one.
>
> > Well, that site I linked offers a comparable woofer for $60 each. IIRC
> > refoam kits are usually available for around $40. It's a bit of work
> > to do it, but it's not too hard of a job if you know basic electronics.
>
> Refoaming requires zero knowledge of electronics. *Even you could do
> it. *Hard part is cosmetics. *Getting the driver functional is
> trivial.

We were talking about replacing the drivers as well, dip****. Haven't
you learned from your last debacle not to challenge me when it comes
to audio.

>
> Orange county speaker will do it if you send them the driver.
>
> Re-Edge Pricing For: Tannoy
> Size / Model Re-Edge Price
> 4", 5" & 6" * * * * * * * * * *$28
> 8" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *$35
> 10" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *$45
> 12" HPD315, etc. * * * * $85
> 15" HPD385, etc. $28 * $85
>
> Lots of people sell driver edges on E-bay as well.

Ah, some useful information from you. For once.

[Bret L]

>
> > > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> > > so it depends
> > > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> > I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
> > for under $100?
>
> > And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
> > wasn't expecting one.
>
> Well, that site I linked offers a comparable woofer for $60 each. IIRC
> refoam kits are usually available for around $40. It's a bit of work
> to do it, but it's not too hard of a job if you know basic electronics.

Refoaming has nothing to do with "electronics", it's an all
mechanical activity. If the foam is bad, refoam them.

[Bret L]

Even replacing a driver means the soley physical act of reconnecting
two wires as welll as taking the old out and putting the new in. Not
much electronics there.

Never having worked in an electronics plant you wouldn't know that
all actual assembly of electronics is done by a workforce, generally
low paid, mostly female, and generally knowing absolutely nothing of
electricity or electronics per se. The business and the assembleresses
themselves both like it that way.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 2:36*pm, Bret L > wrote:
> > > > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under $100,
> > > > so it depends
> > > > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> > > I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace them
> > > for under $100?
>
> > > And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I really
> > > wasn't expecting one.
>
> > Well, that site I linked offers a comparable woofer for $60 each. IIRC
> > refoam kits are usually available for around $40. It's a bit of work
> > to do it, but it's not too hard of a job if you know basic electronics.
>
> *Refoaming has nothing to do with "electronics", it's an all
> mechanical activity. If the foam is bad, refoam them.

So you're making the same mistake as Scott and ignoring the first
sentence.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 2:42*pm, Bret L > wrote:
> Even replacing a driver means the soley physical act of reconnecting
> two wires as welll as taking the old out and putting the new in. Not
> much electronics there.
>
> *Never having worked in an electronics plant you wouldn't know that
> all actual assembly of electronics is done by a workforce, *generally
> low paid, mostly female, and generally knowing absolutely nothing of
> electricity or electronics per se. The business and the assembleresses
> themselves both like it that way.

And now you're backpedaling and realizing your mistake. Got it.

By the way, I have replaced drivers on several speakers, and it's not
always a piece of cake. Some drivers are flat-out hard to pull out of
the cabinets, and others may have atypical connectors.

Unlike you, I have also installed sound systems in commercial
applications, and it's much more than connecting two wires. You never
know what you're going to find until you open the enclosure. I became
involved in a project recently that consisted of replacing damaged
cabinets, and the experienced engineer in charge was totally ****ed
off at how difficult it was to refit the woofers back into their
cabinets. Sometimes these "design flaws" are proprietary to discourage
DIYers.

If the original poster was wondering whether of not he should refoam a
pair of speakers, chances are he's never done it before. It could be
easy...it could be a nightmare. Who knows.

To the original poster, both Bret and Scott are autistic and cannot
communicate well with the others here. Bret has gone as far as to say
that you need to know how to solder before you can listen to a stereo
system. Scott is just here to troll. I'm sure both of their mistakes
in this thread are obvious to you by now. Good luck with the Tannoys.

[Coconuts]

On Jan 19, 9:21 pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 7:06 pm, Boon >
> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 19, 8:34 pm, "Coconuts" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "MiNe 109" > wrote in
> > > message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > In article >,
> > > > "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
> > > >> What in the world is this newsgroup about? I came
> > > >> here to
> > > >> solicit opinions as to whether re-foam-edging my
> > > >> Tannoy
> > > >> SBM-6.5 speakers is a wise decision. This newsgroup
> > > >> doesn't
> > > >> seem to be about audio at all.
>
> > > > Looks like you could replace them entirely for under
> > > > $100,
> > > > so it depends
> > > > on how much you like refoaming stuff.
>
> > > I'm sorry, I'm not following you. How could I replace
> > > them
> > > for under $100?
>
> > > And thank you by the way. Two helpful replies when I
> > > really
> > > wasn't expecting one.
>
> > Well, that site I linked offers a comparable woofer for
> > $60 each. IIRC
> > refoam kits are usually available for around $40. It's a
> > bit of work
> > to do it, but it's not too hard of a job if you know
> > basic electronics.
>
> Refoaming requires zero knowledge of electronics. Even you
> could do
> it. Hard part is cosmetics. Getting the driver functional
> is
> trivial.

You two crack me up. You stalk one another like an
obsession. Is there something going on you'd like the world
to know?

I'm not too worried about being able to refoam the woofers.
I hate that I have to cut out the dust caps, but I guess
it's a necessary part of the process. I'll invest in the
refoams for $25 and see how they sound. I don't think I'll
opt for new drivers at $60 each.

Thanks all.

> Orange county speaker will do it if you send them the
> driver.
>
> Re-Edge Pricing For: Tannoy
> Size / Model Re-Edge Price
> 4", 5" & 6" $28
> 8" $35
> 10" $45
> 12" HPD315, etc. $85
> 15" HPD385, etc. $28 $85
>
> Lots of people sell driver edges on E-bay as well.

[Boon[_2_]]

Once I gave a old pair of Snell Type J speakers to a friend of mine.
By the time he finally decided to use them, the surrounds were
decayed. I told him to get refoam kits and even gave him the address.

He called me some time later and told me he totally screwed everything
up. As he pulled the woofers out, the wires pulled out. He had no idea
what to do. Plus, he damaged the cabinets when he pulled them out.
This was an educated guy who used to work on cars, too. I had to help
him put everything together.

So, idiots...tell me again how I'm wrong.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 4:26*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:

> You two crack me up. You stalk one another like an
> obsession. Is there something going on you'd like the world
> to know?

Other than the fact that Scott Wittevrongel of Vista, California is an
audio fraud? No, not really.

1. He didn't know that Neutrik made interconnects when he challenged
me on that.
2. He didn't know that refoaming a woofer may involve some basic
electronic skills such as cutting out dust caps and reconnecting the
speaker leads.
3. His stereo system sounds like ass. It's a mish mash of several
mismatched brands--a Krell amp, an old Yamaha preamp, Quad ESLs and an
old Mitsubishi linear-tracking TT--and it sounds lifeless and dull and
musical.

I'm staring to wonder if he really knows anything at all about audio,
Perhaps that's why he spends all of his time on RAO spamming us with
OT political threads.

[GeoSynch]

BaBoon thumped his chest:

> So...tell me again how I'm wrong.

Right on, Boonie!

In chasing everyone off rao, one of the unforeseen consequences was also
diminishing Georgie boy's reason for being.

The Pudge's last post was on the day after Christmas in the Chargers group. The
pain of loneliness seems to have been unbearable for the poor Gimpster, so he
looks to have checked himself out.

A shame really, because he so would have relished the return of the Ferstler. He
lived for that sort of stuff, you know.

But you took it away from him by first chasing off Arny and then Scott, leaving
the moping MidYut with nothing left to live for.

Well done, Boonie boy!

[GeoSynch]

Buffoon burbled:

> [Scott's system] sounds lifeless and dull and musical.

> I'm staring to wonder if he really knows anything at all about audio,

While everyone else wonders whether you can think or write coherently.

[Coconuts]

"GeoSynch" > wrote in message
...
> Buffoon burbled:
>
>> [Scott's system] sounds lifeless and dull and musical.
>
>> I'm staring to wonder if he really knows anything at all
>> about audio,
>
> While everyone else wonders whether you can think or write
> coherently.
What do you do for a living Mr GeoSynch? Are you a
satellite?

[Bret L]

>
> 1. He didn't know that Neutrik made interconnects when he challenged
> me on that.
> 2. He didn't know that refoaming a woofer may involve some basic
> electronic skills such as cutting out dust caps and reconnecting the
> speaker leads.

Those may indeed require some level of skill, but they are mechanical
and not electronic operations.

"Hook blue wire to terminal A1R20 with Amphenol crimp connector.
Solder green wire to ground bus" is a mechanical procedure.

" Find current through emitter to base resistor and change value to
provide 2A collector current at Vcc-12V, then determine value of C12
to oscillate at 3.133 MHz. If parasitics exceed -40dBm, neutralize" is
more along the line of electronic procedure.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 12:38*am, Bret L > wrote:
> > 1. He didn't know that Neutrik made interconnects when he challenged
> > me on that.
> > 2. He didn't know that refoaming a woofer may involve some basic
> > electronic skills such as cutting out dust caps and reconnecting the
> > speaker leads.
>
> *Those may indeed require some level of skill, but they are mechanical
> and not electronic operations.

Knowing which wire to connect to which terminal requires basic
knowledge of electronics.

>
> *"Hook blue wire to terminal A1R20 with Amphenol crimp connector.
> Solder green wire to ground bus" is a mechanical procedure.
>
> " Find current through emitter to base resistor and change value to
> provide 2A collector current at Vcc-12V, then determine value of C12
> to oscillate at 3.133 MHz. If parasitics exceed -40dBm, neutralize" is
> more along the line of electronic procedure.

Now you're nitpicking and changing the language to avoid admitting you
were wrong to agree with Scott. Just be a man. Don't be a girly wimp
like Scott Wittevrongel and evade the issue. You may have your issues,
but I always thought you were above such games.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 11:38*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
> "GeoSynch" > wrote in message
>
> ...> Buffoon burbled:
>
> >> [Scott's system] sounds lifeless and dull and musical.
>
> >> I'm staring to wonder if he really knows anything at all
> >> about audio,
>
> > While everyone else wonders whether you can think or write
> > coherently.
>
> What do you do for a living Mr GeoSynch? Are you a
> satellite?

Nope. He lives in an IT closet. He has to wake up in the middle of the
night to check his work from a remote location to ensure he hasn't
screwed up. He's single, has no real friends, and hasn't had a date
with a woman in a very long time.

Also, most of us have killfiled him. We only know he exists when
people like you respond to him.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 1:47*pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2:29*pm, Boon > wrote:
>
> > Once I gave a old pair of Snell Type J speakers to a friend of mine.
> > By the time he finally decided to use them, the surrounds were
> > decayed. I told him to get refoam kits and even gave him the address.
>
> > He called me some time later and told me he totally screwed everything
> > up. As he pulled the woofers out, the wires pulled out. He had no idea
> > what to do. Plus, he damaged the cabinets when he pulled them out.
> > This was an educated guy who used to work on cars, too. I had to help
> > him put everything together.
>
> > So, idiots...tell me again how I'm wrong.
>
> *Maybe he is educated from your perspective.....

Maybe? You're basing your entire argument on a maybe?

[Coconuts]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
...
>On Jan 20, 2:26 pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
>>
>> I'm not too worried about being able to refoam the
>> woofers.
>> I hate that I have to cut out the dust caps, but I guess
>> it's a necessary part of the process.
>
> It's not. You don't have to shim the coils either as some
> recommend.
>Lay the driver flat and it should be center by the spider.
>If not, the spider is damaged and should be replaced.
>You should be able to carefully install the foam without
>pulling the
>coil off-center
>without shimming it.
>
>ScottW

hmm. Shimming is recommended. They say that's the way the
professionals do it. You're saying the coil will remain
centered somehow? What's the downside of cutting out the
caps and shimming the coils? There's new caps coming with
the kit. You wouldn't do it?

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 2:00*pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 4:38*pm, Boon > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 20, 4:26*pm, "Coconuts" > wrote:
>
> > > You two crack me up. You stalk one another like an
> > > obsession. Is there something going on you'd like the world
> > > to know?
>
> > Other than the fact that Scott Wittevrongel of Vista, California is an
> > audio fraud? No, not really.
>
> > 1. He didn't know that Neutrik made interconnects when he challenged
> > me on that.
> > 2. He didn't know that refoaming a woofer may involve some basic
> > electronic skills such as cutting out dust caps and reconnecting the
> > speaker leads.
> > 3. His stereo system sounds like ass. It's a mish mash of several
> > mismatched brands--a Krell amp, an old Yamaha preamp, Quad ESLs and an
> > old Mitsubishi linear-tracking TT--and it sounds lifeless and dull and
> > musical.
>
> *Actually my main system now has Linkwitz Orions that I built
> from Linkwitz plans.
>
> The Quads driven by the Krell are now in my other room.
>
> *Lifeless and dull and musical is an odd description for the sound
> of a system. *As usual, Marc is confused.
> Of course he thinks removing two wires and replacing them requires
> knowledge of electronics so you should know what his perception of
> knowledge is.

No, moron. If you pull out a woofer and the wire is already
disconnected, it requires a basic knowledge of electronics to put it
back the right way. Don't try to change things around to make yourself
look like you know what you;re talking about. You were wrong, period.
Man up, bitch.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 19, 10:21*pm, Boon > wrote:

> Ah, some useful information from you. For once.

2pid was recently shocked to find out that nobody likes him on his
football group.

Be gentle. He thought it was only here that he was universally
despised. LoL.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 20, 11:11*pm, "GeoSynch" > wrote:

> But you took it away from him by first chasing off Arny and then Scott, leaving
> the moping MidYut with nothing left to live for.
>
> Well done, Boonie boy!

Everybody knows that you chased everyone off.

It's common knowledge.

[GeoSynch]

Jilly jived:

> > But you took it away from him by first chasing off Arny and then Scott,
> > leaving the moping MidYut with nothing left to live for.

> > Well done, Boonie boy!

> Everybody knows that you chased everyone off.

Were that true, then nobody would be around to affirm it.

> It's common knowledge.

Have you finally sweated losing that bet, or are you still welshing on it?

What happened to Boy George?

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 10:55*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
> wrote:
> On Jan 20, 11:11*pm, "GeoSynch" > wrote:
>
> > But you took it away from him by first chasing off Arny and then Scott, leaving
> > the moping MidYut with nothing left to live for.
>
> > Well done, Boonie boy!
>
> Everybody knows that you chased everyone off.
>
> It's common knowledge.

Scott's been chased off? Really?

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 21, 11:12*pm, "GeoSynch" > wrote:
> Jilly jived:
>
> > > But you took it away from him by first chasing off Arny and then Scott,
> > > leaving the moping MidYut with nothing left to live for.
> > > Well done, Boonie boy!
> > Everybody knows that you chased everyone off.
>
> Were that true, then nobody would be around to affirm it.

OK, so you chased "most" people off.

> > It's common knowledge.
>
> Have you finally sweated losing that bet, or are you still welshing on it?

Why are you stalking me?

> What happened to Boy George?

You tell me. He was your sockpuppet.

[Gary Eickmeier]

Scott - if you were interested enough to google me up, I would hope you
could zero in on these two entries:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5825

http://www.pbase.com/eickmeier/about_me

And yes, I have mentioned Bose speakers a few times in my posts in this
group and in RAHE, but what I am actually talking about is stereo theory,
not a particular brand of speaker. It gets confusing.

In this thread, I was just hoping to smoke out Middius, but instead I got
John!

Thanks again,

Gary Eickmeier

[John Stone]

On 1/26/10 8:58 PM, in article
, "Gary Eickmeier"
> wrote:


> I guess it's still not safe to talk about Bose speakers here!

You can talk about them all you want. I wasn't referring to the Bose part as
"drivel". That said, you keep trotting out ancient Bose white papers as your
support for claims like "driver distortion is inaudible unless the driver is
on the verge of burning out". That was a controversial claim at best even in
the 60's and has been debunked since then by far better and in depth
research from the likes of Wilhelm Klippel and others.
Here's one of many such papers:

http://klippel.de/pubs/Klippel%20papers/Objective_and_Subjective_Evaluation_
04.pdf

"Research" has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it comes
from someone who is developing a commercial product based on such research.
It also has a shelf life.

>Can you detect what else I said about SL that was inaccurate?

Let me give you some examples:

"I guess SL is strictly a measurements guy."
and..
"It is for basically the same reason that Siegfried
has added the rear tweeter to the Orions. He is discovering the need to
study radiation pattern, that it shouldn't be all direct sound."

Both statements are wrong. Siegfried added the rear tweeter after doing
extensive listening comparisons between the Orion and Pluto speaker systems.
This fact obviously also negates your contention that SL is "strictly a
measurements guy". The actual measurements showed miniscule change after
adding the tweeter, but the subjective quality changed dramatically.
Linkwitz is also an avid listener and a live classical music lover, who has
had seasons tickets to San Francisco Symphony performances for many years.
IOW, completely the opposite of "strictly a measurements guy".

He is also not "discovering the need to study radiation pattern". His entire
body of work on loudspeaker design over the past 25+ years has centered on
the impact of loudspeaker radiation pattern on perceived sound. His website
has had extensive info on this for over 10 years and for 10 years prior to
that he was doing similar work with Audio Artistry. Yes, his work continues,
but it is hardly as though he just fell into this research. He's also
presented numerous AES papers on the subject. Have you looked at any of
these?

[Gary Eickmeier]

"John Stone" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/26/10 8:58 PM, in article
> , "Gary Eickmeier"
> > wrote:
>
>
>> I guess it's still not safe to talk about Bose speakers here!
>
> You can talk about them all you want. I wasn't referring to the Bose part
> as
> "drivel". That said, you keep trotting out ancient Bose white papers as
> your
> support for claims like "driver distortion is inaudible unless the driver
> is
> on the verge of burning out". That was a controversial claim at best even
> in
> the 60's and has been debunked since then by far better and in depth
> research from the likes of Wilhelm Klippel and others.
> Here's one of many such papers:
>
> http://klippel.de/pubs/Klippel%20papers/Objective_and_Subjective_Evaluation_
> 04.pdf
>
> "Research" has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it comes
> from someone who is developing a commercial product based on such
> research.
> It also has a shelf life.

That's great. I'm glad someone else is doing listening tests too. It is
surprising how much folklore has developed over the years based on
measurements alone. But when you do listening tests, you find out which
distortions are audible and which aren't. There are still serious
manufacturers and designers time aligning their speakers. Dr. Mark Davis
wrote a series of articles in High Fidelity and Stereo Review on what is
audible in loudspeaker design. His conclusion was that the main
characteristics are frequency response and radiation pattern. He also
duplicated Dr. Bose's distortion test in a slightly different way, and came
to the same conclusion.
>
>>Can you detect what else I said about SL that was inaccurate?
>
> Let me give you some examples:
>
> "I guess SL is strictly a measurements guy."
> and..
> "It is for basically the same reason that Siegfried
> has added the rear tweeter to the Orions. He is discovering the need to
> study radiation pattern, that it shouldn't be all direct sound."
>
> Both statements are wrong. Siegfried added the rear tweeter after doing
> extensive listening comparisons between the Orion and Pluto speaker
> systems.
> This fact obviously also negates your contention that SL is "strictly a
> measurements guy". The actual measurements showed miniscule change after
> adding the tweeter, but the subjective quality changed dramatically.
> Linkwitz is also an avid listener and a live classical music lover, who
> has
> had seasons tickets to San Francisco Symphony performances for many
> years.
> IOW, completely the opposite of "strictly a measurements guy".
>
> He is also not "discovering the need to study radiation pattern". His
> entire
> body of work on loudspeaker design over the past 25+ years has centered on
> the impact of loudspeaker radiation pattern on perceived sound. His
> website
> has had extensive info on this for over 10 years and for 10 years prior to
> that he was doing similar work with Audio Artistry. Yes, his work
> continues,
> but it is hardly as though he just fell into this research. He's also
> presented numerous AES papers on the subject. Have you looked at any of
> these?

OK, OK, you are taking me wrong here. But maybe I am just a little sarcastic
because I wrote about the importance of radiation pattern and how it should
be approached some 20 years ago. Nobody believed me then, but now when SL
declares that he would really like to know what the ideal radiation pattern
is, and how speakers should be positioned, people begin to pay attention.

As for my "strictly a measurements guy," all I meant was that in that paper
there were only measurements, and no double blind testing.

As for reading papers, you could impress me if you went to the trouble of
reading my paper, or the articles I have written in the BAS Speaker. And
yes, I have read SL extensively, and attended a couple of his presentations,
one at the AES and one in L.A. with Floyd Toole and some others. Siegfried
has made some very valid observations and asked just the right questions in
his Challenge paper. I think I have some of the answers to those questions,
but I am not going to write to him yet so that I don't bias any testing that
may be done based on the Challenge. I am hoping that such testing might
independently prove me right as well as giving SL the answers he is looking
for.

Gary Eickmeier

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 7, 2:34*pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 12:14*pm, Soupe du jour > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:02:43 -0800 (PST), ScottW >
> > wrote:
>
> > >On Feb 7, 10:36*am, Soupe du jour > wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:00:19 -0800 (PST), ScottW
>
> > >> > wrote:
>
> > >> > Actually my main system now has Linkwitz Orions that I built
> > >> >from Linkwitz plans.
>
> > >> I've heard these and was fairly impressed, although they fall to
> > >> pieces if you turn the volume up to what most would consider normal
> > >> levels.
>
> > > I find them capable of overwhelming my listening room as their low
> > >distortion
> > >at high levels doesn't convey a sense of typical loudness as do most
> > >box speakers.
> > >Perhaps that's what you heard.
>
> > I don't think so. I have heard other low distortion designs before.
>
> > The Orions seemed to handle things like a string quartet just fine,
> > but they didn't do so well on a full orchestra. They got kind of
> > "congested" or something, as if they were overloading on the louder
> > passages.
>
> * I don't share that experience. *I find that they convey an
> effortless
> sense of unlimited power capable of levels far beyond what my
> room can handle.
> Creating live orchestra levels is a challenge few listening rooms
> can handle. *My personal preference is at much lower levels and I find
> them
> easily capable of smooth detail and clarity throughout and well beyond
> my preferred
> listening range.

It sounds like Soupy thinks your speakers are anemic. LoL.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 7, 6:45*pm, Soupe du jour > wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:19:32 -0800 (PST), Boon
>
> > wrote:
>
> >It sounds like Soupy thinks your speakers are anemic. LoL.
>
> They're not awful, and they're better than a lot of other speakers,
> but they really did sound like they were getting into trouble when
> asked to reproduce a full orchestra (and not at live volume levels
> either).
>
> They also didn't stand up well to reproducing a drum kit in some blues
> recordings I tried.

Quite honestly, I've heard other Linkwitz designs and liked them, and
I was intrigued by these new ones.

Then again, I just want to get a pair of Harbeth 40.1s and an LFD amp
and get off this merry-go-round for good.