those pesky sony HD FM receivers

[Bill Noble[_2_]]

a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -

I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr

--
Bill -
www.wbnoble.com

[Audio Empire]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:11:41 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
(in article >):

> a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
> HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
> like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
> unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
> entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
> the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
> connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
> right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
> should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
> surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
> the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
> the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
> doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
> but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr
>
>

My experience with Sony equipment is that they are the "80%" company. Every
Sony product I have ever owned has been excellent - up to 80% of the "total
package". Something is always wrong or quirky. It's either a design decision
or an interface booboo, or a reliability problem. How about an HD camcorder
where the built-in microphones are omni-directional? The sound of the
operator breathing is louder than the audio that one is trying to capture
with the video! How about a gorgeous jewel of a portable stereo cassette
recorder. Dolby B, servo capstan for low wow-and flutter, etc. Comes with a
leather field case. Case has no window on it to allow operator to see LED
record indicators! How about a "special" rechargeable battery that when it
wore-out couldn't be replaced because Sony had stopped making them, and the
form factor was such that a third-party solution couldn't be found either!
How about a $4000 SACD player that refuses, every now and again, to output
any sound when playing a disc (CD or SACD)? Luckily, turning the unit off and
back on again has always solved the problem. How about a Sony HDTV that won't
allow the user any control over aspect ratio? If you play a DVD of an old 4:3
standard movie or TV program, the Sony TV assumes that because it's coming in
through the component video inputs that the program is high-definition and
therefore needs to be anamorphically stretched and does so and YOU can't
defeat it. How about a very expensive semi-pro reel-to-reel tape recorders
that makes excellent recordings, except that it goes through capstan motors
so quickly, that Sony quickly used up all the spares made? The recorder
became a useless lump less than 5-years after bought new.

I could go on. Needless to say, I don't buy Sony any more. I've had my fill
of unreliable, unfinished products from them.

[isw]

In article >,
"Bill Noble" > wrote:

> a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
> HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
> like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
> unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
> entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
> the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
> connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
> right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
> should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
> surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
> the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
> the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
> doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
> but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr

For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.

You'd think they'd learn...

OTOH, I've gotten some nice pieces of gear for the price of inspecting
those boards for the telltale circular cracks, and redoing them.

Isaac

[sparky]

On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw > wrote:
> In article >,
> =A0"Bill Noble" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery S=
ony
> > HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I do=
n't
> > like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - o=
n my
> > unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would =
quit
> > entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to =
get
> > the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces =
that
> > connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both br=
oken
> > right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - =
they
> > should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> > mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from th=
e
> > surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - =
so
> > the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the devi=
ce to
> > the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> > I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) =
- I
> > doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replac=
ed,
> > but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grr=
r
>
> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.


And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
times.

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
(in article >):

> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw > wrote:
>> In article >,
>> =A0"Bill Noble" > wrote:

<snip for length>

>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
>
> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
> times.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
(>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead, it
would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more likely
to crack.

Audio_Empire

[Bill Noble[_2_]]

"Audio Empire" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw > wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> =A0"Bill Noble" > wrote:
>
> <snip for length>
>
>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>>
>>
>> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
>> times.
>
> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead,
> it
> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more
> likely
> to crack.
>
> Audio_Empire

you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was the
circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibration
induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the heat
of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke, and I
had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has one,
they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
(in article >):

> "Audio Empire" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw > wrote:
>>>> In article >,
>>>> =A0"Bill Noble" > wrote:
>>
>> <snip for length>
>>
>>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>>>
>>>
>>> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
>>> times.
>>
>> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
>> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead,
>> it
>> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more
>> likely
>> to crack.
>>
>> Audio_Empire
>
> you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
> have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was the
> circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibration
> induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the heat
> of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke, and I
> had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has one,
> they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)

I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacturers in
China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN make
some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client company is
about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
variable.

[sparky]

On Dec 31 2009, 11:28=A0pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Dec 31, 8:35=3DA0am, Audio Empire > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
> > (in article >):
>
> > > "Audio Empire" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> > >> (in article >):
>
> > >>> On Dec 28, 3:50=3D3DA0pm, isw > wrote:
> > >>>> In article >,
> > >>>> =3D3DA0"Bill Noble" > wrote:
>
> > >> <snip for length>
>
> > >>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had pro=
bl=3D
> ems
> > >>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
> > >>> And now with =3DA0lead free solder the problem has increased by sev=
eral
> > >>> times.
>
> > >> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is most=
ly=3D
> =A0tin
> > >> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the =
le=3D
> ad,
> > >> it
> > >> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much mo=
re
> > >> likely
> > >> to crack.
>
> > >> Audio_Empire
>
> > > you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may=
n=3D
> ot
> > > have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it wa=
s =3D
> the
> > > circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibr=
at=3D
> ion
> > > induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to th=
e =3D
> heat
> > > of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke=
, =3D
> and I
> > > had to fix it. =3DA0 (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG=
has=3D
> =A0one,
> > > they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)
>
> > I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacture=
rs=3D
> =A0in
> > China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN m=
ak=3D
> e
> > some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client compa=
ny=3D
> =A0is
> > about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
> > variable.
>
> Just a couple of points. =A0Being less pliable than leaded solders
> doesn't result in lead free being more brittle. =A0I've seen comparative
> cross sections of solder joints after =A0thousand of temperature
> cycles. =A0Some lead free joints had no cracks, in fact looked nearly
> new, while leaded solder looked like the greenland icecap with
> fractures everywhere.
> The biggest problem with lead free solder is increase reflow temp
> requirements that can cause poor quality printed wiring boards a
> problem which often shows up as pad delamination from the board and a
> fracture at the trace pad connection. =A0Making matters worse, it would
> not surprise me if the board in question was single sided and had no
> through hole plating putting any mechanical stress from the connector
> completely into the pad.
>
> In any case, virtually every circuit card assembly made in China these
> days is lead free. =A0Asking a contract manufacturer to assemble with
> leaded solder practically requires a dedicated line as they don't want
> any cross contramination. =A0It's now the exception rather than the rule
> and comes with an added cost.
>
> ScottW- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Due to several reasons , equipment built with lead free solder is not
as reliable as conventional solder.

That is why medical and military equipment are exempt from the ban on
leaded solder.

[Bill Noble[_2_]]

"Audio Empire" > wrote in message
...

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

>> you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
>> have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was
>> the
>> circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a
>> vibration
>> induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the
>> heat
>> of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke,
>> and I
>> had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has
>> one,
>> they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)
>
> I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacturers
> in
> China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN make
> some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client company
> is
> about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
> variable.

I checked - the case does say made in China.

And, in response to the reflow temperature - the failure was at the trace to
pad connection, and there holes were not plated through. So, as I said,
another downtick for "Sony = Quality"

so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has the modern circuitry
of the little Sony unit but adds the following features:

1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it comes on when I turn
on the stereo master switch)
2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station that it was on when
power was removed (not an issue with older units that had a mechanical
tuner)
3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the top

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 16:28:44 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
(in article >):

> "Audio Empire" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [quoted text deleted -- deb]
>
>>> you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
>>> have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was
>>> the
>>> circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a
>>> vibration
>>> induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the
>>> heat
>>> of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke,
>>> and I
>>> had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has
>>> one,
>>> they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)
>>
>> I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacturers
>> in
>> China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN make
>> some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client company
>> is
>> about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
>> variable.
>
> I checked - the case does say made in China.
>
> And, in response to the reflow temperature - the failure was at the trace to
> pad connection, and there holes were not plated through. So, as I said,
> another downtick for "Sony = Quality"
>
> so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has the modern circuitry
> of the little Sony unit but adds the following features:
>
> 1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it comes on when I turn
> on the stereo master switch)
> 2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station that it was on when
> power was removed (not an issue with older units that had a mechanical
> tuner)
> 3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the top
>

But how does it sound? Is the digital FM good quality? Have you listened to
any digital AM (or does it even do that, I don't recall), and if so, what
does that sound like?

[Harry Lavo]

"Bill Noble" > wrote in message
...
> "Audio Empire" > wrote in message
> ...
>

>snip<

>
> so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has the modern
> circuitry
> of the little Sony unit but adds the following features:
>
> 1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it comes on when I
> turn
> on the stereo master switch)
> 2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station that it was on
> when
> power was removed (not an issue with older units that had a mechanical
> tuner)
> 3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the top


Like a real tuner, you mean?

[Arny Krueger]

"Bill Noble" > wrote in message


> so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has
> the modern circuitry of the little Sony unit but adds the
> following features:

> 1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it
> comes on when I turn on the stereo master switch)
> 2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station
> that it was on when power was removed (not an issue with
> older units that had a mechanical tuner)
> 3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the
> top

Have you checked out Sangean's line of FM radios?

I notice that for example their WFR-1 is a "digital radio" with line out
jacks, so it could easily be connected to a hifi system.

http://www.sangean.com/products/spec/products_spec_WFR-1.asp?pid=55&mid=6&pan=2&um=3

[Bill Noble[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Noble" > wrote in message
>
>
>> so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has
>> the modern circuitry of the little Sony unit but adds the
>> following features:
>
>> 1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it
>> comes on when I turn on the stereo master switch)
>> 2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station
>> that it was on when power was removed (not an issue with
>> older units that had a mechanical tuner)
>> 3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the
>> top
>
> Have you checked out Sangean's line of FM radios?
>
> I notice that for example their WFR-1 is a "digital radio" with line out
> jacks, so it could easily be connected to a hifi system.
>
> http://www.sangean.com/products/spec/products_spec_WFR-1.asp?pid=55&mid=6&pan=2&um=3

that looks nice, but what I want, as another poster so nicely put it, is a
"real tuner" - actually, I have several "real tuners" but they are older
technology and this sony actually works better and decodes HD FM - it sounds
fine, it just annoys the **** out of me - and no, I haven't tried the AM -
here in the west coast wasteland there is nothing I've found worth listening
to on AM since KRLA terminated the credibility gap (ok, that's a test -
anyone remember the show? or Lohman and Barkley's show?)
>

[Arny Krueger]

"Bill Noble" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Bill Noble" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> so, guys, is there a modestly priced receiver that has
>>> the modern circuitry of the little Sony unit but adds
>>> the following features:
>>
>>> 1. it turns on automatically when power applied (so it
>>> comes on when I turn on the stereo master switch)
>>> 2. when power is applied, it is on the band and station
>>> that it was on when power was removed (not an issue with
>>> older units that had a mechanical tuner)
>>> 3. controls and indicators are on the front, not on the
>>> top
>>
>> Have you checked out Sangean's line of FM radios?
>>
>> I notice that for example their WFR-1 is a "digital
>> radio" with line out jacks, so it could easily be
>> connected to a hifi system.
>>
>> http://www.sangean.com/products/spec/products_spec_WFR-1.asp?pid=55&mid=6&pan=2&um=3
>
> that looks nice, but what I want, as another poster so
> nicely put it, is a "real tuner" - actually, I have
> several "real tuners" but they are older technology and
> this sony actually works better and decodes HD FM

I did a little research. The Sony radio is based on chips developed by
Philips and now sold by a spin-off of theirs.

So, the question becomes who is their competition in DSP-based baseband
radio processors, and what radios do they show up in?

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/06/prweb394596.htm

One competitor is TI, but I can't find any mention of on-the-shelf products
using them.

Another competitor is Frontier Silicon, who claims to have sold millions of
chips like these, but is mum about which radios use them.

Ths PR item for Frontier Digital mentions Samsung, but in the context of
cell phones, which are built using similar technology. Later on the same PR
item mentions Bang & Olufsen, Denon, Grundig, JVC, Philips, PURE Digital,
Roberts Radio, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and TEAC as customers.

Presumably, there is branded product from some of these sources that is not
yet another "real tuner", but rather uses virtual, DSP-based technology.

[Bill Noble[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Noble" > wrote in message
>

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

>> that looks nice, but what I want, as another poster so
>> nicely put it, is a "real tuner" - actually, I have
>> several "real tuners" but they are older technology and
>> this sony actually works better and decodes HD FM
>
> I did a little research. The Sony radio is based on chips developed by
> Philips and now sold by a spin-off of theirs.
>
> So, the question becomes who is their competition in DSP-based baseband
> radio processors, and what radios do they show up in?
>
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/06/prweb394596.htm
>
> One competitor is TI, but I can't find any mention of on-the-shelf
> products
> using them.
>
> Another competitor is Frontier Silicon, who claims to have sold millions
> of
> chips like these, but is mum about which radios use them.
>
> Ths PR item for Frontier Digital mentions Samsung, but in the context of
> cell phones, which are built using similar technology. Later on the same
> PR
> item mentions Bang & Olufsen, Denon, Grundig, JVC, Philips, PURE Digital,
> Roberts Radio, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and TEAC as customers.
>
> Presumably, there is branded product from some of these sources that is
> not
> yet another "real tuner", but rather uses virtual, DSP-based technology.

Interesting research - maybe this is a hopeless quest and I should just give
up - put the old tuner back and just ignore the lesser quality - sometimes
the best sounding thing is just so annoying that one can happily settle for
second best - kinda like my stereo itself - it sounds just great but is so
annoying to turn on that I rarely use it