"Foot tap Bass" - pickup suggestions?

[Charles Thomas]

I play some solo and duo acoustic gigs.

I have a 18"x12"x4.5" sealed birch box that I built that I tap on with
my foot to create a "kick drum" kind of sound with which to accompany
myself. Sticking a SM57 in it (there's a hole in one side) and running
it into the PA with some 'verb creates a pretty reasonable sounding kick
drum.

The problem is that it also picks up just about everything else on the
stage too. I was wondering if perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
(like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.

Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
$500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
D4" or something along those lines?

Thanks!

CT

[Rick]

Charles Thomas wrote:

> Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> $500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
> D4" or something along those lines?


Or, none of the above? Maybe you sound better without it?


Rick

[Les Cargill]

Charles Thomas wrote:
>
> I play some solo and duo acoustic gigs.
>
> I have a 18"x12"x4.5" sealed birch box that I built that I tap on with
> my foot to create a "kick drum" kind of sound with which to accompany
> myself. Sticking a SM57 in it (there's a hole in one side) and running
> it into the PA with some 'verb creates a pretty reasonable sounding kick
> drum.
>
> The problem is that it also picks up just about everything else on the
> stage too. I was wondering if perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
> choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
> (like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
>

I'm guessing this is essentially making a big Helmholtz resonator-pickup
because of mechanical contact with the stage itself. Have you tried any
of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
would probably work.

> Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> $500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
> D4" or something along those lines?
>
> Thanks!
>
> CT


--
Les Cargill

[Charles Thomas]

In article >, Rick >
wrote:

> Or, none of the above? Maybe you sound better without it?

It never ceases to amaze me what people will take the time to type up
and send.

CT

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
Les Cargill > wrote:

> I'm guessing this is essentially making a big Helmholtz resonator-pickup
> because of mechanical contact with the stage itself. Have you tried any
> of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> would probably work.

I guess I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?

In my experience stuff transmitted from the stage to the box isn't as
much of a problem as that external sound still makes it inside the box
and is transmitted to the mic.

So a little of my voice and guitar are being picked up along with my
foot taps, and it makes for a messy mix along with having the potential
for feeding back.

That's why I thought maybe a transducer of some kind might be a better
choice. I've also never used a PZM mic, and when Melissa Etheridge did
her solo tour she put a PZM mic on the stage and stomped on the stage to
accompany herself. Hence my line of thinking there.



CT

[Steve O'Neill]

John Hartford had a 4x8' sheet of plywood with a Barcus-Berry pickup in it. He
stood on it and basically tap-danced. Would a contact pickup like that, mounted
where you kick it (but on the inside), be a good solution?

Charles Thomas wrote:

> In article >,
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>
>
>>I'm guessing this is essentially making a big Helmholtz resonator-pickup
>>because of mechanical contact with the stage itself. Have you tried any
>>of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
>>boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
>>would probably work.
>
>
> I guess I'm not sure what you're talking about.
>
> Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
>
> In my experience stuff transmitted from the stage to the box isn't as
> much of a problem as that external sound still makes it inside the box
> and is transmitted to the mic.
>
> So a little of my voice and guitar are being picked up along with my
> foot taps, and it makes for a messy mix along with having the potential
> for feeding back.
>
> That's why I thought maybe a transducer of some kind might be a better
> choice. I've also never used a PZM mic, and when Melissa Etheridge did
> her solo tour she put a PZM mic on the stage and stomped on the stage to
> accompany herself. Hence my line of thinking there.
>
>
>
> CT

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
Steve O'Neill > wrote:

> John Hartford had a 4x8' sheet of plywood with a Barcus-Berry pickup in it.
> He
> stood on it and basically tap-danced. Would a contact pickup like that,
> mounted
> where you kick it (but on the inside), be a good solution?

I was definitely thinking it would, but wanted to see if anyone had any
thoughts about it based on experience, or perhaps reasons why it
wouldn't work.

Thanks for the post.

CT

[Les Cargill]

Charles Thomas wrote:
>
> In article >,
> Les Cargill > wrote:
>
> > I'm guessing this is essentially making a big Helmholtz resonator-pickup
> > because of mechanical contact with the stage itself. Have you tried any
> > of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> > boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> > would probably work.
>
> I guess I'm not sure what you're talking about.
>
> Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
>

Yes. That's not the "everything on the stage" problem?

A box onstage is gonna get a lot more energy ( of so I'd think )
from mechanical coupling than acoustic coupling. Or so I'd think.

> In my experience stuff transmitted from the stage to the box isn't as
> much of a problem as that external sound still makes it inside the box
> and is transmitted to the mic.
>

Oh. Ok. Woops.

> So a little of my voice and guitar are being picked up along with my
> foot taps, and it makes for a messy mix along with having the potential
> for feeding back.
>

I bet so. It'd be like having a mic inside a guitar body,
which makes for a fine feedback gatherer.

> That's why I thought maybe a transducer of some kind might be a better
> choice. I've also never used a PZM mic, and when Melissa Etheridge did
> her solo tour she put a PZM mic on the stage and stomped on the stage to
> accompany herself. Hence my line of thinking there.

But you can "make" a PZM outta a condenser element taped
to the side of the box, so I doubt it'll help that much.

Maybe it's a contact pickup/peizo thing? Dunno.

>
> CT


--
Les Cargill

[Rick]

Charles Thomas wrote:

> It never ceases to amaze me what people will take the time to type up
> and send.


Hey, I'm not in the audience, so I really don't care. I'm just thinking
that if I was, that the big "boom" would be a distraction. You left out
the obvious choice, which was to skip it.


Rick

[NeilH011]

>perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
>choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
>(like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
>$500"

Buy a doumbek for $700? Seriously, though, I'd try the piezo pickup. I'd tend
to think a PZM would probably make things worse if that box is pretty tightly
fitted together. I'd also experiment with mounting the pickup on both the
inside & the outside of the box & see which works best.

NeilH

[John Noll]

Steve O'Neill wrote:
> John Hartford had a 4x8' sheet of plywood with a Barcus-Berry pickup in
> it. He stood on it and basically tap-danced. Would a contact pickup
> like that, mounted where you kick it (but on the inside), be a good
> solution?


When I saw this post I immediately thought of John Hartford.
I saw him about 25 years ago doing the Barcus-Berry on the plywood board
thing. I don't remember what it sounded like (I wasn't a recording
engineer yet) but I remember being impressed by it.

A contact pickup would be cheap so why not try it?

As for the boominess from your other attempts, try some thin neoprene
rubber between the pickup/mic and the floor. Experiment a little.

--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

[Les Cargill]

NeilH011 wrote:
>
> >perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
> >choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
> >(like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
> >
> >Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> >$500"
>
> Buy a doumbek for $700? Seriously, though, I'd try the piezo pickup. I'd tend
> to think a PZM would probably make things worse if that box is pretty tightly
> fitted together.

Yeah, and I shoulda said that, too.

> I'd also experiment with mounting the pickup on both the
> inside & the outside of the box & see which works best.
>
> NeilH


--
Les Cargill

[Rob Reedijk]

Rick > wrote:

> Hey, I'm not in the audience, so I really don't care. I'm just thinking
> that if I was, that the big "boom" would be a distraction. You left out
> the obvious choice, which was to skip it.

You've never heard of Stompin' Tom Connors.

Rob R.

[Steve O'Neill]

It sounded just like you'd hope - boots tapping plywood! Clear and clean, it
was a great effect.

John Noll wrote:

> When I saw this post I immediately thought of John Hartford.
> I saw him about 25 years ago doing the Barcus-Berry on the plywood board
> thing. I don't remember what it sounded like

[Charles Thomas]

Many thanks to everyone who replied.

I'm going to try to find a pickup on eBay that would work.

CT

[Dave Martin]

"Charles Thomas" > wrote in
message news:cthomas->
> The solo acoustic thing is all well and good, but every once in a while
> a little drum beat keeps things lively.
>
Sure - I remember back in the pre-drum machine days seeing singer/guitarists
tapping a foot on a tambourine. It also kept things lively.
--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Mike Caffrey]

In article >, Charles
Thomas > wrote:

> I play some solo and duo acoustic gigs.
>
> I have a 18"x12"x4.5" sealed birch box that I built that I tap on with
> my foot to create a "kick drum" kind of sound with which to accompany
> myself. Sticking a SM57 in it (there's a hole in one side) and running
> it into the PA with some 'verb creates a pretty reasonable sounding kick
> drum.
>
> The problem is that it also picks up just about everything else on the
> stage too. I was wondering if perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
> choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
> (like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> $500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
> D4" or something along those lines?
>
> Thanks!
>
> CT

How about an 8 inch Radioshak woofer wired backwards as a mic?



www.monsterisland.com

[mr c deckard]

you can get a piezo element from a surplus store for $.50. connector
and wire and yer up to $3.

there issues will be feedback (the box/pickup system will have a
resonance) and the rather unatural sound of the pickup. now you're
into some serious eq. . . (at least more than those 3 band eqs on the
little mackies).

it will definitely help keep acoustic bleed out, and some dampening
material inside the box may help tame some of the resonances . . .

all the best,
c. deckard







Charles Thomas > wrote in message >...
> I play some solo and duo acoustic gigs.
>
> I have a 18"x12"x4.5" sealed birch box that I built that I tap on with
> my foot to create a "kick drum" kind of sound with which to accompany
> myself. Sticking a SM57 in it (there's a hole in one side) and running
> it into the PA with some 'verb creates a pretty reasonable sounding kick
> drum.
>
> The problem is that it also picks up just about everything else on the
> stage too. I was wondering if perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
> choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
> (like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> $500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
> D4" or something along those lines?
>
> Thanks!
>
> CT

[Les Cargill]

Charles Thomas wrote:
>
> Many thanks to everyone who replied.
>
> I'm going to try to find a pickup on eBay that would work.
>
> CT

FWIW, I think those Pick Up The World things are cheap.
--
Les Cargill

[Sean S]

Les Cargill > laid this on me:

> Charles Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Many thanks to everyone who replied.
>>
>> I'm going to try to find a pickup on eBay that would work.
>>
>> CT
>
> FWIW, I think those Pick Up The World things are cheap.
> --
> Les Cargill
>

and good. (if you define good as 'woody, natural sound')

Sean

[Charles Thomas]

As it turns out I actually HAD some piezo pickups, but I didn't know it.

I was unaware that drum triggers are nothing more than piezo pickups, so
I tossed one of the drum driggers I wasn't using onto the box.
Actually, I routed a holder for it, then screwed the holder to the top
of the box where the trigger was held snugly against the top piece of
wood.

The result has not been very satisfactory. Whereas the microphone gave
me a deeper, bass-drum kind of sound the pickup seems to only pickup
higher frequencies sounding something like what you'd hear if you rapped
your knuckles on a desktop.

With some major EQ'ing it might be made to work, but it's not as good as
the sound I'd been getting with the microphone. However the ambient
noise was reduced significantly.

The experimentation continues.

CT

[Keith W Blackwell]

Les Cargill > wrote in message >...
> Charles Thomas wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Les Cargill > wrote:
> > > ... Have you tried any
> > > of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> > > boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> > > would probably work.
> >
> > Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
>
> Yes. ...

I beg you to consider that you might be mistaken. What comes to my mind
from your description of "speaker spikes" are objects intended to cause
speakers to transfer some acoustic energy to the hard floor underneath
carpet -- quite the opposite of mechanical decoupling.

--
Keith W Blackwell

[Jay Kadis]

In article >
(Keith W Blackwell) writes:
> Les Cargill > wrote in message
>...
> > Charles Thomas wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > Les Cargill > wrote:
> > > > ... Have you tried any
> > > > of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> > > > boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> > > > would probably work.
> > >
> > > Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
> >
> > Yes. ...
>
> I beg you to consider that you might be mistaken. What comes to my mind
> from your description of "speaker spikes" are objects intended to cause
> speakers to transfer some acoustic energy to the hard floor underneath
> carpet -- quite the opposite of mechanical decoupling.
>
> --
> Keith W Blackwell

Having just wrestled with Sound Anchor stands and spikes, I think the spikes
(are supposed to) create an acoustical impedance mismatch that prevent most of
the stand vibration from effectively coupling to the floor.

Or they could just be a plot by hardwood floor refinishers to drum up
business...

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Michael R. Kesti]

Charles Thomas wrote:

>As it turns out I actually HAD some piezo pickups, but I didn't know it.
>
>I was unaware that drum triggers are nothing more than piezo pickups, so
>I tossed one of the drum driggers I wasn't using onto the box.
>Actually, I routed a holder for it, then screwed the holder to the top
>of the box where the trigger was held snugly against the top piece of
>wood.
>
>The result has not been very satisfactory. Whereas the microphone gave
>me a deeper, bass-drum kind of sound the pickup seems to only pickup
>higher frequencies sounding something like what you'd hear if you rapped
>your knuckles on a desktop.
>
>With some major EQ'ing it might be made to work, but it's not as good as
>the sound I'd been getting with the microphone. However the ambient
>noise was reduced significantly.
>
>The experimentation continues.

I have no doubt that a piezo element, amplified as one wuld do with a
microphone, sounds pretty bad. If you run that piezo into an Alesis D4
or DM5's trigger input, though, and use it to trigger one of the module's
kick drum samples, I suspect you will get far better results.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

[Les Cargill]

Keith W Blackwell wrote:
>
> Les Cargill > wrote in message >...
> > Charles Thomas wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > Les Cargill > wrote:
> > > > ... Have you tried any
> > > > of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> > > > boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> > > > would probably work.
> > >
> > > Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
> >
> > Yes. ...
>
> I beg you to consider that you might be mistaken. What comes to my mind
> from your description of "speaker spikes" are objects intended to cause
> speakers to transfer some acoustic energy to the hard floor underneath
> carpet -- quite the opposite of mechanical decoupling.
>

No kidding? I stand corrected.

> --
> Keith W Blackwell


--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Jay Kadis wrote:
>
> In article >
> (Keith W Blackwell) writes:
> > Les Cargill > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Charles Thomas wrote:
> > > > In article >,
> > > > Les Cargill > wrote:
> > > > > ... Have you tried any
> > > > > of the little "speaker spikes" the audiophyles sell to isolate speaker
> > > > > boxes? Anything that screws into the box with a point on the other end
> > > > > would probably work.
> > > >
> > > > Is this something to mechanically decouple the box from the stage?
> > >
> > > Yes. ...
> >
> > I beg you to consider that you might be mistaken. What comes to my mind
> > from your description of "speaker spikes" are objects intended to cause
> > speakers to transfer some acoustic energy to the hard floor underneath
> > carpet -- quite the opposite of mechanical decoupling.
> >
> > --
> > Keith W Blackwell
>
> Having just wrestled with Sound Anchor stands and spikes, I think the spikes
> (are supposed to) create an acoustical impedance mismatch that prevent most of
> the stand vibration from effectively coupling to the floor.
>

This is what I thought, but Keith's post rang very true. Although my experience
is that *de*coupling from floors is a Good Thing.

> Or they could just be a plot by hardwood floor refinishers to drum up
> business...
>
> -Jay
> --
> x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
> x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
> x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
> x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x


--
Les Cargill

[Byron G Jacquot]

> >The result has not been very satisfactory. Whereas the microphone gave
> >me a deeper, bass-drum kind of sound the pickup seems to only pickup
> >higher frequencies sounding something like what you'd hear if you rapped
> >your knuckles on a desktop.

> I have no doubt that a piezo element, amplified as one wuld do with a
> microphone, sounds pretty bad. If you run that piezo into an Alesis D4
> or DM5's trigger input, though, and use it to trigger one of the module's
> kick drum samples, I suspect you will get far better results.

Try out some different piezos. I built a bass-drum like device that
used surgical tubing, and used a piezo pickup on it. The tonality
varied quite a bit with different pickups.

I had a black plastic encased piezo disc that sounded like you describe:
more a knocking than a booming.

I tried a unencased disc (a ~1" circle of gold metal with the crystal on
one side), and it was much better for the bass tone. Very easy to get a
satisfactory boom from it.

My thought is that the casing on the enclosed sensor had a high
frequency resonance in the plastic chamber, which accentuated
frequencies I didn't want. The exposed one was better for capturing the
low frequencies.

They're both a couple of bucks at Radio Shack...and if you're careful,
you can dismantle the plastic housing to extract the raw disc.

Byron Jacquot

[[email protected]]

On 2003-09-09 said:
>"Charles Thomas" >
>wrote in message news:cthomas->
>> The solo acoustic thing is all well and good, but every once in a
>>while a little drum beat keeps things lively.
>Sure - I remember back in the pre-drum machine days seeing
>singer/guitarists tapping a foot on a tambourine. It also kept
>things lively. --
YEs sir, and I remember playing the tambourine by holding it with my
foot and beating it against my leg by rocking my foot back and forth.

THen there's Patrick Hazel whom many midwesterners have probably seen,
with the electric piano and all the blues harps. HE plays a bass drum
with one foot, I believe a 24 incher.

Regards,




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[Dave Martin]

> wrote in message
.. .

> THen there's Patrick Hazel whom many midwesterners have probably seen,
> with the electric piano and all the blues harps. HE plays a bass drum
> with one foot, I believe a 24 incher.
>
> Regards,
>
You reminded me of a blind guy that used to play in West Texas when I was a
kid - he'd play bass with his left hand (Hammering on the strings) drums
with his feet and his right hand, a harmonica, and would sing old country
songs. It sounded surprisingly good...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
Byron G Jacquot > wrote:

>
> I tried a unencased disc (a ~1" circle of gold metal with the crystal on
> one side), and it was much better for the bass tone. Very easy to get a
> satisfactory boom from it.
>
> My thought is that the casing on the enclosed sensor had a high
> frequency resonance in the plastic chamber, which accentuated
> frequencies I didn't want. The exposed one was better for capturing the
> low frequencies.
>
> They're both a couple of bucks at Radio Shack...and if you're careful,
> you can dismantle the plastic housing to extract the raw disc.

Thanks Byron!

CT

[Gary]

wrote in message >...
> THen there's Patrick Hazel whom many midwesterners have probably seen,
> with the electric piano and all the blues harps. HE plays a bass drum
> with one foot, I believe a 24 incher.

He must have a heck of a time buying shoes!

[[email protected]]

On 8-Sep-2003, Charles Thomas >
wrote:

> The problem is that it also picks up just about everything else on the
> stage too. I was wondering if perhaps a PZM mic would be a better
> choice for putting inside the box, or if some kind of peizo transducer
> (like an acoustic guitar under-bridge pickup) would be better.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions besides "buy a Porchboard Bass for
> $500" or "use a MIDI trigger and a kick pedal and run it into an Alesis
> D4" or something along those lines?

Charles:

Perhaps you might like to look at the passive SBT pickups at
Pick-Up-The-World:

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/

I believe some people have used them for the same purpose as you are
interested in.

Gordon

[[email protected]]

On 2003-09-11 said:
>> THen there's Patrick Hazel whom many midwesterners have probably
>>seen, with the electric piano and all the blues harps. HE plays
>>a bass drum with one foot, I believe a 24 incher.
>You reminded me of a blind guy that used to play in West Texas when
>I was a kid - he'd play bass with his left hand (Hammering on the
>strings) drums with his feet and his right hand, a harmonica, and
>would sing old country songs. It sounded surprisingly good...
I bet. I saw a guy in a club in eastern Iowa about 20 some years ago
that had some kind of string bass that he played with his feet while
he played acoustic guitar. nOw I know I was drinking some at the time
and never got a close look at that contraption but I never saw the guy
again anywhere around. AGain it sounded surprisingly good. I recall
asking a friend about it because I was wondering how the guy got the
bass happening since I knew it was a single act. HE described the
contraption to me. HE noted it with his left foot while the right
played it by tapping on the strings. Of course they were rather wide
set apart to make this easier. IIRC it was a homebuilt contraption as
well.

rEgards,



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[Byron G Jacquot]

> Those things are fun. I made a simple electric bass with a couple...
>
> http://www.thoughtdog.com/doodlebass.php

That's almost exactly the pickup arrangement I used on my surgical tube
bass drum, only I've got terrycloth wrapped around the saddle, to cut
the sustain back a bit!

Byron Jacquot

[Charles Thomas]

In article >,
Byron G Jacquot > wrote:

> http://www.thoughtdog.com/doodlebass.php

I can't get this page to load.

CT