DVD audio ?

[Joel Embry]

Is this gaining or declining in popularity?

Joel

[Jay - atldigi]

In article <0yQ6b.19659$n94.14337@fed1read04>, "Joel Embry"
> wrote:

> Is this gaining or declining in popularity?
>
> Joel


Slowly gaining, but it's still early. It could suddenly ramp up or it
could die quietly in the night. Even if it makes substantial gains, it
likely won't ever have the acceptance of something like a DVD-V or CD.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

[DaveDrummer]

Too early to tell. It will bleed in, but the CD will still be the standard
well into its rising IMO

"Joel Embry" > wrote in message
news:0yQ6b.19659$n94.14337@fed1read04...
> Is this gaining or declining in popularity?
>
> Joel
>
>

[John LeBlanc]

"Jay - atldigi" > wrote in message
...
> In article <0yQ6b.19659$n94.14337@fed1read04>, "Joel Embry"
> > wrote:
>
> > Is this gaining or declining in popularity?
>
> Slowly gaining, but it's still early. It could suddenly ramp up or it
> could die quietly in the night. Even if it makes substantial gains, it
> likely won't ever have the acceptance of something like a DVD-V or CD.

I've wondered about this. It's interesting that such a crappy, quality-murdering
format like MPEG Audio Layer 3 could have gained such a wide, religious
following, but I think it points squarely at accessibility, rather than quality.
I think that's clearly a function of media storage ability.

Now that the MP3 genii is out of the bottle, Joe Average expects 1Mb = 1 Minute
of audio. A single-sided 4.7Gb DVD can "only" hold ~460 minutes of
44.1KHz/16-bit audio. The just-around-the-corner-no-really-they-are blue lasers
bump that up about four times the current DVD, but that remains a far cry from
current 4,700 minutes of acceptible audio on a DVD. Crazy, isn't it?

As much as I wish the bulk of audio consumers really cared about high quality
audio, it seems they are perfectly willing to trade accessibility for quality. I
don't believe CDs became enormously popular and killed off LPs because they
sounded good; they were infinitely easier to play at the beach and in the car
and at the exercise club. I can't see quality being the Ace when it comes to a
new digital format.

Maybe greater amounts of affordable storage will allow for 256Kb rather than
128Kb MP3 (or MP*) but I doubt it. Then again when you get right down to it,
relatively speaking there really aren't that many home stereos, car stereos, or
portable units that do an adequate job with CD audio today.

Still, when my project is done, you guys will do the mastering. I'm not Joe
Average, you know. :)

John

[Jim Gilliland]

serious fun wrote:

> The good thing is that DVD-A is a DVD-V, and the purchase should be
> transparent to a DVD player owner unless he or she is seeking the high
> resolution audio offered. I think that within a few years, it will be hard
> to buy a new player, even in the lowest price ranges, which is not
> compatible with DVD in some way. Adding a CD-audio layer could truly make
> DVD-A the only medium necessary.

If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how many
such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is at
least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,00.html

[david]

In article >, Jim
Gilliland > wrote:

> If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
> direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
> DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how many
> such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is at
> least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
>
> http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,00.html


Sony has something similiar.

The wierd thing is buying a DVD player to get SACD. Just doesn't kinda
make any sense, does it, a DVD player for good Cd playback??



David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

[Andrew M.]

I thought that the DVD-A layer uses UDF(universal disc format), and that
the DVD-V uses a proprietary Sony Phillips format. So I don't believe
that DVD-A=DVD-V. I believe that many content providers are putting UDF
on one layer and Sony Phillips format (DVD-V) on another layer so that
their is compatibility with DVD-V players that the majority of consumers
already own.





Jim Gilliland wrote:
> serious fun wrote:
>
>> The good thing is that DVD-A is a DVD-V, and the purchase should be
>> transparent to a DVD player owner unless he or she is seeking the high
>> resolution audio offered. I think that within a few years, it will be
>> hard
>> to buy a new player, even in the lowest price ranges, which is not
>> compatible with DVD in some way. Adding a CD-audio layer could truly make
>> DVD-A the only medium necessary.
>
>
> If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
> direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
> DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how many
> such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is at
> least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
>
> http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,00.html
>
>
>

[Jim Gilliland]

Andrew M. wrote:

> I thought that the DVD-A layer uses UDF(universal disc format), and that
> the DVD-V uses a proprietary Sony Phillips format. So I don't believe
> that DVD-A=DVD-V. I believe that many content providers are putting UDF
> on one layer and Sony Phillips format (DVD-V) on another layer so that
> their is compatibility with DVD-V players that the majority of consumers
> already own.

Both DVD-V and DVD-A are basically just DVD-ROM formats, so they're
pretty similar. Neither one can really be "proprietary", as they are
just directory structures on a computer disc. But as you note, they are
different. I only own one DVD-Audio disc, and it has DVD-A on one side
and DVD-V on the other, which tends to support your view. I don't know
whether or not it is possible to combine the two structures on a single
disc - I would think that some players might get awfully confused if you
tried.

[Andrew M.]

I own many titles that have both layers on one side of a disc.

Metallica - BLack album and Sting - 10 Summoners Tales and Steely Dan -
2 Against Nature to name a few.

DVD-A is UDF. It's NOT the same as DVD-V which is a Sony Phillips thing
just like CD audio.

They put them on seperate layers and your DVD-V player will only see the
DVD-V layer.

You just have to read the liner notes on one of these disc to see this.



Jim Gilliland wrote:

> Andrew M. wrote:
>
>> I thought that the DVD-A layer uses UDF(universal disc format), and
>> that the DVD-V uses a proprietary Sony Phillips format. So I don't
>> believe that DVD-A=DVD-V. I believe that many content providers are
>> putting UDF on one layer and Sony Phillips format (DVD-V) on another
>> layer so that their is compatibility with DVD-V players that the
>> majority of consumers already own.
>
>
> Both DVD-V and DVD-A are basically just DVD-ROM formats, so they're
> pretty similar. Neither one can really be "proprietary", as they are
> just directory structures on a computer disc. But as you note, they are
> different. I only own one DVD-Audio disc, and it has DVD-A on one side
> and DVD-V on the other, which tends to support your view. I don't know
> whether or not it is possible to combine the two structures on a single
> disc - I would think that some players might get awfully confused if you
> tried.
>

[Kurt Albershardt]

david wrote:

> In article >, Jim
> Gilliland > wrote:
>
>
>> If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
>> direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
>> DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how many
>> such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is at
>> least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
>>
>> http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,00.html
>
>
>
> Sony has something similiar.
>
> The wierd thing is buying a DVD player to get SACD. Just doesn't kinda
> make any sense, does it, a DVD player for good Cd playback??


They're all using the same basic transport (but with an added pit
watermarking twist for SACD.)

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html

[Andrew M.]

Kurt Albershardt wrote:
> david wrote:
>
>> In article >, Jim
>> Gilliland > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
>>> direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
>>> DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how
>>> many such players are on the market at present, but I know that there
>>> is at least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
>>>
>>> http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,00.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sony has something similiar.
>> The wierd thing is buying a DVD player to get SACD. Just doesn't kinda
>> make any sense, does it, a DVD player for good Cd playback??

They're all using the same basic transport (but with an added pit
> watermarking twist for SACD.)
>
The SACD is also encoded in a similar way to the Sony Phillips DVD-V
encoding.
So you are also paying for their decoder.
>

[reddred]

"Jay - atldigi" > wrote in message
...
> In article <0yQ6b.19659$n94.14337@fed1read04>, "Joel Embry"
> > wrote:
>
> > Is this gaining or declining in popularity?
> >
> > Joel
>
>
> Slowly gaining, but it's still early. It could suddenly ramp up or it
> could die quietly in the night. Even if it makes substantial gains, it
> likely won't ever have the acceptance of something like a DVD-V or CD.
>

I think there are two obstacles to it's acceptance - one, the offerings
don't have the value added features like the videos do, and two, the players
are not as widely available as they need to be.

jb

[William Sommerwerck]

You are overlooking the fact that the disks are grossly -- grotesquely --
overpriced.

I bought a bunch of SACDs -- mostly multi-channel recordings -- when I got my
player, but stopped after 15 or so, because they just plain cost too much.

> I think there are two obstacles to it's acceptance -- one, the offerings
> don't have the value added features like the videos do, and two, the
> players are not as widely available as they need to be.

[reddred]

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
> You are overlooking the fact that the disks are grossly -- grotesquely --
> overpriced.
>
> I bought a bunch of SACDs -- mostly multi-channel recordings -- when I got
my
> player, but stopped after 15 or so, because they just plain cost too much.
>
> > I think there are two obstacles to it's acceptance -- one, the offerings
> > don't have the value added features like the videos do, and two, the
> > players are not as widely available as they need to be.
>

And the appeal of dvd-v lies partly in the fact that many can be had for
less than the cost of a regular cd.

jb

[Kalman Rubinson]

Take a look at the Denon 2900, as well.

Kal


On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:37:30 -0700, "John L Rice" >
wrote:

>> >
>> >>If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
>> >>direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
>> >>DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how many
>> >>such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is at
>> >>least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
>> >>
>>
>>>http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,0
>0.html
>> >
>> >
>> > Sony has something similiar.
>>
>> If so, I can't find it on their website. They have plenty of SACD/DVD
>> players, but nothing that includes DVD-Audio.
>>
>> That's the hard part. There are lots of SACD/DVD players out there, and
>> lots of DVD/DVD-Audio players out there, but very few SACD/DVD/DVD-Audio
>> players. The one above is the only one I've seen to date.
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>The Onkyo DV-SP800 has been out a little while and plays all of the formats
>too. Around $1000 street. I'll think I'll give the Pioneer model a try in
>a month or so unless something better and relativaly inexpensive shows up.
>
>John L Rice

>
>
>

[John L Rice]

Thanks Kal, the Denon looks nice. But at $999 also I doubt that I'll be able
to get it. I just noticed the Marantz DV8400 too which plays all the
formats but is $1700 list.

John L Rice


"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote in message
...
> Take a look at the Denon 2900, as well.
>
> Kal
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:37:30 -0700, "John L Rice" >
> wrote:
>
> >> >
> >> >>If I buy a high-res audio player (and I'm starting to lean in that
> >> >>direction), it'll be one that can handle everything: CDs, CDR/Ws,
> >> >>DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 on CDR, JPEG on CDR, etc. I'm not sure how
many
> >> >>such players are on the market at present, but I know that there is
at
> >> >>least one out there.... sells for around $180 on the street:
> >> >>
> >>
>
>>>http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/product/detail/0,,2076_4139_2046370,
0
> >0.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sony has something similiar.
> >>
> >> If so, I can't find it on their website. They have plenty of SACD/DVD
> >> players, but nothing that includes DVD-Audio.
> >>
> >> That's the hard part. There are lots of SACD/DVD players out there,
and
> >> lots of DVD/DVD-Audio players out there, but very few
SACD/DVD/DVD-Audio
> >> players. The one above is the only one I've seen to date.
> >
> >Hi Jim,
> >
> >The Onkyo DV-SP800 has been out a little while and plays all of the
formats
> >too. Around $1000 street. I'll think I'll give the Pioneer model a try
in
> >a month or so unless something better and relativaly inexpensive shows
up.
> >
> >John L Rice
>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:24:41 -0700, "John L Rice" >
wrote:

>Thanks Kal, the Denon looks nice. But at $999 also I doubt that I'll be able
>to get it. I just noticed the Marantz DV8400 too which plays all the
>formats but is $1700 list.

I have that one and the $11K Linn right now, fwiw. There are
differences. ;-)

Kal

[John L Rice]

"Jay - atldigi" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kalman
> Rubinson > wrote:
>
> > Take a look at the Denon 2900, as well.
> >
>
> Denon has just released the new 2200 and 5900 as well ($629 and $2000
> repectively if memory serves). The 5900 adds HDCD, dual video DACs, the
> Faroudja chip, and a few other things. Also, Yamaha has a serious
> universal player (also with the Faroudja chip) similar to the 2900 and
> for the same price - $999. I can't recall the model number at the
> moment. None of these downsample the SACD's DSD to PCM. Many lower
> priced universal players do, so beware.
>
> --
> Jay Frigoletto
> Mastersuite
> Los Angeles
> promastering.com

So, should I assume the difference in sound quality between the less than
$200 Pioneer unit and the $1000+ units is going to be like the difference
between a bottom of the line Behringer mic pre and John Hardy / Great River
mic pres? ;-)

John L Rice