Level adjusting in Auditon and Audacity

[Gareth Magennis]

Hi,


I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition) ,where
the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter, I
would rather manually adjust things.

I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with ease
using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the audio.
As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and the
waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.

I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the same.
What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you do
this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the beginning
and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade these
in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
recording that makes any of this possible.


(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).



Cheers,



Gareth.

[Geoff]

Gareth Magennis wrote:
> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
> same. What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain.
> If you do this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain
> at the beginning and end of this region which is totally
> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is going to be a
> nightmare. There are no gaps in the recording that makes any of
> this possible.


Dunno about Audacity, but surely they have Volume Envelopes in Audition ?

geoff

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>
>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition) ,where
>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter, I
>would rather manually adjust things.
>
>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with ease
>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the audio.
>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and the
>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>
>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the same.
>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you do
>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the beginning
>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade these
>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>recording that makes any of this possible.
>
>
>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>
>Gareth.
>
>

You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
you like.

d

[Gareth Magennis]

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>
>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition) ,where
>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter,
>>I
>>would rather manually adjust things.
>>
>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with ease
>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
>>audio.
>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and
>>the
>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>>
>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
>>same.
>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you
>>do
>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>beginning
>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
>>these
>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>recording that makes any of this possible.
>>
>>
>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>>
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>>Gareth.
>>
>>
>
> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
> you like.
>
> d




Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does, so
how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real time
:)


Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.



Gareth.

[Geoff]

Gareth Magennis wrote:


>
>
>
> Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic
> does, so how do I know what I have just done and whether it is
> clipped or not? Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't
> just check in real time :)
>
>
> Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.

Yep. Stick to *reducing* the level. Normalise the file first if you like.
And use your ears, not your eyes.

If it is a 8 hour file, the chances are that it's going to take too long to
draw envelope too - visible waveform scaling or not. Sounds like
compression/limiting might be your best bet. Maybe with a noise-gate first.


geoff

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 23:57:02 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> wrote:

>
>"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition) ,where
>>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter,
>>>I
>>>would rather manually adjust things.
>>>
>>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with ease
>>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
>>>audio.
>>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
>>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
>>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and
>>>the
>>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
>>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>>>
>>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
>>>same.
>>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you
>>>do
>>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>>beginning
>>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
>>>these
>>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>>recording that makes any of this possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
>>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
>>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Gareth.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
>> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
>> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
>> you like.
>>
>> d
>
>
>
>
>Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does, so
>how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
>Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real time
>:)
>
>
>Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
>
>
>
>Gareth.
>
>

No, it doesn't redraw the waveform because it isn't changing it. What
it is doing is allowing you to draw a line (exactly as Logic did) to
set the volume - it is like a flying fader as opposed to an edit. The
process is non-destructive, and doesn't change the source in any way.

You can make it change the source by doing a mixdown, which
effectively "plays" the volume changes into a new file, which you can
save as a wav, mp3 etc.

It doesn't cause clipping, by the way.

Here is what it all looks like. This is a musical session, but you can
see the volume changes and fades drawn on the individual tracks.

http://81.174.169.10/odds/fades.gif

d

[Neil Gould]

Gareth Magennis wrote:
> "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
[...]
>>> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do
>>> the same.
>>> What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain.
>>> If you do
>>> this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>> beginning
>>> and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to
>>> fade these
>>> in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>> recording that makes any of this possible.
>>>
>>
>> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
>> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
>> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
>> you like.
>>
>> d
>
>
> Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic
> does, so how do I know what I have just done and whether it is
> clipped or not? Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't
> just check in real time :)
>
>
> Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
>
The waveform is drawn the same, but its "full multitrack view" size is
smaller than edit view. Two things can be of help: adjust the height of the
waveform window by dragging the lower edge down (if it is one track, mono or
stereo, you don't need to see the empty tracks); zoom in as much as needed
to get the needed resolution of the portion of the waveform that you want to
adjust. You can leave them that way while you work on the project, and those
setting will be saved for your next work session.

--
Best,

Neil

[Mike Rivers]

geoff wrote:

> If it is a 8 hour file, the chances are that it's going to take too long to
> draw envelope too - visible waveform scaling or not.

How do people get themselves into situations like this? An 8-hour file
with volume variations, where the volume variations are going to be a
problem? Who's going to listen to it? Can't you just give the listener a
volume control? Or is it elevator music? (in which case, compression is
definitely the answer)

[hank alrich]

Don Pearce > wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 23:57:02 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition) ,where
> >>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
> >>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter,
> >>>I
> >>>would rather manually adjust things.
> >>>
> >>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with ease
> >>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
> >>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
> >>>audio.
> >>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
> >>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
> >>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and
> >>>the
> >>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
> >>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
> >>>
> >>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
> >>>same.
> >>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you
> >>>do
> >>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
> >>>beginning
> >>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
> >>>these
> >>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
> >>>recording that makes any of this possible.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
> >>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
> >>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Cheers,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Gareth.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
> >> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
> >> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
> >> you like.
> >>
> >> d
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does, so
> >how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
> >Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real time
> >:)
> >
> >
> >Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
> >
> >
> >
> >Gareth.
> >
> >
>
> No, it doesn't redraw the waveform because it isn't changing it. What
> it is doing is allowing you to draw a line (exactly as Logic did) to
> set the volume - it is like a flying fader as opposed to an edit. The
> process is non-destructive, and doesn't change the source in any way.
>
> You can make it change the source by doing a mixdown, which
> effectively "plays" the volume changes into a new file, which you can
> save as a wav, mp3 etc.
>
> It doesn't cause clipping, by the way.
>
> Here is what it all looks like. This is a musical session, but you can
> see the volume changes and fades drawn on the individual tracks.
>
> http://81.174.169.10/odds/fades.gif
>
> d

Logic also does not redraw the waveform. The volume change/relative
level is indicated by the position of the the level automation line.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Arkansan Raider]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> geoff wrote:
>
>> If it is a 8 hour file, the chances are that it's going to take too
>> long to draw envelope too - visible waveform scaling or not.
>
> How do people get themselves into situations like this? An 8-hour file
> with volume variations, where the volume variations are going to be a
> problem? Who's going to listen to it? Can't you just give the listener a
> volume control? Or is it elevator music? (in which case, compression is
> definitely the answer)

Dude.

If it's elevator music, all it needs is the "off" button.

/I'll be here all day

---Jeff

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

> Hi,

> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition)
> ,where the levels go up and down a lot,

Why, can you address that, set and forget is preferable, also makes the mix
a lot simpler.

> and need a good way to even them out afterwards.

Hmm .... Conversation Networks Levelator may be usable, you will have to
tweak the onset gain, but it is designed to do what you ask for, it behaves
just like an AGC.

> I don't want to use any sort of plugin
> compressor or limiter, I would rather manually adjust things.

This is simple. First remove all smoothing of edit points. This is vital.
Next divide problem audio into segments and ramping segments by inserting
silence. Analyze and adjust segments to - most of the time, there will be
exceptions - a suitable average level, -30 dB is a probable target as
Audition analyzes in the edit view. Note: do NOT use group level normalize,
I do not like it for this, but feel free to disagree, imo you need to
analyze manually and copy the statitics to notepad. Select suitable average
level, align segments but keep track of required gain changes between them,
implement suitable fades on the ramp segments - not too long, not too short,
the oontext will tell you, but 3 to 5 seconds is a good first guess. Then
remove silence and notice that the audio fits perfecly back together again
BECAUSE it is easy to see the exact amount of silence you inserted and
remove it.

> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
> same.

Amplitude (process), NOT the plug-in, you need to be able to enter 1/100th
of a dB. Disregard those that claim to be unable to hear so small steps,
this is about making the curve-form fit PERFECTLY back together again.

> What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain.
> If you do this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain
> at the beginning and end of this region which is totally
> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is going to be a
> nightmare. There are no gaps in the recording that makes any of
> this possible.

See above, it is the procecure I always use in case I have goofed with the
initial gain setting and not been able to avoid adjusting gain along the
way. The proces outlined above can be performed without loosing a single
sample, but ONLY if edit smoothing is disabled.

> (My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current
> Vista Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and
> Audacity does. Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).

CE2k is enough for this if you still have it, but 1.5 is preferable on NTFS
drives.

> Gareth

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Michael Putrino]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition)
>>>,where
>>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or
>>>limiter, I
>>>would rather manually adjust things.
>>>
>>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with
>>>ease
>>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
>>>audio.
>>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit so
>>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers of
>>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and
>>>the
>>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result in
>>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>>>
>>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
>>>same.
>>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you
>>>do
>>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>>beginning
>>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
>>>these
>>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>>recording that makes any of this possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
>>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
>>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Gareth.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
>> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
>> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
>> you like.
>>
>> d
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does,
> so how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
> Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real
> time :)
>
>
> Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
>
>
>
> Gareth.
>
>
>

In Audition, if you work in 32-bit mode, you don't have to worry about
clipping. When your done, just normalize and the waveform will be reduced,
instead of increased, to fit the maximum you specify.

Remember, in 32-bit mode you are using floating-point data, so there is no
clipping of the file...just the D-to-A on playback. So, if you
post-normalize, the "clipped" data is restored.

Mike

[Gareth Magennis]

"Michael Putrino" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition)
>>>>,where
>>>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>>>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or
>>>>limiter, I
>>>>would rather manually adjust things.
>>>>
>>>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with
>>>>ease
>>>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>>>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
>>>>audio.
>>>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit
>>>>so
>>>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers
>>>>of
>>>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points, and
>>>>the
>>>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result
>>>>in
>>>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>>>>
>>>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
>>>>same.
>>>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If you
>>>>do
>>>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>>>beginning
>>>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
>>>>these
>>>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>>>recording that makes any of this possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current Vista
>>>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity does.
>>>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Gareth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
>>> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
>>> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
>>> you like.
>>>
>>> d
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does,
>> so how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
>> Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real
>> time :)
>>
>>
>> Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gareth.
>>
>>
>>
>
> In Audition, if you work in 32-bit mode, you don't have to worry about
> clipping. When your done, just normalize and the waveform will be reduced,
> instead of increased, to fit the maximum you specify.
>
> Remember, in 32-bit mode you are using floating-point data, so there is no
> clipping of the file...just the D-to-A on playback. So, if you
> post-normalize, the "clipped" data is restored.
>
> Mike
>


Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks.



Gareth.

[Arny Krueger]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
message

> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using
> Audition) ,where the levels go up and down a lot, and
> need a good way to even them out afterwards. I don't
> want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter, I
> would rather manually adjust things.

Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that weekly for about 6
years.

> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any
> way to do the same. What you can do is to hard select a
> region and adjust the gain. If you do this, there is
> obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
> beginning and end of this region which is totally
> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is
> going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
> recording that makes any of this possible.

I break the recording up into zones where the levels are consistent within
the zone. The zones are bounded by small regions basically background noise
level. I adjust the zones by selecting each one and applying an appropriate
gain correction. After doing this for 6 years I kinda-sorta know that works
for each kind of zone.

[Gareth Magennis]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 23:57:02 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:18:03 -0000, "Gareth Magennis"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using Audition)
>> >>>,where
>> >>>the levels go up and down a lot, and need a good way to even them out
>> >>>afterwards. I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or
>> >>>limiter,
>> >>>I
>> >>>would rather manually adjust things.
>> >>>
>> >>>I used to use Logic, and could achieve exactly what I want to do with
>> >>>ease
>> >>>using the Automation function. This entailed dragging up and down the
>> >>>volume level of the audio track, shown as a line superimposed on the
>> >>>audio.
>> >>>As the level was dragged up and down, the audio waveform followed suit
>> >>>so
>> >>>you could quickly click in a start and end point (and infinite numbers
>> >>>of
>> >>>sub regions) and have a gradual fade between the two (many) points,
>> >>>and
>> >>>the
>> >>>waveform would adjust to suit, and you could see this graphical result
>> >>>in
>> >>>real time, keeping a constant volume level. Perfect.
>> >>>
>> >>>I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any way to do the
>> >>>same.
>> >>>What you can do is to hard select a region and adjust the gain. If
>> >>>you
>> >>>do
>> >>>this, there is obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>> >>>beginning
>> >>>and end of this region which is totally unacceptable. Trying to fade
>> >>>these
>> >>>in afterwards is going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>> >>>recording that makes any of this possible.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>(My version of Logic 5 is too old to be able to use on my current
>> >>>Vista
>> >>>Laptop, it doesn't recognise the files that Audition and Audacity
>> >>>does.
>> >>>Bummer, cos it is a really good piece of software).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Gareth.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You can do it in Audition, but not in the normal edit view. Right
>> >> click the track and choose Insert into Multitrack. Then go to the
>> >> multitrack view, and you can drag the volume envelope line around as
>> >> you like.
>> >>
>> >> d
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Thanks, but it doesn't redraw the audio waveform in the way Logic does,
>> >so
>> >how do I know what I have just done and whether it is clipped or not?
>> >Bearing in mind this is an 8 hour WAV which I can't just check in real
>> >time
>> >:)
>> >
>> >
>> >Sorry, maybe I'm missing something obvious.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Gareth.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> No, it doesn't redraw the waveform because it isn't changing it. What
>> it is doing is allowing you to draw a line (exactly as Logic did) to
>> set the volume - it is like a flying fader as opposed to an edit. The
>> process is non-destructive, and doesn't change the source in any way.
>>
>> You can make it change the source by doing a mixdown, which
>> effectively "plays" the volume changes into a new file, which you can
>> save as a wav, mp3 etc.
>>
>> It doesn't cause clipping, by the way.
>>
>> Here is what it all looks like. This is a musical session, but you can
>> see the volume changes and fades drawn on the individual tracks.
>>
>> http://81.174.169.10/odds/fades.gif
>>
>> d
>
> Logic also does not redraw the waveform. The volume change/relative
> level is indicated by the position of the the level automation line.
>
> --
> ha
> shut up and play your guitar



Oops, sorry everyone, Hank is right - it is Wavelab that redraws the
waveform, not Logic. I no longer have either installed and mixed the two
up.
In Wavelab you draw a fade in or grab the volume line and the waveform
changes so you can see the fade in/new level. This makes it a piece of cake
to manually "normalise" a large audio file with no compressor artifacts
whatsoever. Unfortunately (my old version at least) doesn't accept
wavefiles bigger than 2Gb.




Cheers,




Gareth.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> geoff wrote:
>
>> If it is a 8 hour file, the chances are that it's going to take too long
>> to draw envelope too - visible waveform scaling or not.
>
> How do people get themselves into situations like this? An 8-hour file
> with volume variations, where the volume variations are going to be a
> problem? Who's going to listen to it? Can't you just give the listener a
> volume control? Or is it elevator music? (in which case, compression is
> definitely the answer)


In this instance it is a recording from a Live PA system feed. It starts
quite chilled out and quiet, and ends full on and maxed out. You might
find something similar with an Orchestra with soloists, or as someone else
mentioned, a Theatre show with dialogue and loud musical numbers.






Gareth.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
> message
>
>> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings, (using
>> Audition) ,where the levels go up and down a lot, and
>> need a good way to even them out afterwards. I don't
>> want to use any sort of plugin compressor or limiter, I
>> would rather manually adjust things.
>
> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that weekly for about 6
> years.
>
>> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any
>> way to do the same. What you can do is to hard select a
>> region and adjust the gain. If you do this, there is
>> obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>> beginning and end of this region which is totally
>> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is
>> going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>> recording that makes any of this possible.
>
> I break the recording up into zones where the levels are consistent within
> the zone. The zones are bounded by small regions basically background
> noise level. I adjust the zones by selecting each one and applying an
> appropriate gain correction. After doing this for 6 years I kinda-sorta
> know that works for each kind of zone.
>
>


I've tried this, and do it when I think I can get away with it, but cant
adjust by any more than about 2dB without it being too noticable - I have no
gaps at all. As the event progresses, the faders gradually get turned up
higher and higher, so the overall waveform is like a wedge of cheese, but
with short term volume fluctuations I want to keep intact, thus no
compression.




Gareth.

[hank alrich]

Gareth Magennis > wrote:

> Oops, sorry everyone, Hank is right -

Hey, it happens, nevermind what my wife says about me!

> it is Wavelab that redraws the
> waveform, not Logic. I no longer have either installed and mixed the two
> up.

> In Wavelab you draw a fade in or grab the volume line and the waveform
> changes so you can see the fade in/new level. This makes it a piece of cake
> to manually "normalise" a large audio file with no compressor artifacts
> whatsoever.

That seems like a nifty feature. Given how long it takes my old v. of
Logic Pro (6.4.3) to draw waveforms, I wonder how Wavelab gets it done
so quickly?

I now have Logic Studio 9 installed, but I haven't done anything with it
yet.

> Unfortunately (my old version at least) doesn't accept
> wavefiles bigger than 2Gb.

Sometimes bigger really is better.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:34:01 -0600, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>That seems like a nifty feature. Given how long it takes my old v. of
>Logic Pro (6.4.3) to draw waveforms, I wonder how Wavelab gets it done
>so quickly?

It's not re-creating it from the sample data (which won't have changed
yet anyway.) It's just scaling the existing waveform picture.

[hank alrich]

Laurence Payne > wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:34:01 -0600, (hank alrich)
> wrote:
>
> >That seems like a nifty feature. Given how long it takes my old v. of
> >Logic Pro (6.4.3) to draw waveforms, I wonder how Wavelab gets it done
> >so quickly?
>
> It's not re-creating it from the sample data (which won't have changed
> yet anyway.) It's just scaling the existing waveform picture.

Cool; thank you!

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that weekly for about 6
> years.

But 8 hours long? (unless I have the wrong thread in mind) That's a church
I wouldn't want to attend, ever!

[Mike Rivers]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

> In this instance it is a recording from a Live PA system feed. It
> starts quite chilled out and quiet, and ends full on and maxed out.
> You might find something similar with an Orchestra with soloists, or as
> someone else mentioned, a Theatre show with dialogue and loud musical
> numbers.

This is what we call "dynamic range." Enjoy it while you can.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
>> In this instance it is a recording from a Live PA system feed. It starts
>> quite chilled out and quiet, and ends full on and maxed out. You might
>> find something similar with an Orchestra with soloists, or as someone
>> else mentioned, a Theatre show with dialogue and loud musical numbers.
>
> This is what we call "dynamic range." Enjoy it while you can.


Yes, I am trying to reatain as much as possible of this dynamic range, I
don't like the current trend of Everything Can Be Sorted By A Compressor.

Interestingly though, the live environment is surely not the same as
listening to the recording of that same event. If the first half hour was
a Harp recital and the next the full blown Orchestra, would you have the
first half of the recording on CD significantly more than 10dB lower than
the second half, as it actually was at the time?

I think the brain compensates differently to volume, and has different
requirements, in these different situations. Also in a live envirnonment,
there can be a LOT of ambient noise created by the audience themselves
(everyone is SHOUTING) which is not on the recording, which must affect the
perception and requirement of the volume of the sound level delivered live,
but not on the recording thank you very much. This probably doesn't usually
apply to Classical recitals ;)





Gareth.

[Mike Rivers]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

> Interestingly though, the live environment is surely not the same as
> listening to the recording of that same event. If the first half hour
> was a Harp recital and the next the full blown Orchestra, would you have
> the first half of the recording on CD significantly more than 10dB lower
> than the second half, as it actually was at the time?

Yes, I would. Because the harp IS quieter than the orchestra. When I mix
at a festival, the solo banjo player is substantially quieter than the blues
band with a heavy handed drummer and a bass player that's too loud. When
it goes on the CD, they're a little closer in level, but you get the
sense that
you're listening to a banjo player and a blues band at their appropriate
levels. This is part of the "mastering" process and you treat each song, or
each performance, individually, and then make the pieces fit together.

> Also in a live
> envirnonment, there can be a LOT of ambient noise created by the
> audience themselves (everyone is SHOUTING) which is not on the
> recording, which must affect the perception and requirement of the
> volume of the sound level delivered live, but not on the recording thank
> you very much.

This is true. At a live show where everyone isn't necessarily keeping
quiet in their seats listening to whatever comes along, there seems to be
a fairly consistent signal-to-noise ratio. The audience makes more nose
during the blues band's set than during the solo banjoist's set. And a good
concert recording will capture a certain amount of the audience noise and
response.

I guess it might help this discussion along if we know just want this
recording
is that you have, and what the end product will be. Nobody's really
going to
listen to an 8 hour recording start to finish. If it's different
performances,
you can treat each one to even it out, and then put them together to make
a coherent and listenable package.

But this is a lot of work. Is it an unpaid gig and you're trying to do
the best
job you can as efficiently as you can? If you can afford to spend a
couple of
hours on every recorded hour, and then maybe another 8-12 hours on the
whole project (and get paid for your time) there are lots of tools
availalble
to you, as long as you have the good taste to use them effectively.

[Gareth Magennis]

Its an unpaid job, Mike, I do it because I want to. I like to do the best I
can, within reasonable time constraints of course.

Wavelab can do exactly what I want in half an hour tops, but not with such
large files - the technology is almost decades old. I was hoping to find
its successor. I'm not sure why something apparently so trivial is so
difficult to achieve.


Cheers,


Gareth.

[Arny Krueger]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
message
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings,
>>> (using Audition) ,where the levels go up and down a
>>> lot, and need a good way to even them out afterwards. I don't want to
>>> use any sort of plugin compressor or
>>> limiter, I would rather manually adjust things.
>>
>> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that
>> weekly for about 6 years.
>>
>>> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any
>>> way to do the same. What you can do is to hard select a
>>> region and adjust the gain. If you do this, there is
>>> obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>> beginning and end of this region which is totally
>>> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is
>>> going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>> recording that makes any of this possible.

>> I break the recording up into zones where the levels are
>> consistent within the zone. The zones are bounded by
>> small regions basically background noise level. I
>> adjust the zones by selecting each one and applying an
>> appropriate gain correction. After doing this for 6
>> years I kinda-sorta know that works for each kind of
>> zone.

> I've tried this, and do it when I think I can get away
> with it, but cant adjust by any more than about 2dB
> without it being too noticable - I have no gaps at all.

If you make an envelope in Cool Edit/Audition that starts out with 0 dB gain
and slowly ramps up to the desired amount of attenuation or gain, you can
use it to apply gain changes that are less noticeable.

> As the event progresses, the faders gradually get turned
> up higher and higher, so the overall waveform is like a
> wedge of cheese, but with short term volume fluctuations
> I want to keep intact, thus no compression.

Pretty strange. The usual goal of gain riding is consistent levels.

What can I say - the recordings I make tend to be uniform, with the caveat
that there are inherent differences between mixing live sounds for the
room, and mixing live sounds for a recording that need to be dealt with when
reformatting a "board tape" (actually a digital recording these days) for
distribution as a recording.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that
>> weekly for about 6 years.

> But 8 hours long? (unless I have the wrong thread in
> mind) That's a church I wouldn't want to attend, ever!

In certain denominations and churches, the services run more-or-less
continuously for the better part of the designated day, and people come and
go during the service time as desired or needed.

I imagine that some really devout people (or people badly needing lives) do
the whole enchilada.

It could also be a music festival, although I record the ones I do on a
group-by-group basis. Of course there's a safety recording that runs for a
number of groups (like after lunch break to start of dinner break) but I
rarely need to actually use it.

Still, the sound at festivals are not continuous.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
> message
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings,
>>>> (using Audition) ,where the levels go up and down a
>>>> lot, and need a good way to even them out afterwards. I don't want to
>>>> use any sort of plugin compressor or
>>>> limiter, I would rather manually adjust things.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that
>>> weekly for about 6 years.
>>>
>>>> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find any
>>>> way to do the same. What you can do is to hard select a
>>>> region and adjust the gain. If you do this, there is
>>>> obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>>> beginning and end of this region which is totally
>>>> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is
>>>> going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>>> recording that makes any of this possible.
>
>>> I break the recording up into zones where the levels are
>>> consistent within the zone. The zones are bounded by
>>> small regions basically background noise level. I
>>> adjust the zones by selecting each one and applying an
>>> appropriate gain correction. After doing this for 6
>>> years I kinda-sorta know that works for each kind of
>>> zone.
>
>> I've tried this, and do it when I think I can get away
>> with it, but cant adjust by any more than about 2dB
>> without it being too noticable - I have no gaps at all.
>
> If you make an envelope in Cool Edit/Audition that starts out with 0 dB
> gain and slowly ramps up to the desired amount of attenuation or gain, you
> can use it to apply gain changes that are less noticeable.
>
>> As the event progresses, the faders gradually get turned
>> up higher and higher, so the overall waveform is like a
>> wedge of cheese, but with short term volume fluctuations
>> I want to keep intact, thus no compression.
>
> Pretty strange. The usual goal of gain riding is consistent levels.
>

Not really. When you walk into a venue at opening time you do not expect
the volume to be the same as when things are really kicking off with a full
audience. Nobody would even enter the room.


Gareth.









> What can I say - the recordings I make tend to be uniform, with the caveat
> that there are inherent differences between mixing live sounds for the
> room, and mixing live sounds for a recording that need to be dealt with
> when reformatting a "board tape" (actually a digital recording these days)
> for distribution as a recording.
>
>
>
>

[geoff]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gareth Magennis wrote:
>>
>>> In this instance it is a recording from a Live PA system feed. It
>>> starts quite chilled out and quiet, and ends full on and maxed out.
>>> You might find something similar with an Orchestra with soloists, or as
>>> someone else mentioned, a Theatre show with dialogue and loud musical
>>> numbers.
>>
>> This is what we call "dynamic range." Enjoy it while you can.
>
>
> Yes, I am trying to reatain as much as possible of this dynamic range, I
> don't like the current trend of Everything Can Be Sorted By A Compressor.


Well, unless you can train everybody to speak at a similar level, at a
similar distance to the microphone, or 'own' the job and do the volume
envelope thing for the full length, then lacking divine intervention
compression/limiting is about all you can do.

Maybe pray hard for 8 hours and it will just 'happen', else just do the
work.

geoff

[Gareth Magennis]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in message
...
> Its an unpaid job, Mike, I do it because I want to. I like to do the best
> I can, within reasonable time constraints of course.
>
> Wavelab can do exactly what I want in half an hour tops, but not with such
> large files - the technology is almost decades old. I was hoping to find
> its successor. I'm not sure why something apparently so trivial is so
> difficult to achieve.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Gareth.



Actually Wavelab 6 claims it will now mport files bigger than 2GB, I only
have version 4.
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audioediting_product/audioediting_wavelab6/audioediting_wavelab6_newfeature.html

I believe its the Audio Montage section that does the nifty redrawing.

Guess thats my answer then.




Gareth.

[Arny Krueger]

"Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
message
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote in
>> message
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Gareth Magennis" > wrote
>>>> in message
>>>>
>>>>> I am dealing with long continuous live recordings,
>>>>> (using Audition) ,where the levels go up and down a
>>>>> lot, and need a good way to even them out afterwards.
>>>>> I don't want to use any sort of plugin compressor or
>>>>> limiter, I would rather manually adjust things.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a church service. Been there, done that
>>>> weekly for about 6 years.
>>>>
>>>>> I have Audacity and Audition but can't seem to find
>>>>> any way to do the same. What you can do is to hard select
>>>>> a region and adjust the gain. If you do this, there is
>>>>> obviously going to be a step change in gain at the
>>>>> beginning and end of this region which is totally
>>>>> unacceptable. Trying to fade these in afterwards is
>>>>> going to be a nightmare. There are no gaps in the
>>>>> recording that makes any of this possible.
>>
>>>> I break the recording up into zones where the levels
>>>> are consistent within the zone. The zones are bounded
>>>> by small regions basically background noise level. I
>>>> adjust the zones by selecting each one and applying an
>>>> appropriate gain correction. After doing this for 6
>>>> years I kinda-sorta know that works for each kind of
>>>> zone.
>>
>>> I've tried this, and do it when I think I can get away
>>> with it, but cant adjust by any more than about 2dB
>>> without it being too noticable - I have no gaps at all.
>>
>> If you make an envelope in Cool Edit/Audition that
>> starts out with 0 dB gain and slowly ramps up to the
>> desired amount of attenuation or gain, you can use it to
>> apply gain changes that are less noticeable.
>>> As the event progresses, the faders gradually get turned
>>> up higher and higher, so the overall waveform is like a
>>> wedge of cheese, but with short term volume fluctuations
>>> I want to keep intact, thus no compression.
>>
>> Pretty strange. The usual goal of gain riding is
>> consistent levels.
>
> Not really. When you walk into a venue at opening time
> you do not expect the volume to be the same as when
> things are really kicking off with a full audience. Nobody would even
> enter the room.

By all means. But in the gigs I work, there is a pretty clear boundary line
between the prelude and the main show. I guess it is not written in stone
that it *has* to be that way.

[Mike Rivers]

Gareth Magennis wrote:
> Its an unpaid job, Mike, I do it because I want to. I like to do the
> best I can, within reasonable time constraints of course.

It's the unpaid work that always has the greatest time requirements. The
reason is simple - the "customer" doesn't want to pay what it would cost
to do the job.

[Mike Rivers]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

> Not really. When you walk into a venue at opening time you do not
> expect the volume to be the same as when things are really kicking off
> with a full audience. Nobody would even enter the room.

Please, what IS this project? Who will be listening to the recording,
and why?
It sure doesn't sound like something that anyone would want to listen to
for
8 hours straight. Why can't you break it up into logical pieces that you can
manage?

Is this simply a product of nobody paying attention to the recording? And if
so, why aren't the loud parts horribly distorted? That's usually what
happens
with a set-and-forget recording.

[Geoff]

Gareth Magennis wrote:
> Its an unpaid job, Mike, I do it because I want to. I like to do the
> best I can, within reasonable time constraints of course.
>
> Wavelab can do exactly what I want in half an hour tops, but not with
> such large files - the technology is almost decades old. I was
> hoping to find its successor. I'm not sure why something apparently
> so trivial is so difficult to achieve.

It's not trivial.

But it is relatively easy to achieve 'roughly', with say a hand drawn volume
envelope on the displayed waveform. Dunno if your software can do that.

But if you want quality results, you sill have to put the effort in
addressing each section individually..

geoff