point to point wireless pro audio

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Hi!

Anyone can recommend a pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to
PA system imput that is up to about 10 meters distance (no walls)?
I need one for a live events but the PA system is very high quality so I
would like the wireless system to be close as possible to studio quality
sound.
Thanks.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[Richard Crowley]

"Zvonimir Ervacic" wrote ...
> Anyone can recommend a pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to
> PA system imput that is up to about 10 meters distance (no walls)?
> I need one for a live events but the PA system is very high quality so I
> would like the wireless system to be close as possible to studio quality
> sound.

Zaxcom or Lectrosonics digital.
Bring your checkbook.

[LAB]

> pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to PA system input that
is up to about 10 meter
>> Zaxcom or Lectrosonics digital. Bring your checkbook.

10 meters...
$200~250/m could be enough to get something? :-)

I've tested my new AKG SO 40 / WMS 40: it's very good. Tx can work 10
hours with only a AAA battery and it can handle 300mV at min sensitivity. If
you can work at -10dBV=-8dBu (Tx in and Rx out) it could be a good & cheap
solution bringing with you only two notes...

--
Gianluca

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:32:24 +0100, LAB kaze...
> 10 meters...
> $200~250/m could be enough to get something? :-)

Yes, dig the floor and put a wires. :-)

> I've tested my new AKG SO 40 / WMS 40: it's very good. Tx can work 10
> hours with only a AAA battery and it can handle 300mV at min sensitivity. If
> you can work at -10dBV=-8dBu (Tx in and Rx out) it could be a good & cheap
> solution bringing with you only two notes...

The PA system inputs are designed not to be easily overloaded by +20dBu
usual mixer outputs.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[LAB]

> If you can work at -10dBV=-8dBu (Tx in and Rx out)

>> The PA system inputs are designed not to be easily overloaded by
+20dBu usual mixer outputs.

Ok, but I was saying that the Tx max handling level could be too low for
a mixer out (you should take signal from a mixer's -10dBV tape out or use a
14...20dB XLR attenuator on the main out) and the Rx level could be too low
for a PA amp.

--
Gianluca

[Richard Crowley]

"LAB" wrote...
> > pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to PA system input that
> is up to about 10 meter
> >> Zaxcom or Lectrosonics digital. Bring your checkbook.
>
> 10 meters...
> $200~250/m could be enough to get something? :-)

200-250 dollars PER METER?

> I've tested my new AKG SO 40 / WMS 40: it's very good. Tx can work 10
> hours with only a AAA battery and it can handle 300mV at min sensitivity.
> If you can work at -10dBV=-8dBu (Tx in and Rx out) it could be a good &
> cheap solution bringing with you only two notes...

There aren't really any "good & cheap" solutions for this.
If it is only 10m (30ft) and it is part of a PA system with
everything else wired, why bother? Running wireless over
such a short distance is way more trouble than it is worth.

[Scott Dorsey]

Zvonimir Ervacic > wrote:
>
>Anyone can recommend a pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to
>PA system imput that is up to about 10 meters distance (no walls)?
>I need one for a live events but the PA system is very high quality so I
>would like the wireless system to be close as possible to studio quality
>sound.

Lectrosonics would be my first suggestion; we have used the Lectro sets
for delayed speaker stacks at outdoor concerts and they were okay.

Zaxcom also makes some stuff.

Shure makes some devices intended for IFB which can be pressed into
service to do the job. Sound quality isn't up to the Lectros but they
are okay for a lot of stuff.

Vega actually made some devices in the eighties that were intended for
this job, and SOME of them use the VHF-LO television band which is
totally unused right now. I wouldn't have recommended them so much,
but the ease of VHF-LO frequency coordination makes them worth looking
into again.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Zvonimir Ervacic > wrote:
>Dana Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:32:24 +0100, LAB kaze...
>> 10 meters...
>> $200~250/m could be enough to get something? :-)
>
>Yes, dig the floor and put a wires. :-)

That's really the solution.

I work a festival where we run 70V lines for about two miles of total cable
run, in order to provide cuing speakers and to allow the people at the front
gate to hear that something is going on down on the main stage. I have
occasionally looked at an RF solution for this because paying out two miles
of cable from a backpack through nettles and thorns is not pleasant. Still,
I haven't found anything that has both the sound quality and the range
required.

If anyone has an old vacuum tube Marti transmitter kicking around, though,
especially if it's on the 160 MHz broadcast auxiliary band, I would be
very interested in it....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[LAB]

>> 200-250 dollars PER METER?

Yep! 200~250 x 10 = 2000~2500 dollars. It's very huge compared to the
10m he has to cover between two steady devices.

--
Gianluca

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:45:52 +0100, LAB kaze...
> Ok, but I was saying that the Tx max handling level could be too low for
> a mixer out (you should take signal from a mixer's -10dBV tape out or use a
> 14...20dB XLR attenuator on the main out) and the Rx level could be too low
> for a PA amp.

I guess I could get out of mixer with low enough signal but after the Rx
and before the system input I should amplify it so the TxRx combo have
to be very low noise.
Might be a good idea.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:18:16 -0700, Richard Crowley kaze...
> 200-250 dollars PER METER?

I guess he is looking something like Lectrosonics D4 or similar as I do.

> There aren't really any "good & cheap" solutions for this.
> If it is only 10m (30ft) and it is part of a PA system with
> everything else wired, why bother? Running wireless over
> such a short distance is way more trouble than it is worth.

Wiring localy around the band is OK but 10m wires across the room is
unacceptable since quite a luxury place. There is no way I can run wires
without crossing a guests path. :-(

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Thank you all for replay and help.
I have some picture what is available on the market and the prices.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir


Dana Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:51:09 +0100, Zvonimir Ervacic kaze...
> Hi!
>
> Anyone can recommend a pro audio quality wireless system from mixer to
> PA system imput that is up to about 10 meters distance (no walls)?
> I need one for a live events but the PA system is very high quality so I
> would like the wireless system to be close as possible to studio quality
> sound.
> Thanks.
>
> Pozdrav,
> Zvonimir
>
>

[Richard Crowley]

"Zvonimir Ervacic" wrote ...
> Wiring localy around the band is OK but 10m wires across the room is
> unacceptable since quite a luxury place. There is no way I can run wires
> without crossing a guests path. :-(

If it is "quite a luxury place", then Zaxcom or Lectro would seem
like the solution, then. Bring THEIR checkbook.

Or remodel and wire the place properly. That's what I am doing
in one of my monthly venues. Installing permanent mic and spkr
cables to make setup and strike ever so much easier (and faster
and no hassle with the guests, etc.)

[Mark]

On Nov 1, 10:12*am, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:
> "Zvonimir Ervacic" *wrote ...
>
> > Wiring localy around the band is OK but 10m wires across the room is
> > unacceptable since quite a luxury place. There is no way I can run wires
> > without crossing a guests path. :-(
>
> If it is "quite a luxury place", then Zaxcom or Lectro would seem
> like the solution, then. *Bring THEIR checkbook.
>
> Or remodel and wire the place properly. That's what I am doing
> in one of my monthly venues. Installing permanent mic and spkr
> cables to make setup and strike ever so much easier (and faster
> and no hassle with the guests, etc.)

What are the latency specs for these?

Mark

[Richard Crowley]

"Mark" wrote ...
> What are the latency specs for these?

The manufacturers' websites likely publish the specs.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark > wrote:
>
>What are the latency specs for these?

Most of the Lectro systems are straight FM, with no latency issues. They
do make a digital line, though, with some noticeable latency. Less than
the 30 mS that you're already introducing with a 10 meter run, though.

The Zaxcom systems seem to have more latency than the Lectros.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana Sun, 1 Nov 2009 07:12:05 -0800, Richard Crowley kaze...
> If it is "quite a luxury place", then Zaxcom or Lectro would seem
> like the solution, then. Bring THEIR checkbook.

:-)

> Or remodel and wire the place properly. That's what I am doing
> in one of my monthly venues. Installing permanent mic and spkr
> cables to make setup and strike ever so much easier (and faster
> and no hassle with the guests, etc.)

The PA system is well designed. However it is easier to move the
furniture than in-wall audio plug-ins.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[Steve Maki[_2_]]

On 31 Oct 2009 13:51:35 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Vega actually made some devices in the eighties that were intended for
>this job, and SOME of them use the VHF-LO television band which is
>totally unused right now. I wouldn't have recommended them so much,
>but the ease of VHF-LO frequency coordination makes them worth looking
>into again.

VHF-LO is still used in a few US markets, so be careful. Last time I looked there were six
stations which chose to remain on (or move to) channel 2, and approx. 40 stations in total
for 2 through 6.

--
Steve Maki

[Richard Crowley]

"Steve Maki" wrote ...
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>Vega actually made some devices in the eighties that were intended for
>>this job, and SOME of them use the VHF-LO television band which is
>>totally unused right now. I wouldn't have recommended them so much,
>>but the ease of VHF-LO frequency coordination makes them worth looking
>>into again.
>
> VHF-LO is still used in a few US markets, so be careful. Last time I
> looked there were six
> stations which chose to remain on (or move to) channel 2, and approx. 40
> stations in total
> for 2 through 6.

I don't think so. The stations that were on 2-6 still retain their
nominal channel numbers, but they have moved to UHF over
the air. We have two of them here in PDX. However some
stations that were on VHF-HI have returned to their original
channels (as have most of the stations here in PDX).

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana 1 Nov 2009 11:09:53 -0500, Scott Dorsey kaze...
> Most of the Lectro systems are straight FM, with no latency issues. They
> do make a digital line, though, with some noticeable latency. Less than
> the 30 mS that you're already introducing with a 10 meter run, though.

Errrr... sorry for my bad Englis... Are you saying that 10m wire have
30ms signal delay?

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Zvonimir Ervacic > wrote:
>Dana 1 Nov 2009 11:09:53 -0500, Scott Dorsey kaze...
>> Most of the Lectro systems are straight FM, with no latency issues. They
>> do make a digital line, though, with some noticeable latency. Less than
>> the 30 mS that you're already introducing with a 10 meter run, though.
>
>Errrr... sorry for my bad Englis... Are you saying that 10m wire have
>30ms signal delay?

No, 10m of air has about 30 ms signal delay, for the acoustical sound in
air.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Steve Maki[_2_]]

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:28:28 -0800, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:

>"Steve Maki" wrote ...
>> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>Vega actually made some devices in the eighties that were intended for
>>>this job, and SOME of them use the VHF-LO television band which is
>>>totally unused right now. I wouldn't have recommended them so much,
>>>but the ease of VHF-LO frequency coordination makes them worth looking
>>>into again.

>> VHF-LO is still used in a few US markets, so be careful. Last time I
>> looked there were six
>> stations which chose to remain on (or move to) channel 2, and approx. 40
>> stations in total
>> for 2 through 6.

>I don't think so. The stations that were on 2-6 still retain their
>nominal channel numbers, but they have moved to UHF over
>the air. We have two of them here in PDX. However some
>stations that were on VHF-HI have returned to their original
>channels (as have most of the stations here in PDX).

Not true. I had this discussion on a ham radio group who were
claiming that all their 6 meter/channel 2 issues were gone
forever, and I pointed that in a few markets, ch 2 was indeed
chosen by one of the locals for their final digital frequency.

I just checked MI and found WGVK 52.1 on 5, and WBKP 5.1 on 5
(one of those stations who had a temp UHF channel and went back
to their original analog channel after transition.

--
Steve Maki

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve Maki > wrote:
>Not true. I had this discussion on a ham radio group who were
>claiming that all their 6 meter/channel 2 issues were gone
>forever, and I pointed that in a few markets, ch 2 was indeed
>chosen by one of the locals for their final digital frequency.

Wow. That's pretty boneheaded. Channel 2 is the best possible place to
be in the analogue world, and the worst possible place to be in the digital
world.

>I just checked MI and found WGVK 52.1 on 5, and WBKP 5.1 on 5
>(one of those stations who had a temp UHF channel and went back
>to their original analog channel after transition.

5 isn't such a great place to be, but it beats 2 hands down. The solar
maximum is coming in just a couple years and it promises to be a good one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Steve Maki[_2_]]

On 2 Nov 2009 13:45:37 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Steve Maki > wrote:
>>Not true. I had this discussion on a ham radio group who were
>>claiming that all their 6 meter/channel 2 issues were gone
>>forever, and I pointed that in a few markets, ch 2 was indeed
>>chosen by one of the locals for their final digital frequency.

>Wow. That's pretty boneheaded. Channel 2 is the best possible place to
>be in the analogue world, and the worst possible place to be in the digital
>world.
>
>>I just checked MI and found WGVK 52.1 on 5, and WBKP 5.1 on 5
>>(one of those stations who had a temp UHF channel and went back
>>to their original analog channel after transition.
>
>5 isn't such a great place to be, but it beats 2 hands down. The solar
>maximum is coming in just a couple years and it promises to be a good one.
>--scott

Not only skip, but power line noise (which is 10 times worse on
low band than high band) is a deal killer for digital.

--
Steve Maki

[Richard Crowley]

"Steve Maki" wrote ...
> "Richard Crowley" wrote:
>>I don't think so. The stations that were on 2-6 still retain their
>>nominal channel numbers, but they have moved to UHF over
>>the air. We have two of them here in PDX. However some
>>stations that were on VHF-HI have returned to their original
>>channels (as have most of the stations here in PDX).
>
> Not true. I had this discussion on a ham radio group who were
> claiming that all their 6 meter/channel 2 issues were gone
> forever, and I pointed that in a few markets, ch 2 was indeed
> chosen by one of the locals for their final digital frequency.
>
> I just checked MI and found WGVK 52.1 on 5, and WBKP 5.1 on 5
> (one of those stations who had a temp UHF channel and went back
> to their original analog channel after transition.

According to the online FCC license records, indeed there are >800
low-power ( <1Kw) transmitters on Ch 2-6, mostly repeaters out in
rural areas. And most of those appear to be "flea-power" (<10W)
and with HAAT (height above average terrain) of "0m". Repeaters
were exempt from the digital switch-over earlier this year.

But there are ~80 higher power stations still left in some areas. But
none of them are very big. The highest-power station is only 27KW,
Ch 2 in LasVegas. For some reason they call themselves "Ch. 3."

[Geoff]

EMU have something :

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=902&subcategory=903&product=18609

geoff

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Thanks.
I downloaded the manual but can't find maximum signal I/O limits. RCA
conectors indicate it is probably good for commercial, not pro audio
levels.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir


Dana Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:51:36 +1300, geoff kaze...
>
>
> EMU have something :
>
> http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=902&subcategory=903&product=18609
>
> geoff
>
>
> begin 666 News.url
> M6TEN=&5R;F5T4VAO<G1C=71=#0I54DP]:'1T<#HO+W=W=RYE;74N8V]M+VYE
> M=W,O#0I)1$QI<W0]#0I;>S P,#(Q-$$P+3 P,# M,# P,"U#,# P+3 P,# P
> 7,# P,# T-GU=#0I0<F]P,STQ.2PR#0H`
> `
> end
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

Zvonimir Ervacic > wrote:
>I downloaded the manual but can't find maximum signal I/O limits. RCA
>conectors indicate it is probably good for commercial, not pro audio
>levels.

Make an adjustable pad. Turn it down until it stops clipping. Then
turn it down a little more. Mark with a Sharpie.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."