Question about rec.audio.tech

[Beta_Nullo]

Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet as
to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.

Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

I am curious about the control messages that were first circulated about
it, and when it was removed. When (year and month, roughly) was
rec.audio.tech first discussed being created or newgrouped? Are there
any references to it in your archives for news.announce.newgroups?

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:52:37 -0700, Beta_Nullo
> wrote:

>
>Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet as
>to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>
>Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

Guess so.

>I am curious about the control messages that were first circulated about
>it, and when it was removed. When (year and month, roughly) was
>rec.audio.tech first discussed being created or newgrouped? Are there
>any references to it in your archives for news.announce.newgroups?

Dunno about any of that.

Kal

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:52:37 -0700, Beta_Nullo > wrote in >:

>Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet as
>to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.

All news adminstrators makes up their own lists for their
own servers.

rec.audio.tech is still on the Big-8 Checkgroups list:

<http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:big-8_list>

Looks as though it was created in 1994. Then someone seems
to have sent an unsigned request to have it removed:

<ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/rec/rec.audio.tech.gz>


From Mon May 16 14:22:05 1994
Control: newgroup rec.audio.tech
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tech
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 17:27:07 GMT
Message-ID: >

rec.audio.tech is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 241:30 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 9 May 1994.

>Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

Yes (Supernews and Astraweb).

>I am curious about the control messages that were first circulated about
>it, and when it was removed. When (year and month, roughly) was
>rec.audio.tech first discussed being created or newgrouped? Are there
>any references to it in your archives for news.announce.newgroups?

Some:

<http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=rec.audio.tech&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&scoring=&lr=&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2009&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2009&as_ugroup=news.announce.newgroups&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&safe=off>

and announcement that it passed its vote:

<http://groups.google.com/group/news.announce.newgroups/browse_frm/thread/d6829f91641d0fc4/f60dc94f9cfa9945?hl=en&q=group:news.announce.newgroups#f60dc94f9cfa9945>

Marty
--
Co-chair of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB) <http://www.big-8.org>
Unless otherwise indicated, I speak for myself, not for the Board.

[Richard Crowley]

Beta_Nullo wrote:
> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
> as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.

I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
that whatsoever. What makes you think that?

> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t

> I am curious about the control messages that were first circulated
> about it,

r.a.t was created many many many years ago.

> and when it was removed.

It is NOT removed. Clearly if you posted this message to r.a.t
then it is still authorized and supported around the planet.

If you have discovered it "removed" then that was action by your
local server administrator. r.a.t has most certainly NOT been
cancelled in the general hierarchy.

> When (year and month, roughly) was
> rec.audio.tech first discussed being created or newgrouped? Are
> there any references to it in your archives for
> news.announce.newgroups?

You could do your own research, but what's the point. Your
beginning premise (that r.a.t has been cancelled) is false.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:52:37 -0700, Beta_Nullo > wrote in >:

>Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet as
>to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.

>Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

Yes: Supernews and Astraweb.

And Google: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/about?hl=en

>I am curious about the control messages that were first circulated about
>it, and when it was removed.

See ISC Archives:

<http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:isc_archives>

Which gives you this:

ftp://ftp.isc.org/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/rec/rec.audio.tech

From Mon May 16 14:22:05 1994
Control: newgroup rec.audio.tech
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tech
Subject: newgroup rec.audio.tech
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 17:27:07 GMT
Message-ID: >

rec.audio.tech is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 241:30 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 9 May 1994. ...

>When (year and month, roughly) was
>rec.audio.tech first discussed being created or newgrouped? Are there
>any references to it in your archives for news.announce.newgroups?

May 10, 1994: Announcement that the group passed its vote.

<http://groups.google.com/group/news.announce.newgroups/browse_frm/thread/d6829f91641d0fc4/f60dc94f9cfa9945?hl=en&q=group:news.announce.newgroups#f60dc94f9cfa9945>

Marty
--
Co-chair of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB) <http://www.big-8.org>
Unless otherwise indicated, I speak for myself, not for the Board.

[Richard Crowley]

Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:
> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about
>> Usenet as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>
>> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?
>
> Yes: Supernews and Astraweb.
> And Google: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/about?hl=en

And individual.net
And eternal.september.org (ne. motzarella.org)

[Beta_Nullo]

Richard Crowley wrote:
> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
>> as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>
> I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
> that whatsoever. What makes you think that?
>
>> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?
>
> I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t

Thanks, that is reassuring.

I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how hard
I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day Saturday and
Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader for the Mac
thinks it DOES exist.

--

To reply, change Nullo to the word "Zero" and spell out the "1" as "one"

[David Nebenzahl]

On 10/12/2009 2:31 PM Beta_Nullo spake thus:

> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
>>> as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>>
>> I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
>> that whatsoever. What makes you think that?
>>
>>> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?
>>
>> I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t
>
> Thanks, that is reassuring.
>
> I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
> newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how hard
> I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day Saturday and
> Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader for the Mac
> thinks it DOES exist.

What do you expect with a name like "Sea Monkey"?

Obviously, if at least one news client can see it, your news server is
serving it (I'm sure you figured that out).


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Kathy Morgan]

[Crossposted to news.software.readers w/f'ups sent there]

Beta_Nullo > wrote:

> I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
> newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how hard
> I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day Saturday and
> Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader for the Mac
> thinks it DOES exist.

I've never used Sea Monkey so I don't know the exact mechanics, but you
need to get rid of its current file of newsgroups and download a new
list of all groups. Or maybe you can just manually subscribe to
rec.audio.tech without having it displayed on the list of all groups.

--
Kathy

[Beta_Nullo]

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 10/12/2009 2:31 PM Beta_Nullo spake thus:
>
>> Richard Crowley wrote:
> >
>>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
> >>
>>>> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
>>>> as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>>>
>>> I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
>>> that whatsoever. What makes you think that?
>>>
>>>> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?
>>>
>>> I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t
>>
>> Thanks, that is reassuring.
>>
>> I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
>> newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how
>> hard I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day
>> Saturday and Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader
>> for the Mac thinks it DOES exist.
>
> What do you expect with a name like "Sea Monkey"?

But I found the name irresistible, so I went and leeched it off a
website associated with Mozilla. It's true, they sort of warned me the
thing was still being tested. I basically visualized a barrel of
monkeys, and nothing is better than a barrel of monkeys. Or sea
monkeys, anyway. And I remembered all those comics from the 1960s where
- if you saved up your money - you could buy a bunch of sea monkeys.
Um, tiny little shrimp critters, I understand.

> Obviously, if at least one news client can see it, your news server is
> serving it (I'm sure you figured that out).

I usually refrain from jumping to conclusions, but you do seem to have
made your point, and it's a compelling point at that. Now, if only
they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...

[David Nebenzahl]

On 10/12/2009 7:26 PM Beta_Nullo spake thus:

> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> What do you expect with a name like "Sea Monkey"?
>
> But I found the name irresistible, so I went and leeched it off a
> website associated with Mozilla. It's true, they sort of warned me the
> thing was still being tested. I basically visualized a barrel of
> monkeys, and nothing is better than a barrel of monkeys. Or sea
> monkeys, anyway.

Well, keep in mind that the saying is "there's nothing more *fun* than a
barrel of monkeys". Not "nothing more reliable ...".


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Steve Bonine]

Beta_Nullo wrote:

> But I found the name irresistible, so I went and leeched it off a
> website associated with Mozilla.

The whole reason it's there is for you to "leech".

> It's true, they sort of warned me the
> thing was still being tested.

No more than any other software is still being tested. You could say
"being tested" or you could phrase it "being improved".

> Now, if only
> they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...

Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a text
editor and put in whatever order you wish.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Beta_Nullo > wrote:
>Richard Crowley wrote:
>>Beta_Nullo wrote:

>>>Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
>>>as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.

>>I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
>>that whatsoever. What makes you think that?

>>>Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?

>>I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t

>Thanks, that is reassuring.

>I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
>newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how hard
>I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day Saturday and
>Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader for the Mac
>thinks it DOES exist.

Newsreaders like to grab an active file from the server, which is the
list of all newsgroups created locally plus some other information. Read
Sea Monkey's instructions (or search for help on the Web site) to learn
how to delete the active file on your host, close your instance of the
newsreader, then begin a new instance of the newsreader. That should
force it to grab a fresh active file.

Then try to subscribe to the group.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Beta_Nullo > wrote:
>David Nebenzahl wrote:

>>What do you expect with a name like "Sea Monkey"?

>But I found the name irresistible, so I went and leeched it off a
>website associated with Mozilla. . . .

http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

It should be noted that Mozilla Foundation had dropped development of the
communications suite and that it was taken over by independent volunteers,
but it does use the same base code.

I know there were people who liked Netscape Communicator, but I found
the idea of a communications suite to be abhorrent. It never met my
needs for a Mail or News client, and it was bloated.

I prefer to use specific clients for their specialized purposes.

[Steve Bonine]

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> I know there were people who liked Netscape Communicator, but I found
> the idea of a communications suite to be abhorrent. It never met my
> needs for a Mail or News client, and it was bloated.
>
> I prefer to use specific clients for their specialized purposes.

Different strokes for different folks.

I appreciate the strategy of finding the best product to serve a
specific application, but I also appreciate the convenience of having a
single product that performs multiple functions. It's a trade off, just
as is everything else in life. It's an attractive trade off for the
casual Usenet user.

[Beta_Nullo]

Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Beta_Nullo > wrote:
>> Richard Crowley wrote:
>>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>
>>>> Apparently there are lots of different lists circulating about Usenet
>>>> as to which newsgroup is valid, and which one isn't.
>
>>> I've been on Usenet for ~12 years and I see no evidence of
>>> that whatsoever. What makes you think that?
>
>>>> Does your newsserver recognize rec.audio.tech or not?
>
>>> I don't know of any that do NOT carry r.a.t
>
>> Thanks, that is reassuring.
>
>> I guess I'll have to assume it's some kind of a bug in the Sea Monkey
>> newsreader for it mysteriously omits "rec.audio.tech" no matter how hard
>> I look for it. (At least as of 5 minutes ago, and all day Saturday and
>> Sunday.) For what it's worth, the Pineapple newsreader for the Mac
>> thinks it DOES exist.
>
> Newsreaders like to grab an active file from the server, which is the
> list of all newsgroups created locally plus some other information. Read
> Sea Monkey's instructions (or search for help on the Web site) to learn
> how to delete the active file on your host, close your instance of the
> newsreader, then begin a new instance of the newsreader. That should
> force it to grab a fresh active file.
>
> Then try to subscribe to the group.


Thanks, that was very helpful.

[Beta_Nullo]

Steve Bonine wrote:
> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>
>> But I found the name irresistible, so I went and leeched it off a
>> website associated with Mozilla.
>
> The whole reason it's there is for you to "leech".
>
>> It's true, they sort of warned me the thing was still being tested.
>
> No more than any other software is still being tested. You could say
> "being tested" or you could phrase it "being improved".
>
>> Now, if only they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...
>
> Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a text
> editor and put in whatever order you wish.

Okay, I'll try to scope around and see what I can find. I was worried
that alphabetizing it myself, manually, what result in the wrong
newsgroups having the wrong messages associated with it.

[Beta_Nullo]

Steve Bonine wrote:
> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>> Now, if only they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...
>
> Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a text
> editor and put in whatever order you wish.

Yes, that's my theory, too.

Now, if only I could figure out *which* file has the list of newgroups...

By any chance do you know which file that may be? Do you know the name
of the file?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:19:50 -0700, Beta_Nullo > wrote in >:

>Steve Bonine wrote:
>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>>> Now, if only they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...

>> Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a text
>> editor and put in whatever order you wish.

>Yes, that's my theory, too.

>Now, if only I could figure out *which* file has the list of newgroups...

>By any chance do you know which file that may be? Do you know the name
>of the file?

You should be able to find the .rc file in your profile folder:

<http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_SeaMonkey#Files>

*.rc - in the News folder
Contains subscribed newsgroups for the current server.

You'll have to read the whole page to figure out how to
find your profile. Depends on your operating system.

Marty
--
Co-chair of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB) <http://www.big-8.org>
Unless otherwise indicated, I speak for myself, not for the Board.

[Steve Bonine]

Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:
> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>> Steve Bonine wrote:
>>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>>>> Now, if only they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...
>
>>> Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a text
>>> editor and put in whatever order you wish.
>
>> Yes, that's my theory, too.
>
>> Now, if only I could figure out *which* file has the list of newgroups...
>
>> By any chance do you know which file that may be? Do you know the name
>> of the file?
>
> You should be able to find the .rc file in your profile folder:
>
> <http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_SeaMonkey#Files>
>
> *.rc - in the News folder
> Contains subscribed newsgroups for the current server.
>
> You'll have to read the whole page to figure out how to
> find your profile. Depends on your operating system.

Actually, the name of the file is newsrc-[name of server], at least on
my Mac system. For example, the file listing newsgroups that I get from
individual.net is named newsrc-news.individual.net. And it's in the
News subdirectory of your profile folder.

Note from the reference that Marty cited above that in the Microsoft
world, the files are hidden, so you'll have to plea with the file
explorer to show them to you.

[Richard Crowley]

Steve Bonine wrote:
> Note from the reference that Marty cited above that in the Microsoft
> world, the files are hidden, so you'll have to plea with the file
> explorer to show them to you.

Simple click of the mouse. Dunno about any "pleading"?
MY computer knows who is boss around here. (Except
when it starts scanning for viruses and then its time to go
to lunch. :-)

OTOH, dunno why we need to peek inside the file either.
If the newsreader has some problem finding r.a.t on the
OP's NNTP service, no amount of diddling the file will
bring it back.

[Steve Bonine]

Richard Crowley wrote:

> OTOH, dunno why we need to peek inside the file either.
> If the newsreader has some problem finding r.a.t on the
> OP's NNTP service, no amount of diddling the file will
> bring it back.

The OP was interested in changing the order that the groups are listed.

[PJScully1]

Beta_Nullo wrote:
> Steve Bonine wrote:
>> Beta_Nullo wrote:
>>> Now, if only they would let me alphabetize my newsgroup list...
>>
>> Your newsgroup list is contained in a file that you can edit with a
>> text editor and put in whatever order you wish.
>
> Yes, that's my theory, too.
>
> Now, if only I could figure out *which* file has the list of newgroups...
>
> By any chance do you know which file that may be? Do you know the name
> of the file?
try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
will find all the news groups in creation c.5000 I think:))
regards
Dr Patric

[Mr.T]

"PJScully1" > wrote in message
...
> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
> will find all the news groups in creation

No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups

> c.5000 I think:))

If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry them
all either.

MrT.

[PJScully1[_2_]]

Mr.T wrote:
> "PJScully1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
>> will find all the news groups in creation
>
> No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups
>
>> c.5000 I think:))
>
> If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry them
> all either.
and you know that, how?
>
> MrT.
having watched your posting behaviour for quite some
> time now , one is inclined to ask if you ever have anything constructive or useful to contribute to proceedings on this group,it appears not! you are obviously yet another useless waste of space with nothing particularly useful to offer.



>
>
>
>

[David Bostwick]

In article >, PJScully1 <""coffeyman\"@out the back.com.au"> wrote:
>Mr.T wrote:
>> "PJScully1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
>>> will find all the news groups in creation
>>
>> No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups
>>
>>> c.5000 I think:))
>>
>> If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry them
>> all either.
>and you know that, how?
>>
>> MrT.
>having watched your posting behaviour for quite some
>> time now , one is inclined to ask if you ever have anything constructive or
> useful to contribute to proceedings on this group,it appears not! you are
> obviously yet another useless waste of space with nothing particularly useful
> to offer.
>
>

One way to know that the max is not 5000 is to note that some ISPs show a lot
more than 5000 groups. Earthlink, for example, shows about 111000 groups,
which is more than 5000.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 11/12/2009 7:36 AM PJScully1 > spake thus:

> Mr.T wrote:
>
>> "PJScully1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
>>> will find all the news groups in creation
>>
>> No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups
>>> c.5000 I think:))
>>
>> If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry them
>> all either.
>
> and you know that, how?
>
> having watched your posting behaviour for quite some time now , one
> is inclined to ask if you ever have anything constructive or useful
> to contribute to proceedings on this group,it appears not! you are
> obviously yet another useless waste of space with nothing
> particularly useful to offer.

Well, you're right about "Mr. T" being something of an unhelpful ass.
But he's correct, and you're wrong, about the number of newsgroups that
exist. It's far more than 5,000.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, (David Bostwick) wrote:
>In article >, PJScully1 <""coffeyman\"@out the
> back.com.au"> wrote:
>>Mr.T wrote:
>>> "PJScully1" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
>>>> will find all the news groups in creation
>>>
>>> No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups
>>>
>>>> c.5000 I think:))
>>>
>>> If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry them
>>> all either.
>>and you know that, how?
>>>
>>> MrT.
>>having watched your posting behaviour for quite some
>>> time now , one is inclined to ask if you ever have anything constructive or
>> useful to contribute to proceedings on this group,it appears not! you are
>> obviously yet another useless waste of space with nothing particularly useful
>> to offer.
>>
>>
>
>One way to know that the max is not 5000 is to note that some ISPs show a lot
>more than 5000 groups. Earthlink, for example, shows about 111000 groups,
>which is more than 5000.
>

I quit worring about my newsreader, or as I call it. my Usenet reader.
It does not list all the groups. It used to. Either it has a limitation, or
other problem with Windows compatability. For example, I do not see any rec
group. If I know there is a group, I can suscribe manually in the setup file.
So my 1997 version of News Express has bugs, but I still love it.

greg

[Mr.T]

"David Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, PJScully1 <""coffeyman\"@out the
back.com.au"> wrote:
> >Mr.T wrote:
> >> "PJScully1" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> try contacting your ISP and ask if the have a news server if yes you
> >>> will find all the news groups in creation
> >>
> >> No you won't. Very few (if any) ISP's carry *all* the newsgroups
> >>
> >>> c.5000 I think:))
> >>
> >> If you think that all there are, then obviously your ISP doesn't carry
them
> >> all either.
> >and you know that, how?
> >having watched your posting behaviour for quite some
> >> time now , one is inclined to ask if you ever have anything
constructive or
> > useful to contribute to proceedings on this group,it appears not! you
are
> > obviously yet another useless waste of space with nothing particularly
useful
> > to offer.
> >
> >
>
> One way to know that the max is not 5000 is to note that some ISPs show a
lot
> more than 5000 groups. Earthlink, for example, shows about 111000 groups,
> which is more than 5000.


Don't confuse him with facts, he'll call you "another waste of space".
Not sure what pig ignorance makes him though.

MrT.