Cheap portable A to D audio converter recommendations?

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.

Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
rather, not wanting to pay for them).

Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
there.
Thanks in advance, folks,

Jez

[Mike Rivers]

The Immoral Mr Teas wrote:
> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.

Core Sound Mic2496 Version 2
http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php

> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).

You don't pay for preamps in a unit somewhat like what you're looking for.
You get them whether you want them or not. You may have to pay more
to get one without mic preamps.

[Rob B]

On Sep 12, 1:08*pm, The Immoral Mr Teas > wrote:
> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.
>
> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).
>
> Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
> there.
> Thanks in advance, folks,
>
> Jez

Denecke AD20 (but it has a preamp) - info on their web site

[Douglas Tourtelot[_2_]]

Just curious why you would want a cheap unit in so critical a juncture in
the chain? The Alesis Ai-1 is cheap (and cheap) and can be found on ebay.
I sold mine there because it sounded bad. The Presonus DigiMax FS is one
that I use now for D to A to feed comteks and IFB, but I tried the preamps
the other day and they sounded, well, bad.

Maybe you should get something that you won't hate after a few weeks.

D.


On 9/12/09 11:08 AM, in article
, "The
Immoral Mr Teas" > wrote:

> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.
>
> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).
>
> Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
> there.
> Thanks in advance, folks,
>
> Jez

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

On Sep 12, 11:16*pm, Douglas Tourtelot > wrote:
> Just curious why you would want a cheap unit in so critical a juncture in
> the chain? *The Alesis Ai-1 is cheap (and cheap) and can be found on ebay.
> I sold mine there because it sounded bad. *The Presonus DigiMax FS is one
> that I use now for D to A to feed comteks and IFB, but I tried the preamps
> the other day and they sounded, well, bad.

Thanks Mike, Bob, Rob, Doug ...

Replying via Ramps so hope it carries over both platforms.
(rec.audio.pro)

Doug, basically, I'm recording more and more multichannel stuff at the
moment, a lot of it to compare technique. The microtracks have served
me not so well in many ways but generally fine - via good mics and
preamps - going in line level as a 2 channel recorder, and I find the
ADs within fine btw. However, there are phase problems when trying to
double up units for 3, 4 channels over long takes ... I can imagine
being because the actual sample rate between two units is not exactly
96.0000kHz ... So I thought trying going in several units (multiple
sine tones played through preamps to sync them up) via spdif might
solve this problem. Bare in mind this a slight resulting speed slip of
samples over several minutes, but enough to render coincident
recording experiments buggered.

Good preamp components (like good mic components) as we know cost
money, but these days an AD converter, (unless bought from digidesign
ha ha) could be excellent and pretty cheap in itself. Despite the
original post, I obviously would need a multichannel solution, which
doubtless doesn't exist. ??? I'd forgotten the Denecke and the
coresound and will have a look at both ... but they were from a while
ago as far as I remember, so possibly too expensive for current two
channel stuff so obsolete? I'm about to look at the presonus ...
sounds a possibility ... the ADs sound better than the preamps I
presumus? Actual AD converters available to sound machine makers out
there on the market these days seem so good and relatively cheap I
hoped there may be a few 'one job' boxes out there ...

I'm not knocking the specialised equipment, Sound Devices, Nagra,
Cantar, Sonosax etc, but experiments don't pay for it ... last month I
was using a microtrack alongside a 744 for a recording when I'd
reckoned the 744 would be enough.

Thanks again everyone and please keep suggestions coming,

Jez

[AC[_3_]]

On Sep 13, 2:08*am, The Immoral Mr Teas > wrote:
> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.
>
> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).
>
> Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
> there.
> Thanks in advance, folks,
>
> Jez

Jez,

I do have a Apogee Mini-Me for sale, its less then a year old. I
replace it with a Motu Traveler as I needed more. Email me if you are
interested.

Alan

[[email protected]]

On Sep 12, 7:08*pm, The Immoral Mr Teas > wrote:

Try This

http://www.planetdv.net/Content/Digital_Video_Converters/Aja.asp
I use it and it works great
Ian Voigt AMPS

[Marco Leavitt]

I second the AD-20, although you really want to keep the gain at below
50 percent, or even off altogether if practical. They get noisy if any
higher.

[Mike Rivers]

The Immoral Mr Teas wrote:

> Doug, basically, I'm recording more and more multichannel stuff at the
> moment

I did notice that in your original post, but you said you wanted S/PDIF
output.
That's a pair of channels, and it'll never be any more than a pair of
channels
unless you do something like Dolby E (I think that's the designation)
multi-channel
encoding into a stereo channel. So I assumed you didn't know what you were
asking for and responded to your basic requirement of small, battery
powered,
good quality, high sample rate, with S/PDIF output.

> The microtracks have served
> me not so well in many ways but generally fine - via good mics and
> preamps - going in line level as a 2 channel recorder, and I find the
> ADs within fine btw. However, there are phase problems when trying to
> double up units for 3, 4 channels over long takes ... I can imagine
> being because the actual sample rate between two units is not exactly
> 96.0000kHz ...

That's certainly a consideration since there's no way to synchronize their
clocks. You can line up the starting point pretty closely but there's
potential
for drift. "Wild sync" can work better than you'd expect in multitrack
applications
where there's different material on each track, but when you're trying
to combine
them and you need phase accuracy, it doesn't take very long before they get
far enough off to notice.

> Despite the
> original post, I obviously would need a multichannel solution, which
> doubtless doesn't exist. ???

If you talk to Dan Lavry, he'll do his best to convince you that Firewire
won't work for multichannel audio because, while the channels are clocked
together, the absolute timing between channels isn't always the same, so
there
could be a constant time shift between channels that's different next
time you
play it back. I can't substantiate this, but the AES show is coming up
in a few
weeks. Go and talk with Dan.

> I'd forgotten the Denecke and the
> coresound and will have a look at both ... but they were from a while
> ago as far as I remember, so possibly too expensive for current two
> channel stuff so obsolete?

This isn't a big market, so there isn't demand for new development. They're
both pretty darn good. I remembered the Deneke but I couldn't find a quick
reference for anyone currently marketing it (Mr. Deneke died a few years
ago) so I wasn't sure it was available any more other than from the
mysterious
"eBay." There are expensive solution like the Sound Devices 7xx series
recorders (which is available in up to 8 channels) which can link word
clocks
for synchronization. They're small, battery powered, and high
resolution, but
they sure ain't cheap, particularly compared to things like the MicroTrack
recorders.

[maskhat]

http://www.lynx-technik.com/index.php?id=76

Just found this one, but it is not so cheap:
£ 725.00 @ Canford UK

[Manuel Naudin]

On 12 sep, 20:08, The Immoral Mr Teas > wrote:
> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.
>
> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).
>
> Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
> there.
> Thanks in advance, folks,

well, does not fits all your expectations but might be interesting :
http://www.gpsys.com/products/adc24.htm

Manuel

[David Waelder[_2_]]

On Sep 13, 4:57*am, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> The Immoral Mr Teas wrote:
[snip] I remembered the Deneke but I couldn't find a quick
> reference for anyone currently marketing it (Mr. Deneke died a few years
> ago) so I wasn't sure it was available any more other than from the
> mysterious
> "eBay." [snip]

I can't speak to the suitability of the Denecke AD-20 preamp and A-D
converter for this particular application. However, it should be
readily available from any Denecke dealer. The company is still very
much in operation under the direction of Charles Parra, Mike's chief
engineer. The AD-20 preamp is listed as a current product in the on-
line catalog:

http://www.denecke.com/Products/Audio%20Accessories/audioaccessories.htm

Price, according to the site, is $325.

David Waelder

[Arny Krueger]

"The Immoral Mr Teas" > wrote in message


> The microtracks have served me not so well in many ways
> but generally fine - via good mics and preamps - going in
> line level as a 2 channel recorder, and I find the ADs
> within fine btw.

IME the mic inputs on my MK1 MT are fine, but limited in terms of gain. As
usual for low cost equipment the mic inputs and the line inputs are the same
basic electronics, but somehow the line levels are too sensitive (I end up
using attenuators with them) while as mic inputs there are situations where
they could have more gain. Its claimed that the MT2 addresses some of this,
but I'm too tight on bucks and too happy with the MK1 to invest again this
soon.

> However, there are phase problems when
> trying to double up units for 3, 4 channels over long
> takes ...

Yes, the world awaits a MT-like product with four discrete, independent,
flexible channels.

I've heard and read that the Zoom H4 can do 4 discrete channels, but it
appears that 2 of them have to be sourced with the internal mics. Can some
actual H4 owner confirm or deny?

> I can imagine being because the actual sample
> rate between two units is not exactly 96.0000kHz ..

And no master clock inputs or outputs...

.. So I thought trying going in several units
> (multiple sine tones played through preamps to sync them
> up) via spdif might solve this problem.

That could work. I forgot that the SP/DIF jack is input, but it is. Thanks
for the mind jog. I wonder if the SP/DIF jack is monitored by the internal
clocking circuitry, even when you're recording in analog. Some computer
audio interfaces, even some by M-Audio can work that way. Might be worth a
try.


> Bare in mind this
> a slight resulting speed slip of samples over several
> minutes, but enough to render coincident recording
> experiments buggered.

Probably. You can do the math and see how bad the slip is. The back of an
envelope says that 0.005% is 5 milliseconds per minute.


> Good preamp components (like good mic components) as we
> know cost money, but these days an AD converter, (unless
> bought from digidesign ha ha) could be excellent and
> pretty cheap in itself.

If one could remultiplex the ADAT output of an ADA8000 so as to piggy back 2
channels of 24/48 on each 24/96 channel of a Microtrack...

Well, just free-associating too soon after a 3 hour afternoon nap after a
2-day tear this weekend... Reader beware ;-)

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "The Immoral Mr Teas" > wrote in message
>
>
> > The microtracks have served me not so well in many ways
> > but generally fine - via good mics and preamps - going in
> > line level as a 2 channel recorder, and I find the ADs
> > within fine btw.
>
> IME the mic inputs on my MK1 MT are fine, but limited in terms of gain. As
> usual for low cost equipment the mic inputs and the line inputs are the same
> basic electronics, but somehow the line levels are too sensitive (I end up
> using attenuators with them) while as mic inputs there are situations where
> they could have more gain. Its claimed that the MT2 addresses some of this,
> but I'm too tight on bucks and too happy with the MK1 to invest again this
> soon.
>
> > However, there are phase problems when
> > trying to double up units for 3, 4 channels over long
> > takes ...
>
> Yes, the world awaits a MT-like product with four discrete, independent,
> flexible channels.
>
> I've heard and read that the Zoom H4 can do 4 discrete channels, but it
> appears that 2 of them have to be sourced with the internal mics. Can some
> actual H4 owner confirm or deny?

Confirmed.

[Peter Kurland]

On Sep 12, 1:08*pm, The Immoral Mr Teas > wrote:
> Does anyone know what's out there in the realm of audio Analogue to
> Digital converters, preferably to spdif, preferably multichannel but
> not so important, and 24 bit (or haha 19 bit ... but over 16 bit) at
> 96kHz or above? Oh, and small and battery powered.
>
> Not wanting the preamps with for instance the Apogee minime (or
> rather, not wanting to pay for them).
>
> Consumer or professional units ... I'm interested in anything out
> there.
> Thanks in advance, folks,
>
> Jez

One thing I'd consider is using an older model recorder. For example,
a Deva II has 4 decent A to D both line and mic level. Battery-
powered. You also get built-in monitoring and a bonus 4 track
recorder! I hear they're fairly cheap now. If you want SPDIF you might
consider an HHB Portadat. I haven't tried one without tape loaded,
but if it still passes signal it has all you ask and I think they need
good homes. What goes bad is the transport. But you wouldn't need any
of the bits with moving parts.
Peter

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" > wrote in message


>>> However, there are phase problems when
>>> trying to double up units for 3, 4 channels over long
>>> takes ...
>>
>> Yes, the world awaits a MT-like product with four
>> discrete, independent, flexible channels.

>> I've heard and read that the Zoom H4 can do 4 discrete
>> channels, but it appears that 2 of them have to be
>> sourced with the internal mics.

Suggesting that a hack might be possible that changes or augments the
internal mics with line inputs.

>> Can some actual H4 owner
>> confirm or deny?

> Confirmed.

Thanks Jenn. In what context are you using Zoom H4s?

I have a friend who is teaching a recording technology class at a nearby
university that uses them in his class.

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

> Try This
>
> http://www.planetdv.net/Content/Digital_Video_Converters/Aja.asp
> I use it and it works great
> Ian Voigt AMPS

Ian, do you mean the
AJA ADA4 4-Channel Bi-Directional Audio A/D & D/A Converter ?
That looks a possibility, thanks.

BTW, I did 80 Days with Frank. Sometimes tough but often nearly died
laughing!

Cheers, Jez

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

Mike, thanks again,

Basically I wasn't sure what - if anything - was out on the market to
do multi channel AD conversion.

> ...you said you wanted S/PDIF output.
> That's a pair of channels, and it'll never be any more than a pair of channels

Yep, I'm after multiple synched pairs. I am basically being 'cheap' -
I have several portable high quality preamps and the largely crappy
microtrack has served me reasonably well for putting two channels down
on disk. I reckoned the very slight slip from a couple or more units
might be eliminated by feeding from a digital source (from, for
instance, the new Sonosax 3 channel mixer) ... but I'm not looking to
pay for the other expensive elements in the chain. Perhaps the cheaper
Edirol 4 channel would be easiest solution overall.

> That's certainly a consideration since there's no way to synchronize their
> clocks. You can line up the starting point pretty closely but there's
> potential for drift.

Precisely what I've found. For combining coincident mics for
subsequent mixing it's a non-starter.

> If you talk to Dan Lavry, he'll do his best to convince you that Firewire
> won't work for multichannel audio because, while the channels are clocked
> together, the absolute timing between channels isn't always the same, so
> there could be a constant time shift between channels that's different next
> time you play it back. I can't substantiate this, but the AES show is coming up
> in a few weeks. Go and talk with Dan.

Won't be there, but food for thought, thanks.

Jez

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3/.
It has a total of 8
> analog inputs. At $550 from B&H, it's about $68/channel:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/572358REG/MOTU_8400_UltraLite_m...
>
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511

Thanks Bob - will look more closely at this in the next few days.
Looks like the digital out MAY just be a two channel spdif however
from their page but will look more closely. If not, could be ideal.

Last post of the evening before sleep beckons, so thanks everyone for
comments and suggestions. Looks very possible that the Edirol could be
the cheapest multitrack option out there. Whilst the 788 and Sonosax
R4 are the most desirable for portability and features (a Deva II is
just too big Pete ... I still use the preamps from my Nagra IVS
occasionally, but at home!)

Anyway, thanks all for suggestions and help.

Jez

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>
>
> >>> However, there are phase problems when
> >>> trying to double up units for 3, 4 channels over long
> >>> takes ...
> >>
> >> Yes, the world awaits a MT-like product with four
> >> discrete, independent, flexible channels.
>
> >> I've heard and read that the Zoom H4 can do 4 discrete
> >> channels, but it appears that 2 of them have to be
> >> sourced with the internal mics.
>
> Suggesting that a hack might be possible that changes or augments the
> internal mics with line inputs.
>
> >> Can some actual H4 owner
> >> confirm or deny?
>
> > Confirmed.
>
> Thanks Jenn. In what context are you using Zoom H4s?

Actually the H4. I used one for just over a year, then recently sold it
to trade up to a Sony PCM-D50. Better sound IMO, more flexibility with
the built in mics, and easier to operate, especially when in a hurry.

I used the Zoom/use the Sony as a practice and writing "notepad", to
share musical ideas with colleagues via email from home when setting up
my little studio isn't practical or needed, recording my students'
lessons, recording lessons/workshops that I take, and recording
rehearsals and performances of my ensembles when having our recording
tech folks do it isn't practical. These little devices are a great
advance for folks like me.

[JasonSobel]

The Sonic AD2K+ (aka Benchmark Media AD2402-96) is a fantastic
portable A/D converter. I don't think you can buy it new anymore, but
I've seen used units go for as little as ~$600 (new, I think they were
~$1800). Another wonderful portable A/D unit to consider is the Mytek
Stereo192 ADC. (note that you need to get the 192. The Mytek Stereo96
ADC is not DC powered, but the Stereo192 can be DC powered).

Both the Benchmark and the Mytek are 2-channel only, but are excellent
sounding professional products, with wordclock inputs/outputs, and S/
PDIF and AES outs. Also, both converters, in my opinion, are a big
step up from the Core Sound and Denecke units, and probably better
than the Apogee MiniMe as well.

[Douglas Tourtelot[_2_]]

I guess that people have confirmed my original post; there are plenty of
good A to D converters, and plenty of cheap ones. Just not any good, cheap
ones. It IS a vital link in the chain and a bad one can degrade the quality
of the final sound. Save and buy something you won't hate in months.

D.


On 9/14/09 4:45 AM, in article
,
"JasonSobel" > wrote:

> The Sonic AD2K+ (aka Benchmark Media AD2402-96) is a fantastic
> portable A/D converter. I don't think you can buy it new anymore, but
> I've seen used units go for as little as ~$600 (new, I think they were
> ~$1800). Another wonderful portable A/D unit to consider is the Mytek
> Stereo192 ADC. (note that you need to get the 192. The Mytek Stereo96
> ADC is not DC powered, but the Stereo192 can be DC powered).
>
> Both the Benchmark and the Mytek are 2-channel only, but are excellent
> sounding professional products, with wordclock inputs/outputs, and S/
> PDIF and AES outs. Also, both converters, in my opinion, are a big
> step up from the Core Sound and Denecke units, and probably better
> than the Apogee MiniMe as well.

[Mike Rivers]

Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
> I guess that people have confirmed my original post; there are plenty of
> good A to D converters, and plenty of cheap ones. Just not any good, cheap
> ones.

You would be surprised at how good some cheap converters are these days.
There are many converters that will get your mic preamps digitized
competently.
What there seems to be a shortage of is multi-channel converters that can be
DC powered. And if you buy 2-channel converters that have word clock I/O you
still need to get all of those stereo channels into a computer - so then
you're into
something like the Lynx LS-AES card, and since it's a PCI card, it won't
go into
a portable computer.