Wood Flooring & Recessed Lights

[area242]

Hi all,
I have a small room that I am using for my project studio and I'm in the
process of making a couple of addtions. I could use some feedback on a
couple of issues.
My room is pretty well dead right now, through the use of 3" acoustic foam
and bass traps.

1. I love the look of Maple flooring. This will obviously affect my sound
and I'm just curious if any of you guys are using this in your control room.
If so, I need to know what to expect it to do to my sound so I can determine
if's worth the trouble. Please mention any positives/negatives and just
things to be sure to do if I use it. BTW, I would be using real wood, and
not laminate flooring.

2. I'm wanting to replace all of my lighting fixtures with recessed
lighting. I don't think this is a problem, but want to make sure nobody is
having any audio problems introduced by the addition of recessed lights. I
plan on having them on a dimmer and leaving them dim most of the time...to
limit the bright light and heat.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience with these issues.

[James Boyk]

SCR-type dimmers---which everyone uses because Variacs are
expensive---can give bad problems with radiated buzz. From time to time
one hears of SCR's that are said not to have these problems; but they
always seem to have them anyway. (Of course this has nothing to do with
the lighting being recessed.)


This is assuming that your lighting is incandescent. You positively do
not want the dimmable-flourescent types, as they use power at 30 kHz.


I don't know the degree to which the cylinders of recessed lighting
resonate and affect the sound in a negative way; probably someone else
will know that.


I also don't know how susceptible the filaments or metal parts of such
fixtures are to vibrating. (I've seen at least one old studio that used
DC on the filaments to avoid hum.) I once had a high-pitched ringing
that was extremely annoying and hard to pin down; it turned out to be
the filament of a long-line incandescent bulb, one of those that look
like flourescents.


I do know that I've never seen an area lit by recessed lighting whose
illumination I found pleasing; but no doubt you've observed it and found
it to your taste.


James Boyk

[area242]

"James Boyk" > wrote in message
...
> SCR-type dimmers---which everyone uses because Variacs are
> expensive---can give bad problems with radiated buzz. From time to time
> one hears of SCR's that are said not to have these problems; but they
> always seem to have them anyway. (Of course this has nothing to do with
> the lighting being recessed.)

I should have added that I already have dimmers on my current fixtuers. I
haven't had any noise from them (yet).

> This is assuming that your lighting is incandescent. You positively do
> not want the dimmable-flourescent types, as they use power at 30 kHz.

Definately! Flourescents were already on my "no-no" list...although I've
heard of studios successfully using them and locating the transformers away
from the lights. But, I'm not interested in that...so incandescents is what
I'm planning on using.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!

[ScotFraser]

<< 1. I love the look of Maple flooring. This will obviously affect my sound
and I'm just curious if any of you guys are using this in your control room.
If so, I need to know what to expect it to do to my sound so I can determine
if's worth the trouble. Please mention any positives/negatives and just
things to be sure to do if I use it. >>

I have oak. It's more important to have a dead ceiling than a dead floor. It's
pretty difficult to manuever wheeled chairs on carpet.

<<2. I'm wanting to replace all of my lighting fixtures with recessed
lighting. I don't think this is a problem, but want to make sure nobody is
having any audio problems introduced by the addition of recessed lights. I
plan on having them on a dimmer and leaving them dim most of the time...to
limit the bright light and heat.>>

Don't use SCR dimmers. Even if your lighting power is well isolated from your
audio power, an SCR dimmer makes the filaments of incandescent lights buzz. Use
an autotransformer, but keep it away from single coil guitar pickups & be ready
to live with a bit of heat there.
I personally fail to see the appeal of dimmers in control rooms. I have 2 light
circuits. If I want low light I turn one circuit on. If I want more light I
turn that one off & turn on the one with more lights on it. If I want still
more light I turn both circuits on. They have 40watt bulbs in them so it never
gets overly bright nor overly hot. No problem.




Scott Fraser

[William Sommerwerck]

If you don't mind an aesthetic opinion...

Recessed lighting, full or dim, tends to produce "pools" of light. This is
probably NOT what you want when working at the console.

Note also, that for a given lighting level, running low-wattage bulbs at full
power consumes LESS energy than running high-wattage bulbs dimmed. (Dimming a
lamp lowers its temperature, reducing its conversion efficiency.)

I recommend placing undimmed halogen torchieres in the corners of the room and
letting their light bounce off the ceiling. It'll also cost a LOT less than
recessed fixtures.

[area242]

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
> If you don't mind an aesthetic opinion...
>
> Recessed lighting, full or dim, tends to produce "pools" of light. This is
> probably NOT what you want when working at the console.
>
> Note also, that for a given lighting level, running low-wattage bulbs at
full
> power consumes LESS energy than running high-wattage bulbs dimmed.
(Dimming a
> lamp lowers its temperature, reducing its conversion efficiency.)

I plan on running very low wattage bulbs AND dimming them as needed. I also
have some ambient lighting at the corners of the rooms. The way I work, I
really prefer very low,dimmed lighting. I just want to make sure I don't
run into any weirdness (buzzing, etc).

I recommend placing undimmed halogen torchieres in the corners of the room
and
letting their light bounce off the ceiling. It'll also cost a LOT less than
recessed fixtures.

Yep, good call! I'm using 15W accent lighting in the corners now. I'll be
using the recessed really just for reinforcement lighting as needed (to
read, adjust gear).

Thanks for the input!

[area242]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << 1. I love the look of Maple flooring. This will obviously affect my
sound
> and I'm just curious if any of you guys are using this in your control
room.
> If so, I need to know what to expect it to do to my sound so I can
determine
> if's worth the trouble. Please mention any positives/negatives and just
> things to be sure to do if I use it. >>
>
> I have oak. It's more important to have a dead ceiling than a dead floor.
It's
> pretty difficult to manuever wheeled chairs on carpet.

Cool, that's what I was hoping! I've got all other walls/ceiling pretty
dead. Rolling chairs was a nice big plus in my thinking on this one too.
:-)

> <<2. I'm wanting to replace all of my lighting fixtures with recessed
> lighting. I don't think this is a problem, but want to make sure nobody
is
> having any audio problems introduced by the addition of recessed lights.
I
> plan on having them on a dimmer and leaving them dim most of the time...to
> limit the bright light and heat.>>
>
> Don't use SCR dimmers. Even if your lighting power is well isolated from
your
> audio power, an SCR dimmer makes the filaments of incandescent lights
buzz. Use
> an autotransformer, but keep it away from single coil guitar pickups & be
ready
> to live with a bit of heat there.

Yeah, I've been getting a lot of advise on avoiding those dimmers. I'm not
sure what I've got installed now (dimmer-wise) but I haven't had a problem
with them yet. I'm going to be looking out for anything and they'll be the
first to go if need be. I'm going to be using very low wattage bulbs and
dimming as needed, so I don't anticapte too much heat. Again, I'm really
using these as reenforcement lighting, as I have (4) 15W accent lights in
the corners for working/ambience. I'll only be using the recessed lighting
for reading, working on gear, or other moments when a little more light is
desired.

> I personally fail to see the appeal of dimmers in control rooms. I have 2
light
> circuits. If I want low light I turn one circuit on. If I want more light
I
> turn that one off & turn on the one with more lights on it. If I want
still
> more light I turn both circuits on. They have 40watt bulbs in them so it
never
> gets overly bright nor overly hot. No problem.

Yeah, it's really just a personal thing. Just my taste. Thanks for the
input...I appreciate it!

[Rob Adelman]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Recessed lighting is fine. Dimmers are nightmarish. Spend the money and
> get a real variac system; don't piddle around with even the higher end
> SCR dimmers.


Scott is right. I finally took his advise and put in a variac and it
solved my humming problems. In addition it is an awesome light control,
not wimpy like the usual dimmers.

-Rob

[area242]

> Scott is right. I finally took his advise and put in a variac and it
> solved my humming problems. In addition it is an awesome light control,
> not wimpy like the usual dimmers.
>
> -Rob

Cool, how much do they run? (just in case I end up having problems with what
I have installed now). If they're not *really* expensive, I may just go
ahead and install them anyway...

Thanks again!

[Rob Adelman]

Oops, this is the second one:
<http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3734086/1047524244711_variac_panel.jpg>

[xy]

i thought a variac and a dimmer are the same thing

>
> Recessed lighting is fine. Dimmers are nightmarish. Spend the money and
> get a real variac system; don't piddle around with even the higher end
> SCR dimmers.
> --scott

[James Boyk]

xy wrote:
> i thought a variac and a dimmer are the same thing


A Variac is a kind of dimmer. There are other kinds. The most common
these days are SCR-type dimmers.


James Boyk

[Les Cargill]

James Boyk wrote:
>
> xy wrote:
> > i thought a variac and a dimmer are the same thing
>
> A Variac is a kind of dimmer. There are other kinds. The most common
> these days are SCR-type dimmers.
>
> James Boyk

A Variac is actually a variable autotransformer. It preserves
( within limits ) the original waveform.

An SCR dimmer clips the original waveform to provide the
reduction in RMS voltage, also providing a whole
bunch of RF and line noise hash in the process.

--
Les Cargill

[Roger W. Norman]

Humming problems? Don't know the lyrics?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Rob Adelman" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > Recessed lighting is fine. Dimmers are nightmarish. Spend the money
and
> > get a real variac system; don't piddle around with even the higher end
> > SCR dimmers.
>
>
> Scott is right. I finally took his advise and put in a variac and it
> solved my humming problems. In addition it is an awesome light control,
> not wimpy like the usual dimmers.
>
> -Rob
>
>

[William Sommerwerck]

> An SCR dimmer clips the original waveform to provide
> the reduction in RMS voltage, also providing a whole
> bunch of RF and line noise hash in the process.

It should be clarified that it clips the waveform in time, not amplitude.

[Scott Dorsey]

xy > wrote:
>i thought a variac and a dimmer are the same thing

A Variac is actually a General Radio brandname for an autotransformer,
basically a toroidal transformer with hundreds of taps on it. When you
turn the knob, you are adjusting the transformer ratio and therefore the
AC voltage on the secondary.

Most dimmers are SCR type dimmers. They have a semiconductor that turns
on and off, and chops off the top of the waveform. These can be made much
smaller and more efficient than variacs, but because they now are producing
this squared-off waveform, the amount of harmonics they dump on the line
is staggering. These pretty much replaced variacs in the seventies because
they were so much cheaper, with the consequent noise nightmares.

There's a third sort of dimming system, and that is the rheostat. These
are variable resistors that are placed in series with a lamp, so as they
are adjusted, the voltage across the lamp changes. But they dissipate vast
amounts of heat because the power that isn't going into the lamp is going
into the resistive element. By the 1950s they were pretty much replaced by
variacs, but you'll still see them in old theatres. Usually there will be
a separate room for the resistive elements, with bicycle chains going to the
booth to control them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[BASSMANCP]

Hi there,
You might also want to look at Birch flooring. It is about as hard as Maple but
it is less expensive and it finishes with a slightly warmer color. In studios I
never use
anything on a hardwood floor for finish except straight linseed oil. That way
if it gets scratched, a little rubbing with some steelwool with linseed on it
(keep away from all electronics) and the repair will disappear. Also, it is
sure nice to see some input from Mr. Boyk here on RAP.
We're not worthy!! ;o)

Chris P

[ScotFraser]

<< An SCR dimmer clips the original waveform to provide the
reduction in RMS voltage, also providing a whole
bunch of RF and line noise hash in the process. >>

The resulting rectangular waveform makes the filaments of the lights buzz
audibly, too.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< It should be clarified that it clips the waveform in time, not amplitude. >>

Right, it's a waveshaper, not a clipper.



Scott Fraser

[Dave Martin]

"BASSMANCP" > wrote in message
...
> Hi there,
> You might also want to look at Birch flooring. It is about as hard as
Maple but
> it is less expensive and it finishes with a slightly warmer color. In
studios I
> never use
> anything on a hardwood floor for finish except straight linseed oil. That
way
> if it gets scratched, a little rubbing with some steelwool with linseed on
it
> (keep away from all electronics) and the repair will disappear. >
> Chris P

I found a deal on oak for my floor, and it's a straight waxed finish - not
polyurethane. And for the same reason - every year or so, I can simply wax
and buff the floor and all the scratches go away.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[EganMedia]

>Don't use SCR dimmers. Even if your lighting power is well isolated from your
>audio power, an SCR dimmer makes the filaments of incandescent lights buzz.

Every once in a while this thread pops up. I have to disagree. I have 18 (!)
Lightolier "On Set" brand dimmers in three separate studios. They are not
Variacs. There is *no* hum, filament buzz, or noise issue caused by them.
They were spec'd by my designer, Fran Manzella, a pretty well respected studio
designer and former chief tech at Skyline Studios in NY. He knows his ****.
For whatever reason, these (relatively) inexpensive dimmers work great. We had
two fail when they were new, but they were replaced and we haven't had any
issues since. They're small, unobtrusive, and have multiple preset levels for
diferent lighting needs. Before you go and spends hundreds of dollars for each
variac, check out Lightolier.


Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

[William Sommerwerck]

That should be "Danke, Herr" (which would be apt for a Sommerwerck), or
"Gracias, señor."

>> It should be clarified that it clips the waveform in time,
>> not amplitude.

> Yes! Yes! Danke, señor.

[Scott Dorsey]

xy > wrote:
>
>I also thought a rheostat was a variac. What the heck did I know!

I didn't know either, until I had to fix a Ward-Leonard lighting rig.

With any luck, the AES show tour of the Lowe's Jersey theatre next month
will have a nice tour of a typical walk-in resistive dimmer setup. Should
be worth attending the show just for the theatre tour.

>Eddie Van Halen was supposed to have used a variac on his original
>Marshall guitar amp. Not sure how it affected gain staging or tube
>overdrive, but we all know what awesome tone his "magic brownsound"
>amp put out.

The idea on this is to run the amplifier at lower than normal supply
voltage (though still with nice clean AC). The bias voltages get all
wrong, the plate voltages are too low, the filaments are too low so
everything gets more nonlinear. A quick route to an interesting sort
of distorted tone.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

ScotFraser > wrote:
><< t" brand dimmers in three separate studios. They are not
>Variacs. There is *no* hum, filament buzz, or noise issue caused by them. >>
>
>Well, that's a new one on me. I have been around theatrical lighting dimmers
>for most of the last 30 years, some cheaper & some way expensive, & I've heard
>a lot of buzzing filaments, definitely loud enough to be picked up by mics,
>loud enough that musicians ask what's causing the noise (especially when racks
>of PAR64s are stacked on stage). I've also heard plenty of buzzing filaments in
>my own living room with a cheap consumer level SCR dimmer. It's great you could
>find dimmers that don't do this, but it is certainly the exception, not the
>rule.

A lot of it has to do with the lamps as well. If you use cheap bulbs with
poorly supported filaments, they'll buzz like mad, but traffic signal bulbs
which have a lot of additional filament supports will be much quieter.

The traffic signal bulbs also last a lot longer than normal household lamps,
as well as being more rugged. They burn yellower, something like 2600'K
instead of 2800'K for soft white incandescents, and so they are less efficient,
but I like the warmer light myself.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Rob Reedijk > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>> xy > wrote:
>>>
>>>Eddie Van Halen was supposed to have used a variac on his original
>>>Marshall guitar amp. Not sure how it affected gain staging or tube
>>>overdrive, but we all know what awesome tone his "magic brownsound"
>>>amp put out.
>
>> The idea on this is to run the amplifier at lower than normal supply
>> voltage (though still with nice clean AC). The bias voltages get all
>> wrong, the plate voltages are too low, the filaments are too low so
>> everything gets more nonlinear. A quick route to an interesting sort
>> of distorted tone.
>
>I heard that he used the variac to up the voltage. I guess the fact that
>there would be rectifiers limiting it anyway is an argument against that,
>though.

You can do that too. That's not so good for the amp. And the rectifiers
won't limit anything, at least not until they start arcing over. But again
you're deliberately running it outside the range it's designed for.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."