telephonic jamming?

[greg]

So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck
with that?

I'm finding boxes that seem intended for similar use at, e.g.

http://www.jkaudio.com/autohybrid.htm
http://www.jkaudio.com/that-2.htm

which I could imagine putting together with mics and headphones and
mixers for the purpose, but don't want to waste money on a failed
experiment.

Thanks, Greg

[Boris Lau]

greg wrote:
> So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
> guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck
> with that?

Assess the latency first. Call him up, start counting loud from 1 to 20,
and let him join in with you. Don't adapt to his counting. You will then
be able to hear if there's a significant latency or not. If it seems ok,
try it strumming your guitar and let him join in again. Again, don't
adapt to his playing, and you will hear the latency and you'll be able
to judge if its usable or not.

Only if the latency is ok, think about audio stuff...

Best,
Boris

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:57:36 +0200, Boris Lau
> wrote:

>greg wrote:
>> So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
>> guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck
>> with that?
>
>Assess the latency first. Call him up, start counting loud from 1 to 20,
>and let him join in with you. Don't adapt to his counting. You will then
>be able to hear if there's a significant latency or not. If it seems ok,
>try it strumming your guitar and let him join in again. Again, don't
>adapt to his playing, and you will hear the latency and you'll be able
>to judge if its usable or not.
>
>Only if the latency is ok, think about audio stuff...
>
>Best,
>Boris

Quite. I'm certain it can't be done via an Internet connection, it
will need to be a leased line to get the kind of latency figures you
need. Even then I'm doubtful.

d

[Boris Lau]

Don Pearce wrote:
> Quite. I'm certain it can't be done via an Internet connection, it
> will need to be a leased line to get the kind of latency figures you
> need. Even then I'm doubtful.

Oh yeah, I would also assume that internet is out of the question,
unless you use loops and add tracks in an asynchronous way.
But telephone might work, depending on the network, don't know...

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:17:24 +0200, Boris Lau
> wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>> Quite. I'm certain it can't be done via an Internet connection, it
>> will need to be a leased line to get the kind of latency figures you
>> need. Even then I'm doubtful.
>
>Oh yeah, I would also assume that internet is out of the question,
>unless you use loops and add tracks in an asynchronous way.
>But telephone might work, depending on the network, don't know...

As you say, depending on the network. You can't even guarantee that
there would be no satellite in the link. That would kill the whole
thing stone dead.

d

[KGT]

On Aug 27, 5:44*am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:17:24 +0200, Boris Lau
>
> > wrote:
> >Don Pearce wrote:
> >> Quite. I'm certain it can't be done via an Internet connection, it
> >> will need to be a leased line to get the kind of latency figures you
> >> need. Even then I'm doubtful.
>
> >Oh yeah, I would also assume that internet is out of the question,
> >unless you use loops and add tracks in an asynchronous way.
> >But telephone might work, depending on the network, don't know...
>
> As you say, depending on the network. You can't even guarantee that
> there would be no satellite in the link. That would kill the whole
> thing stone dead.
>
> d


The JK audio method will have 300-3k bandwidth and variable delay
latency from call to call. Try E Jamming AFAIK the system is optimized
for real time music.

http://news.harmony-central.com/Product-news/eJamming-AUDiiO-2-0-Software-Connects-Musicians-Online-To-Play-And-Record-Together-Live-In-Real-Time

[Scott Dorsey]

greg > wrote:
>So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
>guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck
>with that?
>
>I'm finding boxes that seem intended for similar use at, e.g.
>
> http://www.jkaudio.com/autohybrid.htm
> http://www.jkaudio.com/that-2.htm
>
>which I could imagine putting together with mics and headphones and
>mixers for the purpose, but don't want to waste money on a failed
>experiment.

There have been plenty of facilities to let you do this on the internet
over the years, starting out with Rocket Network. They all have varying
issues with latency but might be worth checking out.

I have done attended sessions with the producer on the other end of a
phone patch, and that seems to work fine although there is often a
substantial delay (as much as a quarter second) round trip.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[greg]

So many helpful responses, thanks!

We've tried jamming over speakerphones, and can mostly get it
together, but the automatic half-duplexing makes it hard to hear each
other play. So maybe telephone latency will be bearable for what we're
up to if we can get a full-duplex connection. Maybe we could even let
the notes bounce between coasts a bit and have fun with it.

So I'm thinking maybe two of the cheapest analog "couplers",e.g.
Comrex TCB-1
http://www.proaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=643
will do the trick, as I'm not getting what the more expensive "hybrid"
units are for.

The internet approach does sound promising, and I found a nice
discussion of the alternatives here:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/virtual-jamming

But I have a hard enough time getting Jimmy's wife to open my emails
and convince Jimmy to look at the screen, whereas I know he's fearless
with analog electronics.


On Aug 27, 6:27 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> greg > wrote:
> >So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
> >guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck
> >with that?
>
> >I'm finding boxes that seem intended for similar use at, e.g.
>
> > http://www.jkaudio.com/autohybrid.htm
> > http://www.jkaudio.com/that-2.htm
>
> >which I could imagine putting together with mics and headphones and
> >mixers for the purpose, but don't want to waste money on a failed
> >experiment.
>
> There have been plenty of facilities to let you do this on the internet
> over the years, starting out with Rocket Network. They all have varying
> issues with latency but might be worth checking out.
>
> I have done attended sessions with the producer on the other end of a
> phone patch, and that seems to work fine although there is often a
> substantial delay (as much as a quarter second) round trip.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[greg]

PS. Aha. The hybrids are full duplex.

It's pricey, but this all-in-one unit would make it pretty easy:

http://www.jkaudio.com/remotemix-cplus_dnloads.htm

And this much cheaper unit would suffice if combined with a little
mixer:

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/243557.html


On Aug 27, 11:00*am, greg > wrote:
> So many helpful responses, thanks!
>
> We've tried jamming over speakerphones, and can mostly get it
> together, but the automatic half-duplexing makes it hard to hear each
> other play. So maybe telephone latency will be bearable for what we're
> up to if we can get a full-duplex connection. *Maybe we could even let
> the notes bounce between coasts a bit and have fun with it.
>
> So I'm thinking maybe two of the cheapest analog "couplers",e.g.
> Comrex TCB-1
> * *http://www.proaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=643
> will do the trick, as I'm not getting what the more expensive "hybrid"
> units are for.
>
> The internet approach does sound promising, and I found a nice
> discussion of the alternatives here:
> * *http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/virtual-jamming
>
> But I have a hard enough time getting Jimmy's wife to open my emails
> and convince Jimmy to look at the screen, whereas I know he's fearless
> with analog electronics.
>
> On Aug 27, 6:27 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
>
> > greg > wrote:
> > >So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his
> > >guitars are in Carolina, and we need to jam. *Has anyone had any luck
> > >with that?
>
> > >I'm finding boxes that seem intended for similar use at, e.g.
>
> > > *http://www.jkaudio.com/autohybrid.htm
> > > *http://www.jkaudio.com/that-2.htm
>
> > >which I could imagine putting together with mics and headphones and
> > >mixers for the purpose, but don't want to waste money on a failed
> > >experiment.
>
> > There have been plenty of facilities to let you do this on the internet
> > over the years, starting out with Rocket Network. *They all have varying
> > issues with latency but might be worth checking out.
>
> > I have done attended sessions with the producer on the other end of a
> > phone patch, and that seems to work fine although there is often a
> > substantial delay (as much as a quarter second) round trip.
> > --scott
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tobiah]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:01:55 -0700, greg wrote:

> So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his guitars
> are in Carolina, and we need to jam. Has anyone had any luck with that?

It would not be as rewarding, but you could always share a multi-track
project. You could lower the quality down to 16b@22K to reduce
transfer time. You put down guitar to drums, and let him download the
project and lay a track or two, then pass it off to you. You could
do several iterations in an afternoon. Now, if you had two projects
going at the same time, then you could both be busy all the time.
Just trade off every 15 minutes.

If you don't use the same software, you could use Reaper, or another
low common denominator.

Tobiah

[greg]

On Aug 28, 3:12*pm, Tobiah > wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:01:55 -0700, greg wrote:
> > So me and my guitars are in California, and my best bud and his guitars
> > are in Carolina, and we need to jam. *Has anyone had any luck with that?
>
> It would not be as rewarding, but you could always share a multi-track
> project. *You could lower the quality down to 16b@22K to reduce
> transfer time. *You put down guitar to drums, and let him download the
> project and lay a track or two, then pass it off to you. *You could
> do several iterations in an afternoon. *Now, if you had two projects
> going at the same time, then you could both be busy all the time.
> Just trade off every 15 minutes.
>
> If you don't use the same software, you could use Reaper, or another
> low common denominator.
>
> Tobiah

Tempting, thanks.