Microphone preamp advice

[[email protected]]

Hi,

I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get
interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a
couple times over the years and its been a great help. But I'm stuck
again!

Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
without speaker / mic / noise). I take that mic level signal the JDX
produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.

The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm
having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G.

The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think.
One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard /
level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a
bit to the correct level.

Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
meter in the echo console get just over half way.

If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
when its set on a normal level. So what I have to do is turn the
gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is
partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db
setting suddenly becomes audible).

I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise
becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse.
If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
prevalent. Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
half way.

Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? I'm thinking the
solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full /
normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. Which
is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost
an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, which I'm
guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job.
Does that sound good? Dont really want to start asking for advice on
what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was
thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel
preamp. I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting
something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more?

Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from
people before speaking to sales people.
Jon.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:

> Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> without speaker / mic / noise). I take that mic level signal the JDX
> produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.

> Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> meter in the echo console get just over half way.

> If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> when its set on a normal level. So what I have to do is turn the
> gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on

> I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> dynamics

There are a number of things at work here. First off, "half way up" on
a VU meter, and this is pretty much the case whether you're looking at
the analog meter on your preamp or the digital meter in your sound card
or computer program, is a perfectly good level that allows for some
headroom,
which you'll surely need.

The biggest distraction is when you look at the waveform graphic that you've
recorded. They don't scale the graphic in a very informative way, so a
recording
with occasion peaks close to full scale but mostly with 10 to 15 dB of
headroom
(a good thing) looks really skimpy. If it's quiet, turn up your playback
volume.
You can make final level adjustments when you're working on the mix. And
remember that if you're comparing your recordings to a commercial CD, you'll
never hear that much level because your work hasn't been mastered to blast
the listener.

It's perfectly OK to record 10 dB or a bit more below peak level and then
boost the level on the digital side if you need to do so. And it's even more
OK if you record in 24-bit resolution. Don't worry about "losing dynamics."
That only happens when you need to reduce the dynamic range by
squashing the peaks so that you have room to bring up the average level.
That's what makes commercial CDs sound louder than your recordings,
but it's a separate process and you shouldn't worry about it while you're
tracking your guitar parts.

> If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> prevalent.

Not really. You're attenuating the source less.

> Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
> its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> half way.

If there's a "sweet spot" it's something that you'll be able to find,
not imagine. Don't worry about anything you can't hear. But on the
other hand, turning up gains so that you can hear noise with no
input and then complaining that you can hear noise isn't very
useful either. The question is this - is your RECORDING too
noisy? I'm a little suspicious of the Behringer preamp, and I have
no idea of how much noise is coming out of your guitar amp, but
otherwise, you have good gear and you should be able to find
a good combination of settings so that one isn't all the way down
and the other all the way up.

This is where the -10/+4 switch will help you. It shifts you to a
different operating level range. You'll still need to adjust things,
but "half way up" is good.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[hank alrich]

> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get
> interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a
> couple times over the years and its been a great help. But I'm stuck
> again!
>
> Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> without speaker / mic / noise). I take that mic level signal the JDX
> produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.
>
> The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm
> having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G.
>
> The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think.
> One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard /
> level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a
> bit to the correct level.
>
> Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> meter in the echo console get just over half way.
>
> If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> when its set on a normal level. So what I have to do is turn the
> gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is
> partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db
> setting suddenly becomes audible).
>
> I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise
> becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse.
> If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> prevalent. Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
> its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> half way.
>
> Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? I'm thinking the
> solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full /
> normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. Which
> is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost
> an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, which I'm
> guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job.
> Does that sound good? Dont really want to start asking for advice on
> what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was
> thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel
> preamp. I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting
> something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more?
>
> Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from
> people before speaking to sales people.
> Jon.

Two routes here: accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24
bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the
source.

Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both
your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually
need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of
your kit.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[[email protected]]

On Aug 14, 3:48*pm, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> > speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> > can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> > without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX
> > produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> > output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.
> > Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> > on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> > meter in the echo console get just over half way.
> > If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> > round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> > when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the
> > gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> > meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on
> > I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> > usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> > loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> > dynamics
>
> There are a number of things at work here. First off, "half way up" on
> a VU meter, and this is pretty much the case whether you're looking at
> the analog meter on your preamp or the digital meter in your sound card
> or computer program, is a perfectly good level that allows for some
> headroom,
> which you'll surely need.
>
> The biggest distraction is when you look at the waveform graphic that you've
> recorded. They don't scale the graphic in a very informative way, so a
> recording
> with occasion peaks close to full scale but mostly with 10 to 15 dB of
> headroom
> (a good thing) looks really skimpy. If it's quiet, turn up your playback
> volume.
> You can make final level adjustments when you're working on the mix. And
> remember that if you're comparing your recordings to a commercial CD, you'll
> never hear that much level because your work hasn't been mastered to blast
> the listener.
>
> It's perfectly OK to record 10 dB or a bit more below peak level and then
> boost the level on the digital side if you need to do so. And it's even more
> OK if you record in 24-bit resolution. Don't worry about "losing dynamics.."
> That only happens when you need to reduce the dynamic range by
> squashing the peaks so that you have room to bring up the average level.
> That's what makes commercial CDs sound louder than your recordings,
> but it's a separate process and you shouldn't worry about it while you're
> tracking your guitar parts.
>
> > If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> > will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> > effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> > prevalent. *
>
> Not really. You're attenuating the source less.
>
> *> Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
>
> > its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> > half way.
>
> If there's a "sweet spot" it's something that you'll be able to find,
> not imagine. Don't worry about anything you can't hear. But on the
> other hand, turning up gains so that you can hear noise with no
> input and then complaining that you can hear noise isn't very
> useful either. The question is this - is your RECORDING too
> noisy? I'm a little suspicious of the Behringer preamp, and I have
> no idea of how much noise is coming out of your guitar amp, but
> otherwise, you have good gear and you should be able to find
> a good combination of settings so that one isn't all the way down
> and the other all the way up.
>
> This is where the -10/+4 switch will help you. It shifts you to a
> different operating level range. You'll still need to adjust things,
> but "half way up" is good.
>
> --
> If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
> me here:
> double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
> )

Thank you very much for you help, very informative!

Yeah the biggest source of noise in my chain is my amp, its a small 8W
half boutique valve amp and its a little hissy (I'm gonna try
replacing the tubes in it as they are a 4 years old now).

Noise is an issue in some of the things I record, if a play a clean
track which has louder + softer / gentler pieces the noise is
definitely noticeable / distracting during the gentle bits, however,
there is certainly a little more noise then I'd expect givien what I
know about my amp. I'll have another play with it tonight when I get
home from work, I've have been sorting out problems with windows +
sonar and other things (ended up reformatting my pc...) and it all
seems to be running well now. Yeah, I managed to get sonar working in
24/96. I believe I can hear a difference between 16 + 24bit but not
really the 48/96, but I seem to get less dropouts / more reliability
at 96 so that was the decider.

I think I still might look into upgrading my preamp to something
middle range in the future.

Thanks again for your help :)
Jon

[[email protected]]

On Aug 14, 4:15*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> > wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> > I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get
> > interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a
> > couple times over the years and its been a great help. *But I'm stuck
> > again!
>
> > Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> > speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> > can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> > without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX
> > produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> > output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.
>
> > The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm
> > having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G.
>
> > The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think.
> > One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard /
> > level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a
> > bit to the correct level.
>
> > Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> > on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> > meter in the echo console get just over half way.
>
> > If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> > round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> > when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the
> > gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> > meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is
> > partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db
> > setting suddenly becomes audible).
>
> > I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> > usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> > loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> > dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise
> > becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse.
> > If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> > will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> > effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> > prevalent. *Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
> > its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> > half way.
>
> > Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? *I'm thinking the
> > solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full /
> > normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. *Which
> > is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost
> > an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, *which I'm
> > guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job.
> > Does that sound good? *Dont really want to start asking for advice on
> > what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was
> > thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel
> > preamp. *I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting
> > something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more?
>
> > Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from
> > people before speaking to sales people.
> > Jon.
>
> Two routes here: accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24
> bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the
> source.
>
> Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both
> your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually
> need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of
> your kit.
>
> --
> ha
> shut up and play your guitar

Ah, glad you brought that up, that was one of the ones that caught my
eye (2 channels and simple). It leads onto a question I was going to
ask sometime, and that's about compressors. I was thinking about
buying a rack compressor to sit somewhere before my soundcard, but I
suppose recording with a little more headroom and compressing in the
DAW may be more versatile (i.e. record with too much compression =
fail). Hmmm, need to think about this one some more, but basically I
read the RNP pairs with the real nice compressor (RNC) quite well.

Thanks for the help :)

[hank alrich]

> wrote:

> On Aug 14, 4:15 pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> > > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> >
> > > I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get
> > > interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a
> > > couple times over the years and its been a great help. But I'm stuck
> > > again!
> >
> > > Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> > > speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> > > can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> > > without speaker / mic / noise). I take that mic level signal the JDX
> > > produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> > > output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.
> >
> > > The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm
> > > having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G.
> >
> > > The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think.
> > > One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard /
> > > level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a
> > > bit to the correct level.
> >
> > > Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> > > on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> > > meter in the echo console get just over half way.
> >
> > > If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> > > round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> > > when its set on a normal level. So what I have to do is turn the
> > > gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> > > meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is
> > > partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db
> > > setting suddenly becomes audible).
> >
> > > I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> > > usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> > > loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> > > dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise
> > > becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse.
> > > If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> > > will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> > > effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> > > prevalent. Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
> > > its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> > > half way.
> >
> > > Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? I'm thinking the
> > > solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full /
> > > normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. Which
> > > is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost
> > > an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, which I'm
> > > guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job.
> > > Does that sound good? Dont really want to start asking for advice on
> > > what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was
> > > thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel
> > > preamp. I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting
> > > something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more?
> >
> > > Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from
> > > people before speaking to sales people.
> > > Jon.
> >
> > Two routes here: accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24
> > bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the
> > source.
> >
> > Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both
> > your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually
> > need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of
> > your kit.
> >
> > --
> > ha
> > shut up and play your guitar
>
> Ah, glad you brought that up, that was one of the ones that caught my
> eye (2 channels and simple). It leads onto a question I was going to
> ask sometime, and that's about compressors. I was thinking about
> buying a rack compressor to sit somewhere before my soundcard, but I
> suppose recording with a little more headroom and compressing in the
> DAW may be more versatile (i.e. record with too much compression =
> fail). Hmmm, need to think about this one some more, but basically I
> read the RNP pairs with the real nice compressor (RNC) quite well.
>
> Thanks for the help :)

The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the RNC
via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC instead
of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty control for
the RNP.

It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Geoff]

hank alrich wrote:
>
> Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both
> your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually
> need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part
> of your kit.

www.music123.com have refurb EMU 0202 at $79 !

geoff

[Geoff]

hank alrich wrote:
>
> The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the
> RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC
> instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty
> control for the RNP.
>
> It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs.

On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point in
compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted by
that compressor.

geoff

[Arny Krueger]

"geoff" > wrote in message

> hank alrich wrote:
>>
>> Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which
>> will fit both your budget and your present and fufure
>> needs, even if you eventually need something upscale
>> from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of your
>> kit.
>
> www.music123.com have refurb EMU 0202 at $79 !
>

Mono mic preamp, and perhaps a little fragile.

[Steve King]

"geoff" > wrote in message
...
| hank alrich wrote:
| >
| > The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the
| > RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC
| > instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty
| > control for the RNP.
| >
| > It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs.
|
| On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point
in
| compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted
by
| that compressor.
|
| geoff

Convenience is one reason. I realize that it is most applicable for certain
kinds of program material. Voice narration is one that immediately comes to
mind. The other day I had a Chinese narrator in the studio for six hours.
Tomorrow he's back for another six hours. When we are done, we will have
recorded over 500 separate audio files. I used a little bit of compression
plus a hard limiter in the input chain. The result was a good sounding
recording at an ideal level for dropping scene-by-scene into a long video
project. It saved a lot of time. Yes, I know I could have batch processed
the files at the end of the session. Instead I chose input analogue
processing, so that I could upload the files every hour to my FTP site,
where I had two video editors downloading and dropping them into the videos.

Steve King

[hank alrich]

Steve King > wrote:

> "geoff" > wrote in message
> ...
> | hank alrich wrote:
> | >
> | > The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the
> | > RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC
> | > instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty
> | > control for the RNP.
> | >
> | > It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs.
> |
> | On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point
> in
> | compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted
> by
> | that compressor.
> |
> | geoff
>
> Convenience is one reason. I realize that it is most applicable for certain
> kinds of program material. Voice narration is one that immediately comes to
> mind. The other day I had a Chinese narrator in the studio for six hours.
> Tomorrow he's back for another six hours. When we are done, we will have
> recorded over 500 separate audio files. I used a little bit of compression
> plus a hard limiter in the input chain. The result was a good sounding
> recording at an ideal level for dropping scene-by-scene into a long video
> project. It saved a lot of time. Yes, I know I could have batch processed
> the files at the end of the session. Instead I chose input analogue
> processing, so that I could upload the files every hour to my FTP site,
> where I had two video editors downloading and dropping them into the videos.
>
> Steve King

There are plenty of practical reasons to use compression, EQ, etc., on
the way in, and sometimes plenty of sonic reasons, too.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[nebulax]

On Aug 14, 12:20*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> > wrote:
> > On Aug 14, 4:15 pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get
> > > > interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a
> > > > couple times over the years and its been a great help. *But I'm stuck
> > > > again!
>
> > > > Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head
> > > > speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load ->
> > > > can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it
> > > > without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX
> > > > produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the
> > > > output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard.
>
> > > > The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm
> > > > having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G..
>
> > > > The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think..
> > > > One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard /
> > > > level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a
> > > > bit to the correct level.
>
> > > > Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up
> > > > on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU
> > > > meter in the echo console get just over half way.
>
> > > > If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way
> > > > round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard
> > > > when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the
> > > > gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu
> > > > meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is
> > > > partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db
> > > > setting suddenly becomes audible).
>
> > > > I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not
> > > > usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it
> > > > loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its
> > > > dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise
> > > > becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse..
> > > > If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which
> > > > will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above
> > > > effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more
> > > > prevalent. *Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and
> > > > its going to be towards 3/4->full vu / normal recording level, not
> > > > half way.
>
> > > > Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? *I'm thinking the
> > > > solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full /
> > > > normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. *Which
> > > > is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost
> > > > an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, *which I'm
> > > > guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job.
> > > > Does that sound good? *Dont really want to start asking for advice on
> > > > what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was
> > > > thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel
> > > > preamp. *I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting
> > > > something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more?
>
> > > > Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from
> > > > people before speaking to sales people.
> > > > Jon.
>
> > > Two routes here: accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24
> > > bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the
> > > source.
>
> > > Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both
> > > your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually
> > > need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of
> > > your kit.
>
> > > --
> > > ha
> > > shut up and play your guitar
>
> > Ah, glad you brought that up, that was one of the ones that caught my
> > eye (2 channels and simple). *It leads onto a question I was going to
> > ask sometime, and that's about compressors. *I was thinking about
> > buying a rack compressor to sit somewhere before my soundcard, but I
> > suppose recording with a little more headroom and compressing in the
> > DAW may be more versatile (i.e. record with too much compression =
> > fail). *Hmmm, need to think about this one some more, but basically I
> > read the *RNP pairs with the real nice compressor (RNC) quite well.
>
> > Thanks for the help :)
>
> The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the RNC
> via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC instead
> of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty control for
> the RNP.
>
> It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs.
>
> --
> ha



There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the
Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare
with the RNP.

-Neb

[Richard Crowley]

"nebulax" wrote ...
> There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the
> Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare
> with the RNP.

So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations
of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique
combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others
in its price class back in the day?

Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre
be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510
or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high
performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better
than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent
price?

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley > wrote:
>"nebulax" wrote ...
>> There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the
>> Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare
>> with the RNP.
>
>So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations
>of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique
>combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others
>in its price class back in the day?

It was a decent product. The SSM2015 and SSM2016 chips were surprisingly
good. Remarkably good CMRR and low noise.

The problem is that they were built on a semicustom array, and when PMI was
bought out by AD, they had to discontinue them since they were actually being
fabricated on a competitor's semicustom line.

>Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre
>be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510
>or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high
>performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better
>than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent
>price?

Maybe. When the SSM2017 came out, it was substantially poorer-sounding
than the SSM2016 and SSM2015 chips. It hasn't improved.

The THAT 1512 sounds a whole lot better than the SSM2017, but I have not
compared it with the older generation of chips. It would be interesting to
get a Symetrix 302 (which uses the SSM2017) and drop a THAT 1512 in there
and see how it does.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill]

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "nebulax" wrote ...
>> There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the
>> Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare
>> with the RNP.
>
> So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations
> of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique
> combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others
> in its price class back in the day?
>

I have a 202SX, and it's just a relatively transparent
pre. I can't really tell it from other cheap mic pres.

It does not do the "DC to daylight" thing that, say, a
D&R console input does.

When the 202SX was current, mixer inputs weren't very
good until you got to really expensive ones. And I think
some of its heritage is as a ... uh, bootlegger's buddy
(although how on Earth you got 16VAC to one in a bootleg
rig is beyond me ).

> Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre
> be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510
> or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high
> performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better
> than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent
> price?
>
>

It really would be interesting to know how it
compares with the "good" Mackie or Behringer
XLR inputs. I'm unconvinced that it's a real
improvement over those, but ... I haven't
exactly checked.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers]

Richard Crowley wrote:

> Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre
> be designed today with contemporary chips?

Certainly it could. But most of the cost of these things is in the box,
connectors, switches, power supply, and transformers if it uses them,
until you get into something really exotic like the Gordon, which has
a whole lot of parts.

The worst thing about a new preamp based on new ICs is that they
couldn't market it as "All Class A" so people would buy some piece of
tube crap instead.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)