I'd put this up against a Harbeth.....

[Bret L]

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502


I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
curtain.

[Clyde Slick]

On 3 aug., 02:26, Bret L > wrote:
> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502
>
> *I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
> curtain.

When I go to audio salons, I always audition speakers that are
situated
behind a curtain, because that is how I will be listening
to them in my home.
Bratzi, you are a chicken **** coward, why don't
you just gouge your eyes out and be done with it!

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 2, 11:26�pm, Bret L > wrote:
> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502
>
> �I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
> curtain.

Then do it. It's typical of audio objectivists like yourself to make a
bunch of claims without doing the work.

[hophead]

In article <ed9c3d1e-fde8-4937-b1a9-
>,
says...

> When I go to audio salons, I always audition speakers that are
> situated
> behind a curtain, because that is how I will be listening
> to them in my home.

Heh, yeah that makes me laugh: Everyone (apparently even 'borgs)
auditions, purchases and listens to audio gear with it in plain view.
But certain objectivists shriek that we need to eliminate sighted bias!
I wonder if they blindfold themselves before eating at a nice
restaurant? After all, an artful presentation will certainly affect your
perception of the food by introducing sighted bias. Heaven forbit you
allow your biases to add to your enjoyment of any pursuit!

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 2, 11:26�pm, Bret L > wrote:
> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502
>
> �I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
> curtain.

Also:

Which Harbeth? There are several models. All but one are more
efficient and go deeper in the bass than the Madisound kit.

The Madison uses a aluminum woofer, so it will sound a lot less warm
than the Radial woofer.

Ribbon tweeters will also sound a lot different than the dome units in
Harbeths.

The Harbeths use a thin-walled construction for their cabinets to
excite certain resonances.

These speakers won't sound anything like each other. It's apples and
oranges. Did you just close your eyes and point to a page in the
Madison catalog? What a dumb, ignorant troll.

[Bret L]

On Aug 3, 1:27 pm, vinyl anachronist >
wrote:
> On Aug 2, 11:26 pm, Bret L > wrote:
>
> >http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502
>
> > I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
> > curtain.
>
> Also:
>
> Which Harbeth? There are several models. All but one are more
> efficient and go deeper in the bass than the Madisound kit.
>
> The Madison uses a aluminum woofer, so it will sound a lot less warm
> than the Radial woofer.
>
> Ribbon tweeters will also sound a lot different than the dome units in
> Harbeths.
>
> The Harbeths use a thin-walled construction for their cabinets to
> excite certain resonances.
>
> These speakers won't sound anything like each other. It's apples and
> oranges. Did you just close your eyes and point to a page in the
> Madison catalog? What a dumb, ignorant troll.

I never said this speaker emulates a Harbeth to a great degree. I
know what it sounds like because a co-worker bought a pair and put
them together at work while we are having a slightly slow point. I
brought in a Metcal iron and bottles of flux and cleaner for him and
one of the women had her husband finish the cabs in a nice black
cherry stain.

The last thing any sane person wants is a cabinet that is excited
easily. Heavy and well damped is always the correct idea.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 4, 12:41�am, Bret L > wrote:
> On Aug 3, 1:27 pm, vinyl anachronist >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 2, 11:26 pm, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8502
>
> > > I'd love to see a good comparison with both speakers behind a
> > > curtain.
>
> > Also:
>
> > Which Harbeth? There are several models. All but one are more
> > efficient and go deeper in the bass than the Madisound kit.
>
> > The Madison uses a aluminum woofer, so it will sound a lot less warm
> > than the Radial woofer.
>
> > Ribbon tweeters will also sound a lot different than the dome units in
> > Harbeths.
>
> > The Harbeths use a thin-walled construction for their cabinets to
> > excite certain resonances.
>
> > These speakers won't sound anything like each other. It's apples and
> > oranges. Did you just close your eyes and point to a page in the
> > Madison catalog? �What a dumb, ignorant troll.
>
> �I never said this speaker emulates a Harbeth to a great degree. I
> know what it sounds like because a co-worker bought a pair and put
> them together at work while we are having a slightly slow point. I
> brought in a Metcal iron and bottles of flux and cleaner for him and
> one of the women had her husband finish the cabs in a nice black
> cherry stain.

I don't doubt that the Madisound is a decent speaker. But your
original post said you wanted to compare them as if they were similar
designs. Other than being a stand-mounted two-way, there's nothing to
suggest that these speakers sound anything like each other. You're
just deperately trying to troll those who shot down your "bigger is
better" proclamation. I mentioned Harbeth as a great speaker, so big
bad Bret had to go out of his way to trash them. Why don't you try
listening to a pair first? Then you won't look like such an ignorant
Usenet douchebag.

>
> � The last thing any sane person wants is a cabinet that is excited
> easily.

Who said "excited easily"? These cabinets are carefully tuned to
certain resonances.

Heavy and well damped is always the correct idea.

The BBC has been using cabinets with thin-walled construction for
years with great results. I guess if they really wanted to make good
speakers they'd listen to some autistic factory worker from the
Midwest.

[Bret L]

>
> > The last thing any sane person wants is a cabinet that is excited
> > easily.
>
> Who said "excited easily"? These cabinets are carefully tuned to
> certain resonances.
>
> *Heavy and well damped is always the correct idea.
>
> The BBC has been using cabinets with thin-walled construction for
> years with great results. I guess if they really wanted to make good
> speakers they'd listen to some autistic factory worker from the
> Midwest.

The BBC was after repeatability from facility to facility, and
probably weight and cost were a factor. I agree that SOME of their
reference designs were fairly good for general listening, the problem
being getting them made to the reference design outside the BBC chain.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 4, 9:28�am, Bret L > wrote:
> > > The last thing any sane person wants is a cabinet that is excited
> > > easily.
>
> > Who said "excited easily"? These cabinets are carefully tuned to
> > certain resonances.
>
> > �Heavy and well damped is always the correct idea.
>
> > The BBC has been using cabinets with thin-walled construction for
> > years with great results. I guess if they really wanted to make good
> > speakers they'd listen to some autistic factory worker from the
> > Midwest.
>
> �The BBC was after repeatability from facility to facility, and
> probably weight and cost were a factor. I agree that SOME of their
> reference designs were fairly good for general listening, the problem
> being getting them made to the reference design outside the BBC chain.

Which is why they came up with "professional" and "consumer" versions
of most of their speakers.

This doesn't really relate to the current Harbeth line, which doesn't
necessarily reflect the classic BBC sound. These are by far the most
musically satisfying speakers that have come out of the UK IMO. The
40.1s, for example, may seem very expensive for what is basically a
big 3-way box, but I can't think of another speaker I'd rather listen
to (and I've listened to a lot of pricey speakers). I used to love
Quad ESLs until I heard the 40.1. The Compact 7-ES3 is Harbeth's
second-to-the-bottom of the line, but they're fairly amazing as well.
The only Harbeth I don't absolutely love is the HL5, and that's
because I think the supertweeter adds a little too much sizzle to the
top end.

You may hear these speakers and not like them. (In fact, I'm sure you
are too biased at this point to offer a reliable opinion.) But I've
never met anyone who has spent any time with Harbeths and didn't
really enjoy them...and that includes some of the other speaker
manufacturers out there.

[Bret L]

>
> > The BBC was after repeatability from facility to facility, and
> > probably weight and cost were a factor. I agree that SOME of their
> > reference designs were fairly good for general listening, the problem
> > being getting them made to the reference design outside the BBC chain.
>
> Which is why they came up with "professional" and "consumer" versions
> of most of their speakers.

That's very exactly what I'm opposed to, given the fact that the
consumer versions are often marketed by the BBC reference, such as
LS3/5a, when they are not evian conforming to the type Certificate, so
to speak, in the first place. The whole point of buying a speaker
having anything to do with the reference design is to have
repeatability. Do you want fidelity or just likeability? High
Likeability is easy to do-that's why single driver speakers and single
ended triodes have a market. But their fidelity sucks **** through a
straw.

One of my friends who is BIG into Sinatra has one of every type of
speaker used at the major facilities Frank cut his important records
at. He's researched it. He wants to hear it as much like they did back
then, so he has a transcription table and long arm, the old GE head
amp (for mono) that uses 6V6s for outputs, the whole nine yards. It's
like a Star Trek fan with a full bridge layout. Anal? Well, yeah.
That's the point.
>
> This doesn't really relate to the current Harbeth line, which doesn't
> necessarily reflect the classic BBC sound. These are by far the most
> musically satisfying speakers that have come out of the UK IMO. The
> 40.1s, for example, may seem very expensive for what is basically a
> big 3-way box, but I can't think of another speaker I'd rather listen
> to (and I've listened to a lot of pricey speakers). I used to love
> Quad ESLs until I heard the 40.1. The Compact 7-ES3 is Harbeth's
> second-to-the-bottom of the line, but they're fairly amazing as well.
> The only Harbeth I don't absolutely love is the HL5, and that's
> because I think the supertweeter adds a little too much sizzle to the
> top end.
>
> You may hear these speakers and not like them. (In fact, I'm sure you
> are too biased at this point to offer a reliable opinion.) But I've
> never met anyone who has spent any time with Harbeths and didn't
> really enjoy them...and that includes some of the other speaker
> manufacturers out there.

Well, I would be too biased against them if I knew what they were,
which is why I would insist on listening them against something else
without knowing what they were, to be able to say I had an honest
opinion of them. I KNOW that I have prejudice against them in
particular, because I have postjudice against very expensive (and even
many only moderately expensive) high end saloon consumer speakers. (I
also have postjudice against many pro and mid-fi products too, but at
least they don't befoul the Grace Slick Directive. (Slick famously
spent $5000 to have the engine of her prewar Roller rebuilt-at a time
you could build a Top Fuel drag engine or a R-985 P&W for that, I want
to say '69 or so-only to have it throw a rod a week later. She, being
Grace, told the shop that she didn't mind getting ****ed but did at
least like to come!)

But here's the salient point. I recognize and understand my own
biases. I deal every day with people who honestly believe they are
"not prejudiced", they are "objective". Well, no one is without biases
in every topic that genuinely interests them. But I know what mine are
and i adjust for them. I try to be honest insofar as possible about
them.

When I said I'd "put these (Madisound ribbon tweeter two ways) up
against the Harbeths", I did not say that these were indifferentiable
from them. I meant that overall they would prove an overall equally
worthy speaker. That is a testable claim, I regret I don't have the
money to buy a set of the Harbeths-they wouldn't loan me them were I
honest about my intentions, in fact they wouldn't loan ME them at all-
and demonstrate this.

My professional career in electronics mostly involved two concepts,
calibration and characterization. Calibration means to make the meter
read what the signal is known to be. Characterization means
understanding its foiles and applying compensation after the fact. We
can not calibrate our own ears, only characterize them. We can
calibrate the speakers but they are the most difficult part of the
chain to mess with.

Postjudice is another word for characterization. We may get mad at it
on high minded principles, but it is what has kept our species alive
these millennia. Not all snakes are poisonous or aggressive, but
enough are that we avoid them by instinct.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 4, 10:41�pm, Bret L > wrote:
> > > The BBC was after repeatability from facility to facility, and
> > > probably weight and cost were a factor. I agree that SOME of their
> > > reference designs were fairly good for general listening, the problem
> > > being getting them made to the reference design outside the BBC chain..
>
> > Which is why they came up with "professional" and "consumer" versions
> > of most of their speakers.
>
> �That's very exactly what I'm opposed to, given the fact that the
> consumer versions are often marketed by the BBC reference, such as
> LS3/5a, when they are not evian conforming to the type Certificate, so
> to speak, in the first place. The whole point of buying a speaker
> having anything to do with the reference design is to have
> repeatability. Do you want fidelity or just likeability? High
> Likeability is easy to do-that's why single driver speakers and single
> ended triodes have a market. But their fidelity sucks **** through a
> straw.
>
> �One of my friends who is BIG into Sinatra has one of every type of
> speaker used at the major facilities Frank cut his important records
> at. He's researched it. He wants to hear it as much like they did back
> then, so he has a transcription table and long arm, the old GE head
> amp (for mono) that uses 6V6s for outputs, the whole nine yards. It's
> like a Star Trek fan with a full bridge layout. Anal? Well, yeah.
> That's the point.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This doesn't really relate to the current Harbeth line, which doesn't
> > necessarily reflect the classic BBC sound. These are by far the most
> > musically satisfying speakers that have come out of the UK IMO. The
> > 40.1s, for example, may seem very expensive for what is basically a
> > big 3-way box, but I can't think of another speaker I'd rather listen
> > to (and I've listened to a lot of pricey speakers). I used to love
> > Quad ESLs until I heard the 40.1. The Compact 7-ES3 is Harbeth's
> > second-to-the-bottom of the line, but they're fairly amazing as well.
> > The only Harbeth I don't absolutely love is the HL5, and that's
> > because I think the supertweeter adds a little too much sizzle to the
> > top end.
>
> > You may hear these speakers and not like them. (In fact, I'm sure you
> > are too biased at this point to offer a reliable opinion.) But I've
> > never met anyone who has spent any time with Harbeths and didn't
> > really enjoy them...and that includes some of the other speaker
> > manufacturers out there.
>
> �Well, I would be too biased against them if I knew what they were,
> which is why I would insist on listening them against something else
> without knowing what they were, to be able to say I had an honest
> opinion of them. I KNOW that I have prejudice against them in
> particular, because I have postjudice against very expensive (and even
> many only moderately expensive) �high end saloon consumer speakers. (I
> also have postjudice against many pro and mid-fi products too, but at
> least they don't befoul the Grace Slick Directive. (Slick famously
> spent $5000 to have the engine of her prewar Roller rebuilt-at a time
> you could build a Top Fuel drag engine or a R-985 P&W for that, I want
> to say '69 or so-only to have it throw a rod a week later. She, being
> Grace, �told the shop that she didn't mind getting ****ed but did at
> least like to come!)
>
> �But here's the salient point. I recognize and understand my own
> biases. I deal every day with people who honestly believe they are
> "not prejudiced", they are "objective". Well, no one is without biases
> in every topic that genuinely interests them. But I know what mine are
> and i adjust for them. I try to be honest insofar as possible about
> them.
>
> �When I said I'd "put these (Madisound ribbon tweeter two ways) up
> against the Harbeths", I did not say that these were indifferentiable
> from them. I meant that overall they would prove an overall equally
> worthy speaker. That is a testable claim, I regret I don't have the
> money to buy a set of the Harbeths-they wouldn't loan me them were I
> honest about my intentions, in fact they wouldn't loan ME them at all-
> and demonstrate this.
>
> �My professional career in electronics mostly involved two concepts,
> calibration and characterization. Calibration means to make the meter
> read what the signal is known to be. Characterization means
> understanding its foiles and applying compensation after the fact. We
> can not calibrate our own ears, only characterize them. We can
> calibrate the speakers but they are the most difficult part of the
> chain to mess with.
>
> �Postjudice is another word for characterization. We may get mad at it
> on high minded principles, but it is what has kept our species alive
> these millennia. Not all snakes are poisonous or aggressive, but
> enough are that we avoid them by instinct.

If we were having this discussion in person and I got up and walked
away in the middle of it, would you follow me or would you get the
hint? Your habit of droning on and on about your narrow spectrum of
knowledge is probably why you spend more time posting off-topic
threads in an Internet vaccum than relating to real-life people.

It's simple...either the speakers have value to you or they don't.
You'll never know without listening. Anything you say that does not
address this specific point is just blubbering.