Quiet(ish) muffin amp cooling fan

[darrelld]

Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
Model 3-15-1376 fan?

Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm

At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
cooling.

I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
brands that you would recommend I am interested.

TIA

[William Sommerwerck]

Stupid suggestion...

You can find relatively quiet ball-bearing fans at computer stores. (I
replaced all the regular fans in my computer with these, and the fan noise
dropped, though not to "zero".)

The problem is that these are 5VDC fans, so you'd have to pull the power
somewhere off the amp's board, maybe with a 5V regulator. Workable, but
hardly simple.

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, darrelld > wrote:
>Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>
>Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>
>At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>cooling.
>
>I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>
>TIA

There is a 27 dB fan in there somewhere...
search............ fan 110v ac 80mm

The Orion and NMB cross references do not list
your model.

greg

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
darrelld > wrote:
>Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>
>Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>
>At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>cooling.
>
>I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>brands that you would recommend I am interested.

I'd check with Comair/Rotron and see what they have. Digi-Key will stock
their muffin fans. A call to Rotron might help too.

What's wrong with the old one? Most of those have replaceable bearings, so
if the bearings are bad you can take 'em to an industrial bearing shop and
get new ones. If it's noisy, cleaning and repacking the existing bearings
might help.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article >,
> darrelld > wrote:
>>Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>>Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>>
>>Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>>
>>At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>>rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>>cooling.
>>
>>I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>>brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>>
>>TIA
>
>There is a 27 dB fan in there somewhere...
>search............ fan 110v ac 80mm
>
>The Orion and NMB cross references do not list
>your model.


Thats gets me thinking about who I buy fans from. Well
many places. Allied has been very handy for me. They even
have their own brand. Jameco of course, but check out their new website.
Pretty cool. Frozen CPU of course. Then there is Hosfelt, Electronic Surplus, All Electronics.
A bit harder to fing 120 VAC fans in computer hobby marts.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>In article >,
>darrelld > wrote:
>>Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>>Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>>
>>Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>>
>>At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>>rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>>cooling.
>>
>>I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>>brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>
>I'd check with Comair/Rotron and see what they have. Digi-Key will stock
>their muffin fans. A call to Rotron might help too.
>
>What's wrong with the old one? Most of those have replaceable bearings, so
>if the bearings are bad you can take 'em to an industrial bearing shop and
>get new ones. If it's noisy, cleaning and repacking the existing bearings
>might help.

Just oil it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, I still have a PDP-8 fan in an amplifier I built and is being used everyday !!

greg

[Arny Krueger]

"darrelld" > wrote in message
...

> Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
> Model 3-15-1376 fan?

> Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm

> At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
> rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
> cooling.

> I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
> brands that you would recommend I am interested.

I would suggest that you google "case fans", as you'll find more different
kinds of 12 volt DC fans than you may have ever suspected existed. The fan
listings in the standard general-purpose electronics catalogs pale in
comparison.

Most of these fans will accept fewer volts, turn far slower and be quieter
without stalling.

Some even come with series thermistors, so that their speed will increase as
the temperature goes up.

You may not be able to find exactly 12 volts DC inside a power amp, but if
you can buy resistors and calculate resistance using Ohm's law... (I know
you can!) ;-)

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:41:05 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote:

>Stupid suggestion...
>
>You can find relatively quiet ball-bearing fans at computer stores. (I
>replaced all the regular fans in my computer with these, and the fan noise
>dropped, though not to "zero".)
>
>The problem is that these are 5VDC fans, so you'd have to pull the power
>somewhere off the amp's board, maybe with a 5V regulator. Workable, but
>hardly simple.
>

Computer fans are more typically 12v.

[William Sommerwerck]

> Computer fans are more typically 12V.

Thanks. I'm getting far-sighted.

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, "Soundhaspriority" > wrote:
>
>"darrelld" > wrote in message
...
>> Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>> Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>>
>> Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>>
>> At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>> rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>> cooling.
>>
>> I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>> brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>>
>> TIA
>
>Darrell,
> There have been huge advances in fans:


Like I say I got PDP-8 fans and Tektronix fans over 40 years old that still run.
I just keep replacing new type fans one after another. The smaller
the more chance it will fail.

I have put DC fans in where a 120 VAC fan would be alot
easier to connect Its a royale pain. It does have the benefit
of being easier to control fan speed. I have controlled
fan speed with a 120 VAC variable fan speed control modified
with a thermister, then there is another fail safe mechanical thermostat swich to
kick into high gear.

When searching fans, 3 1/8 inch will be the normal size that you have
and some listing will give both mm and inch sizes. Just don't forget
about the 3 1/8 inchers.

greg

[Scott Dorsey]

GregS > wrote:
>
>Like I say I got PDP-8 fans and Tektronix fans over 40 years old that still run.
>I just keep replacing new type fans one after another. The smaller
>the more chance it will fail.

You can buy the old-style fans from several supplies, including Rotron. They
are far more expensive than the new plastic ones. However, they just run
and run, and if they stop running they are repairable.

>I have put DC fans in where a 120 VAC fan would be alot
>easier to connect Its a royale pain. It does have the benefit
>of being easier to control fan speed. I have controlled
>fan speed with a 120 VAC variable fan speed control modified
>with a thermister, then there is another fail safe mechanical thermostat swich to
>kick into high gear.

Yes, doing speed control with the AC fans tends to make them noisier while
slowing down DC fans will quiet them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

A quick general comment...

The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, "Soundhaspriority" > wrote:
>
>"GregS" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote:
>>>
>>>"darrelld" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
>>>> Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>>>>
>>>> Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>>>>
>>>> At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
>>>> rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
>>>> cooling.
>>>>
>>>> I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
>>>> brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>
>>>Darrell,
>>> There have been huge advances in fans:
>>
>>
>> Like I say I got PDP-8 fans and Tektronix fans over 40 years old that
>> still run.
>> I just keep replacing new type fans one after another. The smaller
>> the more chance it will fail.
>>
>Greg,
> I have had some of the new FDB fans running continuously for five
>years. Not a single failure. And the noise level doesn't go up!
>
>Bob Morein
>(310) 237-6511

Thanks for the info. Kind of funny, my home computer hums, buzzes, and grinds.
When it starts running slow or funny I have to oil one fan. I'm trying to remember to
fix that. Also time for another machine.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, "William Sommerwerck" > wrote:
>A quick general comment...
>
>The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
>cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".

As a general rule, that is not true. My bathrooom fan just takes warm
moist air out from the ceiling and does not care about circulating air.

I got smart, and took that old fan out that goes raw raw raw raw,
and replaced it with an inline fan in the attic. Now it just goes shhhhhhhhhh.


greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article >, "William Sommerwerck"
> > wrote:
>>A quick general comment...
>>
>>The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
>>cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".
>
>As a general rule, that is not true. My bathrooom fan just takes warm
>moist air out from the ceiling and does not care about circulating air.
>
>I got smart, and took that old fan out that goes raw raw raw raw,
>and replaced it with an inline fan in the attic. Now it just goes shhhhhhhhhh.

I also need a secondary whole house attic fan. Even on slow, it
sounds like there is a single engine plane in the house.

Panasonic seems to the only company that makes good
exaust fans for the home. I would like their 300 cfm
exaust fan so I don't have to TURN ON THAT AIRPLANE.

greg

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:42:45 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote:

>A quick general comment...
>
>The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
>cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".
>

The purpose of the fan is to pump air. Dead spots are the
responsibility of component layout and case design.

[William Sommerwerck]

>> The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to
>> be cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".

> As a general rule, that is not true. My bathrooom fan just takes warm
> moist air out from the ceiling and does not care about circulating air.

Your bathroom is not a piece of electronic equipment.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:42:45 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
> > wrote:
>
> >A quick general comment...
> >
> >The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
> >cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".

> The purpose of the fan is to pump air.

Or to pull it.


> Dead spots are the
> responsibility of component layout and case design.

True, broadly speaking. But if the layout choices are limited, the fan
positions might have to be adjusted.

Many years ago I read a design document from the people who made Muffin fans
(I think). The paper was emphatic about the point that the volume of air
moved was not as important as making sure there weren't any dead spots.

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:26:52 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote:

>> The purpose of the fan is to pump air.
>
>Or to pull it.

Again, whether the fan is considered to be pulling or pushing is a
function of the case design.


>
>> Dead spots are the
>> responsibility of component layout and case design.
>
>True, broadly speaking. But if the layout choices are limited, the fan
>positions might have to be adjusted.

Case design again :-)

>
>Many years ago I read a design document from the people who made Muffin fans
>(I think). The paper was emphatic about the point that the volume of air
>moved was not as important as making sure there weren't any dead spots.

[Eeyore[_3_]]

darrelld wrote:

> Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
> Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>
> Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
>
> At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
> rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
> cooling.
>
> I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
> brands that you would recommend I am interested.

AC fans IME are always noisier relative to airflow than DC ones and use
more power.

If you tap into the DC, your best bet may be a thermistor controlled (
integral ) DC fan.

What's the amp ?


Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address

[Eeyore[_3_]]

GregS wrote:

> (GregS) wrote:
>
> Thats gets me thinking about who I buy fans from. Well
> many places. Allied has been very handy for me. They even
> have their own brand. Jameco of course, but check out their new website.
> Pretty cool. Frozen CPU of course. Then there is Hosfelt, Electronic Surplus, All Electronics.
> A bit harder to fing 120 VAC fans in computer hobby marts.

I have had best experience with NMB. They bought the 'Muffin' brand way back. They often do as
many as 6 variants in the same size frame with different rpm and dB.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to my email address

[Eeyore[_3_]]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> "darrelld" > wrote in message
>
> > Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
> > Model 3-15-1376 fan?
> >
> > Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz .11/.10 A 9/7 W 80mm x 80mm
> >
> > At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
> > rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
> > cooling.
> >
> > I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
> > brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>
> Darrell,
> There have been huge advances in fans:
>
> 1. Fan blades designed with latest hydrodynamic simulations, which actually
> move more air at a lower rpm. One can no longer estimate FPM from RPM.
> 2. Fluid hydrodynamic bearings, related to sleeve bearing, but last much
> longer than ball, and have better shock resistance.
>
> These advanced fans are used a lot by computer enthusiasts. They are
> mechanically compatible with what you have. However, they are 12VDC devices.
> If you would consider supplying DC, you would be rewarded with a fan quieter
> than you ever considered possible.
>
> The major suppliers of these fans are Scythe and Silenx:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=40000573%201372726528&Description=scythe%20fans&name=80mm
>
> http://www.silenx.com/index.asp

I haven't come across them personally but my PC could benefit from one ! Just to find which fan it is now that's just
gone noisy. CPU, GPU, chipset or PSU.


> With a 1000 rpm 80mm fan from one of these manufacturers, you can match or
> exceed the airflow of what you have, yet it will be close to the threshold
> of audibility at a foot.

All good advice.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to my email address

[Eeyore[_3_]]

GregS wrote:

> When searching fans, 3 1/8 inch will be the normal size that you have
> and some listing will give both mm and inch sizes. Just don't forget
> about the 3 1/8 inchers.

The mm sizes are actually the reference size.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to my email address

[Eeyore[_3_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> A quick general comment...
>
> The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
> cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".

And to create a pressure differential. The turbulence is mainly caused by
the heatsink design and placement. I've atonished people about how heatsinks
using less material can actually outperform ones using more if you use
turbulent flow techniques.

Place a fan 'back-to-front' and you may get a radically different airflow
too. I fixed someone's design that way once.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment
to my email address

[Eeyore[_3_]]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote:
>
> >A quick general comment...
> >
> >The purpose of a fan is not so much to move air through the device to be
> >cooled, but to create a turbulent air flow free from "dead spots".
>
> The purpose of the fan is to pump air. Dead spots are the
> responsibility of component layout and case design.

And heatsink design.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment
to my email address

[William Sommerwerck]

>> The purpose of the fan is to pump air. Dead spots are the
>> responsibility of component layout and case design.

> And heatsink design.

"Don't forget the heatsinks!" -- Julia Child

[William Sommerwerck]

> I have constructed several PCs that are silent, practically speaking,
> even though the cases are not sealed. The only expensive part of the
> deal is the power supply. I have a supply here that goes to the lengths
> of a submarine to silence; not only is the fan one of the newer types,
> but the blades are dimpled, which is alleged to further silence the flow.

Not implausible. Golf balls are dimpled to reduce drag.

However, I suspect the reduction in noise is accompanied by a reduction in
air flow, as the blades "drag" less air.

[darrelld]

On Jul 31, 9:15*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> In article >,
>
> darrelld > wrote:
> >Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
> >Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>
> >Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz * .11/.10 A * *9/7 W *80mm x 80mm
>
> >At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
> >rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
> >cooling.
>
> >I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
> >brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>
> I'd check with Comair/Rotron and see what they have. *Digi-Key will stock
> their muffin fans. *A call to Rotron might help too.
>
> What's wrong with the old one? *Most of those have replaceable bearings, so
> if the bearings are bad you can take 'em to an industrial bearing shop and
> get new ones. *If it's noisy, cleaning and repacking the existing bearings
> might help.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

For lack of a better term it was "rattling" slightly. Not the whine of
bad bearing but as if something had gone slightly out of round. After
my "expert" cleaning and lube, it makes just a little more noise. At
first I thought (hoped) that the fan's mounting to the amp was loose,
but that was not the case. I decided that at about $15 to replace it,
I would go that route.

[darrelld]

On Jul 31, 9:20*am, (GregS) wrote:
> In article >, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >In article >,
> >darrelld > wrote:
> >>Anyone know of a source for a replacement fan for a Howard Industries
> >>Model 3-15-1376 fan?
>
> >>Specs: 115 V 50/60 Hz * .11/.10 A * *9/7 W *80mm x 80mm
>
> >>At 1376 RPM, the emphasis would be on quiet operation in a studio
> >>rather than moving vast amounts of air. Application is amp-mounted
> >>cooling.
>
> >>I have Googled all over without finding this model. If you have other
> >>brands that you would recommend I am interested.
>
> >I'd check with Comair/Rotron and see what they have. *Digi-Key will stock
> >their muffin fans. *A call to Rotron might help too.
>
> >What's wrong with the old one? *Most of those have replaceable bearings, so
> >if the bearings are bad you can take 'em to an industrial bearing shop and
> >get new ones. *If it's noisy, cleaning and repacking the existing bearings
> >might help.
>
> Just oil it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> You know, I still have a PDP-8 fan in an amplifier I built and is being used everyday !!
>
> greg- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As I noted in a reply to Scott, under my expert care I have made the
fan a bit noisier. So it goes.