Speakers

[Jenn[_2_]]

(So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
disaster that is my workplace...)

I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
store, which I hadn't done in some time. I took a long listen to the
ProAc D5 speakers. I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
many years, and I've never owned any. I must say that I was REALLY
impressed with these little guys. Fine imaging as expected, but what
really impressed was the tonal balance. These dudes had real bass. Not
fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. I had to make
sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.

Very impressive.

[hophead]

In article -
september.org>, says...
>
> (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> disaster that is my workplace...)

Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
situations these days.

> I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> store, which I hadn't done in some time. I took a long listen to the
> ProAc D5 speakers. I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> many years, and I've never owned any. I must say that I was REALLY
> impressed with these little guys. Fine imaging as expected, but what
> really impressed was the tonal balance. These dudes had real bass. Not
> fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. I had to make
> sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> Very impressive.

Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have had
the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with the
bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in the
same room.

Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
>,
ScottW2 > wrote:

> On Jul 29, 7:37*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > disaster that is my workplace...)
> >
> > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > store, which I hadn't done in some time. *I took a long listen to the
> > ProAc D5 speakers. *I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > many years, and I've never owned any. *I must say that I was REALLY
> > impressed with these little guys. *Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > really impressed was the tonal balance. *These dudes had real bass. *Not
> > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. *I had to make
> > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> I don't see a D5 in ProAcs line.
>
> http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/index.php

Correction: D1

>
> I've long said bookshelves can compete with the best, especially when
> mated with a sub. The only thing they will fall short on is peak spl
> with limited power handling ability and modest efficiency.
> You can usually improve that with the addition of a sub.
>
> ProAcs performance specs are disgustingly incomplete. Makes one
> wonder if they need a license to ship **** with specs like that.
>
> >
> > Very impressive.
>
> How much were they?

About $2200.

I just played their demo CD (jazz trio led by bassist Brian Bromberg, on
Impulse (distributed out of Grosse Point, MI) on my system including the
Vandersteens. Also very fine. Probably equal (as well as one can tell)
except the extreme highs, which could be accounted for by my carpeted
floor vs. their hardwood.

>
> ScottW

[Clyde Slick]

On 29 iul., 22:37, Jenn > wrote:
> (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> store, which I hadn't done in some time. *I took a long listen to the
> ProAc D5 speakers. *I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> many years, and I've never owned any. *I must say that I was REALLY
> impressed with these little guys. *Fine imaging as expected, but what
> really impressed was the tonal balance. *These dudes had real bass. *Not
> fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. *I had to make
> sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> Very impressive.

Does the salon accept California IOU's??

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article >,
hophead > wrote:

> In article -
> september.org>, says...
> >
> > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> situations these days.

Yeah, bad times.

>
> > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > store, which I hadn't done in some time. I took a long listen to the
> > ProAc D5 speakers. I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > many years, and I've never owned any. I must say that I was REALLY
> > impressed with these little guys. Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > really impressed was the tonal balance. These dudes had real bass. Not
> > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. I had to make
> > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
> >
> > Very impressive.
>
> Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have had
> the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with the
> bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in the
> same room.
>
> Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?

Stereotypes

Nice to read you again.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
>,
Clyde Slick > wrote:

> On 29 iul., 22:37, Jenn > wrote:
> > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > disaster that is my workplace...)
> >
> > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > store, which I hadn't done in some time. *I took a long listen to the
> > ProAc D5 speakers. *I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > many years, and I've never owned any. *I must say that I was REALLY
> > impressed with these little guys. *Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > really impressed was the tonal balance. *These dudes had real bass. *Not
> > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. *I had to make
> > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
> >
> > Very impressive.
>
> Does the salon accept California IOU's??

lol We're done with those.

[Clyde Slick]

On 29 iul., 23:20, ScottW2 > wrote:


>
> ProAcs performance specs are disgustingly incomplete. * Makes one
> wonder if they need a license to ship **** with specs like that.

It's very difficult to form your subjective
bias, if you don't have complete specs to read before listening to the
speakers.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
>,
ScottW2 > wrote:

> On Jul 29, 8:48*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *ScottW2 > wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 7:37*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
> >
> > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. *I took a long listen to the
> > > > ProAc D5 speakers. *I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers
> > > > in
> > > > many years, and I've never owned any. *I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > impressed with these little guys. *Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. *These dudes had real bass.
> > > > *Not
> > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. *I had to make
> > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
> >
> > > *I don't see a D5 in ProAcs line.
> >
> > >http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/index.php
> >
> > Correction: *D1
> >
> >
> >
> > > *I've long said bookshelves can compete with the best, especially when
> > > mated with a sub. *The only thing they will fall short on is peak spl
> > > with limited power handling ability and modest efficiency.
> > > You can usually improve that with the addition of a sub.
> >
> > > ProAcs performance specs are disgustingly incomplete. * Makes one
> > > wonder if they need a license to ship **** with specs like that.
> >
> > > > Very impressive.
> >
> > > *How much were they?
> >
> > About $2200.
>
> Ouch. Last I looked some of the little Spendors were less than that
> and I thought they sounded great.

I think that all of the little Spendors that I know of are of the LSC-5A
size and therefore truly need a sub.

>
> or if you really want to save some cash..
>
> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_402_408&products
> _id=8306
>
> ScottW

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 29, 8:49�pm, Jenn > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> �hophead > wrote:
> > In article -
> > september.org>, says...
>
> > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > > disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> > Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> > work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> > situations these days.
>
> Yeah, bad times.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. �I took a long listen to the
> > > ProAc D5 speakers. �I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > > many years, and I've never owned any. �I must say that I was REALLY
> > > impressed with these little guys. �Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > > really impressed was the tonal balance. �These dudes had real bass. �Not
> > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. �I had to make
> > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> > > Very impressive.
>
> > Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have had
> > the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with the
> > bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> > there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in the
> > same room.
>
> > Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?
>
> Stereotypes

I know the owner Terry (or Teri or Terri). Nice store. I'm very fond
of the ProAc Response D 2s myself and have come close to buying a pair
once or twice.

[Bret L]

The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
There is no replacement for displacement.

And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 29, 11:00*pm, ScottW2 > wrote:

> *These doofs

LoL.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> On Jul 29, 8:49?pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > ?hophead > wrote:
> > > In article -
> > > september.org>, says...
> >
> > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
> >
> > > Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> > > work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> > > situations these days.
> >
> > Yeah, bad times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. ?I took a long listen to the
> > > > ProAc D5 speakers. ?I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > > > many years, and I've never owned any. ?I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > impressed with these little guys. ?Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. ?These dudes had real bass. ?Not
> > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. ?I had to make
> > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
> >
> > > > Very impressive.
> >
> > > Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have had
> > > the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with the
> > > bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> > > there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in the
> > > same room.
> >
> > > Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?
> >
> > Stereotypes
>
> I know the owner Terry (or Teri or Terri). Nice store. I'm very fond
> of the ProAc Response D 2s myself and have come close to buying a pair
> once or twice.

Yeah, nice lady; she's who helped me. It turned out that we're mutual
friends with the wonderful conductor Apo Hsu. Teri and her partner used
to socialize with Apo and hers when they lived in Portland. It was fun
to swap stories about her, a great lady and wonderful musician. The
store has neat listening spaces over there on SE Morrison, just blocks
away from Music Millenium, which of course I had to visit. I still
think that it's the best remaining CD store that I've seen on the west
coast.

Oh shoot! You're in the area, right? I should have been on contact
with you. I was at a guitar thing for a week at Lewis & Clark. The
three hour getaway to the stereo store, Powell's, and MM was the only
away time from L&C for the whole week. Very intense. But it would have
been great to meet you.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

Shhhh! said:

> > *These doofs
>
> LoL.

Scotties clown's am shouting .... again.

[Clyde Slick]

On 30 iul., 12:29, ScottW2 > wrote:
> On Jul 29, 10:16*pm, Jenn > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
>
> > *ScottW2 > wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 8:48*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
>
> > > > *ScottW2 > wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 29, 7:37*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > > > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> > > > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > > > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. *I took a long listen to the
> > > > > > ProAc D5 speakers. *I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > many years, and I've never owned any. *I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > > > impressed with these little guys. *Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > > > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. *These dudes had real bass.
> > > > > > *Not
> > > > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. *I had to make
> > > > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> > > > > *I don't see a D5 in ProAcs line.
>
> > > > >http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/index.php
>
> > > > Correction: *D1
>
> > > > > *I've long said bookshelves can compete with the best, especially when
> > > > > mated with a sub. *The only thing they will fall short on is peak spl
> > > > > with limited power handling ability and modest efficiency.
> > > > > You can usually improve that with the addition of a sub.
>
> > > > > ProAcs performance specs are disgustingly incomplete. * Makes one
> > > > > wonder if they need a license to ship **** with specs like that.
>
> > > > > > Very impressive.
>
> > > > > *How much were they?
>
> > > > About $2200.
>
> > > *Ouch. *Last I looked some of the little Spendors were less than that
> > > and I thought they sounded great.
>
> > I think that all of the little Spendors that I know of are of the LSC-5A
> > size and therefore truly need a sub.
>
> * Well, lets say they benefit more. *But the package I heard with a
> Hsu VTF-2 was a bit less cost than your ProAcs and I suspect it would
> have more peak SPL ability and dynamic range as the woofer
> displacement is often the limiting factor.
>
> ScottW-

After putting up with Quads for so long, Scott wants to feel
some wind on his face.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 30, 1:58*pm, George M. Middius >
wrote:
> Shhhh! said:
>
> > > *These doofs
>
> > LoL.
>
> Scotties clown's am shouting .... again.

Poor 2pid, resorting to insulting his extended family...again.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 7:43�am, Jenn > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 8:49?pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > In article >,
>
> > > ?hophead > wrote:
> > > > In article -
> > > > september.org>, says...
>
> > > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from the
> > > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> > > > Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> > > > work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> > > > situations these days.
>
> > > Yeah, bad times.
>
> > > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end audio
> > > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. ?I took a long listen to the
> > > > > ProAc D5 speakers. ?I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted speakers in
> > > > > many years, and I've never owned any. ?I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > > impressed with these little guys. ?Fine imaging as expected, but what
> > > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. ?These dudes had real bass. ?Not
> > > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. ?I had to make
> > > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> > > > > Very impressive.
>
> > > > Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have had
> > > > the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with the
> > > > bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> > > > there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in the
> > > > same room.
>
> > > > Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?
>
> > > Stereotypes
>
> > I know the owner Terry (or Teri or Terri). Nice store. I'm very fond
> > of the ProAc Response D 2s myself and have come close to buying a pair
> > once or twice.
>
> Yeah, nice lady; she's who helped me. �It turned out that we're mutual
> friends with the wonderful conductor Apo Hsu. �Teri and her partner used
> to socialize with Apo and hers when they lived in Portland. �It was fun
> to swap stories about her, a great lady and wonderful musician. �The
> store has neat listening spaces over there on SE Morrison, just blocks
> away from Music Millenium, which of course I had to visit. �I still
> think that it's the best remaining CD store that I've seen on the west
> coast.
>
> Oh shoot! �You're in the area, right? �I should have been on contact
> with you. �I was at a guitar thing for a week at Lewis & Clark. �The
> three hour getaway to the stereo store, Powell's, and MM was the only
> away time from L&C for the whole week. �Very intense. �But it would have
> been great to meet you.

Yep...I'm still here. I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.

I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 1:57�am, Bret L > wrote:
> �The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
> etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
> high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
> but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
> expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
> There is no replacement for displacement.
>
> �And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.

Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.

Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
you in mind.

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.
>
> I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.

Welcome! It's cooler and rainier here today. When you leave Austin,
you'll stock up on Waterloo tees.

Stephen

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 4:04�pm, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> > month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> > a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.
>
> > I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.
>
> Welcome! It's cooler and rainier here today. When you leave Austin,
> you'll stock up on Waterloo tees.

I'm leaving already? Boy, Arny and CISG will have a field day with
that.

What's Waterloo?

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> On Jul 30, 7:43?am, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 29, 8:49?pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > In article >,
> >
> > > > ?hophead > wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > -
> > > > > september.org>, says...
> >
> > > > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
> >
> > > > > Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> > > > > work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> > > > > situations these days.
> >
> > > > Yeah, bad times.
> >
> > > > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end
> > > > > > audio
> > > > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. ?I took a long listen to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > ProAc D5 speakers. ?I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted
> > > > > > speakers in
> > > > > > many years, and I've never owned any. ?I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > > > impressed with these little guys. ?Fine imaging as expected, but
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. ?These dudes had real bass.
> > > > > > ?Not
> > > > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. ?I had to
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
> >
> > > > > > Very impressive.
> >
> > > > > Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have
> > > > > had
> > > > > the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with
> > > > > the
> > > > > bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> > > > > there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in
> > > > > the
> > > > > same room.
> >
> > > > > Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?
> >
> > > > Stereotypes
> >
> > > I know the owner Terry (or Teri or Terri). Nice store. I'm very fond
> > > of the ProAc Response D 2s myself and have come close to buying a pair
> > > once or twice.
> >
> > Yeah, nice lady; she's who helped me. ?It turned out that we're mutual
> > friends with the wonderful conductor Apo Hsu. ?Teri and her partner used
> > to socialize with Apo and hers when they lived in Portland. ?It was fun
> > to swap stories about her, a great lady and wonderful musician. ?The
> > store has neat listening spaces over there on SE Morrison, just blocks
> > away from Music Millenium, which of course I had to visit. ?I still
> > think that it's the best remaining CD store that I've seen on the west
> > coast.
> >
> > Oh shoot! ?You're in the area, right? ?I should have been on contact
> > with you. ?I was at a guitar thing for a week at Lewis & Clark. ?The
> > three hour getaway to the stereo store, Powell's, and MM was the only
> > away time from L&C for the whole week. ?Very intense. ?But it would have
> > been great to meet you.
>
> Yep...I'm still here. I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.
>
> I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.

Good luck to you! I get to go there once in awhile. Maybe we could
meet up with Stephen!

It's probably cooler in Austin right now than in Portland!

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> On Jul 30, 4:04?pm, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
> >
> > > I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> > > month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> > > a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.
> >
> > > I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.
> >
> > Welcome! It's cooler and rainier here today. When you leave Austin,
> > you'll stock up on Waterloo tees.
>
> I'm leaving already? Boy, Arny and CISG will have a field day with
> that.
>
> What's Waterloo?

Waterloo Records, a great independent music retailer: cds, lps, etc.
Across the street from Book People, a good local bookstore, and Whole
Foods. Waterloo was there first!

The city was named Waterloo before it was renamed after Stephen F.
Austin.

Stephen

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

vinyl anachronist said:

> > ?And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.
>
> Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.
>
> Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
> work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
> lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
> you in mind.

I'm surprised to see you dissing Brattie for wanting bigness. Have you fitted
a barn for human habitation? Brattie has. Condos and 3BR/2BA+garage
cookie-cutter houses are not meant for Den Ubermenschen.

[Bret L]

On Jul 30, 5:41*pm, vinyl anachronist >
wrote:
> On Jul 30, 1:57 am, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
> > etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
> > high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
> > but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
> > expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
> > There is no replacement for displacement.
>
> > And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.
>
> Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.
>
> Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
> work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
> lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
> you in mind.

Oh, I quite agree small speakers are a good thing in a lot of
situations, but the expensive ones are only a very tiny bit better if
indeed at all from the modestly priced ones. The old homebrews made
from David Weems plans out of a baloney-sliced flue tile I got from a
friend when he moved are as good as some of what the local saloons had
for $2-3K, better in some ways. I'm saying don't spend a lot for small
two way speakers. Anything over four or five hundred bucks, or so, is
flushed down the crapper with most of these little guys. Unless you
are buying some specific active monitor for calibration purposes, like
the Genelecs, if you work for a company that has work product on them
and you want accurate simulation. Otherwise, stick with modest priced
ones.

Subs and satellites are fine but they are not a replacement for a
pair of big 12" or 15" woofers. If you have the space and the suitable
room and want natural dynamics get the serious gear. "There is no
replacement for displacement".

It's very chic to ignore that what with full size trendy chic cars
with 3 liter (183 cid) engines...the laws of physics don't change.

[Clyde Slick]

On 30 iul., 19:13, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 4:04?pm, MiNe 109 * > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > > > I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> > > > month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> > > > a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter..
>
> > > > I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.
>
> > > Welcome! It's cooler and rainier here today. When you leave Austin,
> > > you'll stock up on Waterloo tees.
>
> > I'm leaving already? Boy, Arny and CISG will have a field day with
> > that.
>
> > What's Waterloo?
>
> Waterloo Records, a great independent music retailer: cds, lps, etc.
> Across the street from Book People, a good local bookstore, and Whole
> Foods. Waterloo was there first!
>
> The city was named Waterloo before it was renamed after Stephen F.
> Austin.
>

Iowa already has a Waterloo, one is enough

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 4:13�pm, Jenn > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 7:43?am, Jenn > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 29, 8:49?pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > > In article >,
>
> > > > > ?hophead > wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > september.org>, says...
>
> > > > > > > (So, I'm returning briefly to say howdy and to distract myself from
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > disaster that is my workplace...)
>
> > > > > > Well hello and welcome back! Sorry to hear that things are a mess at
> > > > > > work. I think a lot of people are facing some pretty difficult
> > > > > > situations these days.
>
> > > > > Yeah, bad times.
>
> > > > > > > I was in Portland last week and I visited a very nice high-end
> > > > > > > audio
> > > > > > > store, which I hadn't done in some time. ?I took a long listen to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > ProAc D5 speakers. ?I hadn't listened to small stand-mounted
> > > > > > > speakers in
> > > > > > > many years, and I've never owned any. ?I must say that I was REALLY
> > > > > > > impressed with these little guys. ?Fine imaging as expected, but
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > really impressed was the tonal balance. ?These dudes had real bass.
> > > > > > > ?Not
> > > > > > > fake thump kind of bass, but genuine bass frequencies. ?I had to
> > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > sure that there wasn't a sub in the room.
>
> > > > > > > Very impressive.
>
> > > > > > Cool - Thanks for the report! I haven't heard these guys, but I have
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > the experience of listening to stand mounts that surprised me with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > bass they produced. Although sometimes you don't realize what isn't
> > > > > > there until you listen to a larger speaker with the same material in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > same room.
>
> > > > > > Do you remember which Hi-Fi shop you were in?
>
> > > > > Stereotypes
>
> > > > I know the owner Terry (or Teri or Terri). Nice store. I'm very fond
> > > > of the ProAc Response D 2s myself and have come close to buying a pair
> > > > once or twice.
>
> > > Yeah, nice lady; she's who helped me. ?It turned out that we're mutual
> > > friends with the wonderful conductor Apo Hsu. ?Teri and her partner used
> > > to socialize with Apo and hers when they lived in Portland. ?It was fun
> > > to swap stories about her, a great lady and wonderful musician. ?The
> > > store has neat listening spaces over there on SE Morrison, just blocks
> > > away from Music Millenium, which of course I had to visit. ?I still
> > > think that it's the best remaining CD store that I've seen on the west
> > > coast.
>
> > > Oh shoot! ?You're in the area, right? ?I should have been on contact
> > > with you. ?I was at a guitar thing for a week at Lewis & Clark. ?The
> > > three hour getaway to the stereo store, Powell's, and MM was the only
> > > away time from L&C for the whole week. ?Very intense. ?But it would have
> > > been great to meet you.
>
> > Yep...I'm still here. I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> > month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> > a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter.
>
> > I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.
>
> Good luck to you! �I get to go there once in awhile. �Maybe we could
> meet up with Stephen!

That sounds great!
>
> It's probably cooler in Austin right now than in Portland!

It was only 99 today. I almost had to fetch a sweater.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 4:13�pm, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 4:04?pm, MiNe 109 � > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > > > I'll be moving to Austin at the end of next
> > > > month. I'll miss Powell's and Music Millenium, but I'm sure Austin has
> > > > a close approximation. It's like the Portland of Texas, only hotter..
>
> > > > I am stocking up on T-shirts from MM before I go.
>
> > > Welcome! It's cooler and rainier here today. When you leave Austin,
> > > you'll stock up on Waterloo tees.
>
> > I'm leaving already? Boy, Arny and CISG will have a field day with
> > that.
>
> > What's Waterloo?
>
> Waterloo Records, a great independent music retailer: cds, lps, etc.
> Across the street from Book People, a good local bookstore, and Whole
> Foods. Waterloo was there first!

Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
me.

Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 5:14�pm, Bret L > wrote:
> On Jul 30, 5:41�pm, vinyl anachronist >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 1:57 am, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > > The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
> > > etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
> > > high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
> > > but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
> > > expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
> > > There is no replacement for displacement.
>
> > > And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.
>
> > Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.
>
> > Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
> > work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
> > lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
> > you in mind.
>
> �Oh, I quite agree small speakers are a good thing in a lot of
> situations, but the expensive ones are only a very tiny bit better if
> indeed at all from the modestly priced ones. The old homebrews made
> from David Weems plans out of a baloney-sliced flue tile I got from a
> friend when he moved are as good as some of what the local saloons had
> for $2-3K, better in some ways. I'm saying don't spend a lot for small
> two way speakers. Anything over four or five hundred bucks, or so, is
> flushed down the crapper with most of these little guys. Unless you
> are buying some specific active monitor for calibration purposes, like
> the Genelecs, if you work for a company that has work product on them
> and you want accurate simulation. Otherwise, stick with modest priced
> ones.
>
> �Subs and satellites are fine but they are not a replacement for a
> pair of big 12" or 15" woofers. If you have the space and the suitable
> room and want natural dynamics get the serious gear. "There is no
> replacement for displacement".

I do not like subwoofers. I've always opted for full-range speakers.

>
> �It's very chic to ignore that what with full size trendy chic cars
> with 3 liter (183 cid) engines...the laws of physics don't change.

My car has a 2.0 liter engine, has 272 hp, goes from 0-60 in under 5
and does the quarter mile in 13. I've beaten many V-8s.

It's not all about bass extension and SPLs. I could easily spend the
rest of my life with a pair of Harbeth Monitor 30s, and they're 18" x
11" x 11". Same with ProAc Response D 2s and WLM La Scala monitors.

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> > > What's Waterloo?
> >
> > Waterloo Records, a great independent music retailer: cds, lps, etc.
> > Across the street from Book People, a good local bookstore, and Whole
> > Foods. Waterloo was there first!
>
> Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> me.
>
> Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?

Mrs. Johnson's. Or you can switch to cupcakes sold from a trailer.

Stephen

[Bret L]

On Jul 30, 9:11 pm, vinyl anachronist >
wrote:
> On Jul 30, 5:14 pm, Bret L > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 5:41 pm, vinyl anachronist >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 30, 1:57 am, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > > > The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
> > > > etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
> > > > high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
> > > > but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
> > > > expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
> > > > There is no replacement for displacement.
>
> > > > And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.
>
> > > Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.
>
> > > Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
> > > work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
> > > lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
> > > you in mind.
>
> > Oh, I quite agree small speakers are a good thing in a lot of
> > situations, but the expensive ones are only a very tiny bit better if
> > indeed at all from the modestly priced ones. The old homebrews made
> > from David Weems plans out of a baloney-sliced flue tile I got from a
> > friend when he moved are as good as some of what the local saloons had
> > for $2-3K, better in some ways. I'm saying don't spend a lot for small
> > two way speakers. Anything over four or five hundred bucks, or so, is
> > flushed down the crapper with most of these little guys. Unless you
> > are buying some specific active monitor for calibration purposes, like
> > the Genelecs, if you work for a company that has work product on them
> > and you want accurate simulation. Otherwise, stick with modest priced
> > ones.
>
> > Subs and satellites are fine but they are not a replacement for a
> > pair of big 12" or 15" woofers. If you have the space and the suitable
> > room and want natural dynamics get the serious gear. "There is no
> > replacement for displacement".
>
> I do not like subwoofers. I've always opted for full-range speakers.
>
>
>
> > It's very chic to ignore that what with full size trendy chic cars
> > with 3 liter (183 cid) engines...the laws of physics don't change.
>
> My car has a 2.0 liter engine, has 272 hp, goes from 0-60 in under 5
> and does the quarter mile in 13. I've beaten many V-8s.

Yeah, but it's a small car, and that 2 liter engine is not going to
pull a trailer nor would it last running continuously at 270 hp. In
car service it doesn't have to. I don't have a car I'd drag now but
the engine i'm driving behind in the right chassis would run 9s. If
you are going to drag a car with CV joints you are going to get awful
tired of changing CV joints, even after spending a fortune to have
them upgraded to Porsche 930 units like all the other two liter fart
can warriors. I love my old tech pushrod V8s with $29 alternators and
water pumps and nice roomy back seats and trunks and full size spares.

I'm thinking of buying an old type 1 Volkswagen (a Bug,the real one)
just for going to work, or another old diesel Benz. Just for a little
variety. Then again I might not.
>
> It's not all about bass extension and SPLs. I could easily spend the
> rest of my life with a pair of Harbeth Monitor 30s, and they're 18" x
> 11" x 11". Same with ProAc Response D 2s and WLM La Scala monitors.

Your 18 x11 speakers are probably like all the others, okay for
bedroom or den service, but you spent a fortune for something
sonically indistinguishable from Madisound kits. For actually less
money I have much better treble definition and dynamics with less
amplifier power, I have at least equal midbass-you may have better low
bass with a sub, but I'm not a low bass freak-and my mid and upper
bass and treble are more realistic and more dynamic than yours, hands
down.

Could what I have be improved? Yeah, it could. But not with anything
out of a high end saloon. You'd have to have it spec built with Altec,
JBL or maybe, if you could get them to sell you them, Tannoy drivers.
Certain Japanese drivers (TAD) are also in that league, but getting
them for a round-eye means flying to Japan and picking them up there.
Even if you have a Japanese speaking contact here getting them to ship
is like pulling teeth. I learned that trying to buy Japanese hot rod
parts in the 80s. They really don't want the gaijin business.

[Bret L]

>
> Displacement comes in two forms. Cone area and travel. You don't
> need the big cones of yesteryear which also provide their own
> challenges at relative low frequencies.
>
> Not to mention the passive crossover problems which are particularly
> horrific on woofers.
>
> Here's a good discussion.
>
> http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro1_e.html
>
> How many problems do passive crossovers have.
> 1) Power hogs
> 2) saturate
> 3) Heatup
> 4) couple back emf
> 5) complex amp loads
>
> It's unnecessary today.
>
> ScottW

Yes, but actives have their own set of issues, and although they are
capable of being dealt with, the audiophile market doesn't like them.
Pros have adopted multi-amping but the high end listeners are very
resistant to it, and you are not going to change this soon. I would if
I could.

There is no perfect solution but given a lot of the givens we are
stuck with, where you have the room, big woofers still offer
compelling advantages. The relatively lightly built cone with a fairly
limited travel by today's standards just does a good job with little
fuss and has for half a century.

[Bret L]

Hwew's the article, I doubt the author will mind:

Sounding passive?
Get Active! - Part I


Author: Mark Wheeler - TNT UK
Written: March-June, 2006

>> "What is a "passive loudspeaker"?

Most loudspeakers in domestic audio are "passive" transducers. their
function is to convert an electrical signal, 'arriving' at its
terminals, into an acoustic signal to arrive at our ears. In theory
this loudspeaker should add nothing in the process. Indeed with
conversion efficiencies typically in single figure percentages
(typically 1-4%), passive loudspeakers succeed in wasting most of that
electrical energy, so expensively produced by the amplifier. There is
no gain in a passive loudspeaker, only varying degrees of loss.
What is an "active loudspeaker"?

The term "active loudspeaker" can now mean any loudspeaker system that
contains its own amplifier (e.g. those for computers or i-pods), but
previously only referred to loudspeaker systems that divide the
frequencies for each drive unit before power-amplification, using an
active crossover. Wharfedale launched the "Active Diamonds" some years
ago, that contained an amplifier and passive crossover within the
loudspeaker cabinet, but before then the term "active system"
universally meant one where the crossover network divided the
frequency bands at line-level voltage and separate power amplifiers
were employed for each driver.

That's right, a separate amplifier channel for each frequency band (or
even each drive unit if the system has only one bass-unit, one
midrange and one tweeter per channel). This replaces the familiar
crossover filter network between power-amplification and drive-units.
In this two-part article we will consider how dividing the frequencies
in the millivolt domain (between pre-amplifier and drivers) is better
than in the whole volts domain (between the power amplifier and
drivers).

In the pro-sector the active crossover has ruled the PA and monitoring
speaker market for several years from quite modest quality levels
upwards. Given that pro-gear has to earn its living and justify
expenditure to an accountant, the implication is that this is a cost
effective loudspeaker solution.
Passive Crossover Problems

The inherent problems of passive crossovers are compounded by the
priorities that have become a dominant hegemony since the 1960s. In
the early days there was more diversity of design and more cross-
fertilisation between the professional and domestic markets as
production runs were so small that it made sense to be able to sell in
both.

When I first became absorbed in this hobby I wrote to every
manufacturer and importer I heard about, asking for sales literature,
usually by pretending to be older than my 13 years. I often received
white papers and patent documents among the sales-blurb and this is
where I began learning. I did notice even then that the big American
pro-sector companies, like JBL, talked about how their designs reduced
distortion (just like modern amplifiers at that time) and talked about
their innovations in the motor (magnet, spider & voice-coil) assembly
of their products.

Some of the British manufacturers tended to boast of their expertise
at reducing cabinet and cone colouration by lossy methods. Others
wrote of of the rigidity of their cones and linearity of surrounds,
while others of their phase coincidence at the crossover point! I soon
reached that realisation where I wanted one manufacturer's motor
assembly with another's cones and surrounds, in yet another's cabinet,
and my DIY days were born.

One major difference in emphasis between UK and US priority was
adherence to flat frequency response. Americans tended to mention
"frequency range" in a vague promise of power-bandwidth, whereas the
British offered tightly defined small-signal frequency response with
plus & minus limits clearly advertised. Unfortunately the drive to
achieve this with passive crossovers resulted in complicated multi-way
speakers with ever increasing filter complexity in some brands
resulting in poor transient response and wild phase-shifts across that
millpond-flat amplitude response. I owned a pair of 4-way monitors
that so obsessively sought a ruler-flat response to beyond 20kHz that
the crossover board was worth big-money for its scrap copper value
alone. The sound was mush. Some of the old parts illustrated here came
from those crossovers.

[Resistance is futile!!]
Resistance is futile

Let's get one hoary hifi dispute out in the open straight away: "Back
EMF". Whether or not back EMF (back electro-motive-force or voltage)
affects sound, whether or not bi-wiring reduces the problem (as
claimed), passive crossovers will be implicated in enabling and
compounding the phenomenon. If cone-mass momentum continues to move
the coil in the magnet gap for a few microseconds after the signal
changes, there will be a voltage generated, because the coil is
connected at both ends. This voltage will be generated and be divided
in proportion to the resistances in the local circuit. The local
circuit is the passive crossover, where the back EMF, if it exists,
will combine with the input signal in a completely non-linear
relationship. This is not even-order distortion, this is not odd-order
distortion, this is not even high-order distortion, this is DISORDER
DISTORTION (to coin a phrase). Passive bi-amping (using separate
amplifier channels for each drive unit, but with a passive-crossover
leg to each driver) would be a half-way measure, but spurious back EMF
(voltage) even then adds to the amplifier signal voltage across the
inductors, resistors & capacitors of the passive crossover causing non
linear distortion. It will only be eliminated by eliminating the
passive crossover.

In the active configuration the output devices or output transformer
are directly connected to the drive-unit terminals (via the connecting
wire), thus the so-called 'damping factor' (more accurately, impedance
ratio) actually has the desired effect, just like at line-level where
the low source impedance matched by a high input impedance, for low-
noise and wide even bandwidth.

Big inductors in the passive crossover are in series with the bass
unit. Smaller ones may be parallel to the treble unit and there may be
even more both series and parallel to the midrange unit where fitted.
Quite apart from the linear resistance and inductance of this
component, there are more damaging non-linear distortions. Whether air-
cored, ferrite cored, laminated silicon-iron cored, flat-wired, litz-
wired silver wired, or coated in pixie dust, it is still nothing more
than a BIG COIL OF CONDUCTOR. How do we make electric heaters? With a
big coil of wire, that's how. As conductors heat up their resistance
changes, so an underspecified inductor is a primitive time-delayed
compressor at speaker voltage levels, at very small signal levels an
inductor is probably more linear than capacitors, but the conditions
inside a speaker cabinet are much more hostile.

When transient high signal levels are passed, something worse happens.
The magnetic field generated can saturate a ferrite core, causing a
loud 'crack' sound on really heavy peaks, and a fizz on smaller peaks,
which is surprisingly easy & fun to determine by experiment. Air cored
inductors do not suffer from this, but they need many more turns of
wire to achieve the same value, which increases the DC resistance, and
makes the heating problem worse (I have measured over 2 ohms in a
commercial 8 ohm speaker, whose voice coil R was 6 ohms, thus a third
of the amplifier power was being consumed to heat up the crossover).
So the resistance and power handling can be improved by larger gauge
wire, hence the great big bobbins common in better quality crossovers.

The magnetic field generated by every inductor will induce a voltage
in every other inductor on a similar plane on the x-over board. This
adds more non linear distortion, and if the crossover can vibrate,
which it must inside the speaker cabinet, yet more non-linear
distortion is added. Hence no loudspeaker with any pretence at quality
should ever house a passive crossover inside the bass chamber of a
loudspeaker.

[Loadsa wire!]
Miles of wire & no snake-oil in sight

Resistors? Many of the same problems as inductors apply to resistors,
plus parasitic capacitance, and some are more inductive than others
and their temperature gradient varies...etcetera, ad infinitum.

Capacitors have long been the topic of debate in audiophile circles.
At large signal levels in loudspeakers there are even more problems.
Try connecting a crossover capacitor across the output of an amplifier
(making sure it will not damage the amplifier) and play some music
through the cap. Hear it? the capacitor is making a sound. This just
adds to the non-linear distortion of the passive filter.

The massive output stage of the universal solid-state power amplifier
is mostly needed to drive the passive crossover. The over-specified
iron of the popular single-ended triode amplifier needs to be able to
handle steep-slope phase shifts of passive crossovers (unlike its
brethren destined to drive single-driver horns) and the complicated
feedback arrangements of push-pull tetrode and pentode amplifiers are
needed to pull-down the output impedance low enough to interface
linearly with reactive multi-way filter networks. Amplifiers could be
much simpler (and cheaper) if only asked to drive one speaker drive-
unit each.

With that catalogue of problems, it is a wonder anyone ever though
passive crossovers belonged in anything more elaborate than a portable
Dansette. With cheap digital amplification lower in cost per channel
than the lumps of electronica in the passive x-over, the time has
surely come to bury the passive crossover with fibre needles and
cassette-tapes.

"many loudspeakers suffer from ringing, caused by the crossover
chokes, stored energy which is released slowly, completely destroying
the character of the original sound, low frequency are extended at the
expense of distortion, all percussive bass instruments are made to
sound as if they emanate from a large cardboard box", says Bill Dyer,
pro-audio grandee and founder of Dyer Digital Audio Systems.

3-way speakers have even more complicated passive crossover filters so
benefit even more from multi-amping between crossover filters and
drivers. Steep-slope filters (higher order filters) have more
components than 1st order, so benefit more too. The simplest 2-way 4th
order passive crossover network cannot have less than 4 capacitors and
four inductors in each speaker and the simplest 2nd order three-way
cannot be made with less than the same, assuming the impedance and the
sensitivity of every driver is the same and linear over its passband.
The real world is far more complicated than this, and I have seen a
first order crossover with a very complicated filter network to
integrate two drivers.

The disadvantages of overly-simple passive crossovers (the single cap
to the tweeter for example) are equally detrimental in different
respects. It is almost impossible to design a perfect driver
mechanically, so the filter is useful to prevent the driver being
driven by high frequencies that will merely excite resonances, while
producing no linear output (at the top of bass-mid driver ranges) and
a simple 2nd order filter will improve midrange colouration on most
speakers. The mechanical alternative to the electrical filter is
effectively a mechanical filter of various doping and damping
compounds that add mass to the moving parts of the driver, and are
temperature variable too. Low-order tweeter high-pass filters do not
block enough of the higher-amplitude lower-frequencies, causing
intermodulation distortion at best, then overload distortion, before
melting with sustained high levels.

The overlap region where both bass and treble driver are both making
output is much wider with a gentle slope crossover. Thus there is more
interference between them over a wider band and at higher amplitude. A
first order crossover is only 6dB down an octave away from the
crossover point. Thus for a 2kHz crossover in a 90dB speaker, the bass
unit is still emitting 84dB at 4kHz, which interferes (either
constructively causing a peak or destructively causing a notch).
Likewise the treble unit is still struggling with an input of 84dB at
1kHz, which may be perilously close to its principal resonant
frequency. Merely removing complexity from passive crossovers is not
enough.

[And to cap it all...]
If the cap fits
Are there more passive problems?

The frequencies a couple of octaves either side of the crossover
region are again subject to big phase shifts through the passive
crossover, demanding that amplifier current and voltage are not
supplied in the nice cosy relationship expected with a well behaved
linear resistance of the nominal 8 ohms. It is hard to decide which
gets more upset here, the amplifier trying to deliver an evenly
distributed power bandwidth or the drivers whose swinging impedance
(mirroring their resonances) are not being well matched by a low
amplifier output impedance. Indeed the driver is being mismatched by a
fluctuating output impedance that is the sum of the amplifier and the
x-over.

All amplifiers then have to be designed to cope with the whole gamut
of possible wild gyrations of crossover impedance anomolies. This is
why some amplifier-speaker combinations depend on their mutual
synergy. The single ended triode designer has to choose whether to
maximise the swing of the output valve, relying on the end user
choosing a single driver speaker without a crossover (like a Lowther)
or compromise the voltage available to allow for higher phase-shifting
current demands of more conventional 2-way designs. If speakers all
behaved as linear resistances there would be no need for high
instantaneous current monster amplifiers. Indeed, the main task facing
domestic audio amplifiers is driving the crazy impedance curve offered
by the crossover.

Finally, the commonest argument for active crossovers is that they
operate at lower voltages and currents than passive crossovers. A lot
of amplifier energy gets used heating crossover components instead of
moving air. Differing driver sensitivities are matched by resistors in
passive crossovers; what a waste of expensive amplifier power. Driver
impedance curves are often tamed by Zobel networks that include energy
wasting resistors in passive crossovers. It is also more difficult and
expensive to make a big capacitor with low ESR and low distortion than
a little one. It takes a much bigger capacitor to turn over the same
frequency with an 8 ohm resistor than with a 20 kohm resistor. And
that biggy also has to handle much bigger voltages and currents. It
costs more. It distorts more. Its tolerance is harder to achieve.

The driver impedance is a lot less predictable than the input resistor
of a gain stage. As the driver voice coil heats and cools its
resistance changes dramatically, so the crossover frequency of a
passive crossover changes by a similar order-of-magnitude. If the
frequency response of a passive crossover speaker was measured at 2
volts it will be different at less than 1 volt and very different at
10 volts. All of these conditions could happen in the same 3 minute
song.
Conclusions

Apart from cost and the vested interest of manufacturers to keep
persuading enthusiasts to buy a new amplifier then to buy a new pair
of speakers, then to buy a new amplifier then to buy a new pair of
speakers, then to buy a new amplifier then to buy a new pair of
speakers, then to buy a new amplifier then to buy a new pair of
speakers, then to buy a new amplifier then to buy a new pair of
speakers, ad infinitum, I cannot think of any reason why domestic
audio remains committed to this clumsy technology.

Even with modest sized speakers and modest amplifiers my experience
has been that the same amount of money is better spent on an active
set-up. As soon as a system reaches separate pre-amplifier and power-
amplifier, whether it is solid-state, class D, push-pull valve or
single-ended triode, the next step ought to be an active crossover to
suit that technology and an extra stereo power amplifier.

Go on to Part II
Some Music I have enjoyed more with active loudspeakers

* Billy Cobham: Spectrum, percussion complexity untangled by
active spekers, long before Massive Attack's familiar sample
* Little Feat: The Last Record Album, active speakers ameliorate
the intermodulation problems wrought by this bass-emphasised mix
* Mickey Hart etc: Däfos, the shattering dynamics of this slab of
vinyl only really work with active speakers
* Arne Domnerus etc: Jazz at the Pawnshop, 'you are there'
recording masterpiece, active speakers get you a better table at the
nightclub
* Miles Davies Bitches Brew, recent revisit as i moved my lp
collection from house to house
* Herbie Hancock Headhunters, another recent revisit of an old
favourite
* Sly & Robbie Black Ash Dub, excellent production that deserves a
high-colouration big-paper-cone sound system rather than a mint active-
monitor; the exception that proves the rule!

Test Recordings used that emphasised the difference

* Chesky: Best of Chesky Jazz and more audiophile tests Volume 2,
percussion imaging tests; general image resolution test; height tests
* HiFi News Test Disc III, LEDR test "<<

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro1_e.html

[hophead]

In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
@t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...

> Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> me.
>
> Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?

Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
Those guys are crazy!

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 8:47�am, hophead > wrote:
> In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> > me.
>
> > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
>
> Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> Those guys are crazy!

Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.

"The Magic Is in the Hole!"

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> On Jul 31, 8:47?am, hophead > wrote:
> > In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> > @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> > > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> > > me.
> >
> > > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
> >
> > Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> > Those guys are crazy!
>
> Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.
>
> "The Magic Is in the Hole!"

Okay, I took a look at the menu. Hip doughnuts, yes? Google suggests
Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!

Stephen

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

MiNe 109 said:

> Google suggests
> Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!

"Everything tastes better with bacon in it."

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 12:46�pm, George M. Middius >
wrote:
> MiNe 109 said:
>
> > �Google suggests
> > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
>
> "Everything tastes better with bacon in it."

Maple bacon bar. That's my older son's favorite. It's crazy good.

[George M. Middius[_4_]]

vinyl anachronist said:

> > > ?Google suggests
> > > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
> >
> > "Everything tastes better with bacon in it."
>
> Maple bacon bar. That's my older son's favorite. It's crazy good.

It sounds disgusting.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 30, 9:42�pm, Bret L > wrote:
> On Jul 30, 9:11 pm, vinyl anachronist >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 5:14 pm, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 30, 5:41 pm, vinyl anachronist >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 30, 1:57 am, Bret L > wrote:
>
> > > > > The bookshelves are okay for modest listening, bedrooms, offices,
> > > > > etc, but no bookshelf competes with a good set of big speakers when
> > > > > high SPL transients are desired. I've heard the ProAcs, they are OK
> > > > > but there is no real significant difference between them and much less
> > > > > expensive 2 ways. It's like comparing a car engine to a Rolls Merlin.
> > > > > There is no replacement for displacement.
>
> > > > > And $2200 gets you some nice big speakers.
>
> > > > Stop the presses...you like quantity over quality.
>
> > > > Small speakers often image much better and are easier to set up. They
> > > > work better in small rooms. They're perfect for a great many music
> > > > lovers. Not every audio product should be designed with people like
> > > > you in mind.
>
> > > Oh, I quite agree small speakers are a good thing in a lot of
> > > situations, but the expensive ones are only a very tiny bit better if
> > > indeed at all from the modestly priced ones. The old homebrews made
> > > from David Weems plans out of a baloney-sliced flue tile I got from a
> > > friend when he moved are as good as some of what the local saloons had
> > > for $2-3K, better in some ways. I'm saying don't spend a lot for small
> > > two way speakers. Anything over four or five hundred bucks, or so, is
> > > flushed down the crapper with most of these little guys. Unless you
> > > are buying some specific active monitor for calibration purposes, like
> > > the Genelecs, if you work for a company that has work product on them
> > > and you want accurate simulation. Otherwise, stick with modest priced
> > > ones.
>
> > > Subs and satellites are fine but they are not a replacement for a
> > > pair of big 12" or 15" woofers. If you have the space and the suitable
> > > room and want natural dynamics get the serious gear. "There is no
> > > replacement for displacement".
>
> > I do not like subwoofers. I've always opted for full-range speakers.
>
> > > It's very chic to ignore that what with full size trendy chic cars
> > > with 3 liter (183 cid) engines...the laws of physics don't change.
>
> > My car has a 2.0 liter engine, has 272 hp, goes from 0-60 in under 5
> > and does the quarter mile in 13. I've beaten many V-8s.
>
> �Yeah, but it's a small car, and that 2 liter engine is not going to
> pull a trailer nor would it last running continuously at 270 hp. In
> car service it doesn't have to. I don't have a car I'd drag now but
> the engine i'm driving behind in the right chassis would run 9s. If
> you are going to drag a car with CV joints you are going to get awful
> tired of changing CV joints, even after spending a fortune to have
> them upgraded to Porsche 930 units like all the other two liter fart
> can warriors. I love my old tech pushrod V8s with $29 alternators and
> water pumps and nice roomy back seats and trunks and full size spares.
>
> �I'm thinking of buying an old type 1 Volkswagen (a Bug,the real one)
> just for going to work, or another old diesel Benz. Just for a little
> variety. Then again I might not.
>
>
>
> > It's not all about bass extension and SPLs. I could easily spend the
> > rest of my life with a pair of Harbeth Monitor 30s, and they're 18" x
> > 11" x 11". Same with ProAc Response D 2s and WLM La Scala monitors.
>
> �Your 18 x11 speakers are probably like all the others, okay for
> bedroom or den service, but you spent a fortune for something
> sonically indistinguishable from Madisound kits.

1. They're not my speakers. I didn't spend a fortune.
2. Harbeth makes its own drivers, so they're not sonically
indistiguishable from Madisound kits.
3. You've probably never heard Monitor 30s, so you have no idea how
they sound.

Like most people with ASD, you have difficulties in comprehending what
other people say and responding appropriately.

> Certain Japanese drivers (TAD) �are also in that league, but
getting
> them for a round-eye means flying to Japan and picking them up there.
> Even if you have a Japanese speaking contact here getting them to ship
> is like pulling teeth. �I learned that trying to buy Japanese hot rod
> parts in the 80s. They really don't want the gaijin business.

We're talking about speakers, and you had to throw a few racist
comments in. What kind of utter moron does that?

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 11:37�am, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 31, 8:47?am, hophead > wrote:
> > > In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> > > @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> > > > me.
>
> > > > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
>
> > > Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> > > Those guys are crazy!
>
> > Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.
>
> > "The Magic Is in the Hole!"
>
> Okay, I took a look at the menu. Hip doughnuts, yes? Google suggests
> Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!

Portland is pretty over the top in the hip department. I could do
without the scent of patchouli oil everywhere I go.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 1:05�pm, George M. Middius >
wrote:
> vinyl anachronist said:
>
> > > > ?Google suggests
> > > > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > > > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
>
> > > "Everything tastes better with bacon in it."
>
> > Maple bacon bar. That's my older son's favorite. It's crazy good.
>
> It sounds disgusting.

It's nouveau cuisine, like peanut butter on a burger. Sounds weird,
tastes great.

[hophead]

In article >,
says...

> It sounds disgusting.

It does - I refused to get one the last time I was in Portland. But a
friend I was with got one and raved about it the whole trip. He
literally though it was one of the best things he'd ever tasted.

I'll probably cave and get one the next time I'm in town.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 1:16�pm, hophead > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
> > It sounds disgusting.
>
> It does - I refused to get one the last time I was in Portland. But a
> friend I was with got one and raved about it the whole trip. He
> literally though it was one of the best things he'd ever tasted.
>
> I'll probably cave and get one the next time I'm in town.

They have maple-flavored breakfast sausages, bacon and ham...it's not
as weird as most people think. My kids are pretty finicky, but they
think it's fantastic.

[hophead]

In article <df72d943-237f-42f6-9e9d-e938395e8db8
@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, says...

> They have maple-flavored breakfast sausages, bacon and ham...it's not
> as weird as most people think. My kids are pretty finicky, but they
> think it's fantastic.

Good point -- maple and bacon are pretty complimentary flavors and I can
see this working. I admit I'm not much of a doughnut fan though: I once
walked into a Krispy Kreme and left wondering how anyone could eat that
crap, much less rave about it. Yuck!

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 1:48�pm, hophead > wrote:
> In article <df72d943-237f-42f6-9e9d-e938395e8db8
> @y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > They have maple-flavored breakfast sausages, bacon and ham...it's not
> > as weird as most people think. My kids are pretty finicky, but they
> > think it's fantastic.
>
> Good point -- maple and bacon are pretty complimentary flavors and I can
> see this working. I admit I'm not much of a doughnut fan though: I once
> walked into a Krispy Kreme and left wondering how anyone could eat that
> crap, much less rave about it. Yuck!

I've never thought much of Krispy Kreme...it's all air and sugar to
me. Voodoo makes real doughnuts, albeit real weird ones.

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
vinyl anachronist > wrote:

> On Jul 31, 11:37?am, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
> >
> > > On Jul 31, 8:47?am, hophead > wrote:
> > > > In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> > > > @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> > > > > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really spoiled
> > > > > me.
> >
> > > > > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
> >
> > > > Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> > > > Those guys are crazy!
> >
> > > Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.
> >
> > > "The Magic Is in the Hole!"
> >
> > Okay, I took a look at the menu. Hip doughnuts, yes? Google suggests
> > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
>
> Portland is pretty over the top in the hip department. I could do
> without the scent of patchouli oil everywhere I go.

Check out the Gourds' 'Tex-Mex Mile' sometime!

Stephen

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article >,
MiNe 109 > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 31, 11:37?am, MiNe 109 > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Jul 31, 8:47?am, hophead > wrote:
> > > > > In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> > > > > @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says...
> > >
> > > > > > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really
> > > > > > spoiled
> > > > > > me.
> > >
> > > > > > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
> > >
> > > > > Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> > > > > Those guys are crazy!
> > >
> > > > Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.
> > >
> > > > "The Magic Is in the Hole!"
> > >
> > > Okay, I took a look at the menu. Hip doughnuts, yes? Google suggests
> > > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
> >
> > Portland is pretty over the top in the hip department. I could do
> > without the scent of patchouli oil everywhere I go.
>
> Check out the Gourds' 'Tex-Mex Mile' sometime!
>
> Stephen

In the two year since I've been to Portland, downtown seems to have
gotten a lot more "trendy". Two years ago, I saw the big difference in
the trendy shop area in the NW compared to when I moved from there in
'97. But this time, I went to Powell's from Lewis and Clark College
late in the evening, and on the way drove by the Pioneer Square area and
there were tons of young folks hanging, etc. Perhaps there was a
special event; it looked like there was a dance or something happening.
SE and NE looked about the same. I didn't get to Hawthorne or Sellwood
this time, darn it.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Jul 31, 4:30�pm, Jenn > wrote:
> In article >,
> �MiNe 109 � > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > �vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 31, 11:37?am, MiNe 109 � > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > ?vinyl anachronist > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 31, 8:47?am, hophead > wrote:
> > > > > > In article <7fd7eb80-bc01-487d-8d60-a5f7fa35a520
> > > > > > @t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, says....
>
> > > > > > > Thanks! I'll need a good record store. Music Millenium really
> > > > > > > spoiled
> > > > > > > me.
>
> > > > > > > Now...what do you have that will replace Voodoo Doughnuts?
>
> > > > > > Dude - you're NOT going to find a replacement for Voodoo Doughnuts.
> > > > > > Those guys are crazy!
>
> > > > > Bummer. I'll have to grab a T-shirt from them as well.
>
> > > > > "The Magic Is in the Hole!"
>
> > > > Okay, I took a look at the menu. Hip doughnuts, yes? Google suggests
> > > > Austin is currently out-hipped by Wichita in this food category. I guess
> > > > the vegan doughnuts at Whole Foods aren't in the running!
>
> > > Portland is pretty over the top in the hip department. I could do
> > > without the scent of patchouli oil everywhere I go.
>
> > Check out the Gourds' 'Tex-Mex Mile' sometime!
>
> > Stephen
>
> In the two year since I've been to Portland, downtown seems to have
> gotten a lot more "trendy". �Two years ago, I saw the big difference in
> the trendy shop area in the NW compared to when I moved from there in
> '97. �But this time, I went to Powell's from Lewis and Clark College
> late in the evening, and on the way drove by the Pioneer Square area and
> there were tons of young folks hanging, etc. �Perhaps there was a
> special event; it looked like there was a dance or something happening. �
> SE and NE looked about the same. �I didn't get to Hawthorne or Sellwood
> this time, darn it.

I've been sticking to my side of the river lately, which means bland,
boring suburbia. I'm working on a new computer project, the same one
that's leading me to Austin, and I've been a hermit for weeks. I've
ventured out into Portland with my family a few times this summer, but
not nearly as much as I did this winter when I was covering shows
nearly every week. I have no idea what's happening in Stumptown
lately.