'Adding' a drum track to a mastered stereo track in Cubase

[James[_9_]]

I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What I
want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so that it
sounds natural.

For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so that
I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the additional
recording focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I know the original
recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is drifting out by the end of
the track. How do I lock the audio track down into the cubase song
structure?

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks

James

[philicorda[_7_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:07:54 +0100, James wrote:

> I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What I
> want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so that
> it sounds natural.
>
> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so
> that I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the
> additional recording focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I
> know the original recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is
> drifting out by the end of the track. How do I lock the audio track down
> into the cubase song structure?

Was the original done to a click all the way through? If wasn't, then
you'll never find a tempo that works.

Why not sync the click track to the WAV instead?

You can draw a tempo map in Cubase. It's going to be a bit fiddly, but
the alternative is a lot of micro edits or time stretching.

Make sure you lock the original WAV to sample rather than musical time,
so it doesn't move when you change tempo. The easiest way to do this is
to put it in the project so it starts at 0:0:00:00.

>
> Hope this makes sense!
>
> Thanks
>
> James

[philicorda[_7_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:28:00 +0000, philicorda wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:07:54 +0100, James wrote:
>
>> I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What
>> I want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so
>> that it sounds natural.
>>
>> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so
>> that I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the
>> additional recording focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I
>> know the original recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is
>> drifting out by the end of the track. How do I lock the audio track
>> down into the cubase song structure?

Ah, forgot one thing.

If the original was done to a click, try changing the tempo up and down
by .01 of a bpm or so, and see if the audio starts to line up with the
Cubase bar lines by the end of the song. Some DAWs don't quite agree on
BPM for some strange reason.

[Mike Rivers]

James wrote:
> I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What I
> want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so that it
> sounds natural.

Overdubbing drums to a complete song takes quite a bit of skill and
practice.
The setup isn't difficult (depending, of course, on what you really mean by
"multi-tracked") but the playing won't be easy.

> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so that
> I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the additional
> recording focussed.

Even if the original was recorded to a metronome (and they stuck to it)
it's difficult to find exactly the right tempo. Try counting beats with
a stopwatch
and start with that beats-per-minute setting for the Cubase metronome.
You'll
probably have to tweak it some. But if the tempo wanders, there are really
only two things that you can do. You can create a tempo map (tedious) or
you can just play along enough times so that you get a feel for where the
song is going, and then record.

There are programs such as ACID that attempt to find the tempo and
will actually let you stretch or compress the song in segments to get it to
a steady tempo, but that's a whole lot of work. Better to just set up your
mics and drums and play along. You will probably find it easier to move
your drum tracks around to match up with the song than the other way
around.

> at the moment the audio is drifting out by the end of
> the track. How do I lock the audio track down into the cubase song
> structure?

You don't. Unless you take it apart and put it back together phrase by
phrase (in time, of course) the recording is fixed in time, and that
determines
the song structure.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:07:54 +0100, "James" >
wrote:

>I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What I
>want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so that it
>sounds natural.
>
>For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so that
>I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the additional
>recording focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I know the original
>recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is drifting out by the end of
>the track. How do I lock the audio track down into the cubase song
>structure?

Later versions of Cubase have excellent tools for aligning the MIDI
tempo map with already-recorded material. Basically all you have to
do is drag a barline to the appropriate place on the waveform. This
alignment can easily be done every bar, every 8 bars - even every beat
if required.

But be warned. If the tempo varies enough to make more than
occasional re-alignment necessary, a quantised drum groove will sound
most odd while following the tempo map.

[philicorda[_7_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:07:36 +0100, Laurence Payne wrote:

<snip>
> Later versions of Cubase have excellent tools for aligning the MIDI
> tempo map with already-recorded material. Basically all you have to do
> is drag a barline to the appropriate place on the waveform. This
> alignment can easily be done every bar, every 8 bars - even every beat
> if required.
>
> But be warned. If the tempo varies enough to make more than occasional
> re-alignment necessary, a quantised drum groove will sound most odd
> while following the tempo map.

Wow, that's a new and very useful one for me, and I thought I knew Cubase
pretty well.
Time to hit the manuals!

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:42:38 GMT, philicorda
> wrote:

>> But be warned. If the tempo varies enough to make more than occasional
>> re-alignment necessary, a quantised drum groove will sound most odd
>> while following the tempo map.
>
>Wow, that's a new and very useful one for me, and I thought I knew Cubase
>pretty well.
>Time to hit the manuals!

The "drag to the waveform" thing has been there for a couple of
versions. Previously you could do a rather laborious process with
hitpoints and a one-shot align function. It's dead easy now. Once
you see the tempo map, you can decide whether there's any point in
trying to make a drum groove follow it. Sometimes playing the drums
live from a keyboard works better, if it's "musical" music (if you see
what I mean:-)

[James[_9_]]

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message

> The "drag to the waveform" thing has been there for a couple of
> versions. Previously you could do a rather laborious process with
> hitpoints and a one-shot align function. It's dead easy now. Once
> you see the tempo map, you can decide whether there's any point in
> trying to make a drum groove follow it. Sometimes playing the drums
> live from a keyboard works better, if it's "musical" music (if you see
> what I mean:-)

Great - thanks for that, I'll give it a try. The original recording was
recorded perfectly in time so in theory I've just to find the right tempo
for it to sync, so I'll try a few tempo fractions first

James

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:26:58 +0100, "James" >
wrote:

>
>"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
>
>> The "drag to the waveform" thing has been there for a couple of
>> versions. Previously you could do a rather laborious process with
>> hitpoints and a one-shot align function. It's dead easy now. Once
>> you see the tempo map, you can decide whether there's any point in
>> trying to make a drum groove follow it. Sometimes playing the drums
>> live from a keyboard works better, if it's "musical" music (if you see
>> what I mean:-)
>
>Great - thanks for that, I'll give it a try. The original recording was
>recorded perfectly in time so in theory I've just to find the right tempo
>for it to sync, so I'll try a few tempo fractions first
>
>James
>

Select exactly one minute of the tune, and while playing it count the
beats (it helps to tap a finger). The tempo falls nicely off the end
of that.

d

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:26:58 +0100, "James" >
wrote:

>Great - thanks for that, I'll give it a try. The original recording was
>recorded perfectly in time so in theory I've just to find the right tempo
>for it to sync, so I'll try a few tempo fractions first

If Cubase is available, it's MUCH easier and quicker to just align
beat 1 with a bar line, drag (say) bar 16 to the appropriate beat on
the waveform. If this results in the whole song staying synched (it
might if the audio was recorded to a stable click) you're OK. If not,
get more clever.

[Les Cargill]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:26:58 +0100, "James" >
> wrote:
>
>> Great - thanks for that, I'll give it a try. The original recording was
>> recorded perfectly in time so in theory I've just to find the right tempo
>> for it to sync, so I'll try a few tempo fractions first
>
> If Cubase is available, it's MUCH easier and quicker to just align
> beat 1 with a bar line, drag (say) bar 16 to the appropriate beat on
> the waveform. If this results in the whole song staying synched (it
> might if the audio was recorded to a stable click) you're OK. If not,
> get more clever.

The chance of it lining up as if to a click is roughly zero. And
enforcing a tempo map on an existing performance is an art at
best.

--
Les Cargill

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:54:38 -0400, Les Cargill >
wrote:

>Laurence Payne wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:26:58 +0100, "James" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Great - thanks for that, I'll give it a try. The original recording was
>>> recorded perfectly in time so in theory I've just to find the right tempo
>>> for it to sync, so I'll try a few tempo fractions first
>>
>> If Cubase is available, it's MUCH easier and quicker to just align
>> beat 1 with a bar line, drag (say) bar 16 to the appropriate beat on
>> the waveform. If this results in the whole song staying synched (it
>> might if the audio was recorded to a stable click) you're OK. If not,
>> get more clever.
>
>The chance of it lining up as if to a click is roughly zero. And
>enforcing a tempo map on an existing performance is an art at
>best.

Maybe we can take James' statement: "The original recording was
recorded perfectly in time..." at face value. Maybe not. But it's
worth a try.

Where tempo varies, deciding what compromises to make while
constructing a tempo map is indeed an art. But we're lucky that the
tools in Cubase (and doubtless in other good sequencer programs) now
make the technical aspect very easy.

[WillStG]

On Jul 21, 9:07 am, "James" > wrote:
> I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV. What I
> want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix it so that it
> sounds natural.
>
> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click track so that
> I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome and keep the additional
> recording focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I know the original
> recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is drifting out by the end of
> the track. How do I lock the audio track down into the cubase song
> structure?
>
> Hope this makes sense!
>
> Thanks
>
> James

I have added live drums to a recorded session after the fact, and
it's not universally true that you always need to provide a good
drummer with a click track, it kind of depends on the song, sometimes
a song has a compelling enough performance that the drummer can just
play along. You may have to reverse engineer a good count off
though. More cowbell!

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:23:51 -0700 (PDT), WillStG >
wrote:

> I have added live drums to a recorded session after the fact, and
>it's not universally true that you always need to provide a good
>drummer with a click track, it kind of depends on the song, sometimes
>a song has a compelling enough performance that the drummer can just
>play along. You may have to reverse engineer a good count off
>though. More cowbell!

Of course, if a track has intrinsic rhythm to that degree, the
question arises whether it NEEDS a drum kit at all. Maybe add some
percussion sweetening. But if it drives already...

What a pity so much recorded music is constructed in this way, rather
than played.

[dwgriffi]

I wouldn't discount what I do pretty regularly, because sometimes even
the best syncing method isn't 100%, and actually sometimes if it's in
sync it still might sound like it missed the "pocket", since the
players didn't play with the drummer as feel influence. It's like the
concept of making a sculpture of an elephant by chipping away anything
that doesn't look like an elephant. I put the drums in, with
whatever method of syncing, then go bar by bar and anything that
doesn't sit right with me I move, rahther than assume it could be
synced better. Because even if the transients or the actual tempo
says it's lined up, that doesn't mean it's the best place to be. It's
time consuming, but I just make a mug of coffee and have my manual way
with it.

It's a shame to do it in a normal session, but with in an situation
like this I usually don't go with how tracks line up.

d

[Nil]

On 21 Jul 2009, "James" > wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

> I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo WAV.
> What I want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and try and mix
> it so that it sounds natural.
>
> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the click
> track so that I can at least work with it using cubase's metronome
> and keep the additional recording focussed. Any suggestions as to
> how I do this?

I think you're going about it backwards. Instead of getting the audio
to line up with the click track, you want to get the click track to
line up with the audio.

Are you planning to have a real drummer play along with the track? Or
are you going to program a computerized drum track?

If the former, just record a MIDI click track in real time to use as a
metronome, tapping the beats on your keyboard.

If the latter... I don't know Cubase to make a specific suggestion, but
it can be pretty easily done with Cakewalk Sonar. Those two products
seem to be always playing catchup with with each other, so I wouldn't
be surprised if Cubase can do it, too.

In Sonar, you can listen to the WAV track and record a MIDI click track
along with it, one click per quarter note. Then you use the Fit
Improvisation feature which will adjust the tempo map, adjusting the
tempo slightly here (MIDI only, the audio isn't touched) and there so
that the bar lines line up in the right places. After that, you can
program your rhythm track, use loops, or whatever.

[James[_9_]]

"Nil" wrote in message


> Are you planning to have a real drummer play along with the track? Or
> are you going to program a computerized drum track?
>
> If the former, just record a MIDI click track in real time to use as a
> metronome, tapping the beats on your keyboard.

I'm planning to record the drum track - putting acoustic drums down to this
track is a little project I have. Its an extremely well recorded, slick pop
track, similar in style to the better 'Go West' material. As such it needs
to be very tight without being mechanical - tapping along simply isn't
precise enough; that would be no different to playing along as it is. I can
quite easily record the track without a click, but I'd like to do a really
good job of this and ensure beat placement is entirely consistent throughout
the recording and metronomically sound (yes, I'm one of those really anal
drummers who analyse precise beat placement and define what limb plays at
what part of the beat; kick and hat is dead centre, snare slightly
anticipated on this track. Its very difficult to record a track like this
without metronomic reference).

[Wecan do it]

"James" > wrote in message
...
>I have a final mix of a song track (minus drums) as a stereo
>WAV. What I want to do is add multi-tracked drums to it and
>try and mix it so that it sounds natural.
>
> For starters, I am trying to get the WAV to sync to the
> click track so that I can at least work with it using
> cubase's metronome and keep the additional recording
> focussed. Any suggestions as to how I do this? I know the
> original recorded tempo, but at the moment the audio is
> drifting out by the end of the track. How do I lock the
> audio track down into the cubase song structure?
>
> Hope this makes sense!
>
> Thanks
>
> James

I have Nuendo and know how to warp the tempo map to a song.
This will make you midi click go with the song. I have seen
this done with Cubase too.

1) put clock into tempo map mode.
2) put timeline into bars and beats mode.
3) get the tempo and time signature close to the songs
starting tempo
4) set the first beat in the song to happen right at the start
of the clip (you can change this later)
5) set the cursor pointer to "time warp" (
arrow,sicsors,glue,timewarp etc.)
6)drag the first beat in the song to a "one"beat and lock the
position of the song there.
6a) put markers on all the ones as you play the song.
6b) set snap to events
7)learn how the time warp cursor drags the subsequent ones on
the timeline to the place in the song where the ones occur and
hold shift while applying the warp. This locks that new one
beat to the place in the song. There will not be an event for
each lock in the tempo map.



if this is played live than you may have to do this every few
bars. Looking at the tempo map will tell you how good your
cadence is.

Now your midi track will play your sequencer in time with your
song.

peace
dawg
>
>
>

[James[_9_]]

"Wecan do it" wrote in message

> I have Nuendo and know how to warp the tempo map to a song. This will make
> you midi click go with the song. I have seen this done with Cubase too.

Many thanks - I'll give this a try

[Wecan do it]

my pleasure to be of assistance.

peace
dawg
"James" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wecan do it" wrote in message
>
>> I have Nuendo and know how to warp the tempo map to a song.
>> This will make you midi click go with the song. I have
>> seen this done with Cubase too.
>
> Many thanks - I'll give this a try
>
>
>