multitrack drums from TD-6 MIDI

[Fredbob Jackson]

I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
and it looks like that time has come.

I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.

The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.

The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?

I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
do this?

[Nono]

On 25 mei, 16:31, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. *I
> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> analog stereo out. *I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> very few overdubs. *With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> sure I can accomplish it. *My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> board. *But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. *Is
> that possible? *And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. *So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? *There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? *I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. *Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. *This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. *Is there a slicker way to
> do this?

Can you explain what it is exactly that you want to record of the
drums?
Do you want to record the audio / sound into your recorder or the midi
information.
In the case of the latter you'll need a sequencer to record this midi
information in, you'll have to sync it to your multitrack recorder by
SMPTE or midi and you'll have the sound generator of the drum kit or
another sound generator (drum computer) at you disposal to produce the
audio / sounds for the sequenced midi track during the mix.
Being this new with midi this might be a problem to master in time to
do a good job and have a succesfull recording session.
Besides, it only makes sense to record midi if you're planning to use
other drum sounds in the mix than the ones that were used during
recording or if you want to change / edit the drum performance.

Should you just want to record the actual audio from the drum kit,
then you have to inform how many separate / individual audio outputs
this drum kit has. If it has enough audio outputs for each separate
instruments, like snare, bass drum. hi hat etc., then you, or drummer,
have to assign each drum instrument to one particular output and you
just have to connect an audio cable from each of these outputs to your
recording equipment.
Should this kit not have (enough) individual outs, then you can find
another sound generator - like a drum computer - that has and record
each drum instrument on separate tracks.

I hope this was of some help.

Good luck,
Norman.

[Neil Gould]

Fredbob Jackson wrote:
> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
> that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> do this?
>
Just to add a couple of thoughts to Nono's excellent overview of your
situation; a MIDI drum kit without its associated interface is simply a set
of triggers... there is no sound. I would presume that the drummer has used
the kit long enough to have derived a playing style that works well with the
sounds generated from the interface (which is actually a synth, btw), and
would see my job as prioritizing the success of the session. Since the
drummer will be listening to the mix strictly through headphones, s/he may
be uncomfortable if there is a drastic change in the kit's sound and that
may in turn hurt the performance. So, the time that would be spent figuring
out how to re-wire the kit to give more individual feeds may be better used
tweaking the foldback mix to the drummer's liking, and then just use the
stereo feed for the session.

--
Best,

Neil

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 25 May 2009 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT), Fredbob Jackson
> wrote:

>I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
>don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
>and it looks like that time has come.

Not really. The drummer's just playing a synth that happens to look
like a drum kit. Treat its audio outputs just as you would
microphones on a real kit. If the "brains" of his electronic kit has
separate outputs for separate instruments (and you have sufficient
recording channels) you'll have more mixing options. Or maybe he'll
just give you a stereo feed of the whole kit - you'll have to accept
the balance HE likes (or at least discuss it with him if you feel what
he prefers live isn't right for recording)

[Les Cargill]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 2009 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT), Fredbob Jackson
> > wrote:
>
>> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
>> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
>> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> Not really. The drummer's just playing a synth that happens to look
> like a drum kit. Treat its audio outputs just as you would
> microphones on a real kit. If the "brains" of his electronic kit has
> separate outputs for separate instruments (and you have sufficient
> recording channels) you'll have more mixing options. Or maybe he'll
> just give you a stereo feed of the whole kit - you'll have to accept
> the balance HE likes (or at least discuss it with him if you feel what
> he prefers live isn't right for recording)

Drums are unique in being able to be "mixed" with EQ, so a
stereo feed is less of a hardship than some instruments.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Fredbob Jackson wrote:
<snip>
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> do this?
>
>
>


You can capture the MIDI data, then render it later. But synching
it with the other stuff might be a bit of a challenge

Reaper will capture both .wav and MIDI in synch together. You can then
use SFZ and a soundfont, or use the engine on the kit to print audio.

I have carried along an old, old sequencer ( from Win3.1 days ) that
offers the feature of "split by pitch", which seperates each drum in the
kit into its own MIDI track. It also allows aggregating tracks
back together. No clue what's current out there with this feature.

But be sure to capture the stereo out....

--
Les Cargill

[Danny T]

On May 25, 9:31*am, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. *I
> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> analog stereo out. *I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> very few overdubs. *With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> sure I can accomplish it. *My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> board. *But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. *Is
> that possible? *And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. *So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? *There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? *I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. *Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. *This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. *Is there a slicker way to
> do this?

You should probably go read a midi primer. here are a few links that
might help (below). Basically, you'll likely want to record what comes
from your midi cable into your software. Then later, you can assign
sounds to the midi notes in the midi track.
http://www.tweakheadz.com/midi_drum_tips.htm
http://www.cpmusic.com/midiinfo.html
http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eemusic/etext/MIDI/chapter3_MIDI.shtml

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:21:58 -0400, Les Cargill >
wrote:

>You can capture the MIDI data, then render it later. But synching
>it with the other stuff might be a bit of a challenge

Has the drummer ASKED you to replace his sounds with your own? If I
were the drummer, I'd consider it a bloody cheek!

Anyway, he's playing THOSE sounds. If his kit has any pretense to
being a musical instrument, his playing style constantly responds to
what he hears.

[polymod]

"Nono" > wrote in message
...
On 25 mei, 16:31, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
> that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> do this?

Can you explain what it is exactly that you want to record of the
drums?
Do you want to record the audio / sound into your recorder or the midi
information.
In the case of the latter you'll need a sequencer to record this midi
information in, you'll have to sync it to your multitrack recorder by
SMPTE or midi and you'll have the sound generator of the drum kit or
another sound generator (drum computer) at you disposal to produce the
audio / sounds for the sequenced midi track during the mix.
Being this new with midi this might be a problem to master in time to
do a good job and have a succesfull recording session.
Besides, it only makes sense to record midi if you're planning to use
other drum sounds in the mix than the ones that were used during
recording or if you want to change / edit the drum performance.

Should you just want to record the actual audio from the drum kit,
then you have to inform how many separate / individual audio outputs
this drum kit has.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

He did. It has a stereo out. That's it.
So he's going to have to do his mixing in the midi realm.

Poly

Poly

[Danny T]

On May 25, 3:23*pm, Laurence Payne > wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:21:58 -0400, Les Cargill >
> wrote:
>
> >You can capture the MIDI data, then render it later. But synching
> >it with the other stuff might be a bit of a challenge
>
> Has the drummer ASKED you to replace his sounds with your own? *If I
> were the drummer, I'd consider it a bloody cheek!
>
> Anyway, he's playing THOSE sounds. *If his kit has any pretense to
> being a musical instrument, his playing style constantly responds to
> what *he hears.

Laurence, Though you'd be right with that thought in most cases, you
are dealing with a drummer who plays electronic drums here :-)

[[email protected]]

LEs wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 May 2009 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT), Fredbob Jackson
>> > wrote:
>> Not really. The drummer's just playing a synth that happens to
>>look like a drum kit. Treat its audio outputs just as you would
>> microphones on a real kit. If the "brains" of his electronic kit
>>has separate outputs for separate instruments (and you have
>>sufficient recording channels) you'll have more mixing options.
>>Or maybe he'll just give you a stereo feed of the whole kit -
>>you'll have to accept the balance HE likes (or at least discuss
>>it with him if you feel what he prefers live isn't right for
>recording)
>Drums are unique in being able to be "mixed" with EQ, so a
>stereo feed is less of a hardship than some instruments.
AGreed, but you're not telling us what the client expects.
IF he's got a brain such as the old ALesis d-4 he's got
plenty of outs for you, 8 if I recall.
IF he really expects you to work with midi etc. HE'll want
to bring along the sequencer and the sequences, etc. THen
you'll need to do midi sync techniques with your hd-24.

Treat it like you would mics from his kit as the man says.
DOn't make a simple thing complex, unless the client has
expectations. IF they have expectations of sequencing the
drums for later manipulation with samples etc. then they'll
need to tell you what those expectations are, and chances
are provide the gear for it if you don't have it handy.
OTherwise, it's just another day in the studio for you.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

GOogle = usenet pollution.

[Les Cargill]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:21:58 -0400, Les Cargill >
> wrote:
>
>> You can capture the MIDI data, then render it later. But synching
>> it with the other stuff might be a bit of a challenge
>
> Has the drummer ASKED you to replace his sounds with your own? If I
> were the drummer, I'd consider it a bloody cheek!
>

We're staring with an electronic kit. Anything can happen from that.

> Anyway, he's playing THOSE sounds. If his kit has any pretense to
> being a musical instrument, his playing style constantly responds to
> what he hears.

Then the 2-track is the right solution.

--
Les Cargill

[Phil W]

Les Cargill wrote:
> Fredbob Jackson wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
>> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
>> will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
>> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
>> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
>> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
>> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop,
>> which will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a
>> MIDI file for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the
>> synth thing and generate .wav files, and then eventually,
>> miraculously, sync those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is
>> making those analog stereo outs look better and better. Is
>> there a slicker way to do this?
>
> You can capture the MIDI data, then render it later. But synching
> it with the other stuff might be a bit of a challenge
>
> Reaper will capture both .wav and MIDI in synch together. You can then
> use SFZ and a soundfont, or use the engine on the kit to print audio.

First off, a few links to the specs of the devices, the OP has mentioned:
http://www.roland.com/products/en/TD-6/specs.html
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3/summary.html
http://alesis.com/hd24 -> specs (no direct link possible)

That´s how I would approach it. Rather use the MOTU 828 mk3 than the HD24
and record everything directly into a computer, using a DAW software, which
can handle MIDI *and* audio, like Sonar, Samplitude, Cubase, Logic or
Reaper. The 828 has MIDI in and out + 10 audio inputs (2 out of them with
mic pre-amps). That should be sufficient for the average rock band.
Let´s do a bit of "calculating":
drums recorded through MIDI (for single channels in the mix) + 2 audio ins
for the stereo feed. That leaves 8 audio channels for the other
instruments...
2x guitar, 1x bass, 2x keyboard (if present, either 2 channels for 1
keyboard in stereo or 2 keyboards in mono), 3x vocals.
IF the OP needs more audio inputs, he can still use his HD24 (connected
through ADAT to the MOTU 828) to get 8 more audio input channels. It might
be necessary to establish an additional word clock connection between HD24
and MOTU 828 to keep them in sync, but that shouldn´t be too much of a
problem.

After doing the "live" recording of the whole band, the MIDI drum sounds can
either be used from a software-based "drum sampler/synth" plug-in, though
this will have different sounds than the Roland TD-6 sound module. If the
drummer wants the sounds from his TD-6, these have to be recorded as single
audio tracks. For this, connect the audio L/R outs of the TD-6 to 2 audio
inputs of the MOTU 828, while the 828´s MIDI OUT goes into the TD-6´s MIDI
IN.
As the TD-6 only has a stereo out, and every single drum or cymbal sound
will probably be some kind of "stereo image", every single MIDI track (for
each single drum/cymbal) has to be played back in the DAW software
sequencer, sending the MIDI notes to the TD-6, while recording the audio
inputs of the 828 to a stereo track (to keep the "stereo image" weighting
from the TD-6). This needs to be done for each single drum "instrument" in
real-time, so it´s a bit time-consuming. For example, if the drummer has 9
single controllers/triggers (kick, snare, 3x toms, hihat, 2x crash, 1x
ride), this means 9x 3-5 minutes (as an average song length) per song to
capture each drum item as a separate audio track...
If a drum plug-in is used, this is probably not necessary, as long as it
doesn´t eat up too much CPU and disk usage while mixing. In case, the drum
plug-in uses too much "computer power" to apply audio fx in the mix, it´s
still possible to render each single drum item in offline mode, which will
probably be significantly faster than real-time.
Anyway, the main question is, if the drummer wants to have "his usual" drum
sounds from the TD-6 in the recording or if he prefers different drum sounds
from a software plug-in.
From my *limited* experience with electronic drum sets and their sound
modules, I´d personally often prefer the drum sounds from plug-ins like
EZdrummer, BFD or so, cause the few e-drums sound modules I´ve heard yet
sound somewhat cheesy and "cheap" to me - like in cheap, old GM keyboards.

> I have carried along an old, old sequencer ( from Win3.1 days ) that
> offers the feature of "split by pitch", which seperates each drum in
> the kit into its own MIDI track. It also allows aggregating tracks
> back together. No clue what's current out there with this feature.

As far as I know, this is pretty standard with all, or at least most,
MIDI+audio DAW software sequencers until today. It´s possible to split MIDI
files either by channel or pitch to single tracks. This usually also works
vice versa...

> But be sure to capture the stereo out....

....and make sure, that the drummer gives you the best-balanced mix possible
for that! ;-)


Phil

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

A certain amount of recording engineer hubris getting into this thread
:-)

"I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit."

No-one's asked you to produce them. The drummer hasn't asked for
advice how to get better sounds. I'm sure he could get hold of a real
kit if he wanted to. But this is what he uses. Record it.

[Nono]

On 25 mei, 23:13, "polymod" > wrote:
> "Nono" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On 25 mei, 16:31, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
> > don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> > and it looks like that time has come.
>
> > I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> > that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> > level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> > These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> > a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> > The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> > analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> > able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> > The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> > very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> > sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> > into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> > board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> > MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> > of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
> > that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> > talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> > I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> > that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> > will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> > record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> > bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> > need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> > MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> > will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> > for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> > and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> > those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> > analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> > do this?
>
> Can you explain what it is exactly that you want to record of the
> drums?
> Do you want to record the audio / sound into your recorder or the midi
> information.
> In the case of the latter you'll need a sequencer to record this midi
> information in, you'll have to sync it to your multitrack recorder by
> SMPTE or midi and you'll have the sound generator of the drum kit or
> another sound generator (drum computer) at you disposal to produce the
> audio / sounds for the sequenced midi track during the mix.
> Being this new with midi this might be a problem to master in time to
> do a good job and have a succesfull recording session.
> Besides, it only makes sense to record midi if you're planning to use
> other drum sounds in the mix than the ones that were used during
> recording or if you want to change / edit the drum performance.
>
> Should you just want to record the actual audio from the drum kit,
> then you have to inform how many separate / individual audio outputs
> this drum kit has.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
> He did. It has a stereo out. That's it.
> So he's going to have to do his mixing in the midi realm.
>
> Poly
>
> Poly- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -


The reason I suggested him to ask is because I know that normally
these modules have stereo outs as well as individual outputs.
If you check http://www.rmcaudio.com/roland/pics/td6v_lg.htm for the
pictures of a Roland TD-6 module that I just googled up, you'll
understand what I mean.

Best regards.

[Nono]

On 26 mei, 16:48, Nono > wrote:
> On 25 mei, 23:13, "polymod" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Nono" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> > On 25 mei, 16:31, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
>
> > > I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
> > > don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> > > and it looks like that time has come.
>
> > > I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> > > that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> > > level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> > > These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> > > a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> > > The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> > > analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> > > able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> > > The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> > > very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> > > sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> > > into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> > > board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> > > MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> > > of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
> > > that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> > > talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> > > I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> > > that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> > > will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> > > record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> > > bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> > > need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> > > MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> > > will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> > > for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> > > and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> > > those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> > > analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> > > do this?
>
> > Can you explain what it is exactly that you want to record of the
> > drums?
> > Do you want to record the audio / sound into your recorder or the midi
> > information.
> > In the case of the latter you'll need a sequencer to record this midi
> > information in, you'll have to sync it to your multitrack recorder by
> > SMPTE or midi and you'll have the sound generator of the drum kit or
> > another sound generator (drum computer) at you disposal to produce the
> > audio / sounds for the sequenced midi track during the mix.
> > Being this new with midi this might be a problem to master in time to
> > do a good job and have a succesfull recording session.
> > Besides, it only makes sense to record midi if you're planning to use
> > other drum sounds in the mix than the ones that were used during
> > recording or if you want to change / edit the drum performance.
>
> > Should you just want to record the actual audio from the drum kit,
> > then you have to inform how many separate / individual audio outputs
> > this drum kit has.
>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
> > He did. It has a stereo out. That's it.
> > So he's going to have to do his mixing in the midi realm.
>
> > Poly
>
> > Poly- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
> The reason I suggested him to ask is because I know that normally
> these modules have stereo outs as well as individual outputs.
> If you checkhttp://www.rmcaudio.com/roland/pics/td6v_lg.htmfor the
> pictures of a Roland TD-6 module that I just googled up, you'll
> understand what I mean.
>
> Best regards.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

CORRECTION!?!
My bad; paying closer attention now I see that what I saw as
individual outputs are TRIGGER INPUTS.
YOU ARE RIGHT after all.

Best regards.

[drichard]

Hi Freebob,

Pretty much any modern electronic drum "brain" has individual outputs
for the various drum sounds. I would suggest you use them, if
possibile, but if not use the stereo output.

Trust me on this one - it is a very bad idea for a novice at MIDI to
record a MIDI stream from electronic drums and try to play it back
through other samples later. I've done it, and believe me, you don't
want to. There are timing issues (there is something called "MIDI
latency" to contend with) double hits, variations in dynamics from the
original drum brain to the sampled drums, etc. etc. I consider myself
extremely knowledgeable about MIDI, and I don't like doing it. For a
novice, it is almost certain to be more hassle than you will want to
deal with. Worse, the drummer will never be happy because it won't
sound like what he hears.

Again, record the drums as audio. Stereo if necessary, but using the
individual outputs if possible. You will never know how much grief you
will have saved yourself.

Dean



The drummer will hate you, and you will become very frustrated.

On May 25, 9:31*am, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
> I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. *I
> don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> and it looks like that time has come.
>
> I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> analog stereo out. *I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> very few overdubs. *With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> sure I can accomplish it. *My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> board. *But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. *Is
> that possible? *And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> will have to be generated offline. *So if that’s the case, how do I
> record them and eventually get them to .wav files? *There must be a
> bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? *I’m assuming I
> need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> for each drum. *Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. *This is making those
> analog stereo outs look better and better. *Is there a slicker way to
> do this?

[[email protected]]

On 2009-05-26 said:
>A certain amount of recording engineer hubris getting into this
>thread :-)
>"I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit."
>No-one's asked you to produce them. The drummer hasn't asked for
>advice how to get better sounds. I'm sure he could get hold of a
>real kit if he wanted to. But this is what he uses. Record it.
But, the way it is. IF they have other expectations sounds
like our original poster had best find out beforehand.
OTherwise, plug the outs of the drum brain into a couple
channels of di, arm tracks, hit red.

tHis is still why I liked the old Alesis d-4. EIght
discreet outs!!!




Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Fredbob Jackson]

I appreciate all the good input.

Here's what will happen. I'll record the MIDI out of the TD-6, and
use it to perhaps learn something, offline. I'll use the stereo outs
for the real mix. If, after the fact, we want to beef up the kick on
one tune, mellow out the snare or ride on another tune or whatever
(the stuff you sometimes do when recording a real drum kit), I'll see
if the drummer is into tweaking the settings in the TD-6, and we can
re-take. Otherwise, we live with it. I will also investigate a brain/
synth with an analog out for each drum/cymbal. And, I'll start
reading up on (and hopefully experiment a bit with) MIDI.

Good stuff, folks.

FB

[Nono]

On 26 mei, 18:36, wrote:
> On 2009-05-26 said:
> * *>A certain amount of recording engineer hubris getting into this
> * *>thread :-)
> * *>"I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit."
> * *>No-one's asked you to produce them. *The drummer hasn't asked for
> * *>advice how to get better sounds. *I'm sure he could get hold of a
> * *>real kit if he wanted to. *But this is what he uses. *Record it.
> But, the way it is. *IF they have other expectations sounds
> like our original poster had best find out beforehand.
> OTherwise, plug the outs of the drum brain into a couple
> channels of di, arm tracks, hit red.
>
> tHis is still why I liked the old Alesis d-4. *EIght
> discreet outs!!!
>
> Richard webb,
> replace anything before at with elspider

Another idea is to ask the band or drummer to find, borrow or rent a
sampler, drumcomputer with sounds to his liking, providing it has
separate outs, or the module of this Alesis d-4, connect it to the
midi out/tru of the Roland and record to separate tracks.
Besides more control at the mixing stage this also gives more
possibilities during tracking for little corrections of any individual
instrument/track separately, if necessary.

[polymod]

"Nono" > wrote in message
...
On 26 mei, 16:48, Nono > wrote:
> On 25 mei, 23:13, "polymod" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Nono" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On 25 mei, 16:31, Fredbob Jackson > wrote:
>
> > > I’ve been asked to record a band that uses an electronic drum kit. I
> > > don’t know much about MIDI; I knew I’d need to learn it eventually,
> > > and it looks like that time has come.
>
> > > I do know some of the basics, like that the “samples” coming out of
> > > that MIDI jack aren’t audio, they are basically a time tag, a volume
> > > level, and a drumhead location, for each drum, each time it was hit.
> > > These samples can be run into any number of MIDI synthesizers, eg, for
> > > a Yamaha kit, a Pearl kit, whatever.
>
> > > The brain on that drum kit is a Roland TD-6, which has MIDI out and
> > > analog stereo out. I want to keep the stereo option as Plan B, and be
> > > able to control each of the drums individually when mixing.
>
> > > The bulk of the recording needs to be done in a live fashion, ie, with
> > > very few overdubs. With my limited knowledge on the subject, I’m not
> > > sure I can accomplish it. My setup for a “normal” recording is: snake
> > > into pre’s, pre’s to recorder (Alesis HD-24), recorder outputs to
> > > board. But it seems that for the drum kit I need to come out of the
> > > MIDI jack on the TD-6, into some sort of synth, get an analog line out
> > > of that synth for each drum/cymbal, and send those to the HD-24. Is
> > > that possible? And even if it is, what kind of latency might we be
> > > talking about through a typical synth, on the drum kit lines?
>
> > > I’ll use the analog stereo from the TD-6 for monitoring, rough mixes,
> > > that sort of thing, but I’m thinking that the drums for the real mix
> > > will have to be generated offline. So if that’s the case, how do I
> > > record them and eventually get them to .wav files? There must be a
> > > bozillion tools for this sort of thing in existence? I’m assuming I
> > > need to run the MIDI line out of the TD-6 into an interface (I have a
> > > MOTU 828 mk3), and then into some software, running in a laptop, which
> > > will produce a MIDI file (whatever that is), or hopefully, a MIDI file
> > > for each drum. Then take the MIDI file/files and do the synth thing
> > > and generate .wav files, and then eventually, miraculously, sync
> > > those .wav’s to the rest of the band’s stuff. This is making those
> > > analog stereo outs look better and better. Is there a slicker way to
> > > do this?
>
> > Can you explain what it is exactly that you want to record of the
> > drums?
> > Do you want to record the audio / sound into your recorder or the midi
> > information.
> > In the case of the latter you'll need a sequencer to record this midi
> > information in, you'll have to sync it to your multitrack recorder by
> > SMPTE or midi and you'll have the sound generator of the drum kit or
> > another sound generator (drum computer) at you disposal to produce the
> > audio / sounds for the sequenced midi track during the mix.
> > Being this new with midi this might be a problem to master in time to
> > do a good job and have a succesfull recording session.
> > Besides, it only makes sense to record midi if you're planning to use
> > other drum sounds in the mix than the ones that were used during
> > recording or if you want to change / edit the drum performance.
>
> > Should you just want to record the actual audio from the drum kit,
> > then you have to inform how many separate / individual audio outputs
> > this drum kit has.
>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
> > He did. It has a stereo out. That's it.
> > So he's going to have to do his mixing in the midi realm.
>
> > Poly
>
> > Poly- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
> The reason I suggested him to ask is because I know that normally
> these modules have stereo outs as well as individual outputs.
> If you checkhttp://www.rmcaudio.com/roland/pics/td6v_lg.htmfor the
> pictures of a Roland TD-6 module that I just googled up, you'll
> understand what I mean.
>
> Best regards.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

CORRECTION!?!
My bad; paying closer attention now I see that what I saw as
individual outputs are TRIGGER INPUTS.
YOU ARE RIGHT after all.

Best regards.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hehe...no problem my friend.
googling was the first thing I did!

Best,
Poly

[[email protected]]

On 2009-05-26 said:
>> This is still why I liked the old Alesis d-4. ÿEIght
>> discreet outs!!!
>Another idea is to ask the band or drummer to find, borrow or rent a
>sampler, drumcomputer with sounds to his liking, providing it has
>separate outs, or the module of this Alesis d-4, connect it to the
>midi out/tru of the Roland and record to separate tracks.
>Besides more control at the mixing stage this also gives more
>possibilities during tracking for little corrections of any
>individual instrument/track separately, if necessary.

THat's your best bet. The d-4 didn't have bad drum sounds
imho. TO be honest, that's the one thing I never liked
about the ROland drum brains I saw, such as the td-10, if
I'm recalling the nomenclature correctly. Just the stereo
outs, not enough control for my liking. I"ve never been
fond of the rolad drumbrains anyway, their pads and triggers
were great, but I used to talk electronic kit players into
using my d-4 back in the day. Just make sure his drum brain
is talking to the Alesis or whatever drum module you choose
on the same midi channel, often with ROland stuff default
for drums is channel 10, and my d-4 was set up for ch10 as
its default. ROck on!!!

IN fact, if you think you'll be working with these clients
more in the future, or others with same setup you might want
to look for a d-4 on sleazebay or something. MIne burnt in
the after the hurricane fire or I'd still have it.



Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Tony[_11_]]

On Tue, 26 May 2009 08:12:06 -0700 (PDT), drichard > wrote:

>Hi Freebob,
>
>Pretty much any modern electronic drum "brain" has individual outputs
>for the various drum sounds. I would suggest you use them, if
>possibile, but if not use the stereo output.
>
>Trust me on this one - it is a very bad idea for a novice at MIDI to
>record a MIDI stream from electronic drums and try to play it back
>through other samples later. I've done it, and believe me, you don't
>want to. There are timing issues (there is something called "MIDI
>latency" to contend with) double hits, variations in dynamics from the
>original drum brain to the sampled drums, etc. etc. I consider myself
>extremely knowledgeable about MIDI, and I don't like doing it. For a
>novice, it is almost certain to be more hassle than you will want to
>deal with. Worse, the drummer will never be happy because it won't
>sound like what he hears.
>
>Again, record the drums as audio. Stereo if necessary, but using the
>individual outputs if possible. You will never know how much grief you
>will have saved yourself.
>
>Dean

He doesn't have individual outputs, and stereo is a risk because he can't even tweak the
balance later if needed. But he can record stereo AND MIDI; if he can't get what is needed
from the stereo, maybe he can get the TD6 into the studio, feed the recorded MIDI back
into it, and tweak the levels, tuning, fx etc until its's right. Ideally the drummer would
be there too and take part in it, as he will then be able to set up his TD6 for the best
possible FOH and recording mix. Either way, the drummer has probably gotten the sound
petty close to optimal, (ie, the stereo is probably not far off the mark), and this
exercise can quite easily get it right on the money, without any MIDI editing at all. If
anyone wants something more, enter MIDI editing, VSTis, DXis etc, but I can't see that
being needed.

Tony.