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View Full Version : Re: Stringing together 100 tweeters


NotImportant
February 16th 09, 01:33 PM
On Feb 14, 3:51*pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
> "NotImportant" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 2:30 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> >> NotImportant > wrote:
> >> > On Feb 10, 11:47 pm, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> >> >> NotImportant > wrote:
>
> >> > If I use a timer to do the switch over
> >> > do you think it is safe, for the amplifier and the tweeters, to use a
> >> > contactor without first having a way to lower the volume first ? *How
> >> > would the volume be lowered automatically before the switch over ?
>
> >> As I see this what you suggest is more stuff that could fail, imo you
> >> would
> >> reduce the mean time between failures rather than increase it.
>
> > * Hi Peter,
>
> > * * * I may still want to parallel the amp output and switch over at
> > regular interval. My concern is the spike that would be created upon
> > sudden shutting off of the amp. Would it help if I have a resistor
> > shunt to ground - let's say 100 Ohm ?
>
> > * * * *The power in the tweeters could then be channelled to ground
> > before the new amp come on. *The power loss in the resistor is very
> > minimal but it would help prevent dangerous spikes.
>
> > * *Your opinion is much appreciated. Thanks.
>
> PMJI, but I really don't think you need to be concerned about spikes. They
> shouldn't occur, but even if they do, why would spikes be any worse than the
> intended signal? And piezo tweeters are not fragile.
>
> I also wonder why you feel you need two amplifiers, except for backup in
> case one failed. In that case, you could simply turn off the dead one and
> swap in the good one. For as frequently as you should need to do it, quick
> disconnect speaker jacks would work just fine. Solid state audio amplifiers
> are generally very reliable, and as long as the load and the signal remain
> within the amplifier's rated capabilities, the amplifier could run for many
> years without any attention whatsoever.
>
> Case in point, I worked at a radio station that used a cheap Radio Shack 30
> watt solid state PA amplifier to feed the station's off-the-air program
> audio to dozens of 25-volt ceiling speakers all around the facility. The
> audio was not amplifier-friendly: compressed, with a very low
> peak-to-average ratio, and at night there was a strong 10 KHz whistle from
> adjacent channels. The amplifier ran at nearly full output, 24x7, for the
> six years that I worked there, with never any down time whatsoever (except
> for unplanned power failures). It sat high on a shelf in a hot furnace room
> the whole time. It was running on my first day working there, and it was
> running on my last day working there. I blew the dust off of it a few times.
> The heat sinks were always too hot to touch. Part of its longevity
> undoubtedly was due to the fact that it had no moving parts. There was no
> fan to gum up and stop, or to draw dust through the works.
>
> Which occurs to me... PA amplifiers with 25-volt outputs are typically the
> way to drive multiple speaker arrays. The speakers usually bridge the
> transmission line at various points along the way, using matching
> transformers, but I think you could probably bridge piezo tweeters directly.
> You would need actual performance data on the tweeters to determine how many
> you could put on the line, and how many watts the amplifier would need.


Thanks for the input.

My view was that when you are driving 100s of watts into a load
and suddenly turning it off will result in a huge spike if these
energy has no way to go. I was thinking of connecting a 100 Ohm / 10
Watt or 10 Ohm/10 watt to ground at the amplifier output so that when
the amplifier is switched off the energy has a path to ground before
the next amplifier is turnd on.

But I think your advice is well noted and I will follow this.

Thanks again.

Karl Uppiano[_2_]
February 17th 09, 02:56 AM
"NotImportant" > wrote in message
...
> On Feb 14, 3:51 pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
>> "NotImportant" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 12, 2:30 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
>> >> NotImportant > wrote:
>> >> > On Feb 10, 11:47 pm, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
>> >> >> NotImportant > wrote:
>>
>> >> > If I use a timer to do the switch over
>> >> > do you think it is safe, for the amplifier and the tweeters, to use
>> >> > a
>> >> > contactor without first having a way to lower the volume first ?
>> >> > How
>> >> > would the volume be lowered automatically before the switch over ?
>>
>> >> As I see this what you suggest is more stuff that could fail, imo you
>> >> would
>> >> reduce the mean time between failures rather than increase it.
>>
>> > Hi Peter,
>>
>> > I may still want to parallel the amp output and switch over at
>> > regular interval. My concern is the spike that would be created upon
>> > sudden shutting off of the amp. Would it help if I have a resistor
>> > shunt to ground - let's say 100 Ohm ?
>>
>> > The power in the tweeters could then be channelled to ground
>> > before the new amp come on. The power loss in the resistor is very
>> > minimal but it would help prevent dangerous spikes.
>>
>> > Your opinion is much appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>> PMJI, but I really don't think you need to be concerned about spikes.
>> They
>> shouldn't occur, but even if they do, why would spikes be any worse than
>> the
>> intended signal? And piezo tweeters are not fragile.
>>
>> I also wonder why you feel you need two amplifiers, except for backup in
>> case one failed. In that case, you could simply turn off the dead one and
>> swap in the good one. For as frequently as you should need to do it,
>> quick
>> disconnect speaker jacks would work just fine. Solid state audio
>> amplifiers
>> are generally very reliable, and as long as the load and the signal
>> remain
>> within the amplifier's rated capabilities, the amplifier could run for
>> many
>> years without any attention whatsoever.
>>
>> Case in point, I worked at a radio station that used a cheap Radio Shack
>> 30
>> watt solid state PA amplifier to feed the station's off-the-air program
>> audio to dozens of 25-volt ceiling speakers all around the facility. The
>> audio was not amplifier-friendly: compressed, with a very low
>> peak-to-average ratio, and at night there was a strong 10 KHz whistle
>> from
>> adjacent channels. The amplifier ran at nearly full output, 24x7, for the
>> six years that I worked there, with never any down time whatsoever
>> (except
>> for unplanned power failures). It sat high on a shelf in a hot furnace
>> room
>> the whole time. It was running on my first day working there, and it was
>> running on my last day working there. I blew the dust off of it a few
>> times.
>> The heat sinks were always too hot to touch. Part of its longevity
>> undoubtedly was due to the fact that it had no moving parts. There was no
>> fan to gum up and stop, or to draw dust through the works.
>>
>> Which occurs to me... PA amplifiers with 25-volt outputs are typically
>> the
>> way to drive multiple speaker arrays. The speakers usually bridge the
>> transmission line at various points along the way, using matching
>> transformers, but I think you could probably bridge piezo tweeters
>> directly.
>> You would need actual performance data on the tweeters to determine how
>> many
>> you could put on the line, and how many watts the amplifier would need.
>
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> My view was that when you are driving 100s of watts into a load
> and suddenly turning it off will result in a huge spike if these
> energy has no way to go. I was thinking of connecting a 100 Ohm / 10
> Watt or 10 Ohm/10 watt to ground at the amplifier output so that when
> the amplifier is switched off the energy has a path to ground before
> the next amplifier is turnd on.

The energy goes where all the energy goes... it dissipates as audio and as
heat. Turning off the amplifier is no different than if the audio stops
suddenly (because the orchestra stops playing, or you hit stop on the CD
player). It isn't as if you have 100 watts circulating around in the system
with nowhere to go. It is exiting the speakers as fast as the amplifier
generates it. There is simply no need to try to "absorb" it. It simply
wastes power that would otherwise go to create sound, and makes the
amplifier work harder. It will actually reduce overall reliability.

NotImportant
February 17th 09, 07:53 AM
On Feb 17, 10:56*am, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
> "NotImportant" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 14, 3:51 pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
> >> "NotImportant" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> >> > On Feb 12, 2:30 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> >> >> NotImportant > wrote:
> >> >> > On Feb 10, 11:47 pm, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:
> >> >> >> NotImportant > wrote:
>
> >> >> > If I use a timer to do the switch over
> >> >> > do you think it is safe, for the amplifier and the tweeters, to use
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > contactor without first having a way to lower the volume first ?
> >> >> > How
> >> >> > would the volume be lowered automatically before the switch over ?
>
> >> >> As I see this what you suggest is more stuff that could fail, imo you
> >> >> would
> >> >> reduce the mean time between failures rather than increase it.
>
> >> > * Hi Peter,
>
> >> > * * * I may still want to parallel the amp output and switch over at
> >> > regular interval. My concern is the spike that would be created upon
> >> > sudden shutting off of the amp. Would it help if I have a resistor
> >> > shunt to ground - let's say 100 Ohm ?
>
> >> > * * * *The power in the tweeters could then be channelled to ground
> >> > before the new amp come on. *The power loss in the resistor is very
> >> > minimal but it would help prevent dangerous spikes.
>
> >> > * *Your opinion is much appreciated. Thanks.
>
> >> PMJI, but I really don't think you need to be concerned about spikes.
> >> They
> >> shouldn't occur, but even if they do, why would spikes be any worse than
> >> the
> >> intended signal? And piezo tweeters are not fragile.
>
> >> I also wonder why you feel you need two amplifiers, except for backup in
> >> case one failed. In that case, you could simply turn off the dead one and
> >> swap in the good one. For as frequently as you should need to do it,
> >> quick
> >> disconnect speaker jacks would work just fine. Solid state audio
> >> amplifiers
> >> are generally very reliable, and as long as the load and the signal
> >> remain
> >> within the amplifier's rated capabilities, the amplifier could run for
> >> many
> >> years without any attention whatsoever.
>
> >> Case in point, I worked at a radio station that used a cheap Radio Shack
> >> 30
> >> watt solid state PA amplifier to feed the station's off-the-air program
> >> audio to dozens of 25-volt ceiling speakers all around the facility. The
> >> audio was not amplifier-friendly: compressed, with a very low
> >> peak-to-average ratio, and at night there was a strong 10 KHz whistle
> >> from
> >> adjacent channels. The amplifier ran at nearly full output, 24x7, for the
> >> six years that I worked there, with never any down time whatsoever
> >> (except
> >> for unplanned power failures). It sat high on a shelf in a hot furnace
> >> room
> >> the whole time. It was running on my first day working there, and it was
> >> running on my last day working there. I blew the dust off of it a few
> >> times.
> >> The heat sinks were always too hot to touch. Part of its longevity
> >> undoubtedly was due to the fact that it had no moving parts. There was no
> >> fan to gum up and stop, or to draw dust through the works.
>
> >> Which occurs to me... PA amplifiers with 25-volt outputs are typically
> >> the
> >> way to drive multiple speaker arrays. The speakers usually bridge the
> >> transmission line at various points along the way, using matching
> >> transformers, but I think you could probably bridge piezo tweeters
> >> directly.
> >> You would need actual performance data on the tweeters to determine how
> >> many
> >> you could put on the line, and how many watts the amplifier would need..
>
> > * Thanks for the input.
>
> > * *My view was that when you are driving 100s of watts into a load
> > and suddenly turning it off will result in a huge spike if these
> > energy has no way to go. *I was thinking of connecting a 100 Ohm / 10
> > Watt or 10 Ohm/10 watt to ground at the amplifier output so that when
> > the amplifier is switched off the energy has a path to ground before
> > the next amplifier is turnd on.
>
> The energy goes where all the energy goes... it dissipates as audio and as
> heat. Turning off the amplifier is no different than if the audio stops
> suddenly (because the orchestra stops playing, or you hit stop on the CD
> player). It isn't as if you have 100 watts circulating around in the system
> with nowhere to go. It is exiting the speakers as fast as the amplifier
> generates it. There is simply no need to try to "absorb" it. It simply
> wastes power that would otherwise go to create sound, and makes the
> amplifier work harder. It will actually reduce overall reliability.


Point noted. Thank you.