Re: PZM mics and pianos (repost from RAPro)

[MiNe 109]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> My ancient Shure PZM is taped in place on the underside of the Kawai grand's
> lid with Scotch industrial-strength double-sided adhesive tape. Right over
> the middle of the metal frame. The tape came from Staples and is very
> effective at everything but being removable. I don't know if it will ever be
> removed.
>
> When the piano went in for a thorough rebuild, the mic was left in place.
> It's been there for at least 5 years. I spent about a year using carpet tape
> to attach the mic, moving it around for best sound. Carpet tape would start
> loosening after a few weeks. I eventually found the current attachment
> point.
>
> It takes a ton of parametric eq to make the signal from the PZM have nearly
> the same tone as the live tone of that piano, but it is worth it the
> trouble. Right now, all that happens when I boost the gain on the PZM is
> that it gets louder. All the gain I want and no problems with feedback on
> that mic. It blends almost perfectly with its natural sound out in the
> room.

That explains that.

Stephen

[Arny Krueger]

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message


Only 13 minutes after I posted to RAP, Stephen the Stalker posts this on
RAO:

> >, "Arny
> Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> My ancient Shure PZM is taped in place on the underside
>> of the Kawai grand's lid with Scotch industrial-strength
>> double-sided adhesive tape. Right over the middle of the
>> metal frame. The tape came from Staples and is very
>> effective at everything but being removable. I don't
>> know if it will ever be removed.

>> When the piano went in for a thorough rebuild, the mic
>> was left in place. It's been there for at least 5 years.
>> I spent about a year using carpet tape to attach the
>> mic, moving it around for best sound. Carpet tape would
>> start loosening after a few weeks. I eventually found
>> the current attachment point.

>> It takes a ton of parametric eq to make the signal from
>> the PZM have nearly the same tone as the live tone of
>> that piano, but it is worth it the trouble. Right now,
>> all that happens when I boost the gain on the PZM is
>> that it gets louder. All the gain I want and no problems
>> with feedback on that mic. It blends almost perfectly
>> with its natural sound out in the room.
>
> That explains that.

Wow Stephen, your name *is* Legion. ;-)

What I didn't mention is that is what I do for live sound. For recording, I
use a more conventional setup.

[Clyde Slick]

On 3 Feb, 08:19, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
>
>
> Only 13 minutes after I posted to RAP, Stephen the Stalker posts this on
> RAO:
>

I have tracked some of your responses to be in LESS than a minute

[Arny Krueger]

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> On 3 Feb, 08:19, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>> Only 13 minutes after I posted to RAP, Stephen the
>> Stalker posts this on RAO:

> I have tracked some of your responses to be in LESS than
> a minute

Luck of the draw.

[MiNe 109]

In article
>,
Clyde Slick > wrote:

> On 3 Feb, 08:19, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> > "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> >
> > Only 13 minutes after I posted to RAP, Stephen the Stalker posts this on
> > RAO:
> >
>
> I have tracked some of your responses to be in LESS than a minute

Like posts care how long they've been up.

Stephen

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Harry Lavo" > wrote in message
>
>
>snip<

> Yes, a grand piano can and should be able to project its own voice, and
> with vocalists and even a choir. Any duel between a grand piano and an
> organ will be settled by the organist, if he so chooses.
>

In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an organ and a piano
play at the same time. You must have the most musically illiterate church
in the Greater Detroit area.
Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job.....

>> Electric guitars that can't project?
>
> Now you're talking trash, Harry. Apparently you're the only person in the
> world who doesn't know that without amplification, electric guitars make
> quiet little plinging sounds.

An electric guitar is quite sufficient with its own amplifier, Arny. That's
all that is needed, as you might know if you ever let it be played without
plugging it into a patch bay.

>
>> This is probably you own doing.
>
> Aye canna overcome the laws of physics, Capt'n.
>

But you can make them worse, can't you? LOL.

>snip<

[Herbert Hoover[_3_]]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:14:33 -0500, "Harry Lavo" >
wrote:


<snipped for clarity>

>In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an organ and a piano
>play at the same time. You must have the most musically illiterate church
>in the Greater Detroit area.
>Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job.....


OMIgawd....I probably shouldn't say this, Harry, but I think I'm
falling in love


Hoobert

[MiNe 109]

In article >,
"Harry Lavo" > wrote:

> In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an organ and a piano
> play at the same time.

Sadly, there is a sub-genre of organ and piano music out there, usually
with Hammond registration included.

Stephen

[Jenn[_3_]]

In article >,
MiNe 109 > wrote:

> In article >,
> "Harry Lavo" > wrote:
>
> > In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an organ and a piano
> > play at the same time.
>
> Sadly, there is a sub-genre of organ and piano music out there, usually
> with Hammond registration included.
>
> Stephen

Yep. And, some churches simply have the organ and piano double each
other or kind of "split" the arrangement.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> MiNe 109 > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> "Harry Lavo" > wrote:
>>
>> > In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an organ and a
>> > piano
>> > play at the same time.
>>
>> Sadly, there is a sub-genre of organ and piano music out there, usually
>> with Hammond registration included.
>>
>> Stephen
>
> Yep. And, some churches simply have the organ and piano double each
> other or kind of "split" the arrangement.

Oh Gawd!

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Feb 3, 3:27*pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> However, just lately I did a funeral
> with the pianist/organist who recommended them. We didn't talk about those
> particular old times.

Did the same thing kill you both?

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Harry Lavo" > wrote in message
...
>

> I saw this over on RAO and almost beat you to the punch, Stephen. This is
> the man who dares to criticize the rest of us for using our discriminatory
> powers to sort good sound from bad. First he helps sell the good pianos
> to buy a cheap one. Then he mikes the cheap one in a live acoustic
> church. My good Arny, if you can't hear a bright grand piano in a live
> acoustic church (almost no matter how large) without miking, then you are
> at least half-deaf. Either that, or whomever is playing, can't.

Harry. It has become clear, to me at least, that if Arny
has to make a choice bertween two decisions, he will
pick the wrong one. Making a decent recording involves
"dozens" of well.-informed decisions. This explains his
spectacular and consistent failure rate in > 1000 projects.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" > wrote in message


> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...

>> "Harry Lavo" > wrote in message
>>

>> Yes, a grand piano can and should be able to project its
>> own voice, and with vocalists and even a choir. Any
>> duel between a grand piano and an organ will be settled
>> by the organist, if he so chooses.

> In all my years of going to church, I have never heard an
> organ and a piano play at the same time.

Speaks to your musical naiveté, Harry. Let me guess - the church you attend
for Christmas and Easter is *not* a modern thriving evangelical church.

In your neck of the woods, one well known example of such a church would be
The Brooklyn Tabernacle. Iain should never go there, they are known to play
the tambourine. ;-)

http://www.brooklyntabernacle.org/

Check Amazon for their current discography (110 hits). Six Grammies, and
numerous recordings. Several of their recordings list "traditional gospel
instrumentation (piano, Hammond organ, bass, and drums)".

Try searching on "piano and organ duets", Harry. Google reports a mere
135,000 hits.

This is a hoot. Harry is so arrogant and stupid that he thinks that a
popular category of music that has been around the better part of a century
or more, doesn't even exist!

> You must have the most musically illiterate church in the Greater
> Detroit area.

Harry, you're the musical illiterate. Before you opened your pie hole, you
should have searched on "piano and organ duets". Google reports a mere
135,000 hits. Some of the best-known musical churches in the country feature
the use of piano and organ together.

> Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job...

Obviously Harry, my church is a little more musically diverse than yours.
BTW, what kind of church is that?

>>> Electric guitars that can't project?

>> Now you're talking trash, Harry. Apparently you're the
>> only person in the world who doesn't know that without
>> amplification, electric guitars make quiet little
>> plinging sounds.

> An electric guitar is quite sufficient with its own
> amplifier, Arny.

What you don't know about modern live sound will fill a large book, Harry.

A guitarist with his own amplifier is like a loose cannon in a musical group
of appreciable size, playing in an appreciable-sized venue. Guitar amps work
fine for solo players in small groups, subways and small bars. Hook an
electric guitar up to a good sound system and you have someone in the
seating area balancing it with the rest of the players and singers. You have
routing and control for recording. You have routing and control for
monitoring, or as retrograde technically-obsolete, technically uninformed
people like Iain call it "foldback".

> That's all that is needed, as you might
> know if you ever let it be played without plugging it
> into a patch bay.

More senseless ignorant prattle from a live sound and modern instrument
total nincompoop.

Harry, if one wants to use an electric guitar as a large group, large venue
instrument, it gets plugged into some kind of active or passive interface
box, the simplest of which is the direct box. The most complex of which may
be a whole group of stomp boxes and DSP-based tonal enhancement devices.

Harry, I can tell that you've never even been close enough to a live stage
in even a relatively small venue (but with 100's of seats) to see what the
current technology looks like, let alone know how it works.

Guitar pickups are as a rule high impedance devices, and need some kind of
matching transformer or buffer fi their signal is to travel any appreciable
distance.

[Arny Krueger]

"Hoobert Heaver" > wrote in message

> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:14:33 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
> > wrote:
>
>
> <snipped for clarity>
>
>> In all my years of going to church, I have never heard
>> an organ and a piano play at the same time. You must
>> have the most musically illiterate church in the Greater
>> Detroit area.
>> Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job.....
>
>
> OMIgawd....I probably shouldn't say this, Harry, but I
> think I'm falling in love
>

Hoobert, I think you posted this before you saw that Harry's comment was so
egregious that even Jenn and Stephen had to correct it. Good thing you
aren't posting under you real name, or your friends would be cracking up
behind your back.

[Herbert Hoover[_3_]]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:01:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Hoobert Heaver" > wrote in message

>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:14:33 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snipped for clarity>
>>
>>> In all my years of going to church, I have never heard
>>> an organ and a piano play at the same time. You must
>>> have the most musically illiterate church in the Greater
>>> Detroit area.
>>> Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job.....
>>
>>
>> OMIgawd....I probably shouldn't say this, Harry, but I
>> think I'm falling in love
>>
>
>Hoobert, I think you posted this before you saw that Harry's comment was so
>egregious that even Jenn and Stephen had to correct it. Good thing you
>aren't posting under you real name, or your friends would be cracking up
>behind your back.
>
Truthfully, Arnie, I don't remember.........which doesn't detract from
the great humor in his response.

I hope my friends *are* cracking up behind my back....also in front
and even sideways. Why else hang around here? Besides, most of us
admit to making mistakes and aren't undone by them, so who the hell
cares?

Oh.

That's right.

You do.


Hoobert

[MiNe 109]

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:01:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Hoobert Heaver" > wrote in message
>
> >> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:14:33 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> <snipped for clarity>
> >>
> >>> In all my years of going to church, I have never heard
> >>> an organ and a piano play at the same time. You must
> >>> have the most musically illiterate church in the Greater
> >>> Detroit area.
> >>> Hmm....maybe that is how you got the job.....
> >>
> >>
> >> OMIgawd....I probably shouldn't say this, Harry, but I
> >> think I'm falling in love
> >>
> >
> >Hoobert, I think you posted this before you saw that Harry's comment was so
> >egregious that even Jenn and Stephen had to correct it. Good thing you
> >aren't posting under you real name, or your friends would be cracking up
> >behind your back.
> >
> Truthfully, Arnie, I don't remember.........which doesn't detract from
> the great humor in his response.

No one said piano/duets were unknown in musically illiterate churches or
that Harry had seen one but didn't know it.

Stephen

> I hope my friends *are* cracking up behind my back....also in front
> and even sideways. Why else hang around here? Besides, most of us
> admit to making mistakes and aren't undone by them, so who the hell
> cares?
>
> Oh.
>
> That's right.
>
> You do.
>
>
> Hoobert