Where have all the Kroopologists gone? [Archive]

Arny Krueger

February 1st 09, 05:14 AM

"Boon" > wrote in message

> On Jan 31, 8:41?pm, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>> "Boon" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>> So you're saying that no one has ever taken your side on
>>> Usenet?
>>
>> Absolutely untrue. I have many friends and allies, on
>> Usenet, in HTML forums, and also in the real world. ?The
>> only reason you don't know that is that you stay
>> cloistered on RAO, worshiping the Middiot.
>
> So why do you hang out here?

For the pleasure of tying so many idiots in so many knots with so little
work. ;-)

> Why don't you remain in the
> groups where you have friends (sic) and allies?

Being respected is very good, but its not a replacement for kicking Middiot
butt every once in a while.

> Why in the
> world would anyone want to stay in a place where they are
> constantly despised and ridiculed?

Because the people who try to do that always make themselves look like
idiots.

>That's not normal behavior.

It's not normal to behave like an idiot the way you do so often, Marc. How
do you explain that?

> The only answer is that you have NPD, and that you think
> you're giving as good as you get.

Not at all. Given that I've got about 5 of you working nearly full time, I'm
demonstrably giving about 5 times better than I get.

> You're not.

Says a habitual liar.

> If you want proof, merely show your post here over the last few
> weeks to Susan.

It's true that what I do to you guys is merciless, and Sue is a very
merciful person. Of course she knows about your perverse love of a certain
bad thing and how you are obsessing over it and mentioning it all the time.
She also knows about how you've been bringing up the death of her son
whenever you need a perverse thrill. And she knows about the
characterizations of her as being a "back alley....".

> The simple fact that you won't do that
> reveals your mental illness.

That fact that you are spending all your time on RAO so you can respond to
my posts within a few minutes says a lot about you Marc. BTW I had a good
time at the Chinese New Year's party I was at while you were sitting here
hour after hour, waiting for a post of mine to pounce on.

>> It's fascinating to see how many ex-RAO regulars one
>> runs into, the further one gets away from RAO.

>>> That should tell you something...

>> Marc, it tells me that you often pretend to be an
>> authority, when in fact you know nothing about that
>> which you speak.

> Prove it.

Doing that would involve telling the RAO Middiot Posse where these people
are having quiet enjoyment and who they are. I'm not going to rat them out.

Boon

February 1st 09, 05:45 AM

On Jan 31, 9:14�pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "Boon" > wrote in message
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 8:41?pm, "Arny Krueger" >
> > wrote:
> >> "Boon" > wrote in message
>
>
>
> >>> So you're saying that no one has ever taken your side on
> >>> Usenet?
>
> >> Absolutely untrue. I have many friends and allies, on
> >> Usenet, in HTML forums, and also in the real world. ?The
> >> only reason you don't know that is that you stay
> >> cloistered on RAO, worshiping the Middiot.
>
> > So why do you hang out here?
>
> For the pleasure of tying so many idiots in so many knots with so little
> work. ;-)

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> > Why don't you remain in the
> > groups where you have friends (sic) �and allies?
>
> Being respected is very good, but its not a replacement for kicking Middiot
> butt every once in a while.

You're not kicking Middiot butt. That's part of your fantasy
construct. If you need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in
this thread. Don't you trust her anymore?

>
> > Why in the
> > world would anyone want to stay in a place where they are
> > constantly despised and ridiculed?
>
> Because the people who try to do that always make themselves look like
> idiots.

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> >That's not normal behavior.
>
> It's not normal to behave like an idiot the way you do so often, Marc. �How
> do you explain that?

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> > The only answer is that you have NPD, and that you think
> > you're giving as good as you get.
>
> Not at all. Given that I've got about 5 of you working nearly full time, I'm
> demonstrably giving about 5 times better than I get.

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> > �You're not.
>
> Says a habitual liar.

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not true. If you need
proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't you
trust her anymore?

>
> > If you want proof, merely show your post here over the last few
> > weeks to Susan.
>
> It's true that what I do to you guys is merciless, and Sue is a very
> merciful person. Of course she knows about your perverse love of a certain
> bad thing and how you are obsessing over it and mentioning it all the time.

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

> She also knows about how you've been bringing up the death of her son
> whenever you need a perverse thrill. And she knows about the
> characterizations of her as being a "back alley....".

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> > The simple fact that you won't do that
> > reveals your mental illness.
>
> That fact that you are spending all your time on RAO so you can respond to
> my posts within a few minutes says a lot about you Marc. BTW I had a good
> time at the Chinese New Year's party I was at while you were sitting here
> hour after hour, waiting for a post of mine to pounce on.

That's part of your fantasy construct. That's not happening. If you
need proof, simply let Susan read your posts in this thread. Don't
you trust her anymore?

>
> >> It's fascinating to see how many ex-RAO regulars one
> >> runs into, the further one gets away from RAO.
> >>> That should tell you something...
> >> Marc, it tells me that you often pretend to be an
> >> authority, when in fact you know nothing about that
> >> which you speak.
> > �Prove it.
>
> Doing that would involve telling the RAO Middiot Posse where these people
> are having quiet enjoyment and who they are. I'm not going to rat them out.

Arny Krueger

February 1st 09, 05:49 AM

"Boon" > wrote in message

> On Jan 31, 9:14?pm, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>> "Boon" > wrote in message

>> Doing that would involve telling the RAO Middiot Posse
>> where these people are having quiet enjoyment and who
>> they are. I'm not going to rat them out.

> They don't exist, in other words.

Typical of your obsession Marc. You are so far gone that you believe that
nobody can exist outside of RAO.

If you stop posting to RAO in your current state, you think that something
very bad will happen to you.

> They're part of your fantasy construct.

Oh Marc, so JJ is a fantasy construct of mine?

> They don't count because they're not real.

Your words Marc. What you are really saying is that if they aren't posting
on RAO as far as you are concerned they are not real. Everybody with a brain
and knowledge that is independent of RAO knows better.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 1st 09, 08:21 AM

On Jan 31, 10:41*pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> It's fascinating to see how many ex-RAO regulars one runs into, the further
> one gets away from RAO.

Prove it.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 1st 09, 08:22 AM

On Jan 31, 11:14*pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "Boon" > wrote in message

> > So why do you hang out here?
>
> For the pleasure of tying so many idiots in so many knots with so little
> work. ;-)

Clearly a lie.

<snip 450 words or so, which represent "little work" to GOIA>

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 1st 09, 08:23 AM

On Jan 31, 11:49*pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "Boon" > wrote in message

> > They're part of your fantasy construct.
>
> Oh Marc, so JJ is a fantasy construct of mine?

Your sex life is none of our concern.

February 1st 09, 08:58 AM

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 10:41 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> It's fascinating to see how many ex-RAO regulars one runs into, the
> further
> one gets away from RAO.

Prove it.

And you don't recon that they are ****ed because Arny has tracked then
down?! ;-)

Cheers TT

Boon

February 1st 09, 08:20 PM

On Feb 1, 12:11�pm, wrote:
> > > > > > Where have all the Kroopologists gone?
> > > > > > Long time passing
>
> > > > > For the sake of us lyrically deprived philistines, what tune is this?
>
> > > > "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" �Pete Seeger tune, recorded by
> > > > Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, Joan Baez, and others.
>
> > > Gawd, it's been decades since I heard anybody perform that. I never got into
> > > that kind of music. Don't you think electric guitars do a lot for folk
> > > music?
>
> > Nope.
>
> �Most folk music was boring and stupid.

Most people who pass judgment on entire genres of music are pretty
boring and stupid as well.

Boon

Jenn[_3_]

February 1st 09, 09:42 PM

In article
>,
wrote:

> > > > > > Where have all the Kroopologists gone?
> > > > > > Long time passing
> >
> > > > > For the sake of us lyrically deprived philistines, what tune is this?
> >
> > > > "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" *Pete Seeger tune, recorded by
> > > > Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, Joan Baez, and others.
> >
> > > Gawd, it's been decades since I heard anybody perform that. I never got
> > > into
> > > that kind of music. Don't you think electric guitars do a lot for folk
> > > music?
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Most folk music was boring and stupid.

Well, you're entitled.

> In fact, it's interesting to
> note that when the Spinal Tap/ Waiting For Guffman crew spoofed folk
> music in "A Mighty Wind"

A wonderful film. I love all of their stuff.

> (the title worked on the metaphor of
> "blowing" both in the sense of flatulence and fellatio)

lol

> the spoof
> folk songs were in fact better than most of the "real" folk music of
> the parlor pink era.

They worked so well because they are archetypes.

>
> I did, however, note the reappearance of the tenor guitar among one
> of the Cub Scout uniformed nine piece crew.

Each of the acts in the film were, again, archetypes. That group was
the "New Christy Minstrels" archetype.

> For amateurs, it's a great
> instrument. Too bad we don't see more of them.

Why? Not enough range for my tastes. Anyway, it was more popular in
past years, as I'm sure you know. Made popular by the late Nick
Reynolds of the Kingston Trio.

Jenn[_3_]

February 2nd 09, 03:11 PM

In article
>,
wrote:

> }}the spoof
> > folk songs were in fact better than most of the "real" folk music of
> > the parlor pink era.
>
>
> They worked so well because they are archetypes.
>
>
> > I did, however, note the reappearance of the tenor guitar among one
> > of the Cub Scout uniformed nine piece crew.
>
>
>
> Each of the acts in the film were, again, archetypes. That group was
> the "New Christy Minstrels" archetype. {{
>
>
> More correctly, the archetypes were those filled in the first place
> bythe "original acts", and re-alluded to. Archetypes by definition go
> back far before the first well remembered act that fulfills them and
> are interesting after that because others fill them more completely or
> in different ways. Before films and recorded music, of course, the
> archetype had to continually be re-filled, since performers left no
> footprints, and live performance being the only way to see them many
> could have bunches of people doing it. Now one actor or musician can
> do the job and do it so well that in some cases it's a dead issue.
> Even generations after death the movies and recordings keep it locked
> up. Who can forget Fred Astaire dancing with a cheap injection molded
> piece of **** vacuum cleaner?

So who, for example, would be the archetype for the New Christy
Minstrels type of act?

Jenn[_3_]

February 2nd 09, 03:25 PM

In article
>,
wrote:

> >
> > > For amateurs, it's a great
> > > instrument. Too bad we don't see more of them.
> >
> > Why? *Not enough range for my tastes. *Anyway, it was more popular in
> > past years, as I'm sure you know. *Made popular by the late Nick
> > Reynolds of the Kingston Trio.- Hide quoted text -
> >
>
> The tenor guitar is normally tuned in fifths,

Yep, cello tuning.

> which makes the kinds
> of chords used in modern pop music easy and consistent. Guitars are
> tuned in fourths (with the major third dogleg from G to B) which
> doesn't really fit with pop music.

Well, so far it has! That awful parallel 5th sound ("power chords") is
easy in standard 6 string tuning. What about standard 6 string doesn't
fit with pop music? That said, standard tuning has some limitations for
solo playing. I'm doing a lot in DADGAD these days.

>
> The tenor guitar and its relative the plectrum guitar were made
> popular before Mr. and Mrs. Reynolds did you know what.

Yes, of course. But the instruments sold in large numbers for the first
time due to Reynolds. SPeak to Dick Boak, historian at Martin Guitars
about that.

> They were made
> so tenor banjo players could double without learning a new, and alien,
> instrument, the "Spanish guitar". (At that time there was the "Spanish
> guitar", whether classical, flat top or arch top, and the "Hawaiian
> Guitar", played overhand and tuned to an open chord with a slide
> called a "steel". ) It did have a recall from obscurity because of Mr.
> Reynolds.
>
> Other people played four string guitars that were not tenor or
> plectrum guitars. Selmer made an Eddie Freeman guitar and Guild made a
> Tiny Grimes model, each after unorthodox jazz musicians.

Yep.

My points are: Tenor is a neat little instrument and should be played
more, but the 6 string is so much more useful overall with its far
better bass range, longer scale, etc.

Iain Churches[_2_]

February 2nd 09, 03:38 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> wrote:
>
>> which makes the kinds
>> of chords used in modern pop music easy and consistent. Guitars are
>> tuned in fourths (with the major third dogleg from G to B) which
>> doesn't really fit with pop music.
>
> Well, so far it has! That awful parallel 5th sound ("power chords") is
> easy in standard 6 string tuning. What about standard 6 string doesn't
> fit with pop music? That said, standard tuning has some limitations for
> solo playing. I'm doing a lot in DADGAD these days.
>

Jenn. I have always been a great fan of James Taylor.
IIRC he used to play a Guild but switched in the 80s
to Olson SJ. His songs are structurally very interesting,
and he has a most distinctive style and sound I wonder
how he tunes. Any ideas?

Iain

Jenn[_3_]

February 2nd 09, 03:51 PM

In article >,
"Iain Churches" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article
> > >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> which makes the kinds
> >> of chords used in modern pop music easy and consistent. Guitars are
> >> tuned in fourths (with the major third dogleg from G to B) which
> >> doesn't really fit with pop music.
> >
> > Well, so far it has! That awful parallel 5th sound ("power chords") is
> > easy in standard 6 string tuning. What about standard 6 string doesn't
> > fit with pop music? That said, standard tuning has some limitations for
> > solo playing. I'm doing a lot in DADGAD these days.
> >
>
> Jenn. I have always been a great fan of James Taylor.
> IIRC he used to play a Guild but switched in the 80s
> to Olson SJ. His songs are structurally very interesting,
> and he has a most distinctive style and sound I wonder
> how he tunes. Any ideas?
>
> Iain

Howdy, Iain. I like JT a lot as well. The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. I like cedar
tops like JT's. My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. When teamed
with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)

JT plays a lot in standard tuning, but also "dropped D" (Country Road,
for example), and open G (low to high - DGDGBD, Love Has Brought Me
Around), for example. The key to his sound is simplicity with lots of
ringing open strings. He's a fine, fine player, especially as
singer-songwriters go.

Jenn[_3_]

February 3rd 09, 03:16 AM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 2, 9:51*am, Jenn > wrote:
>
> > Howdy, Iain. *I like JT a lot as well. *The Olson is a GREAT instrument. *
> > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. *I like cedar
> > tops like JT's. *My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. *When teamed
> > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.) *
>
> I had a Taylor jumbo guitar, an 815 IIRC. I think they get that
> emphasis because Taylor tops seem like they're thinner than what I
> would consider a "regular" thickness for a top. I was moving a lot
> when I had it, from Minneapolis to Oklahoma to Denver and other
> places. Humidity control was an issue. The top kept sinking and
> shifting.

I believe that you're right about the Taylor tops. They are VERY
"playable" instruments, great neck, etc. But that "overtoney" sound is
not for me. Too jangly. Every fingerstyle soloist (what I do) whom I
know who has an endorsement deal with them (Doyle Dykes, Leo Kottke, Pat
Kirtley) alters their instruments to defeat that sound.

>
> Craig Breedlove (who apprenticed with Taylor, again IIRC) had a
> factory-authorized fix for this. Even after he worked on my guitar it
> still had problems with the top shifting, which also obviously kept
> affecting the action. Since I couldn't build a glass humidity-
> controlled room in the BOQs I was living in, I decided to get rid of
> it. That's when I got my Larrivee.

You ended up ahead, IMO. Speaking of Breedlove, their instruments are
first rate for factory built guitars. My dear friend Ed Gerhard is
their lead endorser. His signature model jumbo is simply amazing. The
bass is unsurpassed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdf4AEHxH0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfyeMZFWhvs&feature=related

Iain Churches[_2_]

February 3rd 09, 09:40 AM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Iain Churches" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article
>> > >,
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> which makes the kinds
>> >> of chords used in modern pop music easy and consistent. Guitars are
>> >> tuned in fourths (with the major third dogleg from G to B) which
>> >> doesn't really fit with pop music.
>> >
>> > Well, so far it has! That awful parallel 5th sound ("power chords") is
>> > easy in standard 6 string tuning. What about standard 6 string doesn't
>> > fit with pop music? That said, standard tuning has some limitations
>> > for
>> > solo playing. I'm doing a lot in DADGAD these days.
>> >
>>
>> Jenn. I have always been a great fan of James Taylor.
>> IIRC he used to play a Guild but switched in the 80s
>> to Olson SJ. His songs are structurally very interesting,
>> and he has a most distinctive style and sound I wonder
>> how he tunes. Any ideas?
>>
>> Iain
>
> Howdy, Iain. I like JT a lot as well. The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
> I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. I like cedar
> tops like JT's. My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. When teamed
> with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
>
> JT plays a lot in standard tuning, but also "dropped D" (Country Road,
> for example), and open G (low to high - DGDGBD, Love Has Brought Me
> Around), for example. The key to his sound is simplicity with lots of
> ringing open strings. He's a fine, fine player, especially as
> singer-songwriters go.

Thanks for that Jenn. Am I correct in thinking that the JT sound
is not just due the Olson, but also to the tuning (and the open
strings) to which you refer?

James Taylor lived in the UK for a while, and was the first non-UK
artist signed to the Beatles "Apple" label. A pal of mine worked at
the legendary Trident Studios in London's Soho, and I managed to
meet and speak briefly with Mr Taylor in 1968.

His songs are amazing in that the lyrics seem to penetrate your
soul, and lay it bare.

It's very hard indeed to pick a favourite JT track, buit perhaps
mine is "The Frozen Man" which tells about a British sailor from
the late 1800s who was drowned at sea, and subsequently
recovered in a block of ice, thawed out, and brought back to life.

My name is William James McPhee
born in 1843
Raised in Liverpool by the sea
But that ain't who I am
Lord have mercy on the frozen man

Iain

Jenn[_3_]

February 3rd 09, 03:30 PM

In article >,
"Iain Churches" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Iain Churches" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article
> >> > >,
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> which makes the kinds
> >> >> of chords used in modern pop music easy and consistent. Guitars are
> >> >> tuned in fourths (with the major third dogleg from G to B) which
> >> >> doesn't really fit with pop music.
> >> >
> >> > Well, so far it has! That awful parallel 5th sound ("power chords") is
> >> > easy in standard 6 string tuning. What about standard 6 string doesn't
> >> > fit with pop music? That said, standard tuning has some limitations
> >> > for
> >> > solo playing. I'm doing a lot in DADGAD these days.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Jenn. I have always been a great fan of James Taylor.
> >> IIRC he used to play a Guild but switched in the 80s
> >> to Olson SJ. His songs are structurally very interesting,
> >> and he has a most distinctive style and sound I wonder
> >> how he tunes. Any ideas?
> >>
> >> Iain
> >
> > Howdy, Iain. I like JT a lot as well. The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
> > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. I like cedar
> > tops like JT's. My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. When teamed
> > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
> >
> > JT plays a lot in standard tuning, but also "dropped D" (Country Road,
> > for example), and open G (low to high - DGDGBD, Love Has Brought Me
> > Around), for example. The key to his sound is simplicity with lots of
> > ringing open strings. He's a fine, fine player, especially as
> > singer-songwriters go.
>
> Thanks for that Jenn. Am I correct in thinking that the JT sound
> is not just due the Olson, but also to the tuning (and the open
> strings) to which you refer?

For sure. He plays simple chord voicings up the neck that combine open
lower strings and the minimum number of LH fingers, so the individual
notes in chords and melody lines are clearly heard and are sweet
sounding. Lots of resonance and lots of ringing due to the open
strings. With that low D that you get in dropped D and open G tuning,
it makes for a great sound. And the Olson is truly a great sounding
instrument, FAR better for the way he plays and the sound he wants than
a Guild, which is more of a "strumming" instrument.

>
> James Taylor lived in the UK for a while, and was the first non-UK
> artist signed to the Beatles "Apple" label. A pal of mine worked at
> the legendary Trident Studios in London's Soho, and I managed to
> meet and speak briefly with Mr Taylor in 1968.

Cool!

>
> His songs are amazing in that the lyrics seem to penetrate your
> soul, and lay it bare.
>
> It's very hard indeed to pick a favourite JT track, buit perhaps
> mine is "The Frozen Man" which tells about a British sailor from
> the late 1800s who was drowned at sea, and subsequently
> recovered in a block of ice, thawed out, and brought back to life.
>
>
> My name is William James McPhee
> born in 1843
> Raised in Liverpool by the sea
> But that ain't who I am
> Lord have mercy on the frozen man

I don't know it; I just downloaded it based on your praise. A fine song
indeed. Thanks!

John Atkinson[_2_]

February 3rd 09, 03:57 PM

On Feb 2, 7:26 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 9:51 am, Jenn > wrote:
> > Howdy, Iain. I like JT a lot as well. The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
> > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. I like cedar
> > tops like JT's. My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. When teamed
> > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
>
> I had a Taylor jumbo guitar, an 815 IIRC. I think they get that
> emphasis because Taylor tops seem like they're thinner than
> what I would consider a "regular" thickness for a top.

Very interesting discussion. Cantus' version of Gordon
Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on
their Their Lies the Home CD includes acoustic guitar.
It was a single-cutaway Taylor and I couldn't get to grips
with its "wirey" tone color at the recording sessions. Even
unamplified it easily cut through the choral sound and
was audible at the back of the hall - but I felt it too
thin-sounding to provide optimal support for the singing.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Jenn[_3_]

February 3rd 09, 03:59 PM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 2, 11:35*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
>
> > > I used to hang out at a guitar shops in a Minneapolis suburb when I
> > > was a teen. Leo Kottke and Michael (Bluer Than Blue) Johnson were
> > > regualrs. The owner let me play whatever I wanted to. At that time I
> > > fell in love with Bozo Pedunavac (sp?) guitars. They were far more
> > > than I could afford at the time unfortunately. I think Kottke played
> > > them then. Have you ever played one?
> >
> > No, I've not had the pleasure. *Leo played them in the 70s. *My friend
> > Larry Pattis used to have one. *Great reputation, very collectable.
>
> This was in the mid-1970s.
>
> In going down memory lane I looked up a few others I recall playing at
> that time. The store was initially called "Godfrey Daniels" and was
> later called "The Guitar Store LTD (Handmade Guitar Heaven)". They had
> all the standard stuff (Gibson, Martin, Guild, etc.) but also had
> probably 20-30 other makers. These also made an impression on me at
> the time:
>
> http://www.grevenguitars.com/
>
> I recall thinking that the guitar was cool because of its ornateness
> but at the time I felt that it was harder to play than many of the
> others. It may have just been strung with heavier-guage strings but I
> was too young and inexperienced to have figured that out at the time.
> I remember the model I played was called a "White Lady". It had a ton
> of abalone and ivory and may have been the most expensive guitar
> there. It was certainly one of them.
>
> http://www.gallagherguitar.com/
>
> I think this make came in second to Bozo in my playing. I recall Dee
> Jameson (the owner) would hand one to me and I'd play it for awhile.
> Then he'd give me another one and after a while ask me which I like
> better. We'd go through all of the guitars, probably over 100. At the
> end, the Bozo would always be the one. The back half of the store was
> humidity-controlled and just stuffed with great instruments. This is
> where I first learned that the "big names" sometimes weren't the best.
> Martin, Gibson, etc. never placed in the top five.
>
> Dee knew I couldn't afford any of them. I'd hang out and he'd have me
> restring guitars, listen to music, or whatever. I remember he had a
> guitar contest that Michael Johnson and Leo Kottke judged. Dee wanted
> me to enter but I was too shy at the time and not confident enough to
> play in front of great players such as them. So I ended up helping out
> putting it on.
>
> I always felt privileged to be able to play so many fine instruments.
> He was a really nice guy. I've wondered whatever happened to him. He
> sold the shop in the 1980s I think. I hung out in his shop nearly 35
> years ago. Isn't it funny how long acts of kindness toward a broke
> teenager can last? :-)
>
> And it's also good to see that Bozo is still active:
>
> http://guitars.net/Bozo.htm
>
> In looking over his site I'm sure it was the Bell Western model that I
> played and lusted over. Dee had the Japanese-made ones in stock too,
> which as I recall were also nice to play and very good-sounding.

You have excellent taste! Slightly different than mine, in that those
you speak of are a little heavier built than mine, which is a general
preference of solo players.

I'm very lucky to own two of the very best guitars I've ever heard,
particularly in light of the fact that I've only been into the kind of
playing that I'm into for about 3 years. This is one of them:
http://www.dreamguitars.com/sold/Baranik_CX_04188.html
An amazing instrument. I couldn't have afforded it new, but as you can
see, I bought it used, in absolutely perfect condition. I've never
heard a better sounding instrument, unless it's this one (different, but
great):
http://mguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=e&m=OMC%20Laurence%
20Juber
At the time I bought it, I wasn't really in the market for another great
guitar at this price, but I had started to study with and became great
friends with the designer/player (Laurence Juber), and his just sounded
SO good. Since I do some work for Martin, I get anything from them at
wholesale, so it became irresistible. I'm sure glad that I got it, as
it's truly great. A little less "dark" than the Baranik.

Jenn[_3_]

February 3rd 09, 04:02 PM

In article
>,
John Atkinson > wrote:

> On Feb 2, 7:26 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
> > wrote:
> > On Feb 2, 9:51 am, Jenn > wrote:
> > > Howdy, Iain. I like JT a lot as well. The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
> > > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. I like cedar
> > > tops like JT's. My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. When teamed
> > > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
> >
> > I had a Taylor jumbo guitar, an 815 IIRC. I think they get that
> > emphasis because Taylor tops seem like they're thinner than
> > what I would consider a "regular" thickness for a top.
>
> Very interesting discussion. Cantus' version of Gordon
> Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on
> their Their Lies the Home CD includes acoustic guitar.
> It was a single-cutaway Taylor and I couldn't get to grips
> with its "wirey" tone color at the recording sessions. Even
> unamplified it easily cut through the choral sound and
> was audible at the back of the hall - but I felt it too
> thin-sounding to provide optimal support for the singing.
>
> John Atkinson
> Editor, Stereophile

Good description of the "Taylor sound".

Next time, fly me and my guitar there! ;-)

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 12:38 AM

On Feb 3, 9:59*am, Jenn > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 11:35*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
>
> > > > I used to hang out at a guitar shops in a Minneapolis suburb when I
> > > > was a teen. Leo Kottke and Michael (Bluer Than Blue) Johnson were
> > > > regualrs. The owner let me play whatever I wanted to. At that time I
> > > > fell in love with Bozo Pedunavac (sp?) guitars. They were far more
> > > > than I could afford at the time unfortunately. I think Kottke played
> > > > them then. Have you ever played one?
>
> > > No, I've not had the pleasure. *Leo played them in the 70s. *My friend
> > > Larry Pattis used to have one. *Great reputation, very collectable.
>
> > This was in the mid-1970s.
>
> > In going down memory lane I looked up a few others I recall playing at
> > that time. The store was initially called "Godfrey Daniels" and was
> > later called "The Guitar Store LTD (Handmade Guitar Heaven)". They had
> > all the standard stuff (Gibson, Martin, Guild, etc.) but also had
> > probably 20-30 other makers. These also made an impression on me at
> > the time:
>
> >http://www.grevenguitars.com/
>
> > I recall thinking that the guitar was cool because of its ornateness
> > but at the time I felt that it was harder to play than many of the
> > others. It may have just been strung with heavier-guage strings but I
> > was too young and inexperienced to have figured that out at the time.
> > I remember the model I played was called a "White Lady". It had a ton
> > of abalone and ivory and may have been the most expensive guitar
> > there. It was certainly one of them.
>
> >http://www.gallagherguitar.com/
>
> > I think this make came in second to Bozo in my playing. I recall Dee
> > Jameson (the owner) would hand one to me and I'd play it for awhile.
> > Then he'd give me another one and after a while ask me which I like
> > better. We'd go through all of the guitars, probably over 100. At the
> > end, the Bozo would always be the one. The back half of the store was
> > humidity-controlled and just stuffed with great instruments. This is
> > where I first learned that the "big names" sometimes weren't the best.
> > Martin, Gibson, etc. never placed in the top five.
>
> > Dee knew I couldn't afford any of them. I'd hang out and he'd have me
> > restring guitars, listen to music, or whatever. I remember he had a
> > guitar contest that Michael Johnson and Leo Kottke judged. Dee wanted
> > me to enter but I was too shy at the time and not confident enough to
> > play in front of great players such as them. So I ended up helping out
> > putting it on.
>
> > I always felt privileged to be able to play so many fine instruments.
> > He was a really nice guy. I've wondered whatever happened to him. He
> > sold the shop in the 1980s I think. I hung out in his shop nearly 35
> > years ago. Isn't it funny how long acts of kindness toward a broke
> > teenager can last? :-)
>
> > And it's also good to see that Bozo is still active:
>
> >http://guitars.net/Bozo.htm
>
> > In looking over his site I'm sure it was the Bell Western model that I
> > played and lusted over. Dee had the Japanese-made ones in stock too,
> > which as I recall were also nice to play and very good-sounding.
>
> You have excellent taste! *Slightly different than mine, in that those
> you speak of are a little heavier built than mine, which is a general
> preference of solo players.

I don't do fingerstyle much and prefer Fender 355 heavy picks. I
prefer a lightly-held heavy pick to a firmly-held thin one. :-)

> I'm very lucky to own two of the very best guitars I've ever heard,
> particularly in light of the fact that I've only been into the kind of
> playing that I'm into for about 3 years. *This is one of them:http://www.dreamguitars.com/sold/Baranik_CX_04188.html

That's gorgeous. Did you play it blind so its terrific looks didn't
sway your judgment on its sound? ;-)

> An amazing instrument. *I couldn't have afforded it new, but as you can
> see, I bought it used, in absolutely perfect condition. *I've never
> heard a better sounding instrument, unless it's this one (different, but
> great):http://mguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=e&m=OMC%20Laure...
> 20Juber
> At the time I bought it, I wasn't really in the market for another great
> guitar at this price, but I had started to study with and became great
> friends with the designer/player (Laurence Juber), and his just sounded
> SO good. *Since I do some work for Martin, I get anything from them at
> wholesale, so it became irresistible. *I'm sure glad that I got it, as
> it's truly great. *A little less "dark" than the Baranik.

I now realize that one reason I didn't prefer the Martins and Gibsons
and Guilds back then was that in the mid-1970s most American large-
volume guitar manufacturers were having some severe quality issues. On
the electric side, "Pre-CBS" Fenders bring a premium. The 1970s stuff
doesn't hold a candle to it. Gibson (I have a couple of their
electrics) in the 1970s was pretty much trash. I think Martins from
the 1970s are likewise tainted and less desireable. Fortunately they
all seem to have sorted out the issues and are all again making
exceptional instruments.

I love my Larrivee but I would drop it in a nanosecond for a Bozo for
nostalgia's sake if nothing else. And I haven't played one in 30
years. :-)

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 01:09 AM

On Feb 3, 10:02*am, Jenn > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *John Atkinson > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 7:26 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
> > > wrote:
> > > On Feb 2, 9:51 am, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > Howdy, Iain. *I like JT a lot as well. *The Olson is a GREAT instrument.
> > > > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. *I like cedar
> > > > tops like JT's. *My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. *When teamed
> > > > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > > > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > > > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > > > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
>
> > > I had a Taylor jumbo guitar, an 815 IIRC. I think they get that
> > > emphasis because Taylor tops seem like they're thinner than
> > > what I would consider a "regular" thickness for a top.
>
> > Very interesting discussion. Cantus' version of Gordon
> > Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on
> > their Their Lies the Home CD includes acoustic guitar.
> > It was a single-cutaway Taylor and I couldn't get to grips
> > with its "wirey" tone color at the recording sessions. Even
> > unamplified it easily cut through the choral sound and
> > was audible at the back of the hall - but I felt it too
> > thin-sounding to provide optimal support for the singing.

> Good description of the "Taylor sound".
>
> Next time, fly me and my guitar there! *;-)

Come to Minneapolis in June. It sounds like JA's buying the first
round. :-)

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 01:26 AM

On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:38:31 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
Reason!" > wrote:

<snipped for brevity......

>I now realize that one reason I didn't prefer the Martins and Gibsons
>and Guilds back then was that in the mid-1970s most American large-
>volume guitar manufacturers were having some severe quality issues. On
>the electric side, "Pre-CBS" Fenders bring a premium. The 1970s stuff
>doesn't hold a candle to it. Gibson (I have a couple of their
>electrics) in the 1970s was pretty much trash. I think Martins from
>the 1970s are likewise tainted and less desireable. Fortunately they
>all seem to have sorted out the issues and are all again making
>exceptional instruments.

Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
remember feeling anguished about.

Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
(I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.

The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.

I took it to Noah Wulff and get it screwed around with a bit, and that
box became pretty good. Then I lost my mind.

I fell in love with a new D-45 (you couldn't find a used one, and the
guitar I lusted after was a 000-28, but I couldn't find one of those
either) because it looked so cool. Virtually everything I tried out
played better than that early '70's Martin (there was a re-worked
Gibson Humingbird I'm still PO'd I didn't buy. I agree with Ssssshh
that those guitars usually weren't so hot, but this one was a joy) but
I stupidly persisted.

That box never was right, matter what you did with it. It looked
great, sounded dull, and played worse, and all for more money than I
could easily afford back then. It was just about then that other
manufacturers began to appear on the scene. I played a couple of
Ovations for a while that had a lot going for them, not least being
they could takea pounding in a club and amplified really well (and you
didn't care what hapened to the wood around the bridge).

The Taylors and the Santa Monicas and a host of others came a bit
later, too late for me to take advantage, but that's another story for
another time.

I'm enjoying this thread. Lots to learn here.

Herbert

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 01:42 AM

On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> remember feeling anguished about.
>
> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
>
> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.

I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)

I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
its bookmatched two-piece back.

Speaking of Chicago I was there in about 1977 and went into a guitar
shop downtown (Chicago Guitar, perhaps?). They had a 1957 Les Paul
Goldtop for (IIRC) $800. It was gorgeous. Talk about guitars you
regret not buying... :-(

Jenn[_2_]

February 4th 09, 02:32 AM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 3, 10:02*am, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *John Atkinson > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 7:26 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Feb 2, 9:51 am, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > > Howdy, Iain. *I like JT a lot as well. *The Olson is a GREAT
> > > > > instrument.
> > > > > I've played a couple of them, and they are just fantastic. *I like
> > > > > cedar
> > > > > tops like JT's. *My Baranik custom made is cedar topped. *When teamed
> > > > > with back and side wood that is hard, you get a great combination of
> > > > > projection and emphasis on the fundamental tone (as opposed to
> > > > > instruments that emphasize the instrument's overtones, like Taylor
> > > > > guitars typically do; not my cup of tea.)
> >
> > > > I had a Taylor jumbo guitar, an 815 IIRC. I think they get that
> > > > emphasis because Taylor tops seem like they're thinner than
> > > > what I would consider a "regular" thickness for a top.
> >
> > > Very interesting discussion. Cantus' version of Gordon
> > > Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on
> > > their Their Lies the Home CD includes acoustic guitar.
> > > It was a single-cutaway Taylor and I couldn't get to grips
> > > with its "wirey" tone color at the recording sessions. Even
> > > unamplified it easily cut through the choral sound and
> > > was audible at the back of the hall - but I felt it too
> > > thin-sounding to provide optimal support for the singing.
>
> > Good description of the "Taylor sound".
> >
> > Next time, fly me and my guitar there! *;-)
>
> Come to Minneapolis in June. It sounds like JA's buying the first
> round. :-)

Would love to, but then I'd be in Minneapolis in June! ;-)

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 02:58 AM

On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:42:45 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
Reason!" > wrote:

>On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
>> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
>> remember feeling anguished about.
>>
>> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
>> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
>> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
>>
>> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
>> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
>> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
>
>I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
>played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)
>
>I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
>back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
>its bookmatched two-piece back.
>
>Speaking of Chicago I was there in about 1977 and went into a guitar
>shop downtown (Chicago Guitar, perhaps?). They had a 1957 Les Paul
>Goldtop for (IIRC) $800. It was gorgeous. Talk about guitars you
>regret not buying... :-(

I regret every Les Paul I never bought, but I never had a good enough
reason to buy one in the sense that by the time I knew enough to want
to play jazz, my hands were too bad to play anymore. That Goldtop
could maybe pay for a new house for you now. The Les Pauls were
buttery. If you came to them from a heavy-strung Dreadnaught you were
absolutely shocked at the speed you could generate on that neck.

Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
'60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).

Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
and big Gibsons.

Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
you were into a National Steel or a Dobro, Martins and Gibsons were it
and it was hard to shake that brand identification.

I never got down to the loop when I was in Chicago. I was at the U of
C, which straddled the Midway on the South Side. If I went anywhere, I
went further South to Cottage Grove and Stony Island Aves. and tried
to jam at the black blues clubs that were all around then. The loop
was far away and hard to get to, unless you had a car, which I sure as
hell didn't.

I suppose it's all good. I was never talented anyway. Competent maybe
(on my best days, anyway), but not talented. A lot of times I could
"see" the notes but just couldn't get there. Other times, when I was
around someone *really* good, I couldn't even imagine the licks they
were slinging until *after* I heard them.

Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.

Herbert

MiNe 109

February 4th 09, 03:56 AM

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.

Google up Jenn's YouTube links!

Or maybe she can repost?

Stephen

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 05:54 AM

On Feb 3, 8:58*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:42:45 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
>
>
>
>
>
> Reason!" > wrote:
> >On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
> >> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> >> remember feeling anguished about.
>
> >> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> >> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> >> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
>
> >> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> >> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> >> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
>
> >I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
> >played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)
>
> >I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
> >back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
> >its bookmatched two-piece back.
>
> >Speaking of Chicago I was there in about 1977 and went into a guitar
> >shop downtown (Chicago Guitar, perhaps?). They had a 1957 Les Paul
> >Goldtop for (IIRC) $800. It was gorgeous. Talk about guitars you
> >regret not buying... :-(
>
> I regret every Les Paul I never bought, but I never had a good enough
> reason to buy one in the sense that by the time I knew enough to want
> to play jazz, my hands were too bad to play anymore. That Goldtop
> could maybe pay for a new house for you now. The Les Pauls were
> buttery. If you came to them from a heavy-strung Dreadnaught you were
> absolutely shocked at the speed you could generate on that neck.
>
> Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
> some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
> '60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
> I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).

I have a Tele that I like a lot. It's not "vintage" (its a US-made '52
Tele reissue from about 1984 or so) that I got in a pawnshop outside a
military base for $200. It's a screamer. I also have a Strat and a Les
Paul (but not a '57 unfortunately). I play through three amps: a 1962
Fender Vibrolux (the brown one, my favorite), a Marshall DSL 401 for
rock or a 1970s Fender. I have the '70s Fender just because I got it
so cheaply I couldn't pass it up. It's pretty terrible. All of them
tubed of course. :-)

> *Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
> there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
> of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
> 000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
> you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
> and big Gibsons.

I used to listen to the Butterfield Blues Band in high school. Didn't
he have James Cotton on harp at one point? Great music.

> I never got down to the loop when I was in Chicago. I was at the U of
> C, which straddled the Midway on the South Side. If I went anywhere, I
> went further South to Cottage Grove and Stony Island Aves. and tried
> to jam at the black blues clubs that were all around then.

My girlfriend and I go to Chicago somewhat regularly. There is still
some absolutely great blues there. The Goldmine and Buddy Guy's
Legends are two regular stops.

I remember being at the old Pick Congress lobby when I was in Chicago
for a summer CES show. There was a band that I could hear from the
lounge just tearing it up. They were *wailing*. When I looked in there
were three old guys: a drummer with a very small kit (maybe 20" bass
drum, a snare, one mounted tom, a high-hat, one other cymbal and a
floor tom) who sounded like he had a double bass drum Octa Plus, a
stand up bass player and a piano player. I'll never forget them.
Incredible.

> I suppose it's all good. I was never talented anyway. Competent maybe
> (on my best days, anyway), but not talented. A lot of times I could
> "see" the notes but just couldn't get there. Other times, when I was
> around someone *really* good, I couldn't even imagine the licks they
> were slinging until *after* I heard them.

I, OTOH, am a guitar god. :-)

> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.

Seriously, I think no matter what level you get to there's always the
next one to keep you humble. Just when you think you've finally "got
it" you hear some monster player that you just *know* you'll never be
as good as. People say that I'm a good player, but I always think of
Kottke or any guitar player on any Steely Dan album, or 100s and 1000s
and dozens of other players who I think are far better. I get by but
there are some phenomenal players out there.

I'd wager that even Jenn feels that way. :-) <---gratuitous troll

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:48 AM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 3, 9:59*am, Jenn > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 11:35*pm, Jenn > wrote:
> > > > *"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:
> >
> > > > > I used to hang out at a guitar shops in a Minneapolis suburb when I
> > > > > was a teen. Leo Kottke and Michael (Bluer Than Blue) Johnson were
> > > > > regualrs. The owner let me play whatever I wanted to. At that time I
> > > > > fell in love with Bozo Pedunavac (sp?) guitars. They were far more
> > > > > than I could afford at the time unfortunately. I think Kottke played
> > > > > them then. Have you ever played one?
> >
> > > > No, I've not had the pleasure. *Leo played them in the 70s. *My friend
> > > > Larry Pattis used to have one. *Great reputation, very collectable.
> >
> > > This was in the mid-1970s.
> >
> > > In going down memory lane I looked up a few others I recall playing at
> > > that time. The store was initially called "Godfrey Daniels" and was
> > > later called "The Guitar Store LTD (Handmade Guitar Heaven)". They had
> > > all the standard stuff (Gibson, Martin, Guild, etc.) but also had
> > > probably 20-30 other makers. These also made an impression on me at
> > > the time:
> >
> > >http://www.grevenguitars.com/
> >
> > > I recall thinking that the guitar was cool because of its ornateness
> > > but at the time I felt that it was harder to play than many of the
> > > others. It may have just been strung with heavier-guage strings but I
> > > was too young and inexperienced to have figured that out at the time.
> > > I remember the model I played was called a "White Lady". It had a ton
> > > of abalone and ivory and may have been the most expensive guitar
> > > there. It was certainly one of them.
> >
> > >http://www.gallagherguitar.com/
> >
> > > I think this make came in second to Bozo in my playing. I recall Dee
> > > Jameson (the owner) would hand one to me and I'd play it for awhile.
> > > Then he'd give me another one and after a while ask me which I like
> > > better. We'd go through all of the guitars, probably over 100. At the
> > > end, the Bozo would always be the one. The back half of the store was
> > > humidity-controlled and just stuffed with great instruments. This is
> > > where I first learned that the "big names" sometimes weren't the best.
> > > Martin, Gibson, etc. never placed in the top five.
> >
> > > Dee knew I couldn't afford any of them. I'd hang out and he'd have me
> > > restring guitars, listen to music, or whatever. I remember he had a
> > > guitar contest that Michael Johnson and Leo Kottke judged. Dee wanted
> > > me to enter but I was too shy at the time and not confident enough to
> > > play in front of great players such as them. So I ended up helping out
> > > putting it on.
> >
> > > I always felt privileged to be able to play so many fine instruments.
> > > He was a really nice guy. I've wondered whatever happened to him. He
> > > sold the shop in the 1980s I think. I hung out in his shop nearly 35
> > > years ago. Isn't it funny how long acts of kindness toward a broke
> > > teenager can last? :-)
> >
> > > And it's also good to see that Bozo is still active:
> >
> > >http://guitars.net/Bozo.htm
> >
> > > In looking over his site I'm sure it was the Bell Western model that I
> > > played and lusted over. Dee had the Japanese-made ones in stock too,
> > > which as I recall were also nice to play and very good-sounding.
> >
> > You have excellent taste! *Slightly different than mine, in that those
> > you speak of are a little heavier built than mine, which is a general
> > preference of solo players.
>
> I don't do fingerstyle much and prefer Fender 355 heavy picks. I
> prefer a lightly-held heavy pick to a firmly-held thin one. :-)
>
> > I'm very lucky to own two of the very best guitars I've ever heard,
> > particularly in light of the fact that I've only been into the kind of
> > playing that I'm into for about 3 years. *This is one of
> > them:http://www.dreamguitars.com/sold/Baranik_CX_04188.html
>
> That's gorgeous. Did you play it blind so its terrific looks didn't
> sway your judgment on its sound? ;-)

lol

>
> > An amazing instrument. *I couldn't have afforded it new, but as you can
> > see, I bought it used, in absolutely perfect condition. *I've never
> > heard a better sounding instrument, unless it's this one (different, but
> > great):http://mguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=e&m=OMC%20Laure
> > ...
> > 20Juber
> > At the time I bought it, I wasn't really in the market for another great
> > guitar at this price, but I had started to study with and became great
> > friends with the designer/player (Laurence Juber), and his just sounded
> > SO good. *Since I do some work for Martin, I get anything from them at
> > wholesale, so it became irresistible. *I'm sure glad that I got it, as
> > it's truly great. *A little less "dark" than the Baranik.
>
> I now realize that one reason I didn't prefer the Martins and Gibsons
> and Guilds back then was that in the mid-1970s most American large-
> volume guitar manufacturers were having some severe quality issues. On
> the electric side, "Pre-CBS" Fenders bring a premium. The 1970s stuff
> doesn't hold a candle to it. Gibson (I have a couple of their
> electrics) in the 1970s was pretty much trash. I think Martins from
> the 1970s are likewise tainted and less desireable. Fortunately they
> all seem to have sorted out the issues and are all again making
> exceptional instruments.

All true. Martin has made a huge comeback in quality with Chris Martin
taking the reins. Their custom shop instruments, like mine, are
handmade one at a time, from their best woods. Really stunning stuff.

>
> I love my Larrivee but I would drop it in a nanosecond for a Bozo for
> nostalgia's sake if nothing else. And I haven't played one in 30
> years. :-)

I understand that. I don't play much electric, but I've had a jones for
an early 60s vintage Gretsch Country Gentleman since I was a kid, thanks
to Chet Atkins, George Harrison, and Mike Nesmith. Every time I have a
chance to get one, I back off because I realize that it would totally be
just a nostalgia move. Someday though...

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:49 AM

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:38:31 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
> Reason!" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
> <snipped for brevity......
>
> >I now realize that one reason I didn't prefer the Martins and Gibsons
> >and Guilds back then was that in the mid-1970s most American large-
> >volume guitar manufacturers were having some severe quality issues. On
> >the electric side, "Pre-CBS" Fenders bring a premium. The 1970s stuff
> >doesn't hold a candle to it. Gibson (I have a couple of their
> >electrics) in the 1970s was pretty much trash. I think Martins from
> >the 1970s are likewise tainted and less desireable. Fortunately they
> >all seem to have sorted out the issues and are all again making
> >exceptional instruments.
>
>
> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> remember feeling anguished about.
>
> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
>
> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
>
> I took it to Noah Wulff and get it screwed around with a bit, and that
> box became pretty good. Then I lost my mind.
>
> I fell in love with a new D-45 (you couldn't find a used one, and the
> guitar I lusted after was a 000-28, but I couldn't find one of those
> either) because it looked so cool. Virtually everything I tried out
> played better than that early '70's Martin (there was a re-worked
> Gibson Humingbird I'm still PO'd I didn't buy. I agree with Ssssshh
> that those guitars usually weren't so hot, but this one was a joy) but
> I stupidly persisted.
>
> That box never was right, matter what you did with it. It looked
> great, sounded dull, and played worse, and all for more money than I
> could easily afford back then. It was just about then that other
> manufacturers began to appear on the scene. I played a couple of
> Ovations for a while that had a lot going for them, not least being
> they could takea pounding in a club and amplified really well (and you
> didn't care what hapened to the wood around the bridge).
>
> The Taylors and the Santa Monicas

Do you mean Santa Cruz? Excellent guitars.

> and a host of others came a bit
> later, too late for me to take advantage, but that's another story for
> another time.
>
> I'm enjoying this thread. Lots to learn here.

Cool, huh? ;-)

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:50 AM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
> > Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> > remember feeling anguished about.
> >
> > Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> > did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> > (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
> >
> > The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> > traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> > congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
>
> I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
> played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)
>
> I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
> back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
> its bookmatched two-piece back.

A huge mistake. It was because of more expensive woods. But they
sounded terrible in comparison.

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:53 AM

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:42:45 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
> Reason!" > wrote:
>
> >On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> >
> >> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> >> remember feeling anguished about.
> >>
> >> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> >> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> >> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
> >>
> >> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> >> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> >> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
> >
> >I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
> >played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)
> >
> >I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
> >back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
> >its bookmatched two-piece back.
> >
> >Speaking of Chicago I was there in about 1977 and went into a guitar
> >shop downtown (Chicago Guitar, perhaps?). They had a 1957 Les Paul
> >Goldtop for (IIRC) $800. It was gorgeous. Talk about guitars you
> >regret not buying... :-(
>
> I regret every Les Paul I never bought, but I never had a good enough
> reason to buy one in the sense that by the time I knew enough to want
> to play jazz, my hands were too bad to play anymore. That Goldtop
> could maybe pay for a new house for you now. The Les Pauls were
> buttery. If you came to them from a heavy-strung Dreadnaught you were
> absolutely shocked at the speed you could generate on that neck.
>
> Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
> some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
> '60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
> I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).

The 40s-60s Martins were great. I played a 47 Martin OOO recently that
was amazing.

>
> Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
> there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
> of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
> 000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
> you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
> and big Gibsons.

Yep. I'm an OM (actually OMC) gal.

>
> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
> you were into a National Steel

National is located within 5 miles of my location. Great folks.

> or a Dobro, Martins and Gibsons were it
> and it was hard to shake that brand identification.
>
> I never got down to the loop when I was in Chicago. I was at the U of
> C, which straddled the Midway on the South Side. If I went anywhere, I
> went further South to Cottage Grove and Stony Island Aves. and tried
> to jam at the black blues clubs that were all around then. The loop
> was far away and hard to get to, unless you had a car, which I sure as
> hell didn't.
>
> I suppose it's all good. I was never talented anyway. Competent maybe
> (on my best days, anyway), but not talented. A lot of times I could
> "see" the notes but just couldn't get there. Other times, when I was
> around someone *really* good, I couldn't even imagine the licks they
> were slinging until *after* I heard them.
>
> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>
>
> Herbert

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:58 AM

In article
>,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote:

> On Feb 3, 8:58*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:42:45 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Reason!" > wrote:
> > >On Feb 3, 7:26*pm, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> >
> > >> Forgive me for jumping in, but Ssssshh brings up a topic I still
> > >> remember feeling anguished about.
> >
> > >> Back in the '60's I had a pretty good D-18 Martin I bought used and
> > >> did some stuff around Chicago that was fun. At the end of that decade
> > >> (I think it was still in the '60's) I moved up to a D-35.
> >
> > >> The damn thing was plain, ole awful. The action was so high, the
> > >> traffic department was rerouting buses underneath to alleviate
> > >> congestion. You simply couldn't move fast enough on that neck.
> >
> > >I had a friend who had an early-1970s D-35. It sounded terrible and
> > >played like crap but he was so proud of it I couldn't tell him. :-)
> >
> > >I never understood the rationale of why a guitar with a three-piece
> > >back was higher on the food chain than a D-28 (or even a D-18) with
> > >its bookmatched two-piece back.
> >
> > >Speaking of Chicago I was there in about 1977 and went into a guitar
> > >shop downtown (Chicago Guitar, perhaps?). They had a 1957 Les Paul
> > >Goldtop for (IIRC) $800. It was gorgeous. Talk about guitars you
> > >regret not buying... :-(
> >
> > I regret every Les Paul I never bought, but I never had a good enough
> > reason to buy one in the sense that by the time I knew enough to want
> > to play jazz, my hands were too bad to play anymore. That Goldtop
> > could maybe pay for a new house for you now. The Les Pauls were
> > buttery. If you came to them from a heavy-strung Dreadnaught you were
> > absolutely shocked at the speed you could generate on that neck.
> >
> > Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
> > some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
> > '60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
> > I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).
>
> I have a Tele that I like a lot. It's not "vintage" (its a US-made '52
> Tele reissue from about 1984 or so) that I got in a pawnshop outside a
> military base for $200. It's a screamer. I also have a Strat and a Les
> Paul (but not a '57 unfortunately). I play through three amps: a 1962
> Fender Vibrolux (the brown one, my favorite), a Marshall DSL 401 for
> rock or a 1970s Fender. I have the '70s Fender just because I got it
> so cheaply I couldn't pass it up. It's pretty terrible. All of them
> tubed of course. :-)
>
> > *Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
> > there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
> > of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
> > 000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
> > you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
> > and big Gibsons.
>
> I used to listen to the Butterfield Blues Band in high school. Didn't
> he have James Cotton on harp at one point? Great music.
>
> > I never got down to the loop when I was in Chicago. I was at the U of
> > C, which straddled the Midway on the South Side. If I went anywhere, I
> > went further South to Cottage Grove and Stony Island Aves. and tried
> > to jam at the black blues clubs that were all around then.
>
> My girlfriend and I go to Chicago somewhat regularly. There is still
> some absolutely great blues there. The Goldmine and Buddy Guy's
> Legends are two regular stops.
>
> I remember being at the old Pick Congress lobby when I was in Chicago
> for a summer CES show. There was a band that I could hear from the
> lounge just tearing it up. They were *wailing*. When I looked in there
> were three old guys: a drummer with a very small kit (maybe 20" bass
> drum, a snare, one mounted tom, a high-hat, one other cymbal and a
> floor tom) who sounded like he had a double bass drum Octa Plus, a
> stand up bass player and a piano player. I'll never forget them.
> Incredible.
>
> > I suppose it's all good. I was never talented anyway. Competent maybe
> > (on my best days, anyway), but not talented. A lot of times I could
> > "see" the notes but just couldn't get there. Other times, when I was
> > around someone *really* good, I couldn't even imagine the licks they
> > were slinging until *after* I heard them.
>
> I, OTOH, am a guitar god. :-)
>
> > Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>
> Seriously, I think no matter what level you get to there's always the
> next one to keep you humble.

Amen.

> Just when you think you've finally "got
> it" you hear some monster player that you just *know* you'll never be
> as good as. People say that I'm a good player, but I always think of
> Kottke or any guitar player on any Steely Dan album, or 100s and 1000s
> and dozens of other players who I think are far better. I get by but
> there are some phenomenal players out there.
>
> I'd wager that even Jenn feels that way. :-) <---gratuitous troll

For sure. Whenever I think that I'm playing pretty well, I watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MseYTD5XYDQ&feature=related

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 07:59 AM

In article >,
MiNe 109 > wrote:

> In article >,
> Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
> > Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>
> Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
>
> Or maybe she can repost?
>
> Stephen

You mean Ed Gerhard, et al?

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 08:17 AM

On Feb 4, 1:58*am, Jenn > wrote:

> For sure. *Whenever I think that I'm playing pretty well, I watch this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MseYTD5XYDQ&feature=related

Thanks for posting that. Wow.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 08:37 AM

On Feb 4, 1:48*am, Jenn > wrote:

> I understand that. *I don't play much electric, but I've had a jones for
> an early 60s vintage Gretsch Country Gentleman since I was a kid, thanks
> to Chet Atkins, George Harrison, and Mike Nesmith. *Every time I have a
> chance to get one, I back off because I realize that it would totally be
> just a nostalgia move. *Someday though...

There's another one that got away.

When I was a young, single lieutenant I would pawn shop on the
weekends in Texas. It seemed that every pawn shop back then would have
a dot-neck Gibson ES-335, a beautiful Country Gentleman, a Tele or
Strat, or whatever. I passed on a couple of beautiful Gretschs that I
now wish I'd have picked up. They'd have the "regular" guitars out
front. I learned to ask, "Is this all you have?" Nine times out of ten
they'd go into the back room and pull something really sweet out. I
also passed on a Martin D-18 from the 1950s with a crack in the top.
The guy wanted a whopping $150. :-(

I picked a few guitars up but when I was married I wasn't playing out
much so I sold most of them off. Ditto my tube amplifier collection
which at one point numbered 18 (my ex just *loved* that. LOL!). I
picked up some great old Fender Super and Twin reverbs, Ampegs, Supros
and so on from those same pawn shops. I'm down to three amps now and
my Fender Vibrolux is already willed to my brother. That one will
never go away. :-)

Ah, the memories this thread brings back.

MiNe 109

February 4th 09, 12:13 PM

In article >,
Jenn > wrote:

> In article >,
> MiNe 109 > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> >
> > > Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
> >
> > Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
> >
> > Or maybe she can repost?
> >
> > Stephen
>
> You mean Ed Gerhard, et al?

Yes, you were showing the variety of finger-style artists.

Stephen

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 12:19 PM

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:56:22 -0600, MiNe 109
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
>> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>
>Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
>
>Or maybe she can repost?
>
>Stephen
I think I either need a repost or someone send me the links via
e-mail. I can hardly google "Jenn" and get anywhere. My ignorance is
woefully showing here

Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 12:28 PM

On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:54:02 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
Reason!" > wrote:

>I have a Tele that I like a lot. It's not "vintage" (its a US-made '52
>Tele reissue from about 1984 or so) that I got in a pawnshop outside a
>military base for $200. It's a screamer. I also have a Strat and a Les
>Paul (but not a '57 unfortunately). I play through three amps: a 1962
>Fender Vibrolux (the brown one, my favorite), a Marshall DSL 401 for
>rock or a 1970s Fender. I have the '70s Fender just because I got it
>so cheaply I couldn't pass it up. It's pretty terrible. All of them
>tubed of course. :-)
>
Of course, tubed. I may be a fan of SS in reproductive stuff, but
tubes were the only thing if you played.

>
>I used to listen to the Butterfield Blues Band in high school. Didn't
>he have James Cotton on harp at one point? Great music.

I don't remember that. I don't think Cotton was there in the early
'60's but I could be wrong. I liked gthe band but I was never a great
fan. There were so many other, better players and bands in the clubs
that never got a hearing. Butterfield's whiteness (plus Mike
Bloomfield, of course) helped commercial prospects enormously.

Without them, though, maybe we don't get Cream and the great British
Invasion later.
>

>
>My girlfriend and I go to Chicago somewhat regularly. There is still
>some absolutely great blues there. The Goldmine and Buddy Guy's
>Legends are two regular stops.

Still a great music town, better than NYC. Austin, Boston, LA and SF
are all good, too. College populations are important.

>
>I, OTOH, am a guitar god. :-)

Oh.

You mean, you're not The.........
>
>> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>
>Seriously, I think no matter what level you get to there's always the
>next one to keep you humble. Just when you think you've finally "got
>it" you hear some monster player that you just *know* you'll never be
>as good as.

For sure.

Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 12:33 PM

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:53:18 -0800, Jenn > wrote:

>> Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
>> some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
>> '60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
>> I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).
>
>The 40s-60s Martins were great. I played a 47 Martin OOO recently that
>was amazing.

I wish I had been there. That would have given great pleasure.
>
>>
>> Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
>> there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
>> of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
>> 000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
>> you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
>> and big Gibsons.
>
>Yep. I'm an OM (actually OMC) gal.
>

A great box. You know what you're doing when you choose an Orchestra
model
>>
>> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
>> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
>> you were into a National Steel
>
>National is located within 5 miles of my location. Great folks.

Do you hack around with them as well? I ask because most people either
"get" the steel sound or they have little interest.

Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 12:35 PM

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:49:16 -0800, Jenn > wrote:

>> That box never was right, matter what you did with it. It looked
>> great, sounded dull, and played worse, and all for more money than I
>> could easily afford back then. It was just about then that other
>> manufacturers began to appear on the scene. I played a couple of
>> Ovations for a while that had a lot going for them, not least being
>> they could takea pounding in a club and amplified really well (and you
>> didn't care what hapened to the wood around the bridge).
>>
>> The Taylors and the Santa Monicas
>
>Do you mean Santa Cruz? Excellent guitars.

I did. I told you it's been a long time.
>
>> and a host of others came a bit
>> later, too late for me to take advantage, but that's another story for
>> another time.
>>
>> I'm enjoying this thread. Lots to learn here.
>
>Cool, huh? ;-)

Always.

Herbert

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 03:59 PM

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:53:18 -0800, Jenn > wrote:
>
> >> Nothing....not even the best Tele or Strat I ever had compared with
> >> some of the old knocked around Martins I used to come across in the
> >> '60's. Some of those boxes dated back to the '40's, maybe earlier (but
> >> I could be wrong. That was a long time ago).
> >
> >The 40s-60s Martins were great. I played a 47 Martin OOO recently that
> >was amazing.
>
> I wish I had been there. That would have given great pleasure.
> >
> >>
> >> Paul Butterfield used to hang around the U of C when I was there, and
> >> there were a lot of guys competing to see who had the best chops. Most
> >> of them had great guitars, but the very best I remember were the
> >> 000's. They had the best combination of tone and action, especialy if
> >> you finger-picked. The bluegrass guys all stayed with the Dreadnaughts
> >> and big Gibsons.
> >
> >Yep. I'm an OM (actually OMC) gal.
> >
>
> A great box. You know what you're doing when you choose an Orchestra
> model
> >>
> >> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
> >> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
> >> you were into a National Steel
> >
> >National is located within 5 miles of my location. Great folks.
>
> Do you hack around with them as well? I ask because most people either
> "get" the steel sound or they have little interest.

Not much. That sound is not my ideal. But they are GREAT guys and
really have an appreciation of their history and they still do great
work. I'll take my instrument in there every now and then and jam with
their guys who are slide players. I learn a lot. Their shop is right
next door to Mike Baranik's, so I seem them every now and then. As an
aside, on a recent trip to Disney World in FL, I saw a guy in a street
band county act playing an old National tenor guitar. I asked him about
it and played it a bit. He didn't know the year, but we both thought
that it from sometime in the 1940s. Very cool.

The San Luis Obispo area is a regular little "hotbed" of acoustic guitar
activity. Baranik and National, Highlander, which makes great pickups
and DI boxes for acoustics, Ernie Ball, two really fine shops, LR Baggs,
one of the great acoustic pickup and amps makers in the world, great
players Dorian Michael, Tim Pacheco, Martin Paris and a notch down,
me... all is this small area. If you extend to Santa Barbara, you get
Seymour Duncan/D-Tar, Larrivee, and world-class player Kenny Sultan.
We're quite lucky here!

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 03:59 PM

In article >,
Herbert Hoover > wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:56:22 -0600, MiNe 109
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> >
> >> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
> >
> >Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
> >
> >Or maybe she can repost?
> >
> >Stephen
> I think I either need a repost or someone send me the links via
> e-mail. I can hardly google "Jenn" and get anywhere. My ignorance is
> woefully showing here
>
>
> Herbert

I don't have any YouTube videos of myself, but that is about to change.

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 04:11 PM

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:48:03 -0800, Jenn > wrote:

>> I now realize that one reason I didn't prefer the Martins and Gibsons
>> and Guilds back then was that in the mid-1970s most American large-
>> volume guitar manufacturers were having some severe quality issues. On
>> the electric side, "Pre-CBS" Fenders bring a premium. The 1970s stuff
>> doesn't hold a candle to it. Gibson (I have a couple of their
>> electrics) in the 1970s was pretty much trash. I think Martins from
>> the 1970s are likewise tainted and less desireable. Fortunately they
>> all seem to have sorted out the issues and are all again making
>> exceptional instruments.
>
>All true. Martin has made a huge comeback in quality with Chris Martin
>taking the reins. Their custom shop instruments, like mine, are
>handmade one at a time, from their best woods. Really stunning stuff.
>
>>
>> I love my Larrivee but I would drop it in a nanosecond for a Bozo for
>> nostalgia's sake if nothing else. And I haven't played one in 30
>> years. :-)
>
>I understand that. I don't play much electric, but I've had a jones for
>an early 60s vintage Gretsch Country Gentleman since I was a kid, thanks
>to Chet Atkins, George Harrison, and Mike Nesmith. Every time I have a
>chance to get one, I back off because I realize that it would totally be
>just a nostalgia move. Someday though...

The Gretsch! I had forgotten about the Gretsch.

I don't think of myself as nostalgic, but you guys keep bringing up
things that spark memories. Back in 1962, when all the cool kids were
playing folk music (badly) and blues (worse still) and rock was seen
as the province of the truly clueless, one of the kids in our Freshman
dorm had a big Country Gentleman Gretsch that he used to play Buddy
Holly and other Rockabilly stuff on.

The thing was, he could do things with that Gretsch none of us could
approach then. The kid could play, and that guitar with its slightly
rounded neck (if memory serves) was like nothing I had ever seen. It
was a silver grey, huge, with double (triple?) pickups, and a tan
plastic guard around the bridge.

The thing was.....that thing was big, bigger than any electric I had
ever seen. My guess is that it's as big as any box ever made, but
maybe my memory's playing tricks on me. At the time it seemed awkward,
although I'm not sure why since a Dreadnaught was probably as big, but
it's weight was impressive.

It had a mellow sound, really sweet, sort of like a damped Les Paul,
and made exactly the sort of sound you'd want if you were into Western
Swing. I don't think I've seen one since.

Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 04:17 PM

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:37:02 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
Reason!" > wrote:

>On Feb 4, 1:48*am, Jenn > wrote:
>
>> I understand that. *I don't play much electric, but I've had a jones for
>> an early 60s vintage Gretsch Country Gentleman since I was a kid, thanks
>> to Chet Atkins, George Harrison, and Mike Nesmith. *Every time I have a
>> chance to get one, I back off because I realize that it would totally be
>> just a nostalgia move. *Someday though...
>
>There's another one that got away.
>
>When I was a young, single lieutenant I would pawn shop on the
>weekends in Texas. It seemed that every pawn shop back then would have
>a dot-neck Gibson ES-335, a beautiful Country Gentleman, a Tele or
>Strat, or whatever. I passed on a couple of beautiful Gretschs that I
>now wish I'd have picked up. They'd have the "regular" guitars out
>front. I learned to ask, "Is this all you have?" Nine times out of ten
>they'd go into the back room and pull something really sweet out. I
>also passed on a Martin D-18 from the 1950s with a crack in the top.
>The guy wanted a whopping $150. :-(

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh!!

<weeping>

>I picked a few guitars up but when I was married I wasn't playing out
>much so I sold most of them off. Ditto my tube amplifier collection
>which at one point numbered 18 (my ex just *loved* that. LOL!). I
>picked up some great old Fender Super and Twin reverbs, Ampegs, Supros
>and so on from those same pawn shops. I'm down to three amps now and
>my Fender Vibrolux is already willed to my brother. That one will
>never go away. :-)

I'm jealous....welll, envious, anyway. I never owned more than one amp
at a time. Of course, given my talent level, having more than one
would have been past pretentious and into leading my neighbors to have
me arrested at the first available opportunity.

Herbert

Jenn[_3_]

February 4th 09, 04:17 PM

In article >,
MiNe 109 > wrote:

> In article >,
> Jenn > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > MiNe 109 > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
> > >
> > > Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
> > >
> > > Or maybe she can repost?
> > >
> > > Stephen
> >
> > You mean Ed Gerhard, et al?
>
> Yes, you were showing the variety of finger-style artists.
>
> Stephen

Here's some videos of some of my friends:

My teacher Laurence Juber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCSQn_Xbp-g
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7P4WXswTUI
(in both, he's playing his signature Martin, which I play)

Ed Gerhard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFzYaqNiL4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfyeMZFWhvs&feature=PlayList&p=22A809BD50F
85A85&playnext=1&index=25
(these are from the radio show "Woodsongs", a great thing to check out.

Doug Smith:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VmMH1kWQ9Q
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f5WRrUJu-8

Pete Huttlinger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRamobGYBCE

Enjoy!

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 04:31 PM

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 07:59:44 -0800, Jenn > wrote:

>In article >,
> Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:56:22 -0600, MiNe 109
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Such is life. I still melt when I hear good guitar playing.
>> >
>> >Google up Jenn's YouTube links!
>> >
>> >Or maybe she can repost?
>> >
>> >Stephen
>> I think I either need a repost or someone send me the links via
>> e-mail. I can hardly google "Jenn" and get anywhere. My ignorance is
>> woefully showing here
>>
>>
>> Herbert
>
>I don't have any YouTube videos of myself, but that is about to change.

That sounds like something to look forward to....

Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 04:44 PM

<snipped for brevity>....
>> >>
>> >> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
>> >> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
>> >> you were into a National Steel
>> >
>> >National is located within 5 miles of my location. Great folks.
>>
>> Do you hack around with them as well? I ask because most people either
>> "get" the steel sound or they have little interest.
>
>Not much. That sound is not my ideal. But they are GREAT guys and
>really have an appreciation of their history and they still do great
>work. I'll take my instrument in there every now and then and jam with
>their guys who are slide players. I learn a lot. Their shop is right
>next door to Mike Baranik's, so I seem them every now and then. As an
>aside, on a recent trip to Disney World in FL, I saw a guy in a street
>band county act playing an old National tenor guitar. I asked him about
>it and played it a bit. He didn't know the year, but we both thought
>that it from sometime in the 1940s. Very cool.

Funny thing is I love the steel sound when others do it, but I've
never lusted after having one myself, though I played a lot of
bottleneck, using a glass slide I fashioned out of a long neck Bud
bottle.

My deepest interest is jazz and chamber music now (well....despite my
Lohenghrin fiasco Opera, too, and I go several times a year) but
there's always been a place in my heart for slide players, whether
blues or country or whatever.
>
Herbert

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 05:11 PM

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 08:17:56 -0800, Jenn > wrote:

<snippped for brevity>
>
>Here's some videos of some of my friends:
>
>My teacher Laurence Juber:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCSQn_Xbp-g
>and
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7P4WXswTUI
>(in both, he's playing his signature Martin, which I play)

>
>Ed Gerhard:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFzYaqNiL4
>and
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfyeMZFWhvs&feature=PlayList&p=22A809BD50F
>85A85&playnext=1&index=25
>(these are from the radio show "Woodsongs", a great thing to check out.
>
>Doug Smith:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VmMH1kWQ9Q
>and
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f5WRrUJu-8
>
>Pete Huttlinger:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRamobGYBCE
>

All astounding, but Dog Smith's Stars & Stripes Forever left me
slack-jawed. Every note pristine and perfectly enunciated, tempos held
firmly in check, beautiful control of dynamics, and the man wasn't
breaking a sweat.

Many thanks for all of these.

Herbert

Boon

February 4th 09, 05:42 PM

I've been putting off changing the strings on my Telly for the last
three weeks. Thanks to you guys, I'm running out to the local music
store and getting it done today!

Do any of you have experience with some of the handmade guitars from
Hawaii that are made for the slack key players? My older brother is
associated with some of those guys (Makana, Keola Beamer, etc.), and
I've heard these guitars and think they're nearly unmatched in terms
of craftsmanship and sound quality. Some like the Grimes have two
openings in the body for an amazingly full and authoritative sound.
My brother has a guitar made by one of the masters (I can never
remember the name), and he had to wait two years for it to be made.
I've played it a couple of times, but I always get nervous about
holding it. It's like being told to dust the Mona Lisa.

Boon

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 4th 09, 06:32 PM

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:42:34 -0800 (PST), Boon >
wrote:

>I've been putting off changing the strings on my Telly for the last
>three weeks. Thanks to you guys, I'm running out to the local music
>store and getting it done today!
>
>Do any of you have experience with some of the handmade guitars from
>Hawaii that are made for the slack key players? My older brother is
>associated with some of those guys (Makana, Keola Beamer, etc.), and
>I've heard these guitars and think they're nearly unmatched in terms
>of craftsmanship and sound quality. Some like the Grimes have two
>openings in the body for an amazingly full and authoritative sound.
>My brother has a guitar made by one of the masters (I can never
>remember the name), and he had to wait two years for it to be made.
>I've played it a couple of times, but I always get nervous about
>holding it. It's like being told to dust the Mona Lisa.
>
>Boon

I've heard about fabulous Hawaiian guitars forever, but I've never
seen one, so, no, I'm no help, but I'd love to hear more if anyone
knows

Herbert

Jenn[_2_]

February 4th 09, 09:31 PM

In article
>,
Boon > wrote:

> I've been putting off changing the strings on my Telly for the last
> three weeks. Thanks to you guys, I'm running out to the local music
> store and getting it done today!
>
> Do any of you have experience with some of the handmade guitars from
> Hawaii that are made for the slack key players? My older brother is
> associated with some of those guys (Makana, Keola Beamer, etc.), and
> I've heard these guitars and think they're nearly unmatched in terms
> of craftsmanship and sound quality. Some like the Grimes have two
> openings in the body for an amazingly full and authoritative sound.
> My brother has a guitar made by one of the masters (I can never
> remember the name), and he had to wait two years for it to be made.
> I've played it a couple of times, but I always get nervous about
> holding it. It's like being told to dust the Mona Lisa.
>
> Boon

I'm not familiar with those guitars in general, but I am familiar with
the style. Look up Fran Guidry from the SF Bay area, a friend, who is a
leading mainlander supporter and player of the style.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

February 4th 09, 11:28 PM

On Feb 4, 10:44*am, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
> <snipped for brevity>....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> >> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
> >> >> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
> >> >> you were into a National Steel
>
> >> >National is located within 5 miles of my location. *Great folks.
>
> >> Do you hack around with them as well? I ask because most people either
> >> "get" the steel sound or they have little interest.
>
> >Not much. *That sound is not my ideal. *But they are GREAT guys and
> >really have an appreciation of their history and they still do great
> >work. *I'll take my instrument in there every now and then and jam with
> >their guys who are slide players. *I learn a lot. *Their shop is right
> >next door to Mike Baranik's, so I seem them every now and then. *As an
> >aside, on a recent trip to Disney World in FL, I saw a guy in a street
> >band county act playing an old National tenor guitar. *I asked him about
> >it and played it a bit. *He didn't know the year, but we both thought
> >that it from sometime in the 1940s. *Very cool.
>
> Funny thing is I love the steel sound when others do it, but I've
> never lusted after having one myself, though I played a lot of
> bottleneck, using a glass slide I fashioned out of a long neck Bud
> bottle.

My understanding is the old blues guys used Nationals so their guitars
wouldn't break during fights.

I wonder if that's an old myth or if there's truth behind it.

Herbert Hoover[_3_]

February 5th 09, 12:45 AM

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:28:04 -0800 (PST), "Shhhh! I'm Listening to
Reason!" > wrote:

>On Feb 4, 10:44*am, Herbert Hoover > wrote:
>> <snipped for brevity>....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> Later, like you and Jenn, I realized other folk were making better
>> >> >> guitars than Martin, Gibson or Guild, but for someone my age, unless
>> >> >> you were into a National Steel
>>
>> >> >National is located within 5 miles of my location. *Great folks.
>>
>> >> Do you hack around with them as well? I ask because most people either
>> >> "get" the steel sound or they have little interest.
>>
>> >Not much. *That sound is not my ideal. *But they are GREAT guys and
>> >really have an appreciation of their history and they still do great
>> >work. *I'll take my instrument in there every now and then and jam with
>> >their guys who are slide players. *I learn a lot. *Their shop is right
>> >next door to Mike Baranik's, so I seem them every now and then. *As an
>> >aside, on a recent trip to Disney World in FL, I saw a guy in a street
>> >band county act playing an old National tenor guitar. *I asked him about
>> >it and played it a bit. *He didn't know the year, but we both thought
>> >that it from sometime in the 1940s. *Very cool.
>>
>> Funny thing is I love the steel sound when others do it, but I've
>> never lusted after having one myself, though I played a lot of
>> bottleneck, using a glass slide I fashioned out of a long neck Bud
>> bottle.
>
>My understanding is the old blues guys used Nationals so their guitars
>wouldn't break during fights.
>
>I wonder if that's an old myth or if there's truth behind it.

Well, I saw plenty of fights in Blues clubs. No one was using a
National Steel. They didn't use their guitars, either. Chairs were a
big favorite, thou=gh, second only to a bottle.

Herbert