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View Full Version : A fawning review of a not bad, not really great unit


January 11th 09, 06:21 AM
((This from The Obsolete Sound. Now I have no beef with Manley, in
particular, but I auditioned one of these recently. It was sonically
no better than several common phono pre's I have heard and which are
available quite cheaply, although I was not able to listen to every
possible combination of cartridge and tone arm imaginable, indeed,
only three cartridges, to wit, a moderately expensive Grado, a Denon
DL-103 and a Ortofon low output MC cart.

But I thought this was really quite worshipful, like a review of a
Liza Minnelli concert by someone who thinks that Liza Minnelli must be
really, really great, because, well, she's really great, you know . ))






Web Exclusive -
Manley Labs Steelhead Phono Section
Scot Markwell
Once in a long while, as HP has said of things such as the original
Koetsu MC
phono cartridge, a truly great product comes along that, in a flash,
redefines an entire
genre of devices, and, like a star going supernova, eclipses all
others that have the
misfortune to be milling around in the same vicinity. Such a wondrous
and captivating
new piece of work is the Manley Labs Steelhead hybrid (tubes/FET/
autoformers) phono
section.
This product was conceived, as I understand it from EveAnna Manley,
as
something she had wanted for a long time so that she could listen to
all of the LPs
gathering dust on her shelves! So, she says, she figured “if we are
going to make
something, let’s do it right.”
So what do you get from such a vision? A two-piece (power supply and
head
unit), vacuum-tubed phono section that amplifies any known phono
cartridge, be it
moving magnet or moving coil, with whatever output (from the highest
to the lowest),
that is fitted with two MC and one MM cartridge inputs, and that
features both a fixed
output for use with preamps, and a variable output for those who want
to use it
directly into a power amplifier. This thing is designed to take no
prisoners and to make
no excuses.
- Web Exclusive -
Let me get right to the point: This is, and by a good margin, the
finest phono
amplifier I have ever heard, in my system or anyone else’s. Now,
please take into
account that there are other, more expensive (and yes, more esoteric)
phono sections
on the market, and some will listen and feel that another is better
(the big new Zanden
from Japan, courtesy of Bertrand Audio Imports, comes to mind as a
possibility, as well
as the famed FM Acoustics phono stage), but to my ear, and in the ways
I believe are
musically important, the Steelhead comes closer to doing it all than
any other.
Where to start? I suppose with areas nearest and dearest to my heart:
quality
and quantity of bass and overall visceral dynamic impact. The first
thing that grabs
your attention when you listen to this thing (and do not make the
mistake, as I did, to
dare to listen to it until it has been turned on for at least 4-5
hours the first time; after
initial warm-up and burn-in, it sounds quite decent 15-30 minutes
after coming out of
stand-by, which is where you should always leave it. Never turn it off
completely or
you have to start all over, in the manner of the Plinius M-14, my
reference phono
section.).
The first time I heard the Steelhead was in the Coincident Speaker
Technology
room at the 2001 CES in Las Vegas; there was a sound emanating from
that room that
shook me to the bones and sucked me in to see what all of the
commotion was about.
Israel Blume, Coincident’s front-man and designer, was playing some of
Chad
Kassem’s recent direct-to-disc blues recordings, and the realistic
bass, in amplitude,
tonal correctness, and tight, dynamic punch, was a revelation. Almost
a year later, in
my listening room with the same and other records, the impression
remains the same:
No other phono section can slam and wail in such a realistic manner in
the bass
frequencies as the Steelhead. Whether on blues, rock, jazz, or
classical recordings, the
lower registers are exceedingly well-served, and makes you realize why
this area of
frequencies is referred to as the foundation of all music. If the bass
is incorrect or not
as good as it can be, the entire spectrum suffers, all the way to the
highest highs.
(When you listen to a system that can convincingly reproduce truly low
bass [below 30
Hz], you realize that the highs sound better, as well, and that the
ambient cues of a
recording are more convincingly lifelike). Recordings with excellent
low bass, combined
with a sense of recorded ambience, such as Elgar’s Coronation Ode [EMI
ASD 3345],
are reproduced with a bigness and sense of spaciousness that is not
only appropriate,
but realistic in the sense of human scale. Then throw something
rowdier on the
turntable – Joe Harley’s AudioQuest direct-to-two-track all-analog
recording, Mighty
Sam McLain’s Give It Up to Love [AudioQuest AQ-LP 1015], for example,
and feel what
R&B is suppose to do to your booty, as well as your soul.
Hand-in-hand with the stunning bass quality of the Steelhead is its
ability to
capture the full dynamic impact of any recorded performance and bring
it back alive. I
have been playing disc after disc in an effort to see just how far I
could go, and if there
were a limit to the Steelhead’s ability to give back all that was
pumped through it. I
gave up before the Steelhead did. The Plinius M-14 is my reference and
an excellent
phono stage, but in this area, the Steelhead edges it out just a bit.
- Web Exclusive -
That last 1-2 dB of punch is revelatory on many recordings. Take my
old favorite,
Elgar’s Caractacus [EMI SLS 998]. There are sections where orchestra,
organ, and
large chorus are all in full cry, making a wondrous and spectacular
noise; when I
listened to this through the Steelhead, it was as if the room had come
alive, with a
great writhing musical beast storming out of the loudspeakers into the
room.
Spontaneous shouts of joy and even tears, as when I played the last
movement of
Mahler’s Eighth Symphony [London OSA 1295, with Solti and the Chicago
Symphony
and Chorus], were all but involuntary. This is, to me, one of the
truly great marks of
music reproduction in the home – when emotional impact is squeezed
from the listener
without conscious effort or thought.
Next up with this remarkable phono stage is its purity and lack of
distortion
artifacts. I have played a number of records I was convinced were
either over-
modulated or just plain hard to track and guess what I found out?
While the occasional
record is poorly cut or too hot or impossible to track, many have just
been overloading
the phono section! For instance, some of the passages on Joni
Mitchell’s Blue [Reprise
MS-2038, early pressing] are notoriously difficult for a cartridge to
navigate, let alone
for a phono section to decode. But with the Steelhead and a great
cartridge, like either
of the two moving-coil models I have been listening to of late, the
Sakura Systems/47
Labs Miyabi or the Dynavector DV XV1, Mitchell’s style, with all her
inflections and
timbre/pitch swings and modulations, comes through intact and with a
soaring
intensity and vibrancy that I had not heard before. Likewise with Chad
Kassem’s state-
of-the-art 45-RPM double album of Nancy Bryant songs [Neon Angel,
Acoustic Sounds
APO 2013]. Bryant’s voice is three parts Heaven and one part Devil. It
is beautiful and,
at times, stupifyingly difficult to reproduce cleanly, without
invoking the cringe factor,
either in the equipment or the listener. But through the Steelhead, in
the system that I
have been listening to for the past couple of months, she rings true
as a bell and with a
beautiful purity and dynamic nuance that sends shivers up my spine.
The bottom line: The Steelhead makes music; records and artists come
to life in
my room and bring me unsurpassed joy and a deliverance from the daily
pressures and
disappointments of life. I reveled in the depth and complexity of my
record collection,
as if I were in the grip of a time machine. Would that I could afford
it. When I take it to
HP’s for the big system, it shall be greatly missed.
What the Steelhead does not do, however, is romanticize or warm up
recordings.
There is a large-geometry JFET in front of the first tubed gain stage,
so the thing is not
fully a vacuum tube design. But this device’s solid-state signature is
quite benign (in
other words, warm and soft recordings sound warm and soft). The sonic
characteristics
of any given record are rendered with an even hand. I find the thing
refreshingly
neutral and, to a fault, truthful to the recording. Some may feel that
its stark portrayal
of the signal is a negative, wishing for a bit more additive warmth;
I, however, want to
know what is in the grooves, and the Steelhead tells me the truth.
- Web Exclusive -
In comparison to the Plinius M-14, the Groove, and the Aesthetix Io,
phono
sections I know well, the Steelhead is, in its character, most like
the Plinius; both have
a remarkably extended and stompingly powerful bass capability, as well
as exceptional
high-frequency air, and both are unfazed by any incoming signal, no
matter the level
or complexity. Both also do not add or subtract from the signal. This
is not to say that
either sounds transistorized; they are merely truthful. The Steelhead
has a tad more
body and weight to its images; things are a bit more fully fleshed.
But it should be so,
given that the Steelhead costs more than twice the Plinius. The Groove
is, despite its
totally modern and compact solid-state origins, a bit warmer and
bouncier in a friendly
sort of way, and has a slightly richer tonal quality. But it is not as
dynamic in the bass
or as wide-open in the treble as the Steelhead. Again, the price
differential dictates
that the Steelhead better be better. As for the Aesthetix Io, well, it
is tubed all the
way. Never overly warm or mushy, but musical and open in a way that
only pure tubes
can be, but with a price in noise and heat and rather short tube life,
never mind the
fact that the two rather large and clumsy black boxes that make up the
Io are not the
last word in style. But if the Steelhead did not exist, I might opt to
give overall top
honors to the Io, at least when it is in its perfect zone of tube
life, if I could live with
the heat and the vast number of tubes that need replacing at re-tubing
time.
But the Steelhead does exist, and anyone who is serious enough to
consider
spending $7,300 on a stand-alone phono section, and who has a large
enough record
collection to make the thought of purchasing one less than insane,
should somehow
find a way to listen to the Manley.
Sidebar
EveAnna Manley on the Steelhead
EveAnna Manley granted me permission to quote from her website her
explanation of
the rather complex features and technical aspects of the Steelhead.
She says it with
more flair and humor than I could; I find her a breath of fresh air in
an industry full of
stiffness and hot wind much of the time. She says:
The Steelhead … is an “upstream” device, and has a clever MC variable
load auto
tranny that Mitch Margolis (on-staff Manley hi-fi designer) designed
and our very own
Manley Magnetics department executed (which makes the MC stage so
clever). It has
two moving-coil inputs with selectable impedance loads of 25, 50, 100,
200 and 400
ohms via Mr. Clever "Steelhead" transformer/autoformer. Iron =
transformer =
"steel"; makes sense to me...
It also has variable and selectable Moving Magnet input impedances
too: 25, 50,
100, 200 ohms and 47Kohms. Very nifty is the selectable-dial-able-in-
able-from-the-
faceplate-able capacitive loading for all three of the MM & MC inputs:
0 to 1100
picofarads in 10 picofarad steps. Very cool! Equalize baby! Ten
picofard steps!
- Web Exclusive -
It's got six tubes. 2 x 6922 plus 4 x 7044. It's got a big honkin'
volume control.
It can drive an amplifier directly if you want, if you don't "do"
digital. Hey, and if you
happen to have three turntables set up, we give you 2 x MC and 1 x MM
selectable
inputs! It's got variable and fixed volume outputs. And all-tube
really low-Z tube
buffered outputs. Like inherently 20 ohms plus the little 47 ohm "OK
drive those high
capacitance audiophile cables why doncha" resistor, so its real output
impedance is
only 67 ohms. No wanky cathode follower (oh bor-ing) output here like
the other guys.
We got your real low impedance all-tube outputs right here!
It's got selectable gain: 50, 55, 60, 65dB on a switch
that even auto-mutes as
you change it so no nasty bangs. Gain switch markings are referred to
from the input
of the 1st active electronics at 1 kHz to the fixed output @ 10k load,
regardless of
whether source is MM or transformer stepped-up MC. It is not really
practical to include
MC step-up gain on the front panel markings due to the variable SOURCE
impedances
of the MC cartridges and the variable loading that the input XFMR will
have on any
given cartridge. All of this total MC gain variability should be
confined to about 3 to 12
dB of range, though. Transformer step-up gain plateaus as the load Z
on a given MC
cartridge is optimized...producing no VOLTAGE gain but in fact a bit
more power gain...
The user should set a load Z which sounds best with his/her particular
MC cartridge
and adjust gain to suit their system's operating level. Bottom line:
there is plenty of
gain... enough to do justice to your fave lo-output MC cartridges).
It's got a mute switch. It's got a "just turn it down
while I cue up so I don't
throw my woofer cones across the room but I still want the same volume
I was
listening at before I turned the side" DIM switch. And what goes with
DIM better than
SUM, which would be the MONO button... It has a killer hyper-
regulated outboard
power supply that plugs in on the huge-est connector you ever saw. And
you can just
hit the "standby" button to keep everybody (in the phono section) off
while you take a
small holiday to Tahiti. A backlit "MANLEY STEELHEAD" badge
illuminated by an old-
fashioned lamp (remember those?) reflects back to vinyl-days-of-yore
while the
millions of BLUE LEDs remind you that this is modern tube engineering
design, baby!
A couple of caveats: Although the Steelhead itself is well shielded
and quite
free of any hum, noise, and RF interference in its own domain, I was
able to induce
rather bad RF into it when using interconnects from my turntable that
were a bit long
(almost 2 meters). I suggest that the Steelhead be situated such that
lengths greater
than one meter are avoided, or you may be listening to your local
radio stations as well
as your records.
Also, despite the fact that the MC input autoformer transformers in
the Steelhead
are remarkably transparent and quiet, transient response and ultimate
high-frequency
air are slightly compromised compared to connecting via the MM inputs.
Also, the
background noise signature of the MM input is just a bit of low-level
hiss, while the
same artifacts through the MC input modulate as an ever-so-slight hum.
Not obtrusive
at all, and I could only really hear it when listening with the 97-dB
sensitive Coincident
Speaker Technology Victories, but it was there.
- Web Exclusive -
Manufacturer Information
Manley Laboratories, Inc.
13880 Magnolia Ave., Chino, California 91710
Phone: (909) 627-4256; fax: (909) 628-2482
www.manleylabs.com

Associated Equipment
VPI HW-19 MK IV turntable w/ JMW Memorial 10.5 arm and SAMA (Stand
Alone Motor
Assembly)
VPI Synchronous Drive Unit motor controller; Sakura Systems/47 Labs
Miyabi and
Dynavector DV XV1 MC cartridges; Marigo Audio Labs MR 20.2 PH/F,
Hovland Groove
2, and EX Cell Power Solutions Groove Tube phono interconnects;
Siltech Gen 3 and
Gen 5 interconnects, Siltech LS 180 Gen 3 speaker cable
Audio Magic silver interconnects; Stealth Audio Silver and gold
interconnects and silver
ribbon speaker cables; Wyetech Labs Jade (tubed) and Plinius CD-LAD
(solid-state)
linestage preamplifiers; Forsell Air Reference CD Drive; EAD
TheatreMaster DAC;
Custom Power Cord Company Green Hornet coaxial digital cable;
Coincident Speaker
Technology SIP 300B SET stereo integrated amplifier; Wyetech Labs
Topaz 572B
stereo SET amplifier; Dehavilland Aries 845 SET mono amplifiers;
Custom Power Cord
Company Top Gun HCFi A/C power cords and super power blocks; Arcici
Suspense
Rack

Boon
January 12th 09, 03:46 AM
This review is seven years old. Again, I'm waiting for the day when
you are relevant to this newsgroup.

Boon

January 12th 09, 05:49 AM
On Jan 11, 9:46 pm, Boon > wrote:
> This review is seven years old. Again, I'm waiting for the day when
> you are relevant to this newsgroup.
>
> Boon

This unit is still on offer new at audio saloons today. Again, I'm
waiting for the day when you are relevant to anything whatsoever.

Boon
January 12th 09, 07:28 AM
On Jan 11, 9:49�pm, wrote:
> On Jan 11, 9:46 pm, Boon > wrote:
>
> > This review is seven years old. �Again, I'm waiting for the day when
> > you are relevant to this newsgroup.
>
> > Boon
>
> �This unit is still on offer new at audio saloons today. Again, I'm
> waiting for the day when you are relevant to anything whatsoever.

I've had plenty of experience with the unit in question and have met
with Eveanna Manley. You're posting seven-year-old reviews of it on a
newsgroup that largely ignores you. I'd say that answers the
relevancy question.

Boon

January 12th 09, 08:22 AM
>
> I've had plenty of experience with the unit in question and have met
> with Eveanna Manley. You're posting seven-year-old reviews of it on a
> newsgroup that largely ignores you. I'd say that answers the
> relevancy question.

I've met EveAnna Manley twice. Both times at NYC AES. The first was
with Dave, I thought he was an okay guy, pretty lucky in fact. Then
after she dumped him and cleaned his clock. Lucky? Poor ******* never
knew what hit him.


The notorious geriatric opiated sodomite William Burroughs, who I
used to see regularly in KCMO with his bull-poofer "amaneusis"
Grauerholtz-but never knew why (he was going to what was a cunningly
disguised methadone clinic) had a routine that included the
observation, "Beware of whores who say they don't want money. What
they mean is, they want more money. Much more money".

Boon
January 12th 09, 04:14 PM
On Jan 12, 12:22�am, wrote:
> > I've had plenty of experience with the unit in question and have met
> > with Eveanna Manley. �You're posting seven-year-old reviews of it on a
> > newsgroup that largely ignores you. �I'd say that answers the
> > relevancy question.
>
> �I've met EveAnna Manley twice. Both times at NYC AES. The first was
> with Dave, I thought he was an okay guy, pretty lucky in fact. Then
> after she dumped him and cleaned his clock. Lucky? Poor ******* never
> knew what hit him.

I heard the other side of the story. That's what happens in
divorces. An adult knows how to listen to both sides and realize the
truth is somewhere in the middle.

>
> �The notorious geriatric opiated sodomite William Burroughs, who I
> used to see regularly in KCMO with his bull-poofer "amaneusis"
> Grauerholtz-but never knew why (he was going to what was a cunningly
> disguised methadone clinic) had a routine that included the
> observation, "Beware of whores who say they don't want money. What
> they mean is, they want more money. Much more money".

Then again, you judged the sound quality of a $7300 phono stage with
several $300 cartridges and came to the conclusion that it was okay.
Hmmm...an adult would figure that one pretty quickly as well.

Boon

January 13th 09, 09:03 AM
On Jan 12, 10:14 am, Boon > wrote:
> On Jan 12, 12:22 am, wrote:
>
> > > I've had plenty of experience with the unit in question and have met
> > > with Eveanna Manley. You're posting seven-year-old reviews of it on a
> > > newsgroup that largely ignores you. I'd say that answers the
> > > relevancy question.
>
> > I've met EveAnna Manley twice. Both times at NYC AES. The first was
> > with Dave, I thought he was an okay guy, pretty lucky in fact. Then
> > after she dumped him and cleaned his clock. Lucky? Poor ******* never
> > knew what hit him.
>
> I heard the other side of the story. That's what happens in
> divorces. An adult knows how to listen to both sides and realize the
> truth is somewhere in the middle.

I really don't care about the boy-girl stuff as it pertains to other
people, I figure that's their business. What is the business of
outsiders is that David had the technical acumen to do what it was
Manley and VTL purport to do and neither EveAnna nor Luke do. The
early VTL equipment was not billet-encased and saloon pimped, but it
worked, it worked really well (for the most part0 and it was simple
and maintainable.

It's much like Mark Levinson. Now, the last thing associated with
that name to be any great shakes in audio equipment was the old John
Curl designed stuff, but the ML name still carries huge prestiege in
the saloons. Of course, ML was more famous for having married the
televitz star Kim Cattrall, and having co-authored with her a sex
manual. After the publication of this (very explicit) sex manual they
got divorced. I don't care why or the details, what's relevant is that
the equipment bearing the Mark Levinson brand name is not particularly
good when indexed to price. Not one ML piece made since the 80s is
superior to many units available at far lesser prices. Nor has the
stuff Levinson has put out under names like Red Rose exactly set the
world on fire.
>
>
>
> > The notorious geriatric opiated sodomite William Burroughs, who I
> > used to see regularly in KCMO with his bull-poofer "amaneusis"
> > Grauerholtz-but never knew why (he was going to what was a cunningly
> > disguised methadone clinic) had a routine that included the
> > observation, "Beware of whores who say they don't want money. What
> > they mean is, they want more money. Much more money".
>
> Then again, you judged the sound quality of a $7300 phono stage with
> several $300 cartridges and came to the conclusion that it was okay.
> Hmmm...an adult would figure that one pretty quickly as well.

I looked at the Manley unit and back-of-the-envelope estimated build
cost was about seven or eight hundred US$. Maybe a grand if they were
generous with suppliers. I then listened to those same carts with 1)
regular old commercially available equipment available for a few
hundred bucks and 2) homebrews that could be cobbled up for twenty to
fifty bucks. The former sounded pretty good and the latter did too,
with one of the latter working exceptionally well with the Ortofon,
better than the Manley unit by a considerable margin.

Arny Krueger
January 13th 09, 12:25 PM
> wrote in message


> what's relevant is that the equipment
> bearing the Mark Levinson brand name is not particularly
> good when indexed to price. Not one ML piece made since
> the 80s is superior to many units available at far lesser
> prices

Mark Leveinson is just another Harman brand. I think it shows up on audio
systems in cars sold on the Pacific rim.

Boon
January 13th 09, 04:23 PM
On Jan 13, 1:03�am, wrote:
> On Jan 12, 10:14 am, Boon > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 12, 12:22 am, wrote:
>
> > > > I've had plenty of experience with the unit in question and have met
> > > > with Eveanna Manley. You're posting seven-year-old reviews of it on a
> > > > newsgroup that largely ignores you. I'd say that answers the
> > > > relevancy question.
>
> > > I've met EveAnna Manley twice. Both times at NYC AES. The first was
> > > with Dave, I thought he was an okay guy, pretty lucky in fact. Then
> > > after she dumped him and cleaned his clock. Lucky? Poor ******* never
> > > knew what hit him.
>
> > I heard the other side of the story. �That's what happens in
> > divorces. �An adult knows how to listen to both sides and realize the
> > truth is somewhere in the middle.
>
> �I really don't care about the boy-girl stuff as it pertains to other
> people, I figure that's their business. What is the business of
> outsiders is that David had the technical acumen to do what it was
> Manley and VTL purport to do and neither EveAnna nor Luke do. The
> early VTL equipment was not billet-encased and saloon pimped, but it
> worked, it worked really well (for the most part0 and it was simple
> and maintainable.
>
> �It's much like Mark Levinson. Now, the last thing associated with
> that name to be any great shakes in audio equipment was the old John
> Curl designed stuff, but the ML name still carries huge prestiege in
> the saloons. Of course, ML was more famous for having married the
> televitz star Kim Cattrall, and having co-authored with her a sex
> manual. After the publication of this (very explicit) �sex manual they
> got divorced. I don't care why or the details, what's relevant is that
> the equipment bearing the Mark Levinson brand name is not particularly
> good when indexed to price. Not one ML piece made since the 80s is
> superior to many units available at far lesser prices. Nor has the
> stuff Levinson has put out under names like Red Rose exactly set the
> world on fire.
>
>
>
> > > The notorious geriatric opiated sodomite William Burroughs, who I
> > > used to see regularly in KCMO with his bull-poofer "amaneusis"
> > > Grauerholtz-but never knew why (he was going to what was a cunningly
> > > disguised methadone clinic) had a routine that included the
> > > observation, "Beware of whores who say they don't want money. What
> > > they mean is, they want more money. Much more money".
>
> > Then again, you judged the sound quality of a $7300 phono stage with
> > several $300 cartridges and came to the conclusion that it was okay.
> > Hmmm...an adult would figure that one pretty quickly as well.
>
> �I looked at the Manley unit and back-of-the-envelope estimated build
> cost was about seven or eight hundred US$. Maybe a grand if they were
> generous with suppliers. I then listened to those same carts with 1)
> regular old commercially available equipment available for a few
> hundred bucks and 2) homebrews that could be cobbled up for twenty to
> fifty bucks. The former sounded pretty good and the latter did too,
> with one of the latter working exceptionally well �with the Ortofon,
> better than the Manley unit by a considerable margin.

Again, these modest cartridge designs can seriously limit the
performance of a high-quality phono preamp so that there aren't major
differences between them. If you had better equipment for your
evaluations, you'd hear bigger differences. It's not brain surgery
and it has nothing to do with price. I'll give you some credit for
the Denon 103 since it is a seriously good cartridge for the money.
Grados, however, are overly warm and forgiving and tend to obscure
detail. Ortofons are generally nice but it depends what model you are
talking about. I've owned a couple of them in the $200 to $300 and
they were very good, but I wouldn't waste a $7300 phono preamp on
them. $730 maybe, and that would be pushing it.

I do agree with you on Mark Levinson, though. And I'm not saying the
Steelhead is my favorite of all time...I think I prefer the sound of
the Nagra VPA or the conrad-johnson TEA-1 or the Aesthetix Io. But
I've been able to use extremely revealing equipment to make these
comparisons. I wasn't strapping on $300 cartridges for a few minutes
at an "audio saloon."

Boon

Boon
January 13th 09, 04:24 PM
On Jan 13, 4:25�am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
>
>
> > what's relevant is that the equipment
> > bearing the Mark Levinson brand name is not particularly
> > good when indexed to price. Not one ML piece made since
> > the 80s is superior to many units available at far lesser
> > prices
>
> Mark Leveinson is just another Harman brand.

Harman does not own any company named "Mark Leveinson."

I think it shows up on audio
> systems in cars sold on the Pacific rim.

Unless it shows up on a Mercury, there's no way for you to know, eh?

Boon

January 18th 09, 06:31 AM
>
> > > Then again, you judged the sound quality of a $7300 phono stage with
> > > several $300 cartridges and came to the conclusion that it was okay.
> > > Hmmm...an adult would figure that one pretty quickly as well.

An adult of scientific bent would only listen without knowing prices
or brand names because he would be the first to admit his judgment
would be polluted otherwise.
>
> > I looked at the Manley unit and back-of-the-envelope estimated build
> > cost was about seven or eight hundred US$. Maybe a grand if they were
> > generous with suppliers. I then listened to those same carts with 1)
> > regular old commercially available equipment available for a few
> > hundred bucks and 2) homebrews that could be cobbled up for twenty to
> > fifty bucks. The former sounded pretty good and the latter did too,
> > with one of the latter working exceptionally well with the Ortofon,
> > better than the Manley unit by a considerable margin.
>
> Again, these modest cartridge designs can seriously limit the
> performance of a high-quality phono preamp so that there aren't major
> differences between them. If you had better equipment for your
> evaluations, you'd hear bigger differences. It's not brain surgery
> and it has nothing to do with price. I'll give you some credit for
> the Denon 103 since it is a seriously good cartridge for the money.
> Grados, however, are overly warm and forgiving and tend to obscure
> detail. Ortofons are generally nice but it depends what model you are
> talking about. I've owned a couple of them in the $200 to $300 and
> they were very good, but I wouldn't waste a $7300 phono preamp on
> them. $730 maybe, and that would be pushing it.
>
> I do agree with you on Mark Levinson, though. And I'm not saying the
> Steelhead is my favorite of all time...I think I prefer the sound of
> the Nagra VPA or the conrad-johnson TEA-1 or the Aesthetix Io. But
> I've been able to use extremely revealing equipment to make these
> comparisons. I wasn't strapping on $300 cartridges for a few minutes
> at an "audio saloon."


I'll believe that when we see a really thorough scientific listening
test showing that you can tell them apart with a high degree of
consistency. i don't doubt you believe you can: I think neither you
nor anyone else very consistently can.

I'm also certain that some of the most revealing setups are things
built in garages to extremely minimal standards marketwise. Most of
htem would be unmarketable commercially due to the extreme PITA factor
truly minimalist designs entail. It's like a hot rod with Hilborn fuel
injection: you could run one but you have to understand it 100% and be
willing to constantly dink with it. The level of dink-with-it-ness
tolerable in a commercial product, especially one of substantial price
is really minimal and so serious compromises are inevitable.

I'm also certain that whatever their sonic merits, MOST high dollar
carts are bought for WGBD purposes by very affluent but not terribly
knowledgeable people.

That is a lot of certainty, yes. So you want a mere opinion? My
opinion: Based on some recent EveAnna Manley photos i've seen, she
ought to go to whatever plastic surgeon Debbie Harry does.

Boon
January 18th 09, 11:51 PM
On Jan 17, 10:31�pm, wrote:
> > > > Then again, you judged the sound quality of a $7300 phono stage with
> > > > several $300 cartridges and came to the conclusion that it was okay..
> > > > Hmmm...an adult would figure that one pretty quickly as well.
>
> �An adult of scientific bent would only listen without knowing prices
> or brand names because he would be the first to admit his judgment
> would be polluted otherwise.

Not when it's so out of proportion. The best sounding equipment is not
cheap to manufacture. Do some $1000 cartridges sound better than some
$1500 ones? Absolutely. But there is no magic $300 that can pass
itself off as a $3000 cartridge. I'll take that challenge any day.

You keep forgetting that I have plenty of seat time with this stuff,
and you're limited to visiting your dreaded audio saloons.


> > > I looked at the Manley unit and back-of-the-envelope estimated build
> > > cost was about seven or eight hundred US$. Maybe a grand if they were
> > > generous with suppliers. I then listened to those same carts with 1)
> > > regular old commercially available equipment available for a few
> > > hundred bucks and 2) homebrews that could be cobbled up for twenty to
> > > fifty bucks. The former sounded pretty good and the latter did too,
> > > with one of the latter working exceptionally well with the Ortofon,
> > > better than the Manley unit by a considerable margin.
>
> > Again, these modest cartridge designs can seriously limit the
> > performance of a high-quality phono preamp so that there aren't major
> > differences between them. If you had better equipment for your
> > evaluations, you'd hear bigger differences. �It's not brain surgery
> > and it has nothing to do with price. �I'll give you some credit for
> > the Denon 103 since it is a seriously good cartridge for the money.
> > Grados, however, are overly warm and forgiving and tend to obscure
> > detail. �Ortofons are generally nice but it depends what model you are
> > talking about. �I've owned a couple of them in the $200 to $300 and
> > they were very good, but I wouldn't waste a $7300 phono preamp on
> > them. �$730 maybe, and that would be pushing it.
>
> > I do agree with you on Mark Levinson, though. �And I'm not saying the
> > Steelhead is my favorite of all time...I think I prefer the sound of
> > the Nagra VPA or the conrad-johnson TEA-1 or the Aesthetix Io. �But
> > I've been able to use extremely revealing equipment to make these
> > comparisons. �I wasn't strapping on $300 cartridges for a few minutes
> > at an "audio saloon."
>
> �I'll believe that when we see a really thorough scientific listening
> test showing that you can tell them apart with a high degree of
> consistency. i don't doubt you believe you can: I think neither you
> nor anyone else very consistently can.

You have "beliefs" about scientific listening? That says a lot.

>
> �I'm also certain that some of the most revealing setups are things
> built in garages to extremely minimal standards marketwise. Most of
> htem would be unmarketable commercially due to the extreme PITA factor
> truly minimalist designs entail. It's like a hot rod with Hilborn fuel
> injection: you could run one but you have to understand it 100% and be
> willing to constantly dink with it. The level of dink-with-it-ness
> tolerable in a commercial product, especially one of substantial price
> is really minimal and so serious compromises are inevitable.

Like hard-wiring speaker cables into the speakers. I agree.

>
> �I'm also certain that whatever their sonic merits, MOST high dollar
> carts are bought for WGBD purposes by very affluent but not terribly
> knowledgeable people.

That's always been a bull**** argument. Most of the guys who buy this
gear are doctors, lawyers, professionals...pretty sharp guys in the
real world. Yet you audio Have-Nots instantly think they turn into
morons when it comes to audio. You're the audio equivalent of a guy
who doesn't understand the difference between fine wines because beer
gets you just as drunk. You're all bores.

>
> �That is a lot of certainty, yes. So you want a mere opinion? My
> opinion: Based on some recent EveAnna Manley photos i've seen, she
> ought to go to whatever plastic surgeon Debbie Harry does.

Not every woman wants to look like Marilyn Monroe. Besides, in person
she is very cute and has beautiful blue eyes. And she's funny as
hell.

Boon