Turntables with "thick" platters

[mrgou[_2_]]

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

Thanks in advance.

Raph

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:29:29 -0800 (PST), mrgou >
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
>platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
>wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
>makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
>makes them so expensive?

More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

Kal

[Arny Krueger]

"mrgou" > wrote in message

> Hi,
>
> I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very
> thick platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI.
> I'm really wondering what the advantage of such platters
> is, what difference it makes. I noticed that a single
> platter can cost up to 2,000$. What makes them so
> expensive?

Perceived value.

I've been trying to collect actual performance measurements on LP playback
systems. While I don't have enough data to claim a definitive result, it
appears that sound quality (if accuracy is desired) goes down once the
TT=arm+cart > $600. The more expensive cartrdiges in particular seem to have
a broad, gentle roll-off and perhaps more low-order nonlinear distortion.

[Eeyore]

mrgou wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
> platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
> wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
> makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
> makes them so expensive?

Marketing hype mostly @ that price.

The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and flutter. The
one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds IIRC and the wight is mainly at
the outer edge where it helps best.

However modern drive motors should need such help. The 401 merely had a
synchronous motor, not a crystal locked servo one like a modern
turntable should have.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

> mrgou > wrote:
> >
> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
> >makes them so expensive?
>
> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.

Of course such problems are no longer present with digital media.

Graham

[[email protected]]

Eeyore wrote:
>
> mrgou wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
>> platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
>> wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
>> makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
>> makes them so expensive?
>
> Marketing hype mostly @ that price.
>
> The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and flutter. The
> one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds IIRC and the wight is mainly at
> the outer edge where it helps best.
>
> However modern drive motors should need such help. The 401 merely had a
> synchronous motor, not a crystal locked servo one like a modern
> turntable should have.

The wow caused by off center holes in almost >ALL< LP's dwarfs that
caused by decent turntables themselves.

[Eeyore]

wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > mrgou wrote:
> >>
> >> I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
> >> platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
> >> wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
> >> makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
> >> makes them so expensive?
> >
> > Marketing hype mostly @ that price.
> >
> > The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and flutter. The
> > one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds IIRC and the wight is mainly at
> > the outer edge where it helps best.
> >
> > However modern drive motors should need such help. The 401 merely had a
> > synchronous motor, not a crystal locked servo one like a modern
> > turntable should have.
>
> The wow caused by off center holes in almost >ALL< LP's dwarfs that
> caused by decent turntables themselves.

I'm sure you're right. I'll also take the opportunity to correct my post

"However modern drive motors should NOT need such help"

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message

> Eeyore wrote:
>>
>> mrgou wrote:

>>> I recently came across high-end turntables featuring
>>> very thick platters, such as the Scout or Aries series
>>> by VPI. I'm really wondering what the advantage of such
>>> platters is, what difference it makes. I noticed that a
>>> single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What makes them
>>> so expensive?

>> Marketing hype mostly @ that price.

>> The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and
>> flutter. The one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds
>> IIRC and the wight is mainly at the outer edge where it
>> helps best.

The Garrard 401 needed that kind of mass and perhaps more, because it used
a massive induction motor and an idler-wheel drive.

>> However modern drive motors should need such help. The
>> 401 merely had a synchronous motor, not a crystal locked
>> servo one like a modern turntable should have.

> The wow caused by off center holes in almost >ALL< LP's
> dwarfs that caused by decent turntables themselves.

Agreed. Excellent observation!

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:24:21 +0000, Eeyore
> wrote:

>
>
>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>
>> mrgou > wrote:
>> >
>> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
>> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
>> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
>> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
>> >makes them so expensive?
>>
>> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
>> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.
>
>NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
>flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.

Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.

>Of course such problems are no longer present with digital media.

Granted.

Kal

[Eeyore]

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

> Eeyore > wrote:
> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> >> mrgou > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
> >> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
> >> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
> >> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
> >> >makes them so expensive?
> >>
> >> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
> >> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.
> >
> >NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
> >flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.
>
> Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
> accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.

Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
'drift' from accuracy. I recall you could adjust the speed on the 401 so the
strobe light held the markers absolutely static and go back 10 mins later and
it could have drifted either way. That's stability and is not helped by large
platters.

Graham

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:44:59 +0000, Eeyore
> wrote:

>
>
>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>
>> Eeyore > wrote:
>> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>> >> mrgou > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
>> >> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
>> >> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
>> >> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
>> >> >makes them so expensive?
>> >>
>> >> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
>> >> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.
>> >
>> >NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
>> >flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.
>>
>> Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
>> accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.
>
>Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
>'drift' from accuracy.

I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
unaffected.

>I recall you could adjust the speed on the 401 so the
>strobe light held the markers absolutely static and go back 10 mins later and
>it could have drifted either way. That's stability and is not helped by large
>platters.

Perhaps we should talk about short-term and long-term
accuracy? ;-)

Kal

[Eeyore]

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

> Eeyore > wrote:
> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> >> Eeyore > wrote:
> >> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> >> >> mrgou > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
> >> >> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
> >> >> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
> >> >> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
> >> >> >makes them so expensive?
> >> >>
> >> >> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
> >> >> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.
> >> >
> >> >NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
> >> >flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.
> >>
> >> Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
> >> accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.
> >
> >Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
> >'drift' from accuracy.
>
> I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
> unaffected.

You misread me. Try adding a comma after flutter but one is not supposed to do
that before an and or but.

Graham

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:03:45 +0000, Eeyore
> wrote:

>
>
>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>
>> Eeyore > wrote:
>> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>> >> Eeyore > wrote:
>> >> >Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>> >> >> mrgou > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
>> >> >> >platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
>> >> >> >wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
>> >> >> >makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
>> >> >> >makes them so expensive?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
>> >> >> momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.
>> >> >
>> >> >NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
>> >> >flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.
>> >>
>> >> Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
>> >> accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.
>> >
>> >Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
>> >'drift' from accuracy.
>>
>> I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
>> unaffected.
>
>You misread me. Try adding a comma after flutter but one is not supposed to do
>that before an and or but.

OK. Still a matter of semantics. Any stray from absolute perfection
is a problem. If that error is cyclic and the average speed over time
remains correct, I would not call that a drift. OTOH, if there is a
progressive deviation away from the correct, such that the long-term
average is no longer correct, that seems to me to be appropriately
called drift. I invite you to define these, too.

Kal

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, () wrote:
>If you mean versus the plastic frisbees you
>get on cheap things, you also have to consider
>resonance dampening. You can find spindle clamps
>to make even better contact with the turntable
>platter/mat. Used to.
>
> http://40th.com/gfx/audio_hw/pioneer_pl600_1979.html
>
>is an example of a heavy platter. Well, it's
>not that heavy, being aluminum, but it's 2 lbs
>heavier than plastic ones.
>
>There is also the flywheel effect. Contrary
>to what some may think, hall-effect motors
>don't "run" 100%, so the more mass the merrier.
>And if you can build it this way, why not.
>30 years old and it still operates fine.
>

My old AR was supposed to slip a bit so the motor would not lock up.
I think my old Thorens had a slip clutch.
You used talcum on the belt. Heavy paltters must have a medium in between
the record and platter so the vibrations are fed through and dissapated. Having
the wrong medium can cause a build up of record vibration and record clamps can
also help damp the vibrations. Vacuum clamping is supperior. Records are too light to get
good coupling. I should say clamping WILL reduce record vibrations. DJ's want a low mass platter
and direct drive so the records starts very quickly, but slip mats are still used.

greg