Speaker overload (tweeter) protection using bulbs (repost) [Archive]

Eeyore

November 14th 08, 10:44 PM

This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
out under conditions of 'overdrive'.

There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.

The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.

I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
fixed it.

But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.

I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?

In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
coil rub.

Graham

jakdedert

November 15th 08, 12:03 AM

Eeyore wrote:
> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>
> There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
>
> The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
>
> I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> fixed it.
>
> But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
>
> I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>
> In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
> coil rub.
>
> Graham
>
I imagine that there are variations in lamps, given that they are
designed to provide 'light', not speaker protection. I suspect you'll
find an issue with the driver, though. Swap them around to check and/or
do a sweep test.

I just picked up a set of Bose (I know...they were cheap) 201s at a
thrift store. The only thing wrong with them--besides being Bose--were
the blown out protection lamps in series with the tweeters. Not bad for
$7.99, plus the cost of two lamps...altogether less than $10. They'll
make decent computer speakers for my 12 year old.

jak

jak

Eeyore

November 15th 08, 12:33 AM

jakdedert wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> > out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >
> > There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
> >
> > The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
> >
> > I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> > thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> > checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> > fixed it.
> >
> > But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
> >
> > I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> > occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> > weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> > it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> > wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
> >
> > In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
> > coil rub.
>
> I imagine that there are variations in lamps, given that they are
> designed to provide 'light', not speaker protection. I suspect you'll
> find an issue with the driver, though. Swap them around to check and/or
> do a sweep test.

A 'swap', or rather replacement, was done earlier with no good effect. Hence I
laid the suspicion on the damaged push-ons. I will still test the drivers
though. I have 2 drivers that measure ok plus a third blown one and a
replacement diaphragm.

> I just picked up a set of Bose (I know...they were cheap) 201s at a
> thrift store. The only thing wrong with them--besides being Bose--were
> the blown out protection lamps in series with the tweeters. Not bad for
> $7.99, plus the cost of two lamps...altogether less than $10. They'll
> make decent computer speakers for my 12 year old.

Nice steal. For undemanding work they aren't *that* bad.

Graham

Ron Johnson

November 15th 08, 11:19 AM

Eeyore wrote:
> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>
> There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
>
> The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
>
> I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> fixed it.
>
> But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
>
> I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>
> In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
> coil rub.
>

Some Machs and RCFs use a 24 volt projector lamp. I`ve seen these become
intermittent - they check fine with a meter, but introduce terrible
distortion and crackling under pressure - it sounds just like the driver
diaphragm breaking up. They also easily break if the cabinet is roughly
handled.

Ron

George's Pro Sound Company

November 15th 08, 12:54 PM

"Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Eeyore wrote:
>> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
>> out under conditions of 'overdrive'.

here is a novel thought
DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
simple and effective

it's what I do
the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp larger than the
speakers rateing
George
George

Eeyore

November 15th 08, 01:18 PM

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>
> > This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> > out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >
> > There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
> >
> > The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
> >
> > I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> > thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> > checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> > fixed it.
> >
> > But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
> >
> > I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> > occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> > weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> > it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> > wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>
> I think it's unlikely, because any fracture causes a local hotspot, which
> rapidly leads to failure. I'd look at the socket instead! :)

I will double check that. Thanks for the tip.

> We've probably
> all seen strange tin-lead phenomena on lightbulb button contacts. The
> constant thermal cycling, the pressure, the dissimilar metals...

Interesting point.

Graham

Eeyore

November 15th 08, 01:21 PM

Ron Johnson wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> > out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >
> > There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
> >
> > The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
> >
> > I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> > thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> > checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> > fixed it.
> >
> > But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
> >
> > I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> > occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> > weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> > it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> > wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
> >
> > In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
> > coil rub.
>
> Some Machs and RCFs use a 24 volt projector lamp.

24V truck lamp here.

> I`ve seen these become
> intermittent - they check fine with a meter, but introduce terrible
> distortion and crackling under pressure - it sounds just like the driver
> diaphragm breaking up.

That's EXACTLY what I'm getting. Thanks for the effective conformation.

> They also easily break if the cabinet is roughly handled.

Well it has been but the bulb's nicely cushioned.

Graham

Eeyore

November 15th 08, 01:26 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> "Ron Johnson" > wrote
> > Eeyore wrote:
> >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> >> out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>
> here is a novel thought
> DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
> simple and effective
>
> it's what I do
> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp larger than the
> speakers rateing

The amps aren't but a blast of HF feedback will do it since it will whistle
through the HF filter. I am as it happens going to fit an 80W P-Audio driver
in the damn second JBL JRX112M that's blown its puny HF driver for the second
time, despite improving JBL's original ineffective bulb protection which was
100% ineffective. Jesus that design is CRAP. 1st order crossover !

Bear in mind these are the 15 year old monitors made of MDF and have been very
little trouble generally over the years.

Graham

George's Pro Sound Company

November 15th 08, 06:36 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:44:46 +0000, Eeyore
> >wrote:
>
>>This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
>>out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>>
>>There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
>>
>>The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
>>
>>I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
>>thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
>>checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
>>fixed it.
>>
>>But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
>>
>>I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
>>occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
>>weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
>>it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
>>wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>>
>>In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
>>coil rub.
>>
>>Graham
>
> Been using some Wharfedale stage gear for a year or so. The mains are
> all protected by lamps. I've replaced two in a year but not
> experienced a distorted HF. You'll find problems in the xover or drive
> I would assume rather than the lamp.

or maybe it's time to upgrade from that MI grade junk your using
George

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 04:25 AM

Meat Plow wrote:

> "George's Pro Sound Company"wrote:
> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
> >> Eeyore wrote:
> >>
> >>>This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils burning
> >>>out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >>>
> >>>There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this method.
> >>>
> >>>The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
> >>>
> >>>I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah, I
> >>>thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
> >>>checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
> >>>fixed it.
> >>>
> >>>But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
> >>>
> >>>I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> >>>occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
> >>>weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would heat
> >>>it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
> >>>wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
> >>>
> >>>In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
> >>>coil rub.
> >>
> >> Been using some Wharfedale stage gear for a year or so. The mains are
> >> all protected by lamps. I've replaced two in a year but not
> >> experienced a distorted HF. You'll find problems in the xover or drive
> >> I would assume rather than the lamp.
> >
> >or maybe it's time to upgrade from that MI grade junk your using
> >George
>
> Who, me?

From what I've heard they're well considered and in the IAG group now.
http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/

The Chang brothers don't believe in messing about AIUI.
http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/executive_summary.php

Graham

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 09:37 AM

In article >,
George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:

> "Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Eeyore wrote:
> >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
> >> burning out under conditions of 'overdrive'.

> here is a novel thought
> DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
> simple and effective

Easily said - but not so easy to do when setting up this sort of
equipment. Let alone when that equipment is being used by all sorts.

> it's what I do
> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp larger than the
> speakers rateing

Strangely that's not always so.

The best solution would be a decent limiter on the amp input - but these
cost if it's not going to sound horrid when it operates. A bulb is a very
cheap solution to help protect the speakers.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 10:01 AM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
>
>> "Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Eeyore wrote:
>> >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
>> >> burning out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>
>> here is a novel thought
>> DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
>> simple and effective
>
> Easily said - but not so easy to do when setting up this sort of
> equipment. Let alone when that equipment is being used by all sorts.
>
>> it's what I do
>> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp larger than the
>> speakers rateing
>
> Strangely that's not always so.
>
> The best solution would be a decent limiter on the amp input - but these
> cost if it's not going to sound horrid when it operates. A bulb is a very
> cheap solution to help protect the speakers.
>
No lamps in my meyers.
setting up a system that both sounds good and stays within the limits of the
equipment used is NOT hard, it simply requires one know what they are doing.
a amp equal to the speaker rms rateing will never burn out the speaker
unless the amp is clipped hard and long
it will never exceed the excursion of the speaker unless someone fires a gun
a inch from a mic at foolish gains
set your system up properly and you have no need for these foolish lamps.
create cheap MI gear that is used improperly and you need to limit the abuse
idiots can administer, to save on the warrentte costs
I have never heard a speaker with lamps(I've owned plenty) sound as good as
a speaker with out lamps

again no lamps in my meyers, I do have alimiter but it is set well above
any threshold I pass music at.
why buy a 1000 watt amp then limit it to 300 watts, why not just buy a 300
watt amp?
George

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 10:03 AM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:25:13 +0000, Eeyore
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Meat Plow wrote:
>>
>>> "George's Pro Sound Company"wrote:
>>> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
>>> >> Eeyore wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
>>> >>>burning
>>> >>>out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this
>>> >>>method.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals. Ah,
>>> >>>I
>>> >>>thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced them,
>>> >>>checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd probably
>>> >>>fixed it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
>>> >>>occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have a
>>> >>>weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would
>>> >>>heat
>>> >>>it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but I
>>> >>>wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not voice
>>> >>>coil rub.
>>> >>
>>> >> Been using some Wharfedale stage gear for a year or so. The mains are
>>> >> all protected by lamps. I've replaced two in a year but not
>>> >> experienced a distorted HF. You'll find problems in the xover or
>>> >> drive
>>> >> I would assume rather than the lamp.
>>> >
>>> >or maybe it's time to upgrade from that MI grade junk your using
>>> >George
>>>
>>> Who, me?
>>
>>From what I've heard they're well considered and in the IAG group now.
>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/
>>
>>The Chang brothers don't believe in messing about AIUI.
>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/executive_summary.php
>>
>>Graham
>>
>>
>
> We've been using the Warfe pro-audio stuff for a year and have had few
> problems. One 2500 watt power amp we used for our 18" subs got sent
> back because it was too sensitive and would fault when pushed hard at
> 4 ohms. The replacement did not exhibit this behavior under the exact
> conditions. I've replaced a couple lamp protectors elsewhere.
>
> I wouldn't call Wharfedale junk. It's usable, sounds good and reliable
> and a lot less expensive than other name brands.

I consider W home stereo grade gear, not suitable for Pro Live Sound, below
behringer

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 10:33 AM

In article >,
George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Eeyore wrote:
> >> >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
> >> >> burning out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >
> >> here is a novel thought
> >> DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
> >> simple and effective
> >
> > Easily said - but not so easy to do when setting up this sort of
> > equipment. Let alone when that equipment is being used by all sorts.
> >
> >> it's what I do
> >> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp larger than the
> >> speakers rateing
> >
> > Strangely that's not always so.
> >
> > The best solution would be a decent limiter on the amp input - but
> > these cost if it's not going to sound horrid when it operates. A bulb
> > is a very cheap solution to help protect the speakers.
> >
> No lamps in my meyers. setting up a system that both sounds good and
> stays within the limits of the equipment used is NOT hard, it simply
> requires one know what they are doing.

These days always having 'someone who knows what they're doing' is rare.
And even less likely with a small band starting out. So you need to make
equipment as idiot proof as possible.

> a amp equal to the speaker rms
> rateing will never burn out the speaker unless the amp is clipped hard
> and long it will never exceed the excursion of the speaker unless
> someone fires a gun a inch from a mic at foolish gains set your system
> up properly and you have no need for these foolish lamps.

Either the amp cannot produce enough wally to damage the speakers or it
can - so the gunshot thing is rubbish. But no speaker is designed to
handle DC for long - which is what you can get from a grossly overloaded
amp. To be certain that DC couldn't wreck the speakers would require a
*much* smaller amp than would otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an
amp which can't pass DC.

> create cheap
> MI gear that is used improperly and you need to limit the abuse idiots
> can administer, to save on the warrentte costs I have never heard a
> speaker with lamps(I've owned plenty) sound as good as a speaker with
> out lamps

Correctly designed the lamp should have little effect on the sound as its
cold resistance will be very low. Only when it starts to 'protect' will
the resistance increase.

> again no lamps in my meyers, I do have alimiter but it is set well
> above any threshold I pass music at. why buy a 1000 watt amp then limit
> it to 300 watts, why not just buy a 300 watt amp?

Why are you using a limiter at all, then?

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 11:23 AM

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
> > "Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
> > > Eeyore wrote:
> >
> > >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
> > >> burning out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>
> > here is a novel thought
> > DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
> > simple and effective
>
> Easily said - but not so easy to do when setting up this sort of
> equipment. Let alone when that equipment is being used by all sorts.

And it is. Another new house engineer recently for example.

> > it's what I do the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp
> larger than the
> > speakers rateing
>
> Strangely that's not always so.

Well this is where it gets slightly complicated.

> The best solution would be a decent limiter on the amp input - but these
> cost if it's not going to sound horrid when it operates. A bulb is a very
> cheap solution to help protect the speakers.

But a simple level limiter still won't stop the amp delivering full power say
@ 8kHz. Tweeters aren't meant to see that. It would have to be a frequency
sensitive limiter matched to the crossover. Which has given me a product idea
of course.

Graham

William Sommerwerck

November 16th 08, 11:38 AM

> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
> larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]

Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
what distortion sounds like...

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 11:47 AM

>> No lamps in my meyers. setting up a system that both sounds good and
>> stays within the limits of the equipment used is NOT hard, it simply
>> requires one know what they are doing.
>
> These days always having 'someone who knows what they're doing' is rare.
> And even less likely with a small band starting out. So you need to make
> equipment as idiot proof as possible.
>
>> a amp equal to the speaker rms
>> rateing will never burn out the speaker unless the amp is clipped hard
>> and long it will never exceed the excursion of the speaker unless
>> someone fires a gun a inch from a mic at foolish gains set your system
>> up properly and you have no need for these foolish lamps.
>
> Either the amp cannot produce enough wally to damage the speakers or it
> can - so the gunshot thing is rubbish.

Bull****
excursion aand burning out are completely diffrent
a amp "can" put out several times it's rated power for a instant, enough to
throw a cone. been there already

But no speaker is designed to
> handle DC for long - which is what you can get from a grossly overloaded
> amp. To be certain that DC couldn't wreck the speakers would require a
> *much* smaller amp than would otherwise make sense.

the lamp does nothing twards DC protection. I have caps on my tweeters that
do prevent DC

Or, of course, use an
> amp which can't pass DC.

except when they fail.
>
>> create cheap
>> MI gear that is used improperly and you need to limit the abuse idiots
>> can administer, to save on the warrentte costs I have never heard a
>> speaker with lamps(I've owned plenty) sound as good as a speaker with
>> out lamps
>
> Correctly designed the lamp should have little effect on the sound as its
> cold resistance will be very low. Only when it starts to 'protect' will
> the resistance increase.

the designers activate these lamps at such low power levels they are almost
constantly lit
>
>> again no lamps in my meyers, I do have alimiter but it is set well
>> above any threshold I pass music at. why buy a 1000 watt amp then limit
>> it to 300 watts, why not just buy a 300 watt amp?
>
> Why are you using a limiter at all, then?

why not properly use a properly sized amp, why would you limit within the
range that your produceing in?
if it ain't loud enough, deploy more gear.
I have limiters for dumb ****s
true story from 1993 at one of my first shows with a guest engineer
like the guy who's talkback mic was draped across my console when he grabbed
it the cable spun the trim pot for the kick drum to max
next hit of the drum I had 7 18 inch speaker cones sitting in the feild
next day I got a limiter
more true lifes adventures

for when the "talent" throws a wireless mic against the wall, but the
limiter didn't stop Marlyn Manson from trashing a Midas console on me with a
cast base mic stand though

george

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 11:49 AM

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 11:53 AM

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>> larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>
> Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
> where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
> what distortion sounds like...

OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
distortion as clean signal
only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you burn
out a speaker

clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage speakers,
its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat with
a spotlessly clean signal as well
>
>

William Sommerwerck

November 16th 08, 12:02 PM

"George's Pro Sound Company" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
> ...

>>> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>> larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]

>> Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
>> where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
>> what distortion sounds like...

> OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
> distortion as clean signal only when you exceed the heat dissipating
ability
> of the motor do you burn out a speaker

Although what you say is true in terms of physics (the speaker's excursion
limits do not have a necessary relationship with its heat-dissipating
capability), in practice, audible distortion is a warning that you should
turn down the volume. William Michael Watson Dayton-Wright told me horror
stories of how he could not design a speaker with sufficient power-handling
capability to keep "deaf" listeners from overdriving and damaging it.

> clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
> speakers, it[']s overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
> distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
> with a spotlessly clean signal as well

The distortion I was talking about was the sort that comes from pushing it
into its excursion limits.

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 12:07 PM

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
> "George's Pro Sound Company" > wrote in message
> m...
>>
>> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>
>>>> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>>> larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>
>>> Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
>>> level
>>> where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
>>> what distortion sounds like...
>
>> OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
>> distortion as clean signal only when you exceed the heat dissipating
> ability
>> of the motor do you burn out a speaker
>
> Although what you say is true in terms of physics (the speaker's excursion
> limits do not have a necessary relationship with its heat-dissipating
> capability), in practice, audible distortion is a warning that you should
> turn down the volume. William Michael Watson Dayton-Wright told me horror
> stories of how he could not design a speaker with sufficient
> power-handling
> capability to keep "deaf" listeners from overdriving and damaging it.
>
>
>> clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
>> speakers, it[']s overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
>> distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
>> with a spotlessly clean signal as well
>
> The distortion I was talking about was the sort that comes from pushing it
> into its excursion limits.

I grant you all your points as valid, and bottoming(or farting) a woofer is
truely a horid sound
George
>
>

William Sommerwerck

November 16th 08, 12:19 PM

> I grant you all your points as valid, and bottoming (or farting)
> a woofer is truely a horid sound.

Agreed. I've never heard it called that, but it's an apt description.

What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast, and have been
up since 2AM.)

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 01:11 PM

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>> I grant you all your points as valid, and bottoming (or farting)
>> a woofer is truely a horid sound.
>
> Agreed. I've never heard it called that, but it's an apt description.
>
> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast, and have
> been
> up since 2AM.)

went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down early(8pm)
some days your just not tired at 4 am
G
>
>

William Sommerwerck

November 16th 08, 01:30 PM

>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
>> and have been up since 2AM.)

> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am

As in...

http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 01:32 PM

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
>>> and have been up since 2AM.)
>
>> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
>> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
>
> As in...
>
> http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
>
Same brewery but this IPA
http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm

Tony[_11_]

November 16th 08, 01:49 PM

I like to protect gear from whatever might come, so I like lamps and polyswiches. I would
be almost as happy with a frequency-selective limiter that could independently account for
the thermal and displacement limits of the tweeter, mid and woofer (with appropriately
different time constants - an even greater challenge), but the reality is that a lamp in
the tweeter circuit handles 80% of abuse, so it's cheap insurance.

But an interesting twist is that with the simple 2nd order HPFs I have been trying (with a
very high Fc, eg 8 kHz, to flatten CD horn response and match sensitivities), a lamp or
polyswitch in the INPUT to the crossover has the nice benefit of also seeing more MF, and
so potentially account for both thermal and displacement limitations. Admittedly the time
constants cannot be independent as would really be required, but it's still better than
having the lamp in the crossover output circuit, and a LOT safer for the amp, which
becomes UNLOADED when the protection operates, instead of shorted.

Tony

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 02:34 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> But no speaker is designed to
> handle DC for long - which is what you can get from a grossly overloaded
> amp. To be certain that DC couldn't wreck the speakers would require a
> *much* smaller amp than would otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an
> amp which can't pass DC.
>

Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:34 PM

"Eeysore = incorrigible pommy ****wit TROLL "

>> ** QUIT the ****ing CROSS POSTING
>>
>> ARSEHOLE !!!!
>>
>> >The cross-posting was to relevant groups you clown.
>>
>> ** Those other NGs are NOT compatible with this one.
>
> Yes they are.

** 100% WRONG.

Your autism is showing - big time.

CROSSPOSTING IS AN ABOMINATION !!

Stevenson is the BIGGEST TROLL on Usenet

..... Phil

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:34 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:34 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:35 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:35 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:35 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:36 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:36 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:37 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:37 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:37 PM

Phil Allison

November 16th 08, 02:39 PM

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 03:23 PM

In article >,
liquidator > wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
> > can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
> > wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
> > otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
> >

> Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 03:39 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> liquidator > wrote:
>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
>> > can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
>> > wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
>> > otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
>> >
>
>> Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>
> Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
> results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
>
and to what point is this abuse of equipment warrented?
should I trow my cabinets off tall building to prove that they will be
destroyed?
this is the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup
we do not drive ANY amps into heavy clipping, for any reason what-so-ever
George

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 03:44 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>>
>>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
>>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
>>what distortion sounds like...
>
>
> OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
> distortion as clean signal
> only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you burn
> out a speaker
>
> clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage speakers,
> its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
> distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat with
> a spotlessly clean signal as well
>
>>
>
>
Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.

Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
than said amp.

I'll say no more.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 03:50 PM

Michael A. Terrell

November 16th 08, 04:23 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>
> this is the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup

No, it isn't. You are cross posting to these groups:

news:rec.audio.tech
news:alt.audio.pro.live-sound
news:sci.electronics.repair

--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 05:06 PM

In article >,
George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, liquidator
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what
> >> > you can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC
> >> > couldn't wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than
> >> > would otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't
> >> > pass DC.
> >> >
> >
> >> Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> >
> > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
> > the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> >
> and to what point is this abuse of equipment warrented? should I trow my
> cabinets off tall building to prove that they will be destroyed? this is
> the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup we do not drive ANY amps into heavy
> clipping, for any reason what-so-ever George

Err, then why are you crossposting to other groups?

However doesn't 'your' group get read by equipment hirers etc?

And to suggest no pro equipment ever gets abused by pros is pie in the
sky...

--
*To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated, but not be able to say it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 05:14 PM

In article >,
George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
> > Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
> > far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the
> > speaker coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated
> > higher than said amp.
> >
> > I'll say no more.

> you don't have to you already stated it was the HEAT that killed the
> speaker the distortion was just a means to generate the heat put a 100%
> distored signal from a 1 watt amp into a 600 watt woofer and you will
> not live long enough to see it burn out. its NOT the distortion, it's
> the HEAT Distortion is simply one way to obtain heat, so is a blow torch
> and so is a clean signal with too many watts behind it

So a 1 watt power amp and 600 watt speakers is your formula to prevent
speaker damage under all conditions?
You must have very large arms.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 05:29 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> liquidator > wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
> > > can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
> > > wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
> > > otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
> > >
>
> > Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>
> Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
> results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
>

You would have flunked electronics 101.

Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.

BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the last
40+ years.

Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot more
than you.

Go learn enough to argue then come back..

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 05:43 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>> liquidator > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>> But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
>>>>can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
>>>>wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
>>>>otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
>>>>
>>
>>>Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>
>>Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
>>results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
>>
>
>
> You would have flunked electronics 101.
>
> Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
>
> BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the last
> 40+ years.
>
> Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot more
> than you.
>
> Go learn enough to argue then come back..
>
>
Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 05:48 PM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>
> > "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
> >>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
> >>
> >>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
level
> >>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
> >>what distortion sounds like...
> >
> >
> > OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
> > distortion as clean signal
> > only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you
burn
> > out a speaker
> >
> > clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
speakers,
> > its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
> > distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
with
> > a spotlessly clean signal as well
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.
>
> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
> far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
> coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
> than said amp.

Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.

George doesn't always word things the best way, but he knows a lot.

Speakers are rated for average power, over time.

Look at the area under a square wave- it is a lot larger than the area under
a sine wave. What that means is more power for a longer time. What is
happening is the AMOUNT of power is being increased to a speaker for a
longer TIME.

Plain and simple- that is more power. It is the amout of power over time
that kills the speaker...it can only shed heat so fast, put power in faster
than that it will burn up.

Simple..just use a bigger amp...and drive it to peak, you can blow the
speaker quickly.

Use a smaller amp, and drive it to its full power for longer, and the
speaker will blow, assuming the amp is big enough to put out that much
average power.
Either way- it is power that is the culprit. The amount of energy being put
into the speaker...put it in faster than the speaker can sink it, you will
have thermal failure.

It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it want to
insist.

Make the amp small enough, the speaker can handle any waveform. Make the amp
big enough and the speaker will fail instantly with any input at all...then
there are a million scenarios in between.

I disagreee with George, I use big amps and don't blow speaker, conversely
people are blowing their 100 watt speakers with "50 watt" amplifiers.

Take a look at an EV speaker rating...xxx watss with pink noise for xxx
hours.

Change the signal, the speaker's rating changes. Incraes the time, the
speaker's rating changes.

Square waves or severe clipping is more power for a longer time. That is all
it is.

Not DC, not any big mystery, it's a measurable phenomenon.

I do agree with George that sizing amps and sopeakers reduces chance for
failure. But many touring companies use big amps for horns also, larger amps
tend to hold their resale better, from a business standpoint make more sense
to me.

Here's a semi pro example-

Loot at the price difference between a Behringer 2500 and a 1500. Not
much...but come resale time you will do a lot better with the 2500..

Business is business, I buy bigger amps. your mileage may vary.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 05:50 PM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>In article >,
> >> liquidator > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>> But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
> >>>>can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
> >>>>wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
> >>>>otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> >>
> >>Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
> >>results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> >>
> >
> >
> > You would have flunked electronics 101.
> >
> > Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> > ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
> >
> > BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the
last
> > 40+ years.
> >
> > Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot
more
> > than you.
> >
> > Go learn enough to argue then come back..
> >
> >
> Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>

Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said was
wrong?

No where- simply because you don't know enough.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 05:58 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, liquidator
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what
> > >> > you can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC
> > >> > couldn't wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than
> > >> > would otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't
> > >> > pass DC.
> > >> >
> > >
> > >> Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> > >
> > > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
> > > the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> > >
> > and to what point is this abuse of equipment warrented? should I trow my
> > cabinets off tall building to prove that they will be destroyed? this is
> > the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup we do not drive ANY amps into heavy
> > clipping, for any reason what-so-ever George
>
> Err, then why are you crossposting to other groups?
>
> However doesn't 'your' group get read by equipment hirers etc?
>
> And to suggest no pro equipment ever gets abused by pros is pie in the
> sky...
>
Hey, even Pros get abused by other Pros...

Dave we've gooten off on the wrong foot, but what happens is Eeyore starts
these damn crossposts.

He has been asked a number of times to stop.

He's a nice fellow but he keeps staring into space and mumbling
"crossposting is good".

What it does is throw groups of people together who don't know each
other...it ALWAYS wstarts fights .PERIOD.

I wish Graham (Eeyore) would stops as he's been asked to- but he's convinced
he's right, and no amount of logic is gonna change that..

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 05:59 PM

In article >,
liquidator > wrote:
> > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
> > the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> >

> You would have flunked electronics 101.

> Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.

> BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the
> last 40+ years.

> Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot
> more than you.

Pot, kettle.

HTH.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 06:01 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Jamie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>liquidator wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article >,
>>>> liquidator > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
>>>>>>can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
>>>>>>wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
>>>>>>otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>>>
>>>>Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
>>>>results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You would have flunked electronics 101.
>>>
>>>Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
>>>ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
>>>
>>>BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the
>
> last
>
>>>40+ years.
>>>
>>>Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot
>
> more
>
>>>than you.
>>>
>>>Go learn enough to argue then come back..
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>>
>
>
>
> Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said was
> wrong?
>
> No where- simply because you don't know enough.
>
>
Boy!, you're way out of your league..

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 06:03 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Jamie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>>>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>>>>
>>>>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
>
> level
>
>>>>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
>>>>what distortion sounds like...
>>>
>>>
>>>OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
>>>distortion as clean signal
>>>only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you
>
> burn
>
>>>out a speaker
>>>
>>>clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
>
> speakers,
>
>>>its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
>>>distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
>
> with
>
>>>a spotlessly clean signal as well
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.
>>
>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>than said amp.
>
>
>
> Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>
> George doesn't always word things the best way, but he knows a lot.
>
> Speakers are rated for average power, over time.
>
> Look at the area under a square wave- it is a lot larger than the area under
> a sine wave. What that means is more power for a longer time. What is
> happening is the AMOUNT of power is being increased to a speaker for a
> longer TIME.
>
> Plain and simple- that is more power. It is the amout of power over time
> that kills the speaker...it can only shed heat so fast, put power in faster
> than that it will burn up.
>
> Simple..just use a bigger amp...and drive it to peak, you can blow the
> speaker quickly.
>
> Use a smaller amp, and drive it to its full power for longer, and the
> speaker will blow, assuming the amp is big enough to put out that much
> average power.
> Either way- it is power that is the culprit. The amount of energy being put
> into the speaker...put it in faster than the speaker can sink it, you will
> have thermal failure.
>
> It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it want to
> insist.
>
> Make the amp small enough, the speaker can handle any waveform. Make the amp
> big enough and the speaker will fail instantly with any input at all...then
> there are a million scenarios in between.
>
> I disagreee with George, I use big amps and don't blow speaker, conversely
> people are blowing their 100 watt speakers with "50 watt" amplifiers.
>
> Take a look at an EV speaker rating...xxx watss with pink noise for xxx
> hours.
>
> Change the signal, the speaker's rating changes. Incraes the time, the
> speaker's rating changes.
>
> Square waves or severe clipping is more power for a longer time. That is all
> it is.
>
> Not DC, not any big mystery, it's a measurable phenomenon.
>
> I do agree with George that sizing amps and sopeakers reduces chance for
> failure. But many touring companies use big amps for horns also, larger amps
> tend to hold their resale better, from a business standpoint make more sense
> to me.
>
> Here's a semi pro example-
>
> Loot at the price difference between a Behringer 2500 and a 1500. Not
> much...but come resale time you will do a lot better with the 2500..
>
> Business is business, I buy bigger amps. your mileage may vary.
>
>
What ever you do think you know as fact, must of come at a great expense
of destroying a lot of electronics.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Dave Plowman (News)

November 16th 08, 06:33 PM

In article >,
liquidator > wrote:
> It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it
> want to insist.

Drive an amp hard enough and that's what you effectively get, as far as
the speaker is concerned. Try taking your head out of your arse and use
that scope.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 07:27 PM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Jamie" > wrote in
message
> > ...
> >
> >>liquidator wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>In article >,
> >>>> liquidator > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
> >>>>>>can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC
couldn't
> >>>>>>wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
> >>>>>>otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> >>>>
> >>>>Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
the
> >>>>results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>You would have flunked electronics 101.
> >>>
> >>>Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled
years
> >>>ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
> >>>
> >>>BTW have driben amps to clipping on the bench hundreds of times in the
> >
> > last
> >
> >>>40+ years.
> >>>
> >>>Your problem is you are trying to talk down to somebody who knows a lot
> >
> > more
> >
> >>>than you.
> >>>
> >>>Go learn enough to argue then come back..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said
was
> > wrong?
> >
> > No where- simply because you don't know enough.
> >
> >
> Boy!, you're way out of your league..
>

You are right of course, I outgrew Little League decades ago.

Later, Junior.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 07:30 PM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Jamie" > wrote in
message
> > ...
> >
> >>George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
> >>>>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
> >>>>
> >>>>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
> >
> > level
> >
> >>>>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no
idea
> >>>>what distortion sounds like...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to
play
> >>>distortion as clean signal
> >>>only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you
> >
> > burn
> >
> >>>out a speaker
> >>>
> >>>clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
> >
> > speakers,
> >
> >>>its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
> >>>distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
> >
> > with
> >
> >>>a spotlessly clean signal as well
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.
> >>
> >> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
> >>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
> >>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
> >>than said amp.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
> >
> > George doesn't always word things the best way, but he knows a lot.
> >
> > Speakers are rated for average power, over time.
> >
> > Look at the area under a square wave- it is a lot larger than the area
under
> > a sine wave. What that means is more power for a longer time. What is
> > happening is the AMOUNT of power is being increased to a speaker for a
> > longer TIME.
> >
> > Plain and simple- that is more power. It is the amout of power over time
> > that kills the speaker...it can only shed heat so fast, put power in
faster
> > than that it will burn up.
> >
> > Simple..just use a bigger amp...and drive it to peak, you can blow the
> > speaker quickly.
> >
> > Use a smaller amp, and drive it to its full power for longer, and the
> > speaker will blow, assuming the amp is big enough to put out that much
> > average power.
> > Either way- it is power that is the culprit. The amount of energy being
put
> > into the speaker...put it in faster than the speaker can sink it, you
will
> > have thermal failure.
> >
> > It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it
want to
> > insist.
> >
> > Make the amp small enough, the speaker can handle any waveform. Make the
amp
> > big enough and the speaker will fail instantly with any input at
all...then
> > there are a million scenarios in between.
> >
> > I disagreee with George, I use big amps and don't blow speaker,
conversely
> > people are blowing their 100 watt speakers with "50 watt" amplifiers.
> >
> > Take a look at an EV speaker rating...xxx watss with pink noise for xxx
> > hours.
> >
> > Change the signal, the speaker's rating changes. Incraes the time, the
> > speaker's rating changes.
> >
> > Square waves or severe clipping is more power for a longer time. That is
all
> > it is.
> >
> > Not DC, not any big mystery, it's a measurable phenomenon.
> >
> > I do agree with George that sizing amps and sopeakers reduces chance for
> > failure. But many touring companies use big amps for horns also, larger
amps
> > tend to hold their resale better, from a business standpoint make more
sense
> > to me.
> >
> > Here's a semi pro example-
> >
> > Loot at the price difference between a Behringer 2500 and a 1500. Not
> > much...but come resale time you will do a lot better with the 2500..
> >
> > Business is business, I buy bigger amps. your mileage may vary.
> >
> >
> What ever you do think you know as fact, must of come at a great expense
> of destroying a lot of electronics.
>

Again showing your gross ignorance.
As a working pro I'm sure I paid more in taxes than you earned.

Welcome to the killfiles as the only total loss I've seen today.

Dont' bother replying, but your juvenile need to will make you do it anyway.

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:35 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> > > George's Pro Sound Company > wrote:
> > >> "Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
> > >> > Eeyore wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >> This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
> > >> >> burning out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> > >
> > >> here is a novel thought
> > >> DON"T OVERDRIVE THEM
> > >> simple and effective
> > >
> > > Easily said - but not so easy to do when setting up this sort of
> > > equipment. Let alone when that equipment is being used by all sorts.
> > >
> > >> it's what I do the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a amp
> larger than the
> > >> speakers rateing

Doesn't stop the amp having greater than the HF driver's rating !

> > > Strangely that's not always so.
> > >
> > > The best solution would be a decent limiter on the amp input - but
> > > these cost if it's not going to sound horrid when it operates. A bulb
> > > is a very cheap solution to help protect the speakers.
> > >
> > No lamps in my meyers. setting up a system that both sounds good and
> > stays within the limits of the equipment used is NOT hard, it simply
> > requires one know what they are doing.
>
> These days always having 'someone who knows what they're doing' is rare.
> And even less likely with a small band starting out. So you need to make
> equipment as idiot proof as possible.
>
> > a amp equal to the speaker rms
> > rateing will never burn out the speaker unless the amp is clipped hard
> > and long it will never exceed the excursion of the speaker unless
> > someone fires a gun a inch from a mic at foolish gains set your system
> > up properly and you have no need for these foolish lamps.
>
> Either the amp cannot produce enough wally to damage the speakers or it
> can - so the gunshot thing is rubbish. But no speaker is designed to
> handle DC for long - which is what you can get from a grossly overloaded
> amp. To be certain that DC couldn't wreck the speakers would require a
> *much* smaller amp than would otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an
> amp which can't pass DC.

Or ensure the amp you have is fitted with DC 'crowbar' protection such as I
design in.. Or output relays but these can oxidise their contacts degrading the
sound, and if they don't have enough clearance will arc-over on a DC fault.

> > create cheap
> > MI gear that is used improperly and you need to limit the abuse idiots
> > can administer, to save on the warrentte costs I have never heard a
> > speaker with lamps(I've owned plenty) sound as good as a speaker with
> > out lamps
>
> Correctly designed the lamp should have little effect on the sound as its
> cold resistance will be very low. Only when it starts to 'protect' will
> the resistance increase.
>
> > again no lamps in my meyers, I do have alimiter but it is set well
> > above any threshold I pass music at. why buy a 1000 watt amp then limit
> > it to 300 watts, why not just buy a 300 watt amp?
>
> Why are you using a limiter at all, then?

I think you summed it up pretty well there Dave.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:36 PM

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> > the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
> > larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>
> Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
> where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
> what distortion sounds like...

Exceed X max (not difficult with ported cabs) and you can do a lot of damage
to the LF driver too.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:40 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> a amp "can" put out several times it's rated power for a instant, enough to
> throw a cone. been there already

UTTER and complete rubbish. If you're referring to the difference between an rms
and peak voltage or power, that's already taken into account in the speaker's
rating. Yes, you can get a bit more out of an amp on toneburst but rarely much
over 1-2dB at the very most. Certainly not for long enough to do any damage.

You're straying into tech territory here George that you don't understand. Stick
to rigging and mixing.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:42 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
>
> >> the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
> >> larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
> >
> > Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a level
> > where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no idea
> > what distortion sounds like...
>
> OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
> distortion as clean signal
> only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you burn
> out a speaker

Generally. But not exclusively by far.

Exceeding X max can trash an LF or HF driver without as much as even a
discoloured voice coil. And there are many easy ways to do it.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:44 PM

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> in practice, audible distortion is a warning that you should
> turn down the volume.

Couldn't agree more.

> The distortion I was talking about was the sort that comes from pushing it
> into its excursion limits.

(X max)

Precisely. I have a lovely pair of Altec diaphragms in my "rogue's gallery" that
demonstrates this perfectly. The voice coils meaure 100% OK and look OK.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:47 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> bottoming(or farting) a woofer is truely a horid sound

That's technically exceeding X max (Thiele and Small parameters). Easy to do
with ported cabs and no suitable high order HPF.

Mine (my client's) is 24dB/octave @ 35Hz.

Graham

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 08:49 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:03:47 -0500, "George's Pro Sound Company"
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:25:13 +0000, Eeyore
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Meat Plow wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "George's Pro Sound Company"wrote:
> >>>> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
> >>>> >> Eeyore wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>>This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
> >>>> >>>burning
> >>>> >>>out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this
> >>>> >>>method.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals.
Ah,
> >>>> >>>I
> >>>> >>>thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced
them,
> >>>> >>>checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd
probably
> >>>> >>>fixed it.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
> >>>> >>>occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have
a
> >>>> >>>weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would
> >>>> >>>heat
> >>>> >>>it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough
but I
> >>>> >>>wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not
voice
> >>>> >>>coil rub.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Been using some Wharfedale stage gear for a year or so. The mains
are
> >>>> >> all protected by lamps. I've replaced two in a year but not
> >>>> >> experienced a distorted HF. You'll find problems in the xover or
> >>>> >> drive
> >>>> >> I would assume rather than the lamp.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >or maybe it's time to upgrade from that MI grade junk your using
> >>>> >George
> >>>>
> >>>> Who, me?
> >>>
> >>>From what I've heard they're well considered and in the IAG group now.
> >>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/
> >>>
> >>>The Chang brothers don't believe in messing about AIUI.
> >>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/executive_summary.php
> >>>
> >>>Graham
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> We've been using the Warfe pro-audio stuff for a year and have had few
> >> problems. One 2500 watt power amp we used for our 18" subs got sent
> >> back because it was too sensitive and would fault when pushed hard at
> >> 4 ohms. The replacement did not exhibit this behavior under the exact
> >> conditions. I've replaced a couple lamp protectors elsewhere.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't call Wharfedale junk. It's usable, sounds good and reliable
> >> and a lot less expensive than other name brands.
> >
> >I consider W home stereo grade gear, not suitable for Pro Live Sound,
below
> >behringer
> >
>
> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.
>
> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
> do use or repair it i have no opinion.

Behringer is like any company...some usable for semi pro, some absolute
garbage.

Thee odd thing is most negative comments about Behringer do NOT come from
users as you say.

Almost all negative posts about Behringer are from users of other brands.

It's no worse than any other cheap stuff, better sometimes. I don't us it,
but plenty of weekend warrriors do.

If Behringer was a s bad as people try to say, they would be out of
business.

Conclusion- many aof the negative posts are bull.

I don't use Behringer, or Mackie, or any of that kinda stuff. But I am not
gonna insist everybody drive the same brand of car I do.

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 08:59 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> I've replaced a couple lamp protectors elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>> I wouldn't call Wharfedale junk. It's usable, sounds good and reliable
> >>> and a lot less expensive than other name brands.
> >>
> >> I consider W home stereo grade gear, not suitable for Pro Live Sound,
> >> below behringer
> > Actually George, granted most of their range is typical MI stuff, some of
> > the Wharfedale pro stuff is pretty nice, consider the TwinX series, birch
> > ply cabinets and good coaxial drivers, surprisingly good sounding though
> > more expensive than most MI grade boxes, still not vastly overpriced.
>
> what I got out of this thread we were talking about crappy mdf boxes

MDF has better acoustic damping (i.e. less resonance - hence better quality
sound) than straight ply.

> with poorly designed passive crossovers aimed at the bottom feeder market
> also it must be some European quirk as I have never seen a warfedale boxin
> live sound service at any gig anywhere in the USA

Probably not promoted in the USA into the Pro market. Possibly comparable to
the better Yorkville stuff which we never see here in Europe. Seriously, some
of it's very acceptable.

Ron, was it you who mentioned the cheap Chinese NEXO 'knock-offs' ? Show George
those.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:01 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> "William Sommerwerck" > wrote
>
> >>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
> >>> and have been up since 2AM.)
> >
> >> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
> >> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
> >
> > As in...
> >
> > http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
> >
> Same brewery but this IPA
> http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm

Are you familiar with the origin of the name 'IPA' ?

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:07 PM

Tony wrote:

> I like to protect gear from whatever might come, so I like lamps and polyswiches. I would
> be almost as happy with a frequency-selective limiter that could independently account for
> the thermal and displacement limits of the tweeter, mid and woofer (with appropriately
> different time constants - an even greater challenge), but the reality is that a lamp in
> the tweeter circuit handles 80% of abuse, so it's cheap insurance.

That's how I see it too. We don't get many lamps blown but it does happen, even in the EV
QRx's (almost once a year on average).

> But an interesting twist is that with the simple 2nd order HPFs I have been trying (with a
> very high Fc, eg 8 kHz, to flatten CD horn response and match sensitivities), a lamp or
> polyswitch in the INPUT to the crossover has the nice benefit of also seeing more MF, and
> so potentially account for both thermal and displacement limitations. Admittedly the time
> constants cannot be independent as would really be required, but it's still better than
> having the lamp in the crossover output circuit, and a LOT safer for the amp, which
> becomes UNLOADED when the protection operates, instead of shorted.

Indeed it should ALWAYS be on the input side. Which is how ours are arranged. It just
disconnects the HPF.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:11 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> liquidator > wrote:
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> >
> > > But no speaker is designed to handle DC for long - which is what you
> > > can get from a grossly overloaded amp. To be certain that DC couldn't
> > > wreck the speakers would require a *much* smaller amp than would
> > > otherwise make sense. Or, of course, use an amp which can't pass DC.
>
> > Jeez...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>
> Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
> results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.

That's why I use 'clip eliminator circuits'. Did my first 18 years ago in the
1200B. Used a transconductance amp in a feedback loop (inactive until clip
sensed so no effect on normal signal).

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:14 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> put a 100% distored signal from a 1 watt amp into a 600 watt woofer and you
> will not live long enough to see it burn out.

Uh ?

A 100% distorted signal would be a square wave of 2W rating. That's not going to
bother ANY 600W rated voice coil.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:16 PM

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >
> > this is the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup
>
> No, it isn't. You are cross posting to these groups:
>
> news:rec.audio.tech
> news:alt.audio.pro.live-sound
> news:sci.electronics.repair

More correctly I was, since the original question was relevant to all.

George should have trimmed the groups for pro-sound comments only.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:17 PM

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >
> > this is the PRO LIVE SOUND newsgroup
>
> No, it isn't. You are cross posting to these groups:
>
> news:rec.audio.tech
> news:alt.audio.pro.live-sound
> news:sci.electronics.repair

In practice, I think you'll find the subject matter is still of interest in
all of these.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:18 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> And to suggest no pro equipment ever gets abused by pros is pie in the
> sky...

Many a JBL D150 went to meet its maker in the 70s. In flames quite often.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:23 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Jamie" > wrote in message
> > >
> > Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>
> Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said was
> wrong?

Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas sometimes
in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with current
practice in this area.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:26 PM

liquidator wrote:

> Dave we've gooten off on the wrong foot, but what happens is Eeyore starts
> these damn crossposts.
>
> He has been asked a number of times to stop.
>
> He's a nice fellow but he keeps staring into space and mumbling
> "crossposting is good".
>
> What it does is throw groups of people together who don't know each
> other...it ALWAYS wstarts fights .PERIOD.
>
> I wish Graham (Eeyore) would stops as he's been asked to- but he's convinced
> he's right, and no amount of logic is gonna change that..

According to the currently accepted rules of netquette, a post that is relevant
to several groups SHOULD be cross-posted. Most certainly not multiposted.

Explain how it is off-charter in rec.audio.tech or sci.electronics.repair where
a lot of audio is discussed daily. It was a repair question after all ! And
technical.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:27 PM

Jamie wrote:

> Boy!, you're way out of your league..

Typical Jamie response.

Liquidator knows his stuff 99+ odd % of the time.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:34 PM

Meat Plow wrote:

> "George's Pro Sound Company" wrote:
> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> I wouldn't call Wharfedale junk. It's usable, sounds good and reliable
> >> and a lot less expensive than other name brands.
> >
> >I consider W home stereo grade gear, not suitable for Pro Live Sound, below
> >behringer
>
> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.

He's a US (NY state AIUI) audio hire company operator.

> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
> do use or repair it I have no opinion.

Seen and heard of more Behringer gear die prematurely than any other brand that
one ought presumably to be able to take seriously.

Ron (UK) tried 2 of their big amps. Both went U/S just outside warranty.

OTOH, the venue I help out still has 2 of my Studiomaster D series amps working
day in, day out and both are 10+ yrs old. Only maintence needed, blowing out the
heatsinks and replacing a couple of scratchy gain pots. And you can replace those
pots in 15 mins compared to the over one HOUR it takes for a QSC RMX !

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:36 PM

liquidator wrote:

> Thee odd thing is most negative comments about Behringer do NOT come from
> users as you say.

I've experienced their stuff fail on one of my clients. He will NOT buy
Behringer any more. He has a BUSINESS to run that requires RELIABILITY.

Graham

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 09:45 PM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> liquidator wrote:
>
>> "Jamie" > wrote in
>> message
>> ...
>>
>>>George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>>>>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
>>
>> level
>>
>>>>>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no
>>>>>idea
>>>>>what distortion sounds like...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to play
>>>>distortion as clean signal
>>>>only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you
>>
>> burn
>>
>>>>out a speaker
>>>>
>>>>clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
>>
>> speakers,
>>
>>>>its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
>>>>distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
>>
>> with
>>
>>>>a spotlessly clean signal as well
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.
>>>
>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>than said amp.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>>
>> George doesn't always word things the best way, but he knows a lot.
>>
>> Speakers are rated for average power, over time.
>>
>> Look at the area under a square wave- it is a lot larger than the area
>> under
>> a sine wave. What that means is more power for a longer time. What is
>> happening is the AMOUNT of power is being increased to a speaker for a
>> longer TIME.
>>
>> Plain and simple- that is more power. It is the amout of power over time
>> that kills the speaker...it can only shed heat so fast, put power in
>> faster
>> than that it will burn up.
>>
>> Simple..just use a bigger amp...and drive it to peak, you can blow the
>> speaker quickly.
>>
>> Use a smaller amp, and drive it to its full power for longer, and the
>> speaker will blow, assuming the amp is big enough to put out that much
>> average power.
>> Either way- it is power that is the culprit. The amount of energy being
>> put
>> into the speaker...put it in faster than the speaker can sink it, you
>> will
>> have thermal failure.
>>
>> It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it want
>> to
>> insist.
>>
>> Make the amp small enough, the speaker can handle any waveform. Make the
>> amp
>> big enough and the speaker will fail instantly with any input at
>> all...then
>> there are a million scenarios in between.
>>
>> I disagreee with George, I use big amps and don't blow speaker,
>> conversely
>> people are blowing their 100 watt speakers with "50 watt" amplifiers.
>>
>> Take a look at an EV speaker rating...xxx watss with pink noise for xxx
>> hours.
>>
>> Change the signal, the speaker's rating changes. Incraes the time, the
>> speaker's rating changes.
>>
>> Square waves or severe clipping is more power for a longer time. That is
>> all
>> it is.
>>
>> Not DC, not any big mystery, it's a measurable phenomenon.
>>
>> I do agree with George that sizing amps and sopeakers reduces chance for
>> failure. But many touring companies use big amps for horns also, larger
>> amps
>> tend to hold their resale better, from a business standpoint make more
>> sense
>> to me.
>>
>> Here's a semi pro example-
>>
>> Loot at the price difference between a Behringer 2500 and a 1500. Not
>> much...but come resale time you will do a lot better with the 2500..
>>
>> Business is business, I buy bigger amps. your mileage may vary.
>>
>>
> What ever you do think you know as fact, must of come at a great expense
> of destroying a lot of electronics.
>
I take it you do not earn the money to pay your mortgage, put kids through
school, pay your employees , buy cars and all the rest useing speakers and
amplifiers for pro live sound work
if you did you would not be makeing such a jackass out of yourself right now
George

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:45 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote
> >
> > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see the
> > results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
>
> You would have flunked electronics 101.
>
> Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.

In the early days of DC coupled outputs, some amps still had a degree of
internal AC coupling or bypassing in the drive circuitry.

They could indeed 'drift' DC under prolonged overdrive.

Graham

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 09:49 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:03:47 -0500, "George's Pro Sound Company"
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:25:13 +0000, Eeyore
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Meat Plow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "George's Pro Sound Company"wrote:
>>>>> >"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
>>>>> >> Eeyore wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>This is a well established technique for preventing voice coils
>>>>> >>>burning
>>>>> >>>out under conditions of 'overdrive'.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>There is a stage monitor I'm having problems with that uses this
>>>>> >>>method.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>The HF sounds very distorted and almost cuts in and out.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>I looked closely inside and found some damaged push-on terminals.
>>>>> >>>Ah,
>>>>> >>>I
>>>>> >>>thought, probably a poor contact causing the probelm, replaced
>>>>> >>>them,
>>>>> >>>checked driver DC resistances etc, reassembled thinking I'd
>>>>> >>>probably
>>>>> >>>fixed it.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>But no, the low level HF and distortion continued.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>I'd checked the DC resistance of the protection bulb but later it
>>>>> >>>occurred to me that it might have 'very nearly' burnt out and have
>>>>> >>>a
>>>>> >>>weak spot that wouldn't show up on a DVM but passing signal would
>>>>> >>>heat
>>>>> >>>it and cause this trouble. I'll be able to find out soon enough but
>>>>> >>>I
>>>>> >>>wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this ?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>In the meantime I brought the HF driver home to check it's not
>>>>> >>>voice
>>>>> >>>coil rub.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Been using some Wharfedale stage gear for a year or so. The mains
>>>>> >> are
>>>>> >> all protected by lamps. I've replaced two in a year but not
>>>>> >> experienced a distorted HF. You'll find problems in the xover or
>>>>> >> drive
>>>>> >> I would assume rather than the lamp.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >or maybe it's time to upgrade from that MI grade junk your using
>>>>> >George
>>>>>
>>>>> Who, me?
>>>>
>>>>From what I've heard they're well considered and in the IAG group now.
>>>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/
>>>>
>>>>The Chang brothers don't believe in messing about AIUI.
>>>>http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/executive_summary.php
>>>>
>>>>Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> We've been using the Warfe pro-audio stuff for a year and have had few
>>> problems. One 2500 watt power amp we used for our 18" subs got sent
>>> back because it was too sensitive and would fault when pushed hard at
>>> 4 ohms. The replacement did not exhibit this behavior under the exact
>>> conditions. I've replaced a couple lamp protectors elsewhere.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't call Wharfedale junk. It's usable, sounds good and reliable
>>> and a lot less expensive than other name brands.
>>
>>I consider W home stereo grade gear, not suitable for Pro Live Sound,
>>below
>>behringer
>>
>
> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.
>
> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
> do use or repair it i have no opinion.

my opionons are formed by the gear I choose to own or not own, I IN FACT put
my money where my mouth is
I OWN a sr company with a 1/4 million dollars of inventory and events that
have run into the 100,000 attendence range
be at it over 20 years
I feature mostly Meyer Sound Labs gear for the serious rig and behringer for
the disposable low end crap
George

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:49 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Jamie" wrote in message
> >
> > Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,

What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
terminology.

> > even though the amp is
> > far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
> > coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
> > than said amp.
>
> Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.

This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
dated.

Graham

Eeyore

November 16th 08, 09:53 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> I feature mostly Meyer Sound Labs gear for the serious rig and behringer for
> the disposable low end crap

I'd love to lnow if Behringer gear destined for the N.A. market still uses
leaded solder. Could exaplin a LOT ! Any chance of asking Jim Savery. I've lost
his contact details.

Graham

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 10:09 PM

>>> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
>>> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
>>> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.
>>>
>>> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
>>> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
>>> do use or repair it i have no opinion.
>>
>>my opionons are formed by the gear I choose to own or not own, I IN FACT
>>put
>>my money where my mouth is
>>I OWN a sr company with a 1/4 million dollars of inventory and events that
>>have run into the 100,000 attendence range
>>be at it over 20 years
>>I feature mostly Meyer Sound Labs gear for the serious rig and behringer
>>for
>>the disposable low end crap
>>George
>>
>
> LOL!

?????????
George

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:13 PM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> liquidator wrote:
>
>
>>"Jamie" wrote in message
>>
>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
>
>
> What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
> terminology.
>
>
>
>>>even though the amp is
>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>than said amp.
>>
>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>
>
> This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
> uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
> dated.
>
> Graham
>
Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
than what you find off the backs of others.

Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
puff of smoke you allowed to escape.

You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.

Thank you and have a nice day, BSA..

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:30 PM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> Jamie wrote:
>
>
>>Boy!, you're way out of your league..
>
>
> Typical Jamie response.
>
> Liquidator knows his stuff 99+ odd % of the time.
>
> Graham
>
It's not shocking that you would side with him. If I
didn't know any better, the two of you must be collaborating.

It would explain a lot of things.

Graham, the hole your digging is getting bigger.
Please watch your step, I wouldn't want to see any one get
hurt now.

You are not an elite in audio design or any other for that fact,
get over your self. I'm sure you're good for something and maybe
one day you'll find it.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:39 PM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> liquidator wrote:
>
>
>>"Jamie" > wrote in message
>>
>>>Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>>
>>Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said was
>>wrong?
>
>
> Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas sometimes
> in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with current
> practice in this area.
>
> Graham
>
LOL, yes, I must say you're correct in this statement..
Because, if you are one that dictates current practices, I
feel sorry for the rest that follows your guide lines! oh
wait, that can never happen. You just simply spit out crap
and never give any useful information that can be used in real life
applications.

You just go on, boasting your fantasy story's..

is there anything you haven't done or don't know?

I know your an old fart and most likely starting to get
senile.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:42 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > Dave we've gooten off on the wrong foot, but what happens is Eeyore
starts
> > these damn crossposts.
> >
> > He has been asked a number of times to stop.
> >
> > He's a nice fellow but he keeps staring into space and mumbling
> > "crossposting is good".
> >
> > What it does is throw groups of people together who don't know each
> > other...it ALWAYS wstarts fights .PERIOD.
> >
> > I wish Graham (Eeyore) would stops as he's been asked to- but he's
convinced
> > he's right, and no amount of logic is gonna change that..
>
> According to the currently accepted rules of netquette, a post that is
relevant
> to several groups SHOULD be cross-posted. Most certainly not multiposted.
>
> Explain how it is off-charter in rec.audio.tech or sci.electronics.repair
where
> a lot of audio is discussed daily. It was a repair question after all !
And
> technical.
>

It's not against the law to fart in an elevator- just because you CAN do
something is it a good idea?

% out of 5 of your last crossposts have started arguments.

It appears to matter not to you. one can only assume you enjoy the
arguments.

Graham, you know I don't have anything against you. But what happens when
there is a disagreement between people in two different groups is that
persons friends join in, often they don't even understand the discussion,
they are just PO'd somebody is dissing their friiend...such arguments can't
be one by anybody, and anybody who posts more than 3 times to them has way
too much time on their hands. But Usenet is full of people with too much
time on their hands. And too little knowledge.

Jamie[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:43 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Jamie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>liquidator wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jamie" > wrote in
>
> message
>
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to use a[n] amp
>>>>>>>larger than the speaker[']s rateing [sic]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Actually, the easiest way to overdrive a speaker is to play it at a
>>>
>>>level
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>where it produces audible distortion. But as most listeners have no
>
> idea
>
>>>>>>what distortion sounds like...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>OTOH distortion does not destroy speakers, speakers are as happy to
>
> play
>
>>>>>distortion as clean signal
>>>>>only when you exceed the heat dissipating ability of the motor do you
>>>
>>>burn
>>>
>>>
>>>>>out a speaker
>>>>>
>>>>>clipping does not damage speakers and distortion does not damage
>>>
>>>speakers,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>its overheating and over excursion that damages speakers
>>>>>distortion is one method of achieving overheating, but you can overheat
>>>
>>>with
>>>
>>>
>>>>>a spotlessly clean signal as well
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Really?, I'll make sure I don't do business with you.
>>>>
>>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation, even though the amp is
>>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>>than said amp.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>>>
>>>George doesn't always word things the best way, but he knows a lot.
>>>
>>>Speakers are rated for average power, over time.
>>>
>>>Look at the area under a square wave- it is a lot larger than the area
>
> under
>
>>>a sine wave. What that means is more power for a longer time. What is
>>>happening is the AMOUNT of power is being increased to a speaker for a
>>>longer TIME.
>>>
>>>Plain and simple- that is more power. It is the amout of power over time
>>>that kills the speaker...it can only shed heat so fast, put power in
>
> faster
>
>>>than that it will burn up.
>>>
>>>Simple..just use a bigger amp...and drive it to peak, you can blow the
>>>speaker quickly.
>>>
>>>Use a smaller amp, and drive it to its full power for longer, and the
>>>speaker will blow, assuming the amp is big enough to put out that much
>>>average power.
>>>Either way- it is power that is the culprit. The amount of energy being
>
> put
>
>>>into the speaker...put it in faster than the speaker can sink it, you
>
> will
>
>>>have thermal failure.
>>>
>>>It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it
>
> want to
>
>>>insist.
>>>
>>>Make the amp small enough, the speaker can handle any waveform. Make the
>
> amp
>
>>>big enough and the speaker will fail instantly with any input at
>
> all...then
>
>>>there are a million scenarios in between.
>>>
>>>I disagreee with George, I use big amps and don't blow speaker,
>
> conversely
>
>>>people are blowing their 100 watt speakers with "50 watt" amplifiers.
>>>
>>> Take a look at an EV speaker rating...xxx watss with pink noise for xxx
>>>hours.
>>>
>>>Change the signal, the speaker's rating changes. Incraes the time, the
>>>speaker's rating changes.
>>>
>>>Square waves or severe clipping is more power for a longer time. That is
>
> all
>
>>>it is.
>>>
>>>Not DC, not any big mystery, it's a measurable phenomenon.
>>>
>>>I do agree with George that sizing amps and sopeakers reduces chance for
>>>failure. But many touring companies use big amps for horns also, larger
>
> amps
>
>>>tend to hold their resale better, from a business standpoint make more
>
> sense
>
>>>to me.
>>>
>>>Here's a semi pro example-
>>>
>>>Loot at the price difference between a Behringer 2500 and a 1500. Not
>>>much...but come resale time you will do a lot better with the 2500..
>>>
>>>Business is business, I buy bigger amps. your mileage may vary.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What ever you do think you know as fact, must of come at a great expense
>>of destroying a lot of electronics.
>>
>
>
> Again showing your gross ignorance.
> As a working pro I'm sure I paid more in taxes than you earned.
>
> Welcome to the killfiles as the only total loss I've seen today.
>
> Dont' bother replying, but your juvenile need to will make you do it anyway.
>
>
Thank you very much, and don't worry, my kill file is full of idiots
like you.

P.S.
No one person is over anyone else. Just remember, every one
can be replaced with better than what you think you are.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:49 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>out of touch with current
> practice .
>

Voltage and resistance practice too.As well as theory.

Since you insist on groaner puns....

Ghandi of cousre, was an Indian holy man. What is not know as much is he had
to walk everywhere, consequently building up heavy callouses on his feet.

Due to poor diet, he suffered constant ill health and bad breath.

He was a super calloused fragile mystic vexed by halitosis.

I hope that settles the matter.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:51 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote
> > >
> > > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
the
> > > results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> >
> > You would have flunked electronics 101.
> >
> > Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> > ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
>
> In the early days of DC coupled outputs, some amps still had a degree of
> internal AC coupling or bypassing in the drive circuitry.
>
> They could indeed 'drift' DC under prolonged overdrive.
>

You are spot on with that condition...but I assumed that we would be talking
about "current" amps.

I wouldn't be using any of those old amps on the job.

liquidator[_2_]

November 16th 08, 10:53 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>
> > "William Sommerwerck" > wrote
> >
> > >>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
> > >>> and have been up since 2AM.)
> > >
> > >> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
> > >> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
> > >
> > > As in...
> > >
> > > http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
> > >
> > Same brewery but this IPA
> >
http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm
>
> Are you familiar with the origin of the name 'IPA' ?
>

Curious- India Pale? No I'd be interested in where the term came from...I
knew the gin and tonic came from having to drink quinine against malaria.

George's Pro Sound Company

November 16th 08, 10:59 PM

"liquidator" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>>
>> > "William Sommerwerck" > wrote
>> >
>> > >>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
>> > >>> and have been up since 2AM.)
>> > >
>> > >> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
>> > >> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
>> > >
>> > > As in...
>> > >
>> > > http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
>> > >
>> > Same brewery but this IPA
>> >
> http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm
>>
>> Are you familiar with the origin of the name 'IPA' ?
>>
>
> Curious- India Pale? No I'd be interested in where the term came from...I
> knew the gin and tonic came from having to drink quinine against malaria.

extra hops were added to the beer going from Great Britain to India as a
preservative
hence India Pale Ale, the pale ale bound for India

so a IPA is a hoppier Pale ale
and a double IPA is Hoppier, Imperial Pales are also sometimes called double
IPA's
George
>
>

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 12:17 AM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> liquidator > wrote:
> > It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it
> > want to insist.
>
> Drive an amp hard enough and that's what you effectively get, as far as
> the speaker is concerned. Try taking your head out of your arse and use
> that scope.
>

Ignorance is bliss and you are happy the way you are.

Simply, you are just plain wrong. You seem to be interested in making
yourself look worse and worse, go on about it with somebody else please.

You've sufficiently proven it to me.

Clipping isn't DC, obvious you never studied engineering. Or physics. Or
much else, it looks like.

Bye. No more time for you. Got real things to do.

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 12:55 AM

Jamie wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > liquidator wrote:
> >>"Jamie" wrote in message
> >>
> >>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
> >
> > What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
> > terminology.
> >
> >>>even though the amp is
> >>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
> >>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
> >>>than said amp.
> >>
> >>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
> >
> > This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
> > uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
> > dated.
>
> Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
> all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
> you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
> than what you find off the backs of others.
>
> Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
> an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
> scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
> puff of smoke you allowed to escape.
>
> You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
> point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.

Answer the bloody question IDIOT !

What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 12:55 AM

Jamie wrote:

> Graham, the hole your digging is getting bigger.

IGNORANT PRICK

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 12:57 AM

Jamie wrote:

> liquidator wrote:
> >
> > Dont' bother replying, but your juvenile need to will make you do it anyway.
> >
> Thank you very much, and don't worry, my kill file is full of idiots

You should add yourself !

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 01:00 AM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote in message
> > liquidator wrote:
> > > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
> > > >
> > > > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and see
> > > > the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> > >
> > > You would have flunked electronics 101.
> > >
> > > Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled years
> > > ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
> >
> > In the early days of DC coupled outputs, some amps still had a degree of
> > internal AC coupling or bypassing in the drive circuitry.
> >
> > They could indeed 'drift' DC under prolonged overdrive.
>
> You are spot on with that condition...but I assumed that we would be talking
> about "current" amps.
>
> I wouldn't be using any of those old amps on the job.

Me neither. I wonder if that was part of the reason for the Flame Linear
monicker, or was it just inadequate heatsinking ?

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 01:05 AM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
> > George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> > > "William Sommerwerck" wrote
> > >
> > > >>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
> > > >>> and have been up since 2AM.)
> > > >
> > > >> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
> > > >> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
> > > >
> > > > As in...
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
> > > >
> > > Same brewery but this IPA
> > >
> http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm
> >
> > Are you familiar with the origin of the name 'IPA' ?
>
> Curious- India Pale? No I'd be interested in where the term came from...I
> knew the gin and tonic came from having to drink quinine against malaria.

Indeed. India Pale Ale. It was indeed exported from Britain to India in the
days of the Raj and to be able to wiststand the long sea voyages had to contain
a fair percentage of alcohol to prevent it going off. The length of journey
also allowed it to mature nicely.

Graham

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 01:55 AM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Eeyore" wrote in message
> > > liquidator wrote:
> > > > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and
see
> > > > > the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> > > >
> > > > You would have flunked electronics 101.
> > > >
> > > > Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled
years
> > > > ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
> > >
> > > In the early days of DC coupled outputs, some amps still had a degree
of
> > > internal AC coupling or bypassing in the drive circuitry.
> > >
> > > They could indeed 'drift' DC under prolonged overdrive.
> >
> > You are spot on with that condition...but I assumed that we would be
talking
> > about "current" amps.
> >
> > I wouldn't be using any of those old amps on the job.
>
> Me neither. I wonder if that was part of the reason for the Flame Linear
> monicker, or was it just inadequate heatsinking ?
>
> Graham
>
>

I think you could check "all of the above"

It was designed to be light and cheap...remember, it was a home stereo
amp...it just found favor in pro use, it was never meant to be pro...

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 01:56 AM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> liquidator wrote:
>
> > "Eeyore" wrote
> > > George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> > > > "William Sommerwerck" wrote
> > > >
> > > > >>> What gets you up so early on a Sunday? (I'm on the west coast,
> > > > >>> and have been up since 2AM.)
> > > > >
> > > > >> went out had a couple of dogfish 90 minutes and that set me down
> > > > >> early(8pm) some days your just not tired at 4 am
> > > > >
> > > > > As in...
> > > > >
> > > > >
http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Seasonal_Beers/Punkin_Ale/3/index.htm
> > > > >
> > > > Same brewery but this IPA
> > > >
> >
http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/90_Minute_IPA/11/index.htm
> > >
> > > Are you familiar with the origin of the name 'IPA' ?
> >
> > Curious- India Pale? No I'd be interested in where the term came
from...I
> > knew the gin and tonic came from having to drink quinine against
malaria.
>
> Indeed. India Pale Ale. It was indeed exported from Britain to India in
the
> days of the Raj and to be able to wiststand the long sea voyages had to
contain
> a fair percentage of alcohol to prevent it going off. The length of
journey
> also allowed it to mature nicely.
>
Perhaps Jamie should go on a long journey...

Jamie[_2_]

November 17th 08, 02:32 AM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> Jamie wrote:
>
>
>>liquidator wrote:
>>
>>>Dont' bother replying, but your juvenile need to will make you do it anyway.
>>>
>>
>>Thank you very much, and don't worry, my kill file is full of idiots
>
>
> You should add yourself !
>
Oh, that's so intellectual of you.

Is that the best you got ?

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Jamie[_2_]

November 17th 08, 02:46 AM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> Jamie wrote:
>
>
>>Eeyore wrote:
>>
>>>liquidator wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Jamie" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
>>>
>>>What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
>>>terminology.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>even though the amp is
>>>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>>>than said amp.
>>>>
>>>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>>>
>>>This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
>>>uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
>>>dated.
>>
>> Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
>>all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
>>you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
>>than what you find off the backs of others.
>>
>> Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
>>an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
>>scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
>>puff of smoke you allowed to escape.
>>
>> You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
>>point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.
>
>
> Answer the bloody question IDIOT !
>
> What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.
>
> Graham
>
I proved my point..

You smuck. It's time to relinquish the community
PC and let the next guest in that ward, have their turn.

You may want to look in the hall before sneaking back
to your room. I'm sure they are looking for you.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

George's Pro Sound Company

November 17th 08, 02:54 AM

"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
> Eeyore wrote:
>
>>
>> Jamie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Eeyore wrote:
>>>
>>>>liquidator wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Jamie" wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
>>>>
>>>>What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
>>>>terminology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>even though the amp is
>>>>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the
>>>>>>speaker
>>>>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>>>>than said amp.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but
>>>>constantly
>>>>uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is
>>>>also very
>>>>dated.
>>>
>>> Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
>>>all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
>>>you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
>>>than what you find off the backs of others.
>>>
>>> Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
>>>an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
>>>scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
>>>puff of smoke you allowed to escape.
>>>
>>> You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
>>>point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.
>>
>>
>> Answer the bloody question IDIOT !
>>
>> What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.
>>
>> Graham
>>
> I proved my point..
>
> You smuck. It's time to relinquish the community
> PC and let the next guest in that ward, have their turn.
>
> You may want to look in the hall before sneaking back
> to your room. I'm sure they are looking for you.
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
seen anything but pure rubbish from you

and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
George
>

Phil Allison

November 17th 08, 03:00 AM

"George's Pro Sound Company"
"Jamie"

> I got to say Jamie, compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
> seen anything but pure rubbish from you

** "Jamie" is actually one Maynard A. Philbrook.

Maynard is a another ****wit radio ham, call sign: KA1LPA

Maynard makes his living as a code scribbler, he is no electronics tech.

Maynard is mentally defective as hell.

...... Phil

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 07:50 AM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
> > liquidator wrote:
> > > "Eeyore" wrote in message
> > > > liquidator wrote:
> > > > > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggest you try driving a DC coupled amp into heavy clipping and
> > > > > ? see the results to speakers which can nominally handle its output.
> > > > >
> > > > > You would have flunked electronics 101.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clipping and DC are not the same thing. That argument was selltled
> > > > > years ago- only those with minimal knowledge advance it today.
> > > >
> > > > In the early days of DC coupled outputs, some amps still had a degree
> > > > of internal AC coupling or bypassing in the drive circuitry.
> > > >
> > > > They could indeed 'drift' DC under prolonged overdrive.

I remember know. You'd get a charge pump effect.

> > > You are spot on with that condition...but I assumed that we would be
> > > talking about "current" amps.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be using any of those old amps on the job.
> >
> > Me neither. I wonder if that was part of the reason for the Flame Linear
> > monicker, or was it just inadequate heatsinking ?
>
> I think you could check "all of the above"
>
> It was designed to be light and cheap...remember, it was a home stereo
> amp...it just found favor in pro use, it was never meant to be pro...

Still saw enough of them in amp racks. Usually with a pair of Boxer fans
blowing on the heatsinks.

Studiomaster's original 800B was a modified, increased power and ruggedised
version of the PL700 with the Boxer fans built in ! And before George jumps
down my throat for copying it, it was well before my time there.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 07:51 AM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> >
> > Indeed. India Pale Ale. It was indeed exported from Britain to India in
> > the days of the Raj and to be able to wiststand the long sea voyages had to
>
> > contain a fair percentage of alcohol to prevent it going off. The length of
>
> >journey also allowed it to mature nicely.
> >
> Perhaps Jamie should go on a long journey...

Good advice !

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 07:56 AM

Jamie wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Jamie wrote:
> >>Eeyore wrote:
> >>>liquidator wrote:
> >>>>"Jamie" wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
> >>>
> >>>What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
> >>>terminology.
> >>>
> >>>>>even though the amp is
> >>>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
> >>>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
> >>>>>than said amp.
> >>>>
> >>>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
> >>>
> >>>This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
> >>>uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
> >>>dated.
> >>
> >> Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
> >>all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
> >>you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
> >>than what you find off the backs of others.
> >>
> >> Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
> >>an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
> >>scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
> >>puff of smoke you allowed to escape.
> >>
> >> You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
> >>point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.
> >
> > Answer the bloody question IDIOT !
> >
> > What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.
> >
> > Graham
>
> I proved my point..

You have proved NOTHING and STILL failed to answer the question posed of you several
times now and not once addressed..

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 09:26 AM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
> seen anything but pure rubbish from you
>
> and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
> there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
> George

Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I first
joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.

I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by Behringer
for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you remind me of his
contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?

Graham

Dave Plowman (News)

November 17th 08, 09:30 AM

In article >,
liquidator > wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > liquidator > wrote:
> > > It is not DC as people who skimmed one book and didn't understand it
> > > want to insist.
> >
> > Drive an amp hard enough and that's what you effectively get, as far as
> > the speaker is concerned. Try taking your head out of your arse and use
> > that scope.
> >

> Ignorance is bliss and you are happy the way you are.

I'm afraid you're the one displaying that ignorance. By assuming too many
things.

> Simply, you are just plain wrong. You seem to be interested in making
> yourself look worse and worse, go on about it with somebody else please.

> You've sufficiently proven it to me.

> Clipping isn't DC, obvious you never studied engineering. Or physics. Or
> much else, it looks like.

Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very* hard - we're
talking severe overload here - and look at the output. It will approach
the power rails.

> Bye. No more time for you. Got real things to do.

Talk about a closed mind.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ron Johnson

November 17th 08, 12:01 PM

Eeyore wrote:
>
> liquidator wrote:
>
>> "Jamie" > wrote in message
>>> Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>> Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I said was
>> wrong?
>
> Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas sometimes
> in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with current
> practice in this area.
>
> Graham
>
See! this is what happens when you crosspost - you get the idiots from
other groups polluting all the groups.

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 12:44 PM

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very* hard - we're
> talking severe overload here - and look at the output. It will approach
> the power rails.

It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the sinewave power of the
amp but not 'DC' though.

Graham

Ron Johnson

November 17th 08, 12:48 PM

Eeyore wrote:
>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
>> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very* hard - we're
>> talking severe overload here - and look at the output. It will approach
>> the power rails.
>
> It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the sinewave power of the
> amp but not 'DC' though.
>
> Graham
>

Alternating DC ;)

Ron(UK)
Please note smiley (those with SoH failure need not apply)

Arny Krueger

November 17th 08, 12:53 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message

> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

>> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
>> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
>> the output. It will approach the power rails.

That's what saturated output devices do.

> It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
output stages snap out of saturation.

This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave with
a similar peak amplitude.

Dave Plowman (News)

November 17th 08, 02:22 PM

In article >,
Arny Krueger > wrote:
> "Eeyore" > wrote in
> message

> > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> >> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
> >> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
> >> the output. It will approach the power rails.

> That's what saturated output devices do.

Indeed.

> > It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> > sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

As far as the speaker coil is concerned it might as well just be. And if
you measure the signal with an analogue meter DC is what you'll see.

> Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
> will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

Agreed.

> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
> there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
> devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
> output stages snap out of saturation.

> This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
> with a similar peak amplitude.

Of course you could argue about what practical DC is. Most will have some
form of ripple etc.

--
*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ron Johnson

November 17th 08, 02:35 PM

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article >,
> Arny Krueger > wrote:
>> "Eeyore" > wrote in
>> message
>
>>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
>>>> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
>>>> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
>>>> the output. It will approach the power rails.
>
>> That's what saturated output devices do.
>
> Indeed.
>
>>> It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
>>> sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.
>
> As far as the speaker coil is concerned it might as well just be. And if
> you measure the signal with an analogue meter DC is what you'll see.
>
>> Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
>> will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
>> there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
>> devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
>> output stages snap out of saturation.
>
>> This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
>> with a similar peak amplitude.
>
> Of course you could argue about what practical DC is. Most will have some
> form of ripple etc.
>

I`m getting a terrible sense of DejaVu about this thread

ROn

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 02:58 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> >> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
> >> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
> >> the output. It will approach the power rails.
>
> That's what saturated output devices do.

Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if anti-saturation measures such
as a Baker Clamp are used.

> > It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> > sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.
>
> Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
> will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but probably not to a large
degree.

> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
> there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
> devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
> output stages snap out of saturation.

Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.

> This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave with
> a similar peak amplitude.

Around twice.

Graham

George's Pro Sound Company

November 17th 08, 05:28 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:09:31 -0500, "George's Pro Sound Company"
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>>> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
>>>>> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
>>>>> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
>>>>> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
>>>>> do use or repair it i have no opinion.
>>>>
>>>>my opionons are formed by the gear I choose to own or not own, I IN FACT
>>>>put
>>>>my money where my mouth is
>>>>I OWN a sr company with a 1/4 million dollars of inventory and events
>>>>that
>>>>have run into the 100,000 attendence range
>>>>be at it over 20 years
>>>>I feature mostly Meyer Sound Labs gear for the serious rig and behringer
>>>>for
>>>>the disposable low end crap
>>>>George
>>>>
>>>
>>> LOL!
>>
>>?????????
>>George
>>
>
> **** off you bloated bag of gas.
>
>
> Did you understand that?

I guess your a run of the mill solder jockey whom inhaled to many lead fumes
as a boy
That what your posts indicate

Living well is my best revenge against small minds like yours
George

George's Pro Sound Company

November 17th 08, 06:30 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:28:41 -0500, "George's Pro Sound Company"
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:09:31 -0500, "George's Pro Sound Company"
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Glad to hear it. I don't suppose you're a musician who uses Wharfe
>>>>>>> gear or repairs pro audio gear for a living, but rather just another
>>>>>>> consumer or retailer who has an opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as the Behringer gear goes I have no experience with it so
>>>>>>> other than seeing a lot of negative comments about it from those who
>>>>>>> do use or repair it i have no opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>my opionons are formed by the gear I choose to own or not own, I IN
>>>>>>FACT
>>>>>>put
>>>>>>my money where my mouth is
>>>>>>I OWN a sr company with a 1/4 million dollars of inventory and events
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>have run into the 100,000 attendence range
>>>>>>be at it over 20 years
>>>>>>I feature mostly Meyer Sound Labs gear for the serious rig and
>>>>>>behringer
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the disposable low end crap
>>>>>>George
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>>?????????
>>>>George
>>>>
>>>
>>> **** off you bloated bag of gas.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you understand that?
>>
>>I guess your a run of the mill solder jockey whom inhaled to many lead
>>fumes
>>as a boy
>>That what your posts indicate
>>
>>Living well is my best revenge against small minds like yours
>>George
>>
>
> IF bloated gas bag replies THEN goto **** off.
>
> I'll give you one credit however, you
> rec.audio.tech/alt.audio.pro.live-sound ****heads breath a little
> life into s.e.r.
>
>
wish we could say the same for the s.e.r merkins
George

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 06:37 PM

"Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Eeyore wrote:
> >
> > liquidator wrote:
> >
> >> "Jamie" > wrote in
message
> >>> Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
> >> Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I
said was
> >> wrong?
> >
> > Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas
sometimes
> > in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with
current
> > practice in this area.
> >
> > Graham
> >
> See! this is what happens when you crosspost - you get the idiots from
> other groups polluting all the groups.

Can I get an Amen?

Been bitching at Graham to stop this **** for probably a year.

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 06:53 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
> Still saw enough of them in amp racks. Usually with a pair of Boxer fans
> blowing on the heatsinks.
>

Most I ever counted was a festival system, 72 Phase 400's in racks. Not mine
of course, we had two systems, both together were less than half that.

I think we owned about 36, generally 6 on the bench, 6 as spares, 24 in
actual use.

But they were cheaper, lighter, and sounded better than Crowns.

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 07:01 PM

"Ron Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Arny Krueger > wrote:
> >> "Eeyore" > wrote in
> >> message
> >
> >>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> >
> >>>> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
> >>>> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
> >>>> the output. It will approach the power rails.
> >
> >> That's what saturated output devices do.
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> >>> It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> >>> sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.
> >
> > As far as the speaker coil is concerned it might as well just be. And if
> > you measure the signal with an analogue meter DC is what you'll see.
> >
> >> Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral
content
> >> will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
> >> there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the
output
> >> devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
> >> output stages snap out of saturation.
> >
> >> This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
> >> with a similar peak amplitude.
> >
> > Of course you could argue about what practical DC is. Most will have
some
> > form of ripple etc.
> >
>
> I`m getting a terrible sense of DejaVu about this thread
>

Yeah, it's been hashed a dozen times, clipping ain't DC, and people with
high levels of knowledge don't say it is.

Just salesmen and and fader jocks. Not real engineers.

In practice, the severely clipped amp won't do a perfect square wave, it
will sag. so the "virtual DC" argument falls flat on it's face...most supply
rails do not have enough storage to sustain a full square wave...some of the
real heavy old iron may.

But I don't talk about old amps to make a point, nobody uses them any more.

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 07:04 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> > "Eeyore" > wrote
> > > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> >
> > >> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
> > >> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
> > >> the output. It will approach the power rails.
> >
> > That's what saturated output devices do.
>
> Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if anti-saturation
measures such
> as a Baker Clamp are used.
>
>
> > > It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> > > sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.
> >
> > Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
> > will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.
>
> Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but probably not to a large
> degree.
>
>
> > The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
> > there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
> > devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
> > output stages snap out of saturation.
>
> Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.
>
>
> > This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
with
> > a similar peak amplitude.
>
> Around twice.
>

Arny and I agree?

Chicken Little was right...

I argue how close it is to virtual DC though.

I certainly don't feel it fits the definition.

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 07:07 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>
> > I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
> > seen anything but pure rubbish from you
> >
> > and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
> > there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
> > George
>
> Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I first
> joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
> mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.
>
> I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
Behringer
> for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you remind me of
his
> contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?
>

Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring if
everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?

But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...

liquidator[_2_]

November 17th 08, 07:11 PM

"Meat Plow" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:00:32 +1100, "Phil Allison"
> >wrote:
>
> >Maynard is mentally defective as hell.
>
> My irony meter just vaporized.

Used to be a stock scene in old Science fiction movies...all the meters go
into overload...someone yells out "Turn back you fool!"

Then the Earth explodes/a dimensional gate opens/a guy is mutated into a
nasty creature...(insert other options here).

George's Pro Sound Company

November 17th 08, 07:22 PM

"liquidator" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
>>
>> > I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I
>> > havn't
>> > seen anything but pure rubbish from you
>> >
>> > and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
>> > there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
>> > George
>>
>> Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I
>> first
>> joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
>> mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.
>>
>> I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
> Behringer
>> for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you remind me
>> of
> his
>> contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?
>>
>
>
> Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring
> if
> everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?
>
> But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
> prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...
>
>
All behringer product I have seen in "a long time" has been lead
free/compliant with the new standards

Arny Krueger

November 17th 08, 07:35 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Eeyore" > wrote
>>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>
>>>> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it
>>>> *very* hard - we're talking severe overload here - and
>>>> look at the output. It will approach the power rails.
>>
>> That's what saturated output devices do.
>
> Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if
> anti-saturation measures such as a Baker Clamp are used.

>>> It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
>>> sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

>> Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose
>> spectral content will depend on the waveform driving the
>> amplifier.

> Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but
> probably not to a large degree.

YMMV.

>> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will
>> have sagged if there is a significant load), minus the
>> saturation voltage of the output devices. If you look
>> closely, there may be some funny stuff where the output
>> stages snap out of saturation.
>
> Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.

Interesting page:

http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/lme49810.html

>> This square wave will of course have more energy in it
>> than a sine wave with a similar peak amplitude.

> Around twice.

IOW, close to the energy content of DC, just with the polarity reversing
from time to time.

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:25 PM

Meat Plow wrote:

> **** off you bloated bag of gas.
>
> Did you understand that?

I'm sure he understood it but King George won't like it one bit. He's a wee bit
temperamental, you know.

He also claims that MDF cabinets are crap despite buying them himself for his 'B
rigs'.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:26 PM

Meat Plow wrote:

> "Phil Allison" >wrote:
>
> >Maynard is mentally defective as hell.
>
> My irony meter just vaporized.

They should get engaged. ;~)

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:29 PM

Meat Plow wrote:

> I'll give you one credit however, you
> rec.audio.tech/alt.audio.pro.live-sound ****heads breath a little
> life into s.e.r.

It's been an interesting combination and as I've said, completely on topic for
all. It's given me a chuckle too to see what the techs think of what Assilon
calls 'fader jockeys'. And then there's Jamie. He's in his own league.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:30 PM

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

> "Meat Plow" > wrote
> >
> > I'll give you one credit however, you
> > rec.audio.tech/alt.audio.pro.live-sound ****heads breath a little
> > life into s.e.r.
> >
> wish we could say the same for the s.e.r merkins
> George

Do you fix your own gear Your Highness ?

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:33 PM

liquidator wrote:

> Been bitching at Graham to stop this **** for probably a year.

I ONLY crosspost when it's on topic for all the groups as per netiquette
standards. Which it clearly was here.

In fact I normally trim groups more than anything, except you don't see that
of course.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:40 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> >
> > Still saw enough of them in amp racks. Usually with a pair of Boxer fans
> > blowing on the heatsinks.
>
> Most I ever counted was a festival system, 72 Phase 400's in racks. Not mine
> of course, we had two systems, both together were less than half that.
>
> I think we owned about 36, generally 6 on the bench, 6 as spares, 24 in
> actual use.
>
> But they were cheaper, lighter, and sounded better than Crowns.

Crowns of that era always sounded gritty to me and had no better heatsinks
either. Never bothered with them then or since. Well especially as I 'roll my
own' these days !

Several UK companies like RSD/Studiomaster and Turner realised the heatsinking
problem and dealt with it. We had a Turner in my rig for a while. Sounded fine
too. It was driving mids (Philishave lookalikes - home made).

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:43 PM

liquidator wrote:

> But I don't talk about old amps to make a point, nobody uses them any more.

Can't afford the fuel to carry them !

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:49 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> > > "Eeyore" > wrote
> > > > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
> > > >> hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
> > > >> the output. It will approach the power rails.
> > >
> > > That's what saturated output devices do.
> >
> > Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if anti-saturation
> > measures such as a Baker Clamp are used.
> >
> > > > It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
> > > > sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.
> > >
> > > Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
> > > will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.
> >
> > Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but probably not to a large
> > degree.
> >
> > > The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
> > > there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
> > > devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
> > > output stages snap out of saturation.
> >
> > Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.
> >
> > > This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
> > > with a similar peak amplitude.
> >
> > Around twice.
>
> Arny and I agree?
>
> Chicken Little was right...
>
> I argue how close it is to virtual DC though.
>
> I certainly don't feel it fits the definition.

It's AC not DC ! Damn, they were on the week before last. 8 Nov.
http://thehorn.co.uk/ click on "What's On" then full listings. Not bad either.
Oh and I could tell you a tale about that evening too ....!

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:55 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
> > George's Pro Sound Company wrote:
> >
> > > I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
> > > seen anything but pure rubbish from you
> > >
> > > and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
> > > there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
> > > George
> >
> > Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I first
> > joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
> > mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.
> >
> > I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
> > Behringer for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you
> remind me of
> > his contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?
>
> Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring if
> everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?

Totally agree. Had a chat about that on Sat in fact.

> But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
> prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...

Don't you DARE get near MY redheads ! Actually haven't seen many in ages but I
can spot them at a fair distance.

Anna was so stunning that - this has never happened before to me or since - my
legs would physically go weak.

I gave her a life home once (with her almost as perfect redhead friend Fiona).
As she left, she gave me a kiss on the neck that felt like sucking and blowing
at the same time. How DO they do it ?

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 10:59 PM

liquidator wrote:

> "Meat Plow" > wrote
> > "Phil Allison" wrote:
> >
> > >Maynard is mentally defective as hell.
> >
> > My irony meter just vaporized.
>
> Used to be a stock scene in old Science fiction movies...all the meters go
> into overload...someone yells out "Turn back you fool!"
>
> Then the Earth explodes/a dimensional gate opens/a guy is mutated into a
> nasty creature...(insert other options here).

I caught the tail end of Alien vs Predator the other night. Boring really.

But then there's 'The Forbidden Planet'. It can still make my flesh tingle.

Graham

Eeyore

November 17th 08, 11:04 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> >> The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will
> >> have sagged if there is a significant load), minus the
> >> saturation voltage of the output devices. If you look
> >> closely, there may be some funny stuff where the output
> >> stages snap out of saturation.
> >
> > Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.
>
> Interesting page:
>
> http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/lme49810.html

Well fancy that ! Nat Semi do make some of the best integrated audio amps.
See Gainclone for example. Although this is only a driver.

Graham

Jamie[_2_]

November 18th 08, 12:01 AM

Ron Johnson wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
>
>>
>> liquidator wrote:
>>
>>> "Jamie" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>> Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!
>>>
>>> Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I
>>> said was
>>> wrong?
>>
>>
>> Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas
>> sometimes
>> in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with
>> current
>> practice in this area.
>>
>> Graham
>>
> See! this is what happens when you crosspost - you get the idiots from
> other groups polluting all the groups.

The blind leading the blind...

its become common plase these days..

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Eeyore

November 18th 08, 12:02 AM

Jamie wrote:

> The blind leading the blind...

You're certainly blind as well as dumb.

Graham

Jamie[_2_]

November 18th 08, 12:10 AM

Eeyore wrote:

>
> Jamie wrote:
>
>
>>Eeyore wrote:
>>
>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>
>>>>Eeyore wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>liquidator wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Jamie" wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,
>>>>>
>>>>>What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
>>>>>terminology.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>even though the amp is
>>>>>>>far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
>>>>>>>coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
>>>>>>>than said amp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
>>>>>uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
>>>>>dated.
>>>>
>>>> Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
>>>>all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
>>>>you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
>>>>than what you find off the backs of others.
>>>>
>>>> Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
>>>>an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
>>>>scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
>>>>puff of smoke you allowed to escape.
>>>>
>>>> You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
>>>>point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.
>>>
>>>Answer the bloody question IDIOT !
>>>
>>>What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.
>>>
>>>Graham
>>
>> I proved my point..
>
>
> You have proved NOTHING and STILL failed to answer the question posed of you several
> times now and not once addressed..
>
> Graham
>
Look you geezer, you can back paddle all you want, it does
not change the facts.

Hacking up a post and twisting things around to detour, in an
attempt to save face, won't cut it..

Look, you want credit where credit is due? Ok.

you're very good at dodging the bullet, or
at least you think you are.

You may have some fooled, but not all.

Have a good day and may it rain on you bald
head, hard!

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"