Re: Amplifier power

[Eeyore]

Once only wrote:

> > wrote in message
>
> > If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
> > amp to buy?
> >
> > Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
> > do I determine this?
> >
>
> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
> sonic characters and abilities.
> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
> to the big girls blouses of this group.
> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
> from the late 80's and early 90's.
> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
> Once you've found a model, look it up!
> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
> special.

But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high then.
Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.

cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech

Graham

[Rob[_10_]]

Eeyore wrote:
>
> Once only wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>>> If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
>>> amp to buy?
>>>
>>> Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
>>> do I determine this?
>>>
>> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
>> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
>> sonic characters and abilities.
>> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
>> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
>> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
>> to the big girls blouses of this group.
>> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
>> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
>> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
>> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
>> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
>> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
>> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
>> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
>> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
>> from the late 80's and early 90's.
>> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
>> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
>> Once you've found a model, look it up!
>> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
>> special.
>
> But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
> the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high then.
> Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.
>
> cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech
>
> Graham
>

I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
Rob

[Eeyore]

Rob wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Once only wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
> >>> amp to buy?
> >>>
> >>> Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
> >>> do I determine this?
> >>>
> >> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
> >> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
> >> sonic characters and abilities.
> >> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
> >> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
> >> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
> >> to the big girls blouses of this group.
> >> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
> >> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
> >> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
> >> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
> >> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
> >> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
> >> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
> >> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
> >> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
> >> from the late 80's and early 90's.
> >> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
> >> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
> >> Once you've found a model, look it up!
> >> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
> >> special.
> >
> > But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
> > the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high then.
> > Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.
> >
> > cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech
>
> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?

I know the 3020 moderately well. It was very well regarded (and designed - I fact I
met the designer) and should still sound at least decent today. At that age,
recapping the electrolytic caps specifically is likely to be a good move.
Especially if you're competent with a soldering iron yourself or have a friend who
is. The parts won't cost much.

You don't have the 'soft clip' engaged do you ? That would make it mellower. Also
clean ALL the input and output sockets. Damn RCA / phono / Cinch crap !

Funnily enough, around the time of the 3020 I nearly worked as a designer for NAD.
The deal breaker was that I wanted to do it on contract and they wanted me full
time. I can still remember the excellent lunch they took me out for btw ! Super
Italian.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Rob wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >
> > Once only wrote:
> >
> >> > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
> >>> amp to buy?
> >>>
> >>> Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
> >>> do I determine this?
> >>>
> >> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
> >> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
> >> sonic characters and abilities.
> >> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
> >> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
> >> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
> >> to the big girls blouses of this group.
> >> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
> >> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
> >> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
> >> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
> >> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
> >> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
> >> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
> >> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
> >> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
> >> from the late 80's and early 90's.
> >> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
> >> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
> >> Once you've found a model, look it up!
> >> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
> >> special.
> >
> > But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
> > the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high then.
> > Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.
> >
> > cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech
>
> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
> Rob

I believe I already answered this but the OP's multi-posting may have effed things
up.

It certainly wasn't poorly designed. In fact I have a great deal of respect for the
designer, a Norwegian whose name eludes me now. He used to work for Dolby Labs btw
at one time btw IIRC. I've have many hours of satisfactory listening through one at
some friends' house through some Mission speakers too (when they still used decent
SEAS units).

Graham

[Martin Schöön]

Eeyore > writes:

> Rob wrote:
>>
>> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
>> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
>> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
>
> I know the 3020 moderately well. It was very well regarded (and designed - I fact I
> met the designer) and should still sound at least decent today. At that age,
> recapping the electrolytic caps specifically is likely to be a good move.
> Especially if you're competent with a soldering iron yourself or have a friend who
> is. The parts won't cost much.
>
So true.

Some ten years ago I did this to a ten plus but not quite twenty years
old amp (not NAD) and the improvement was a jaw dropper.

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

[GregS[_3_]]

In article >, Eeyore > wrote:
>
>
>Rob wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> > Once only wrote:
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >>
>> >>> If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
>> >>> amp to buy?
>> >>>
>> >>> Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
>> >>> do I determine this?
>> >>>
>> >> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
>> >> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
>> >> sonic characters and abilities.
>> >> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
>> >> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
>> >> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
>> >> to the big girls blouses of this group.
>> >> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
>> >> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
>> >> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
>> >> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
>> >> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
>> >> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
>> >> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
>> >> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
>> >> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
>> >> from the late 80's and early 90's.
>> >> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
>> >> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
>> >> Once you've found a model, look it up!
>> >> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
>> >> special.
>> >
>> > But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
>> > the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high
> then.
>> > Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.
>> >
>> > cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech
>>
>> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
>> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
>> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
>
>I know the 3020 moderately well. It was very well regarded (and designed - I
> fact I
>met the designer) and should still sound at least decent today. At that age,
>recapping the electrolytic caps specifically is likely to be a good move.
>Especially if you're competent with a soldering iron yourself or have a friend
> who
>is. The parts won't cost much.

I have gone over many amps, and its really rare that I would need to replace
the main caps. Many times the smaller caps will go bad. If I were really
going over an amp in every detail, if I had plenty of time, then I might
check the main caps, or even buffer them. Its likely an amp will sound
just fine if not driven hard with lossy main caps. If it can obtain max
power with resonable distortion then I would not touch the main caps.

greg



>You don't have the 'soft clip' engaged do you ? That would make it mellower.
> Also
>clean ALL the input and output sockets. Damn RCA / phono / Cinch crap !
>
>Funnily enough, around the time of the 3020 I nearly worked as a designer for
> NAD.
>The deal breaker was that I wanted to do it on contract and they wanted me full
>time. I can still remember the excellent lunch they took me out for btw ! Super
>Italian.
>
>Graham
>

[Marky P]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:23:19 +0200, (Martin
Schöön) wrote:

>Eeyore > writes:
>
>> Rob wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
>>> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
>>> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
>>
>> I know the 3020 moderately well. It was very well regarded (and designed - I fact I
>> met the designer) and should still sound at least decent today. At that age,
>> recapping the electrolytic caps specifically is likely to be a good move.
>> Especially if you're competent with a soldering iron yourself or have a friend who
>> is. The parts won't cost much.
>>
>So true.
>
>Some ten years ago I did this to a ten plus but not quite twenty years
>old amp (not NAD) and the improvement was a jaw dropper.

I replaced all the caps in my 1960 Wurlitzer amp. Made a world of
difference.

Marky P.

[Eeyore]

GregS wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >Rob wrote:
> >> Eeyore wrote:
> >> > Once only wrote:
> >> >> > wrote in message
> >> >>
> >> >>> If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
> >> >>> amp to buy?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
> >> >>> do I determine this?
> >> >>>
> >> >> No, thats not true - the myth of long wire with gain.
> >> >> Amplifiers can have very similar specs but have different
> >> >> sonic characters and abilities.
> >> >> Bandwidth and an amps ability to pump out the amperes
> >> >> when fronted with an awkward load etc etc etc.
> >> >> If I were you the first thing is to not pay too much attention
> >> >> to the big girls blouses of this group.
> >> >> Do yourself a favour, don't heed mag reviewers advice either.
> >> >> Try the pre-owned market, plenty of stereo bargains to be had.
> >> >> This is just one example, the Pioneer A400 was a huge success
> >> >> because of it ultra wide stable bandwidth (5 - 100) and it's
> >> >> impressive ability to drive any loudspeaker and remain stable -
> >> >> thats the ability to churn out amperes!
> >> >> It sold by the truck load and often crops up in the for sale ads,
> >> >> and it is proven to be a rugged longstander, can be picked up
> >> >> for less than £100. But then there are others, Nad, and even Sony
> >> >> from the late 80's and early 90's.
> >> >> First port of call believe it or not would be Cash Converters,
> >> >> then the specialist pre-owned dealers, then the small ads.
> >> >> Once you've found a model, look it up!
> >> >> Don't bother with Naim or Arcam, over-priced and nothing
> >> >> special.
> >> >
> >> > But don't buy antiques. No matter how well they were supposed to sound. All
> >> > the electrolytic caps will need replacing and standards weren't as high
> >> > then.
> >> > Modern amplifiers are much better on the whole.
> >> >
> >> > cross-posted intentionally to rec.audio tech
> >>
> >> I have a 20 year old (at least) NAD 3020 - works perfectly but sounds
> >> distinctly soft/mellow compared to a newish SS amp, and indeed an even
> >> older Pioneer receiver. Is this a symptom of old caps, and/or poor design?
> >
> >I know the 3020 moderately well. It was very well regarded (and designed - I
> > fact I met the designer) and should still sound at least decent today. At that age,
> >recapping the electrolytic caps specifically is likely to be a good move.
> >Especially if you're competent with a soldering iron yourself or have a friend
> > who is. The parts won't cost much.
>
> I have gone over many amps, and its really rare that I would need to replace
> the main caps. Many times the smaller caps will go bad. If I were really
> going over an amp in every detail, if I had plenty of time, then I might
> check the main caps, or even buffer them. Its likely an amp will sound
> just fine if not driven hard with lossy main caps. If it can obtain max
> power with resonable distortion then I would not touch the main caps.

I'd avoid over over-generalising. The lifetime / ripple current rating etc of reservoir caps varies
hugely. Any sign of a bulge or white/yellow deposits around the base and out it comes.

Graham