Super cheap tube preamps!

[bayydogg]

Any impressions on the Presonus TubePre? How about the Project Studios
VTB-1? I wonder if any of you have experimented with different tubes
in the TubePre, which is user replaceable. How would either of these
fare with a good $400-500 (street) condensor mic for on-location voice
or vocals recording, maybe through an RNC? Warm, clear? I know these
don't have all the fizz of bigtime products, but they are cheap and
maybe they are actually good sonically.

[James Boyk]

bayydogg wrote: Any impressions on the Presonus TubePre? How about the
Project Studios VTB-1?

I can't find the Project Studios unit on the web, but a quick look at
the Presonus (
http://www.kellyindustries.com/signalprocessors/presonus_tubepre.html )
puzzles me. Is this a solid-state preamp with a tube stage to
intentionally add coloration? Is the tube stage even in-line? Or is it a
side chain? It's unlikely that a true tube preamp would have the
specified output Z of 51 ohms; or that a 12AX7 would work as a mike-pre
input stage except with a transformer; You speak of the unit as cheap,
so presumably it does not have a transformer. What gives?

James Boyk

[badperson]

"Is this a solid-state preamp with a tube stage to
intentionally add coloration?"

I think so. I have one, it's ok for $100, but it's no avalon. The presonus
"toob" pre has a "drive" knob to determine how much coloration, which leads
me to believe it's what you suggested.

I can't ****ing wait to get an avalon, or great river, or something.







"James Boyk" > wrote in message
...
> bayydogg wrote: Any impressions on the Presonus TubePre? How about the
> Project Studios VTB-1?
>
> I can't find the Project Studios unit on the web, but a quick look at
> the Presonus (
> http://www.kellyindustries.com/signalprocessors/presonus_tubepre.html )
> puzzles me. Is this a solid-state preamp with a tube stage to
> intentionally add coloration? Is the tube stage even in-line? Or is it a
> side chain? It's unlikely that a true tube preamp would have the
> specified output Z of 51 ohms; or that a 12AX7 would work as a mike-pre
> input stage except with a transformer; You speak of the unit as cheap,
> so presumably it does not have a transformer. What gives?
>
> James Boyk
>

[James Boyk]

How to give tubes a bad name! It's ironic, since they're probably the
most accurate, neutral devices for use as mike pre's.

James Boyk

[bayydogg]

ok, so these transister front-ends are not very good,
apparently, and are an insult to vacuum tube technology.
i also presume an all-tube all-stage mic preamp proffers
a real tube experience. hence, what is the bottom line
in terms of US$ for a no-frills mono all-tube all-stage
preamp? something with a gain knob, xlr in, 48v, maybe a
peak led, and an output? does such a simple beast exist?


In article >, says...
>
>How to give tubes a bad name! It's ironic, since they're probably the
>most accurate, neutral devices for use as mike pre's.
>
>James Boyk
>

[Ken MacGregor]

Well, it was stereo, not mono, and didn't have peak LEDs, but up until recently
the best cheap all tube preamp you could get was the AMR (Peavy) VMP-2, $800
new. Do an archive search on VMP-2 and you will see what I mean. Since
production has stopped on this unit, you will have to look for a used one.... I
have one, and it is not for sale.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> bayydogg wrote: Any impressions on the Presonus TubePre? How about the
> Project Studios VTB-1?
>
> I can't find the Project Studios unit on the web


That's because it's Studio Projects. If you use the hard-to-find
Project Studios preamp, your music comes out backwards. Great for
playing those Jimi Hendrix parts.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[DJ]

http://www.dwfearn.com/vt1.htm

This is what you just described.

I have seen these FS occasionally used for around $1k to $1300.00 when you
can find one.


bayydogg > wrote in message
...
> ok, so these transister front-ends are not very good,
> apparently, and are an insult to vacuum tube technology.
> i also presume an all-tube all-stage mic preamp proffers
> a real tube experience. hence, what is the bottom line
> in terms of US$ for a no-frills mono all-tube all-stage
> preamp? something with a gain knob, xlr in, 48v, maybe a
> peak led, and an output? does such a simple beast exist?
>
>
> In article >, says...
> >
> >How to give tubes a bad name! It's ironic, since they're probably the
> >most accurate, neutral devices for use as mike pre's.
> >
> >James Boyk
> >
>
>
>

[Analogeezer]

James Boyk > wrote in message >...
> How to give tubes a bad name! It's ironic, since they're probably the
> most accurate, neutral devices for use as mike pre's.
>
> James Boyk

Maybe I've got it wrong, but I've never heard of a transformerless
tube mic pre, is there such a thing?

The reason I bring that up is I have noticed what a non-fan of
transformers you are.

I suppose your statement above is somewhat true though.

Analogeezer

p.s. For the type of music you do, have you ever tried a Hardy M-1? As
I understand they are somewhat popular with classical music recording
and they at least have input transformers, output trannies are an
option.

FWIW mine has both and I love the way it sounds, but mic pres are a
very subjective thing.

[bayydogg]

ok,i concur, partially. what do you think of the
drawmer mx60? it's tube emulation. i can't afford
a 737...

>Why do you need a tube preamp? At that price point, you'll be hard
>pressed to find any sort of preamp that sounds palatable at all, and a

[Tom Paul]

(Ken MacGregor) wrote in message >...
> Well, it was stereo, not mono, and didn't have peak LEDs, but up until recently
> the best cheap all tube preamp you could get was the AMR (Peavy) VMP-2, $800
> new. Do an archive search on VMP-2 and you will see what I mean. Since
> production has stopped on this unit, you will have to look for a used one.... I
> have one, and it is not for sale.

I just posted a Demeter 2 channel tube pre for $900 that was a
freaking monster of a pre for that price. I ebayed it last week.

Tom

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> http://www.dwfearn.com/vt1.htm
> This is what you just described.

Well, maybe everything but the super cheap part. I don't consider
these to be super cheap.

It's amazing that things which are simpler than you can easily find
tend to be more expensive than something with the same basic
description that has more bells and whistles. Bells and whistles are
cheap and they make the product attractive to more people, so they can
sell more of them and make them cheaper. That's economics.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Mark T. Wieczorek]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1059266194k@trad:

> That's because it's Studio Projects. If you use the hard-to-find
> Project Studios preamp, your music comes out backwards. Great for
> playing those Jimi Hendrix parts.

Or getting that "w w w WAY DOWN INSIDE. w w w Woman... yyyy You Need...
LOOOOVE" reverse led zep echo.

Regards,
Mark

--
http://www.marktaw.com/

http://www.prosoundreview.com/
User reviews of pro audio gear

[THERMIONIC]

Analogeezer wrote:


>
> Maybe I've got it wrong, but I've never heard of a transformerless
> tube mic pre, is there such a thing?
>

Millennia make a transformerless option for one or two of their tube-pres. A lot of consumer valve pres in the '50/60s used cap-coupling as well to save cost.


> The reason I bring that up is I have noticed what a non-fan of
> transformers you are.
>
>

Trafos are great, "Transformerless" is also fine (GML 8200 is a fave of mine, non-tube I know), once you've captured your tube-sound, why colour it any more?




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.net/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

[bayydogg]

ok, to hell with tubes! i just ordered a grace 101 from musicians
friend for $522, no tax, free shipping and liberal return if i don't
like it. i also have the rnc coming in this tuesday, also free
shipping, no tax and liberal return if i don't like it. granted, both
these units will set me back a tad less than US$700, which is probably
cheese to most of you. but i need something "cheap" to get me over.
send me an email or post something here if you think i screwed up or
not.

> Why do you need a tube preamp? At that price point, you'll be hard
> pressed to find any sort of preamp that sounds palatable at all, and a

[John Washburn]

bayydogg wrote:
> ok, to hell with tubes! i just ordered a grace 101 from musicians
> friend for $522, no tax, free shipping and liberal return if i don't
> like it. i also have the rnc coming in this tuesday, also free
> shipping, no tax and liberal return if i don't like it.

<snip>

> send me an email or post something here if you think i screwed up or
> not.

Without knowing you, your experience, the kind of music you record, the
expected audience or anything else about what you're doing it'd be hard to
know if you screwed up whether you bought the Presonus fake tube thing or
the Grace or anything else.

Why not you wait 'till everything comes, record some stuff and then post
something here about whether or not you think you screwed up, and why or why
not. That'd probably be way more educational for you (and a lot of the
people who're doubtless considering similar decisions).

-jw

[DJ]

> Well, maybe everything but the super cheap part.

Oops!
;-)

Mike Rivers > wrote in message
news:znr1059328751k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > http://www.dwfearn.com/vt1.htm
> > This is what you just described.
>
> Well, maybe everything but the super cheap part. I don't consider
> these to be super cheap.
>
> It's amazing that things which are simpler than you can easily find
> tend to be more expensive than something with the same basic
> description that has more bells and whistles. Bells and whistles are
> cheap and they make the product attractive to more people, so they can
> sell more of them and make them cheaper. That's economics.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Monte P McGuire]

In article >,
bayydogg > wrote:
>ok, to hell with tubes! i just ordered a grace 101 from musicians
>friend for $522, no tax, free shipping and liberal return if i don't
>like it. i also have the rnc coming in this tuesday, also free
>shipping, no tax and liberal return if i don't like it. granted, both
>these units will set me back a tad less than US$700, which is probably
>cheese to most of you. but i need something "cheap" to get me over.
>send me an email or post something here if you think i screwed up or
>not.

A good choice. You will probably find preamps and compressors that
are better (or at least better suited to certain situations) somewhere
down the line, but as a general purpose, "basically clean" chain, you
did well, and you'll be able to use this gear for a long time to come.


I'll say it again, you chose wisely...


Best of luck,

Monte McGuire

[Scott Dorsey]

bayydogg > wrote:
>ok, so these transister front-ends are not very good,
>apparently, and are an insult to vacuum tube technology.
>i also presume an all-tube all-stage mic preamp proffers
>a real tube experience. hence, what is the bottom line
>in terms of US$ for a no-frills mono all-tube all-stage
>preamp? something with a gain knob, xlr in, 48v, maybe a
>peak led, and an output? does such a simple beast exist?

It was pretty much the Peavey VMP-2, which is now gone.

The Bellari is surprising... it has a real tube input stage with a real
input transformer (albeit a really crappy one). Then it has some fairly
doubtful solid-state stuff afterward. But it does sound like a real tube
preamp, even if it doesn't sound like a very good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[FivePin]

"Sugarite" > wrote in message >...
> > If you just want something that sounds decent, don't consider these
> > cheapo tube preamps. They're just junk for Guitar Marts to foist onto
> > misguided home recordists who thought that the computer was the most
> > expensive part of a home studio. Buy quality gear and it will last,
> > hold its resale value and provide years of productive use. Cheap junk
> > is never worth it in the long run.
>
> I've found the DBX 386 to be a comfortable medium. It was rather overpriced
> at retail, but the used market has settled on a price around $300, and for a
> dual tube preamp with a reasonable power supply and 250V plate voltage, that
> ain't bad. It easily outperforms token tube units like the ART TubeMP. And
> the built-in 24/96 a/d converter with digital peak limiter ain't a bad
> bonus. It's more important to get decent solid state pre's first imo, but
> if it's entry-level tube tone you're after, the 386 has good
> cost-effectiveness on the used market.

If you HAVE to use/buy a cheap pre, I would steer clear of the Studio
Projects stuff. I dig the price point/performance ratio of their mics,
but didn't like their VTB1 much.

Depending on your goals for the project, you might want to check out
what Joe Meek has to offer.

http://www.joemeek.com/products.html

Fivepin

[James Boyk]

The problem of course is that a good xfmr. costs a ton; and even though
a tube input stage w/ no xfmr. is perfectly doable and usable, the S/N
specs won't look great, so people will be put off. The mere fact that it
can still be quiet enough to record acoustic guitar from five or six
feet w/ a ribbon mike, and with little or no hiss audible on playback at
normal guitar level---this won't affect things.

James Boyk

[Luke Kaven]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>bayydogg > wrote:
>>ok, so these transister front-ends are not very good,
>>apparently, and are an insult to vacuum tube technology.
>>i also presume an all-tube all-stage mic preamp proffers
>>a real tube experience. hence, what is the bottom line
>>in terms of US$ for a no-frills mono all-tube all-stage
>>preamp? something with a gain knob, xlr in, 48v, maybe a
>>peak led, and an output? does such a simple beast exist?
>
>It was pretty much the Peavey VMP-2, which is now gone.
>
>The Bellari is surprising... it has a real tube input stage with a real
>input transformer (albeit a really crappy one). Then it has some fairly
>doubtful solid-state stuff afterward. But it does sound like a real tube
>preamp, even if it doesn't sound like a very good one.
>--scott

It'll be interesting to hear what Scott thinks of the Sebatron
VMP2000e that's supposed to be on its way to him now.