High-quality, low-priced mixer -- a promising candidate?

[Luke Kaven]

Those who have been reading here for the last several years have seen
how often the question comes up: where can I get a high-quality mixer
having 8-32 channels, with professional quality preamps, EQ, and a
reasonable amount of routing, for a reasonable price? Whatever one
thinks of the Mackie or the A&H MixWiz, these just doesn't fit the
bill for many of us. Clearly there has been a big hole in the market.
And there has been a lot of dispute here about just what one can
manufacture in the under $3000 price range (for a 16x4x2 mixer) and
about how big the demand is for such a thing, if it could be made.

I have seen recently preliminary information on a plausible candidate
to fit this need, and at the least, it looks like some of these
questions may get answered in fact.

Over at recording.org, Alan Hyatt moderates a designers' forum
dedicated to some of his ambitious development programs, which include
the popular Studio Projects series, and the highly-anticipated Stephen
Paul microphone(s). Alan has been working with Malcolm Toft for quite
a while now, and we've seen preamps, EQs, and channel boxes from that
collaboration. But now it seems that Malcolm has been designing a
"Reference Standard Mixer". Recently, Alan let leak some of the
details of this project which I thought others would find interesting.

The Toft Designs Reference Standard Mixer appears to consist in an
8x4x2 base unit, that can be combined with up to three 8-channel
expansion modules, to form a mixer of from 8 to 32 channels. The
design is based on the Toft 980 console and Toft's EQ. The target
prices are ~$2000 for the base unit (which includes the master/monitor
section), and and ~$900 for each 8-channel expansion. The unit will
be manufactured in China.

From the preliminary layout, it appears that each channel has (i) a
mic preamp with mic-line switch, phantom switch, phase switch, (ii)
3-band EQ with low-cut, selectable high-low shelves, mid-sweep, and
defeat, (iii) 4 aux busses with bus 2 being assignable pre-post fade,
and busses 3-4 being combined into a stereo bus with a separate pan
(presumably allowing monitor mix), and (iv) fader with pan, solo,
mute, and bus assignment switches. Channel inputs are mic, line,
tape-return, and channel outputs are direct out, insert. The master
section has controls on the submix for folding in the aux busses,
direct outs, inserts, aux sends, f/x returns, and on the stereo bus
for master out, master insert, monitors, headphones, and 2-track
return. There is a built-in talkback mic and slate key. Each units
is individually rack-mountable in its current design, although
expansion units may be bolted together to make a tabletop desk.

The illustration of this is at http://www.toftaudio.com/afm8. I
gather these elements are not fixed, although the circuits are
designed and are presently going out for prototyping. I suspect that
a few changes will be made, and suggestions are being entertained.

First thoughts: This is a very promising design on paper, and the
price-point is appealing. If it lives up to its promise, I think it
stands to fare very well. I'd expect good sonics from Toft. It is
hard to tell what design is being used for the mic preamps. Toft had
been using the SSM2017 before it was discontinued, and I don't know
what he has adopted for a substitute. I would expect a good EQ from
Toft as well. I can't tell what the power supply is or how it is
distributed among the base/expansion units, and this is obviously a
key decision. I can't tell what interconnects are being used between
base and expansion units, and would hope for all balanced
interconnects. Among others things, I would hope to find a pad on the
input, given how hot microphone signals have been on some recent
transformerless designs. I hope that it has 100mm faders suitable for
riding gain. One wonders whether good faders can be made at this
price-point. And that raises the questions of maintenance. Do
channel circuits come on daughtercards, and do these permit any degree
of customizing?

I will be particularly interested in how this design bears out in
practice, since it seems to fit many of my needs, and it promises to
prove or disprove the claims that I've made here several times (and
the counterclaims of others) that such a desk indeed could (and
*should*) be built in this price range. As I understand it, the
product will hit market at the end of this year, or Q1 of 2004.

Luke

[Analogeezer]

Luke Kaven > wrote in message >...
> Those who have been reading here for the last several years have seen
> how often the question comes up: where can I get a high-quality mixer
> having 8-32 channels, with professional quality preamps, EQ, and a
> reasonable amount of routing, for a reasonable price? Whatever one
> thinks of the Mackie or the A&H MixWiz, these just doesn't fit the
> bill for many of us. Clearly there has been a big hole in the market.
> And there has been a lot of dispute here about just what one can
> manufacture in the under $3000 price range (for a 16x4x2 mixer) and
> about how big the demand is for such a thing, if it could be made.
>
> I have seen recently preliminary information on a plausible candidate
> to fit this need, and at the least, it looks like some of these
> questions may get answered in fact.
>
> Over at recording.org, Alan Hyatt moderates a designers' forum
> dedicated to some of his ambitious development programs, which include
> the popular Studio Projects series, and the highly-anticipated Stephen
> Paul microphone(s). Alan has been working with Malcolm Toft for quite
> a while now, and we've seen preamps, EQs, and channel boxes from that
> collaboration. But now it seems that Malcolm has been designing a
> "Reference Standard Mixer". Recently, Alan let leak some of the
> details of this project which I thought others would find interesting.
>
> The Toft Designs Reference Standard Mixer appears to consist in an
> 8x4x2 base unit, that can be combined with up to three 8-channel
> expansion modules, to form a mixer of from 8 to 32 channels. The
> design is based on the Toft 980 console and Toft's EQ. The target
> prices are ~$2000 for the base unit (which includes the master/monitor
> section), and and ~$900 for each 8-channel expansion. The unit will
> be manufactured in China.
>
> From the preliminary layout, it appears that each channel has (i) a
> mic preamp with mic-line switch, phantom switch, phase switch, (ii)
> 3-band EQ with low-cut, selectable high-low shelves, mid-sweep, and
> defeat, (iii) 4 aux busses with bus 2 being assignable pre-post fade,
> and busses 3-4 being combined into a stereo bus with a separate pan
> (presumably allowing monitor mix), and (iv) fader with pan, solo,
> mute, and bus assignment switches. Channel inputs are mic, line,
> tape-return, and channel outputs are direct out, insert. The master
> section has controls on the submix for folding in the aux busses,
> direct outs, inserts, aux sends, f/x returns, and on the stereo bus
> for master out, master insert, monitors, headphones, and 2-track
> return. There is a built-in talkback mic and slate key. Each units
> is individually rack-mountable in its current design, although
> expansion units may be bolted together to make a tabletop desk.
>
> The illustration of this is at http://www.toftaudio.com/afm8. I
> gather these elements are not fixed, although the circuits are
> designed and are presently going out for prototyping. I suspect that
> a few changes will be made, and suggestions are being entertained.
>
> First thoughts: This is a very promising design on paper, and the
> price-point is appealing. If it lives up to its promise, I think it
> stands to fare very well. I'd expect good sonics from Toft. It is
> hard to tell what design is being used for the mic preamps. Toft had
> been using the SSM2017 before it was discontinued, and I don't know
> what he has adopted for a substitute. I would expect a good EQ from
> Toft as well. I can't tell what the power supply is or how it is
> distributed among the base/expansion units, and this is obviously a
> key decision. I can't tell what interconnects are being used between
> base and expansion units, and would hope for all balanced
> interconnects. Among others things, I would hope to find a pad on the
> input, given how hot microphone signals have been on some recent
> transformerless designs. I hope that it has 100mm faders suitable for
> riding gain. One wonders whether good faders can be made at this
> price-point. And that raises the questions of maintenance. Do
> channel circuits come on daughtercards, and do these permit any degree
> of customizing?
>
> I will be particularly interested in how this design bears out in
> practice, since it seems to fit many of my needs, and it promises to
> prove or disprove the claims that I've made here several times (and
> the counterclaims of others) that such a desk indeed could (and
> *should*) be built in this price range. As I understand it, the
> product will hit market at the end of this year, or Q1 of 2004.
>
> Luke

FWIW, the company that bought the rights and design of the Soundtracs
Project 8 is supposed to reintroduce that product some time soon, and
it will also be built in China to meet a lower price point.

At this stage, larger format analog mixers are beginning to look like
general aviation aircraft in the 1980's...there are virtually no new
ones, just the same used ones circulating on the market, so any new
designs or production would be welcome. Funny how digital consoles
seemed to have stalemated and that market is more or less tanked,
while you hear a lot about new analog mixers (albeit mostly small
format).

That's good news, let's hope it comes to fruition.

Analogeezer

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Those who have been reading here for the last several years have seen
> how often the question comes up: where can I get a high-quality mixer
> having 8-32 channels, with professional quality preamps, EQ, and a
> reasonable amount of routing, for a reasonable price? Whatever one
> thinks of the Mackie or the A&H MixWiz, these just doesn't fit the
> bill for many of us.

> The Toft Designs Reference Standard Mixer appears to consist in an
> 8x4x2 base unit, that can be combined with up to three 8-channel
> expansion modules, to form a mixer of from 8 to 32 channels. The
> design is based on the Toft 980 console and Toft's EQ. The target
> prices are ~$2000 for the base unit (which includes the master/monitor
> section), and and ~$900 for each 8-channel expansion. The unit will
> be manufactured in China.

I was talking to John Oram at NAMM and told him that he should make a
new version of the Trident 65 and sell it for $10,000. Who's standing
in line to get one? While I know that mentioning Toft and Oram in the
same message is asking for a flame war, both are actively working in
the area, and John was around to have his ear bent.

If you'd like something like that at around that price, tell him. If
you'd like something like that but only want to pay $3,000, then tell
Mackie and maybe they'll build a 32x8 in China.

The Toft console looked like the real deal, but (at least in the US)
it flopped. Probably it was the wrong time at the wrong price. But
Alan Hyatt has a good sense for matching products to the market, so
maybe under his guidance, this time around it'll work out. I'd like to
just see a single 24 or 32 channel unit rather than having to hook up
several pieces. And of course I'd want it to be modular-built for easy
repair. That's where the big money goes. I suppose that each expansion
unit could be considered a module, and at $900, it wouldn't hurt too
bad to have one as a spare.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[kelly mcguire]

Luke Kaven > wrote in message >...
> Those who have been reading here for the last several years have seen
> how often the question comes up: where can I get a high-quality mixer
> having 8-32 channels, with professional quality preamps, EQ, and a
> reasonable amount of routing, for a reasonable price? Whatever one
> thinks of the Mackie or the A&H MixWiz, these just doesn't fit the
> bill for many of us. Clearly there has been a big hole in the market.
> And there has been a lot of dispute here about just what one can
> manufacture in the under $3000 price range (for a 16x4x2 mixer) and
> about how big the demand is for such a thing, if it could be made.
>
> I have seen recently preliminary information on a plausible candidate
> to fit this need, and at the least, it looks like some of these
> questions may get answered in fact.
>
> Over at recording.org, Alan Hyatt moderates a designers' forum
> dedicated to some of his ambitious development programs, which include
> the popular Studio Projects series, and the highly-anticipated Stephen
> Paul microphone(s). Alan has been working with Malcolm Toft for quite
> a while now, and we've seen preamps, EQs, and channel boxes from that
> collaboration. But now it seems that Malcolm has been designing a
> "Reference Standard Mixer". Recently, Alan let leak some of the
> details of this project which I thought others would find interesting.
>
> The Toft Designs Reference Standard Mixer appears to consist in an
> 8x4x2 base unit, that can be combined with up to three 8-channel
> expansion modules, to form a mixer of from 8 to 32 channels. The
> design is based on the Toft 980 console and Toft's EQ. The target
> prices are ~$2000 for the base unit (which includes the master/monitor
> section), and and ~$900 for each 8-channel expansion. The unit will
> be manufactured in China.
>
> From the preliminary layout, it appears that each channel has (i) a
> mic preamp with mic-line switch, phantom switch, phase switch, (ii)
> 3-band EQ with low-cut, selectable high-low shelves, mid-sweep, and
> defeat, (iii) 4 aux busses with bus 2 being assignable pre-post fade,
> and busses 3-4 being combined into a stereo bus with a separate pan
> (presumably allowing monitor mix), and (iv) fader with pan, solo,
> mute, and bus assignment switches. Channel inputs are mic, line,
> tape-return, and channel outputs are direct out, insert. The master
> section has controls on the submix for folding in the aux busses,
> direct outs, inserts, aux sends, f/x returns, and on the stereo bus
> for master out, master insert, monitors, headphones, and 2-track
> return. There is a built-in talkback mic and slate key. Each units
> is individually rack-mountable in its current design, although
> expansion units may be bolted together to make a tabletop desk.
>
> The illustration of this is at http://www.toftaudio.com/afm8. I
> gather these elements are not fixed, although the circuits are
> designed and are presently going out for prototyping. I suspect that
> a few changes will be made, and suggestions are being entertained.
>
> First thoughts: This is a very promising design on paper, and the
> price-point is appealing. If it lives up to its promise, I think it
> stands to fare very well. I'd expect good sonics from Toft. It is
> hard to tell what design is being used for the mic preamps. Toft had
> been using the SSM2017 before it was discontinued, and I don't know
> what he has adopted for a substitute. I would expect a good EQ from
> Toft as well. I can't tell what the power supply is or how it is
> distributed among the base/expansion units, and this is obviously a
> key decision. I can't tell what interconnects are being used between
> base and expansion units, and would hope for all balanced
> interconnects. Among others things, I would hope to find a pad on the
> input, given how hot microphone signals have been on some recent
> transformerless designs. I hope that it has 100mm faders suitable for
> riding gain. One wonders whether good faders can be made at this
> price-point. And that raises the questions of maintenance. Do
> channel circuits come on daughtercards, and do these permit any degree
> of customizing?
>
> I will be particularly interested in how this design bears out in
> practice, since it seems to fit many of my needs, and it promises to
> prove or disprove the claims that I've made here several times (and
> the counterclaims of others) that such a desk indeed could (and
> *should*) be built in this price range. As I understand it, the
> product will hit market at the end of this year, or Q1 of 2004.
>
> Luke
Hmm, $3K for 16 channels. Made in China. seems like a boutique type
high end product so that seems odd. Am I missing something? Would it
have been a $5K priced mixer with US labor? How much is a Manley tube
16? I don't know if Allen Heath actually compares to Mackie but $3K
does get you an awfully nice mixer with sweet EQ. Thanks for the info
leak, I'll have to keep an eye out.
kelly

[Kurt Albershardt]

Luke Kaven wrote:
>
> 4 aux busses with bus 2 being assignable pre-post fade,
> and busses 3-4 being combined into a stereo bus with a separate pan
> (presumably allowing monitor mix)

Might want to add a couple more AUX buses if he wants to attract the
live market.


No mention of which outputs are balanced and which are unbalanced?

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> How is this different than the MTA modular system that was for sale a few
> years ago?

My guess is that it's not as modular, and it'll be built in China,
which I don't think Toft's recent consoles were.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )

[Luke Kaven]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Luke Kaven > wrote:
>>details of this project which I thought others would find interesting.
>>
>>The Toft Designs Reference Standard Mixer appears to consist in an
>>8x4x2 base unit, that can be combined with up to three 8-channel
>>expansion modules, to form a mixer of from 8 to 32 channels. The
>>design is based on the Toft 980 console and Toft's EQ. The target
>>prices are ~$2000 for the base unit (which includes the master/monitor
>>section), and and ~$900 for each 8-channel expansion. The unit will
>>be manufactured in China.
>
>How is this different than the MTA modular system that was for sale a few
>years ago?
>--scott

I might surmise, having owned one of those (the Intermix) for a short
time. I get the feeling that the intention is to create circuits that
are very similar if not the same in some places. The Intermix used
the "same circuits" as the MTA 980, and the new creation is supposed
to be similar to the MTA 980. The most obvious difference with the
Intermix is that the system is more monolithic. On the Intermix, the
mic pres, the EQ, the routing and panning, the faders, and the master
section were all separate modules. On the Reference Standard design,
all these things are integrated, with the exception that one buys
eight modules with the master sections, and then one can buy banks of
eight modules to expand on that.

More to the point of what Scott was driving at: The Intermix was
definitely a work in progress, in need of refinements, especially in
manufacturing and mechanical function. The boxes were flimsy, the
switches and pots felt flimsy, the circuit cards were attached with
non-locking ribbon cables, necessitating reseating upon delivery, and
the separate modules were connected with single-ended interconnects
carried by non-locking -- and necessarily short -- ribbon connectors.
Also, one needed a separate power supply for every two or three
modules. The constraints on layout for power and signal distribution
were inconvenient, and the grounding needed to be tended to
assiduously. For the new design to succeed, it will have to correct
these deficiencies. The new units need to be very sturdy (as sturdy
as a MizWizard for example), use something other than non-locking
ribbon cables, use balanced internals and interconnects, and have a
convenient power distribution scheme. As far as the sonics are
concerned, I had no objections to the quality of the sonics of the
Intermix. It had a dark sound, characteristic of its cousins.
Whether one liked that particular sonic coloring or not, the quality
of the sonics was up to professional standards without a doubt. The
sonic quality of the EQ was superb. If that can be replicated in the
Reference Standard, it would be a bargain. The one thing I am curious
about is what will be used in place of the SSM2017 preamp blocks used
on the other MTA desks, and how that will sound.

Luke

[Luke Kaven]

(Mike Rivers) wrote:
> writes:
>
[...]
>The Toft console looked like the real deal, but (at least in the US)
>it flopped. Probably it was the wrong time at the wrong price. But
>Alan Hyatt has a good sense for matching products to the market, so
>maybe under his guidance, this time around it'll work out. I'd like to
>just see a single 24 or 32 channel unit rather than having to hook up
>several pieces. And of course I'd want it to be modular-built for easy
>repair. That's where the big money goes. I suppose that each expansion
>unit could be considered a module, and at $900, it wouldn't hurt too
>bad to have one as a spare.

How they handle those module interconnects is going to be key. I hope
they get wise and use sturdy and secure -- and *balanced* --
interconnects for the bus connections. I also hope that the power is
clean and distributes well. I have no idea where the power supply is,
or how well it distributes among a variable number of modules.

For a lot of purposes, it does seem to be convenient (and economical)
to be able to use two module types to cover 8/16/24/32 channel
configurations, so long as the connections are sound. It would be
nice if the channel circuits were on daughtercards for easier
maintenance (and if you didn't have to pull a hundred nuts off to get
to them).

Luke

[Luke Kaven]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote:

>Luke Kaven wrote:
>>
>> 4 aux busses with bus 2 being assignable pre-post fade,
>> and busses 3-4 being combined into a stereo bus with a separate pan
>> (presumably allowing monitor mix)
>
>Might want to add a couple more AUX buses if he wants to attract the
>live market.

Though it seems it's got as much facility as the Mackie 1604. It's
got somewhat less than an A&H 12:4:2. Its a good question. At those
prices, one could afford to spend another $2k to bridge to another
master section, giving another four auxes on eight channels. That
wouldn't work for every situation, though you'd know better than I.

>No mention of which outputs are balanced and which are unbalanced?

Not that I could see. God, I hope it's all balanced. Though it looks
like the inserts are tip-send/ring-return, unless I missed something.

Luke

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Might want to add a couple more AUX buses if he wants to attract the
> live market.

There are (still, fortunately) a good number of live sound consoles
being made. It's the multitrack recording consoles that have become
scarce in the new market. Of course recording engineers needs aux
busses too, but they have different needs - a couple of stereo busses
that can be used for stereo cue mixes during tracking and for true
(stereo-in-stereo-out) stereo effects when mixing would be nice, as
well as those boring mono sends.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Luke Kaven > wrote:

> >No mention of which outputs are balanced and which are unbalanced?
>
> Not that I could see. God, I hope it's all balanced. Though it looks
> like the inserts are tip-send/ring-return, unless I missed something.

Unbalanced internals and associated noise issues were said to be a
problem with the bottom tier MTA console in wich I had a fleeting
interest. 924 was the model.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"