Tell me what a good mic is for Snare Drums

[rothman]

The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

[Rob Adelman]

rothman wrote:

> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

What are you using for a mic pre? I have tried a lot of microphones
there, and I ended up back with a 57. But I am using a very good preamp
for it. Makes a big difference.

-Rob

[Kurt Albershardt]

rothman wrote:

> The SM57's ain't cuttin it.

Try a Beyer M201.

Oh, and what preamp are you using?

[John Cafarella]

"rothman" > wrote in message
...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
>
Mics I've successfully tried:
Oktava MC012 with Hypercard capsule and 10db pad
MD421
EV 676
57

For a different flavour, try pointing the mic at the side shell of the drum.
Move it up and down to taste.
And don't use a Behringer/Mackie preamp.

[John Noll]

rothman wrote:
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
>
>
>

Beyer 201 with a good preamp.

--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

[Andy Peake]

"rothman" > wrote in message >...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

I think it's safe to say that the SM 57 has been used to record snare
drum on more rock, country and other styles of music where the snare
is part of a drum set than any other mic (by far). It is a dynamic mic
which accentuates the impact and the presence peak. There are other
mics that are used. I personally like the Sennheiser 421 sometimes.
I've had AKG 414s used on my kit (although the drummer better be a
damn good aim with his sticks). Pencil type condensors are used often
with brushes (451's & KM-84's or KM-184's). Believe it or not, Peavey
makes a great mic with some similarities to an SM-57 but with a little
less presence peak called a 45-i (I believe it may have a new model
number since I bought mine). I know there are a lot of engineers on
this newsgroup that have other favorites but a little more explanation
as to the faiure of the 57 would help. Is it the mic's fault or some
other factor (like a bad sounding snare or a wimpy drummer)?

What are you recording and what's missing from the SM-57?

[justin pizzoferrato]

beta57 with a neve 1064/a or the neotek elite pre seems to work fine for me.
sometimes its just too fat! haha
-justin

[John L Rice]

"rothman" > wrote in message
...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks


I've been using a Beyer M201 into a Martech MSS-10 pre for a while and I
like it a lot. The M201 also works well with a John Hardy M-1 pre or a
PreSonus M80 pre.


John L Rice

[Studio Froombosch]

John,

What Preamp would you suggest? V72?


--
Kind regards,
STUDIO FROOMBOSCH


Harrie Munnik
tel +31598-390107
www.studiofroombosch.com
sound recording

"John Noll" > schreef in bericht
...
> rothman wrote:
> > The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
> Beyer 201 with a good preamp.
>
> --
> John Noll
> Retromedia Sound Studios
> Red Bank, NJ 07701
>
> Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631
>
> http://www.retromedia.net
>

[Kris Singh]

If you can't make a SM57 work, then change what it is going to and the
postion you have the mic on the snare. There is no reason why you
can't get a great snare sound with the SM57. Possible problems....

1) The Snare is tuned poorly or is not the right snare for the track
2) The mic is not positioned well
3) The chain you are using does not work in this instance

I would suggest starting with just the mic in to a the mic pre and
then direct to what ever you are recording to. When you get that
close, add a compressor and EQ. Then try to find the magic. If you
have access to a 1176 it is the best compressor on a snare. Bar none.
Good luck!!!-Kris





"John L Rice" > wrote in message >...
> "rothman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
>
>
> I've been using a Beyer M201 into a Martech MSS-10 pre for a while and I
> like it a lot. The M201 also works well with a John Hardy M-1 pre or a
> PreSonus M80 pre.
>
>
> John L Rice
>

[Scott Dorsey]

rothman > wrote:
>The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

Why not?

Is it a matter of it not being bright enough, or a matter of it picking up
too much other stuff so that the other drums sound worse when you bring the
snare up?

Have you tried miking from the bottom and moving the mike in and out?

The EV N/D 468 and Sennheiser 441 are much tighter and will have a somewhat
more crisp sound without that presence peak. That might not be what you
want, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jeff Deff]

The fact that SM57 is always used to record snare is reason enough NOT
to use it, if you ask me.
Try something different! I've had my snare miced with one of the
Earthworks mics and it sounded great. Also, one of those new Shure
KSM small diaphragms with the pad on, in cardiod, sounded killer. The
Beyer M201 is always good. I like to use it an inch or two off of the
side, pointing at the shell. If you haven't tried this yet do it.
I've used a Beyerdynamic M88 on a dry, meaty snare and it sounded
fantastic.
Experiment and have fun!

[Gabe Nahshon]

"rothman" > wrote in message >...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

Try a Beta 57A fir a different flavor. Note that I am referring to
the A model not the regular beta 57. Also, a mic on the bottom of the
snare, reversed in polarity to the top snare mic, can be good too.

Gabe

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

rothman > wrote:

> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

The problem probably has more to do with where you're putting the SM57
than the fact that it's an SM57. You might be putting it in the wrong
spot on the wrong snare (being hit by the wrong drummer) in the wrong
room, on the other end of a mic cable from the wrong preamp. Or maybe
the mix you're trying to fit it into is wrong. The ideal snare track
varies with context a whole lot more than it varies with mic selection.

ulysses

[BlacklineMusic]

>The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

First off, when I use 57s, I try to position them not TOO close to the actual
drum. You have to understand, the snare from one inch of the skin won't sound
like it does to your pretty ears which are about two feet away. Use the close
mic snare for impact of the crack, don't try to make it your whole snare sound.
Try setting up a mic about three feet over the snare, like a third overhead.
Now gate that mic, but trigger the gate off the close snare mic... get it? You
can compress that mic too to make it pop. Also, don't be afraid to eq out some
of the mucky LOW MIDS. Cut out all the 400 and then slowly bring it back up
till it sounds right. Try all this.
Steve

[area242]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> rothman > wrote:
> >The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
>
> Why not?
>
> Is it a matter of it not being bright enough, or a matter of it picking up
> too much other stuff so that the other drums sound worse when you bring
the
> snare up?
>
> Have you tried miking from the bottom and moving the mike in and out?
>
> The EV N/D 468 and Sennheiser 441 are much tighter and will have a
somewhat
> more crisp sound without that presence peak. That might not be what you
> want, though.

I agree, knowing specifically what it is about the sound you're unhappy with
would help us know better what to suggest.
Also, the Senn-441 is a GREAT mic for snare (depending on the type of snare
and the sound you're going for). I've used that several times and been very
pleased.
Another mic to try is the Shure-SM98...It's an awesome mic for toms...and
can be used to get a nice snare sound...again, depending on what you're
going for.

[WillStG]

< >

<<< rothman > wrote:
The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks >>>

< ... knowing specifically what it is about the sound you're unhappy with would
help us know better what to suggest.
Also, the Senn-441 is a GREAT mic for snare (depending on the type of snare and
the sound you're going for). >

Yep - like if I want the snare to "cut" more, if it has a metal shell I
mic the side of the snare shell. The Senn. MD431 is a nice mic for snare as
well, somewhat similar to the 441 but cheaper. Positioning the overheads to
cover the whole kit and adding the snare mic in under just as a "spot" mic
might be another approach to try, assuming the kit doesn't suck in the first
place.

<< Another mic to try is the Shure-SM98.. >>

I used to try that as an undersnare mic, but I found it didn't really add
much for me.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox And Friends/Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> When someone says a sound "isn't cutting it" that could mean SO many things.

Probably it's the drummer that isn't cutting it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Darrell Klein]

"rothman" > wrote in message >...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks

Side mic on a metal snare: MXL 603s w/ hihat in the null.

[Garthrr]

In article >, Kurt Albershardt
> writes:

>And I'm surprised nobody's mentioned tuning the drum yet (or did I miss
>that?)

Thats of course a good idea but I think this thread raises the question of what
one should do when faced with the situation that many of us come up against all
the time.
That being one where the drummer isn't knowledgable and doesnt know how to get
a good sound from the drum either through tuning or in how he hits them. Some
would say "get a different drummer" but in some cases the drummer _is_ the
client. One case from my studio is a drummer that can't tune the drums, doesn't
hit them well and is also the bandleader and producer. What are ya gonna do?

I have suggested bringing in third party to help get sounds but as of yet this
hasnt happened. So as the engineer, I am left to try to squeeze the most I can
out of what I'm given. With this particular drummer, who records at my place a
lot, I've tried dozens of mics, placements and unsuccesful persuasion. It comes
down to how well I can airbrush the picture. I just keep experimenting and once
in a while I learn something that helps but its never even close to recording a
great drummer who is knowledgable about tuning and heads.

With a good drummer you can almost always count on a 57 to sound very good but
with bad players you have to try to find a mic that gets the most out of the
current situation. Some mics I've had good luck on in these situations are the
AT23HE, Beyer M201, Audix OM5 vocal mic and Sennheiser ND168. I have to say
that the M201 is a good bet.
Best of luck,
Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[Fill X]

I didn't catch why the sm57 wasn't cutting it. A LOT of mics can work on a
snare drum but before I switched mics, I'd move the mic around a lot. On snare
drums it's usually a placement issue or the drum or the player. The
microphone is usually the last problem.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Roger W. Norman]

I'd have to say that if you can't get a usable sound with a 57 on a snare,
then moving to another mic isn't going to change anything. Besides the
placement possibilities, I'd seriously look at the heads (don't forget about
the snare head), the bearing edges (a nice clean edge and rub some parafin
on it), the tuning and the snares themselves (these do need replacing as
they lose tension all by themselves). If you KNOW that you like the sound
of the snare, then move around the snare and LISTEN, placing the mic in the
position you like the sound the most. But I'd guess that you're really
hearing what the snare sounds like a lot more than hearing a fault with the
57 in doing the recording. I realize that it's your call, but I'd damned
sure work all possibilities out before buying a mic to replace the 57. It's
ubiquitious because it works in almost any circumstance you put it in. Try
a 57 in both the top and bottom positions, making certain to take the bottom
mic and flipping polarity on it (pin 3 hot), mix to taste.

Then again, like JnyVee says, the last mic in the cabinet is always exactly
the right mic, so try all that you have. Buy equipment when you KNOW you
need it, not when something doesn't sound right. It's a philosophy that
will save you a bundle.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"rothman" > wrote in message
...
> The SM57's ain't cuttin it. Thanks
>
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

It's a flawed philosophy, like saying that most people buying a Dodge
Caravan is a good reason to buy some other minivan. The concept that most
practiced engineers can get good sound from a 57 says that a 57 can do the
job. To look at it any other way actually says one must still somewhat be
in their youth and have a rebellious streak, which isn't bad, but unless one
has a REAL reason, it's not noteworthy. We don't fight the good fight by
using things that don't work. Making an arbitrary decision that a 57 is
"good enough" is a disservice to any client, while making the decision that
a 57 works is a service to any client.

Now I'm not saying that a 57, or any mic, is the absolute answer. I'm just
saying that it gets used because it does the job. Like miking a guitar amp.
A 57 works, a 421 works, lots of mics work. Just because one uses a 57
doesn't make it a bad choice, just as using a 421 doesn't necessarily make
it a good choice. They are just different choices. Offering other mics as
a "solution" isn't really the answer IMHO, because if one can't get a good
snare sound with a 57 then moving to a $500 mic or a $1000 pre isn't really
going to change anything. If the snare sounds right in the room the way
it's being played, a 57 can capture it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Jeff Deff" > wrote in message
om...
> The fact that SM57 is always used to record snare is reason enough NOT
> to use it, if you ask me.
> Try something different! I've had my snare miced with one of the
> Earthworks mics and it sounded great. Also, one of those new Shure
> KSM small diaphragms with the pad on, in cardiod, sounded killer. The
> Beyer M201 is always good. I like to use it an inch or two off of the
> side, pointing at the shell. If you haven't tried this yet do it.
> I've used a Beyerdynamic M88 on a dry, meaty snare and it sounded
> fantastic.
> Experiment and have fun!

[Roger W. Norman]

I did, but not before you asked the question. Just hadn't read this far
down in the thread yet.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Kurt Albershardt" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rivers wrote:
> > In article >
writes:
> >
> >>When someone says a sound "isn't cutting it" that could mean SO many
things.
> >
> > Probably it's the drummer that isn't cutting it.
>
> And I'm surprised nobody's mentioned tuning the drum yet (or did I miss
> that?)
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

In that case, I like Steve's (BlacklineMusic) suggestion about a close mic
triggering a gated mic a little farther away. Hopefully it will cut out a
lot of hat overspill, but that's always a problem anyway. And if one can't
get a good sound with a close mic, perhaps the kit wants to be miked another
way, like decent overheads, a kick and a kit mic about 4' out in front.
This is my favorite way to mic a decent player.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Garthrr" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurt Albershardt
> > writes:
>
> >And I'm surprised nobody's mentioned tuning the drum yet (or did I miss
> >that?)
>
> Thats of course a good idea but I think this thread raises the question of
what
> one should do when faced with the situation that many of us come up
against all
> the time.
> That being one where the drummer isn't knowledgable and doesnt know how to
get
> a good sound from the drum either through tuning or in how he hits them.
Some
> would say "get a different drummer" but in some cases the drummer _is_ the
> client. One case from my studio is a drummer that can't tune the drums,
doesn't
> hit them well and is also the bandleader and producer. What are ya gonna
do?
>
> I have suggested bringing in third party to help get sounds but as of yet
this
> hasnt happened. So as the engineer, I am left to try to squeeze the most I
can
> out of what I'm given. With this particular drummer, who records at my
place a
> lot, I've tried dozens of mics, placements and unsuccesful persuasion. It
comes
> down to how well I can airbrush the picture. I just keep experimenting and
once
> in a while I learn something that helps but its never even close to
recording a
> great drummer who is knowledgable about tuning and heads.
>
> With a good drummer you can almost always count on a 57 to sound very good
but
> with bad players you have to try to find a mic that gets the most out of
the
> current situation. Some mics I've had good luck on in these situations are
the
> AT23HE, Beyer M201, Audix OM5 vocal mic and Sennheiser ND168. I have to
say
> that the M201 is a good bet.
> Best of luck,
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> > Probably it's the drummer that isn't cutting it.

> And I'm surprised nobody's mentioned tuning the drum yet (or did I miss
> that?)

That's part of the drummer "cutting it". Of course he should have his
drums in good shape and have the proper drums and setup for the song.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[EganMedia]

>I'd have to say that if you can't get a usable sound with a 57 on a snare,
>then moving to another mic isn't going to change anything.

I disagree wholeheartedly. That's like saying if you can't get a good vocal
sound with a U47, changing mics won't make a difference. Different drums
sound different from one another. I typically use a 57, a 441, or a 414 in fig
8 for snare. I choose the mic depending the drum, the drummer and the song.
Someimes on very a deep snare drum I'll also mic the bottom head with one of
the aforementioned mics, or sometimes a different mic. It really depnds on the
source and the desired sound.




Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

[Kurt Albershardt]

Garthrr wrote:
>
> With a good drummer you can almost always count on a 57 to sound very good


Roger W. Norman wrote:
> I'd have to say that if you can't get a usable sound with a 57 on a
> snare, then moving to another mic isn't going to change anything.


OK, I guess it depends on how you define "useable." Often, the presence
peak of a 57 (and so many other "preformance" mics) is the last thing
I'm looking for in a recording. I'd rather start with neutral and add
color later if needed.

[Carey Carlan]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote in
:

> OK, I guess it depends on how you define "useable." Often, the
> presence peak of a 57 (and so many other "preformance" mics) is the
> last thing I'm looking for in a recording. I'd rather start with
> neutral and add color later if needed.

I'm not a fan of the 57 either, but when the client brings his own I use
it. Did a session with guitar just last night with a 57 close and an NT-2
back. The mix made a pleasing sound. What I find is that while it's not
flat, the "57 sound" is what people expect to hear.

[Roger W. Norman]

I took "ain't cuttin it" to mean that he believed it was the 57's fault. If
it's not the mic he wants to use, I can see that, but then I'd assume that
he had other mics with which to make that judgement. I just see a benefit
to learning to use what you have before you try to define what you want, and
definitely waiting to buy something until you can determine you need to buy
it. Being broke had some benefits for me from once upon a time. Now I
don't buy anything until I have a complete three page justification report
typed out in triplicate and signed by my tax lady! <g> And even then I
might have to demonstrate ALL the other equipment's inability to fill the
job! <g> My CFO is tough.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Kurt Albershardt" > wrote in message
...
> Garthrr wrote:
> >
> > With a good drummer you can almost always count on a 57 to sound very
good
>
>
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
> > I'd have to say that if you can't get a usable sound with a 57 on a
> > snare, then moving to another mic isn't going to change anything.
>
>
> OK, I guess it depends on how you define "useable." Often, the presence
> peak of a 57 (and so many other "preformance" mics) is the last thing
> I'm looking for in a recording. I'd rather start with neutral and add
> color later if needed.
>
>
>

[Kurt Albershardt]

Roger W. Norman wrote:
> I took "ain't cuttin it" to mean that he believed it was the 57's fault. If
> it's not the mic he wants to use, I can see that, but then I'd assume that
> he had other mics with which to make that judgement. I just see a benefit
> to learning to use what you have before you try to define what you want, and
> definitely waiting to buy something until you can determine you need to buy
> it.


I may have come off a little harsh on that one.

> Often, the presence peak of a 57 (and so many other "preformance"
mics) is the last thing I'm looking for in a recording.

Should probably have been followed by "and other times it's just what
I'm after."



I am regularly (re)surprised at the difference between todays' average
console preamps and a good outboard when paired an SM-57. Thanks, Hank
& Harvey for that little gem.

[Roger W. Norman]

I guess I've been somewhat lucky in that the Solo's mic pres seem to be very
nice indeed, as do the Crest's, so throwing up a 57 doesn't cause me any
major concern, although it's not the norm. About 4 years ago I did do an
acoustic album (well, there was an electric guitar and my piano, but..) and
used 57s on both the picked dulcimer and the harmonica and they did fine.
I've used 57s on guitar amps for a lifetime and never had any major
complaints although today I might well make a different choice, and have
even had to force a pair into play as overheads on a club gig where I didn't
want to take the condensers.

But that was what my post was really about. Having choices based on knowing
what one would want, not on the concept of something being flawed. I had
assumed that one would make choices from knowledge of what those choices
would do to the recording, and also that the original poster was making an
initial mistake that it's the equipment that makes the recording. It may be
the equipment making the recording, but it's the engineer's knowledge that
makes the recording work.

Just preaching to the choir without a license.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Kurt Albershardt" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
> > I took "ain't cuttin it" to mean that he believed it was the 57's fault.
If
> > it's not the mic he wants to use, I can see that, but then I'd assume
that
> > he had other mics with which to make that judgement. I just see a
benefit
> > to learning to use what you have before you try to define what you want,
and
> > definitely waiting to buy something until you can determine you need to
buy
> > it.
>
>
> I may have come off a little harsh on that one.
>
> > Often, the presence peak of a 57 (and so many other "preformance"
> mics) is the last thing I'm looking for in a recording.
>
> Should probably have been followed by "and other times it's just what
> I'm after."
>
>
>
> I am regularly (re)surprised at the difference between todays' average
> console preamps and a good outboard when paired an SM-57. Thanks, Hank
> & Harvey for that little gem.
>
>
>