Re: TONE DEAF

[TJ Hertz]

ChrisCoaster wrote:
> I've heard this phrase used in musical and social circles. Supposedly
> it implies that when someone sings along, RE, to the radio, they are
> off key by some amount.
>
> Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
> can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
> people.
>
> -ChrisCoaster
>
> PS I'm not tone deaf AFAIK.

I think it's more colloquial than technical. Tone deaf in my book means the
person is unmusical, or just can't sing. I suppose that technically it would
mean that the person can't recognise pitches and sing them, or can't hear
when something is out of tune.

--
TJ Hertz
http://www.whatyourenot.com

[Nathan Higgins]

People who are tone deaf can't match or differentiate between notes and even
flats and sharps, eg. it's easy to match C to a higher or lower octave, but
some people find it really hard. This means differences in pitch are hard to
detect, changing a tone slighly either up or down could be indetectable for
someone who is tone deaf. I'm not sure how much it impacts people who can't
sing, you could argue they can't match the note mentally, or simply they
can't control the voicebox very well.

>Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
>can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
>people.

Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
would help.

An example of a famous tone deaf singer is Florence Foster who said 'some
may say that i couldn't sing, but no one can say i didn't sing'.


--
Nathan D Higgins

Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
Hosting: http://www.link9.net
WAP: http://wap.link9.net
[dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net

[Nathan Higgins]

A usefull url:
http://www-psychology.concordia.ca/fac/penhune/articles/Neuron.pdf

--
Nathan D Higgins

Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
Hosting: http://www.link9.net
WAP: http://wap.link9.net
[dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net

[Nathan Higgins]

Can i also add the same applies to people who can't keep a beat.

I had a thought about the the subject of singing, i would imagine there are
two groups, one group who are tone deaf, and the other group who aren't tone
deaf but can't control their voicebox aswel as they could. The majority of
the later would be able to sing after having singing lessons, but the tone
deaf group probably stand a very small chance of getting anywhere (through
no fault of their own!) This is my opinion not fact.

--
Nathan D Higgins

Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
Hosting: http://www.link9.net
WAP: http://wap.link9.net
[dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net

[Nathan Higgins]

Paul Dito wrote:
> Ask a dozen people to pace off 100 feet and you'll get a dozen
> different distances as a result....ask a dozen people to sing an "A"
> then measure the actual frequency.......
>
> so your analogy is a good one....

Not really, you can learn howto estimate how long 1 ft is (just like i used
to measure lengths of fibre optic cabling to 1m and was nearly bang on -
using an armslength as the guide). Most people can learn howto sing, whereas
someone who is tone deaf can learn howto estimate length but couldn't sing
(to what extent is variable). This is not a case of the person hasn't learnt
howto to sing, more a case of would find it extrememly difficult, if not
impossible. You will be surprised the amount of people who could sing if
they chose to practice (even singing in the shower, the reverb always helps
:p), some people are naturally talented and were lucky to find their talent,
if everyone started singing at a young age the amount of superb singers
would be fantastic. I have the figure 12% in my head for total percentage of
white people who are tone deaf and don't really have much hope in becoming a
singer, but as for the rest - have a go!
Notice how i stated white people, this is not me being racist at all, study
has been done into the difference in musical ability (pitch recognition and
rythum) of black and white people. Google for more info.

--
Nathan D Higgins

Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
Hosting: http://www.link9.net
WAP: http://wap.link9.net
[dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net

[Scott Dorsey]

ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>
>Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
>can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
>people.

A friend of mine has really good relative pitch. She can hear the
difference between a 440 Hz note and a 440.5 Hz note.

I have okay relative pitch. I can sure hear the difference between
a 440 Hz note and a 443 Hz note.

My friend Henry is tone deaf. He can't hear the difference between
a 440 Hz note and a 540 Hz note.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark T. Wieczorek]

"Nathan Higgins" -spam> wrote in
:

> Not really, you can learn howto estimate how long 1 ft is (just like i
> used to measure lengths of fibre optic cabling to 1m and was nearly
> bang on - using an armslength as the guide).

Now hold on... First of all, this is just math, and second of all, you have
a constant reference available to you at all times in the form of your arm.
This is not like music - you don't carry around with you an "A440" by which
you can measure the distance to other notes.

Regards,
Mark

--
http://www.marktaw.com/

http://www.prosoundreview.com/
User reviews of pro audio gear

[James Boyk]

Mark T. Wieczorek wrote:
> ...you don't carry around with you an "A440" by which you can measure the distance to other notes.

I don't; but some people do, namely, those w/ absolute pitch. I had a
teacher whose pitch was *so* accurate that he could and did concert-tune
his harpsichord CHROMATICALLY upward from the bottom note. I can hardly
believe this as I write it; but I was there, I saw it, I heard it; and
it was fine. George Lucktenberg was his name; and he was also a fine
musicians and player of both piano and harpsichord.

James Boyk

[Charles Nicklow]

I think it means thast a tone deaf person can't reproduce an accurrate tone
relative to a pitch they've heard.
"ChrisCoaster" > wrote in message
om...
> I've heard this phrase used in musical and social circles. Supposedly
> it implies that when someone sings along, RE, to the radio, they are
> off key by some amount.
>
> Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
> can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
> people.
>
> -ChrisCoaster
>
> PS I'm not tone deaf AFAIK.

[M Temperton]

I've also heard that people described as 'tone deaf' also have difficulty
keeping time (rhythmically)
"Nathan Higgins" -spam> wrote in message
...
> Can i also add the same applies to people who can't keep a beat.
>
> I had a thought about the the subject of singing, i would imagine there
are
> two groups, one group who are tone deaf, and the other group who aren't
tone
> deaf but can't control their voicebox aswel as they could. The majority of
> the later would be able to sing after having singing lessons, but the tone
> deaf group probably stand a very small chance of getting anywhere (through
> no fault of their own!) This is my opinion not fact.
>
> --
> Nathan D Higgins
>
> Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
> Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
> Hosting: http://www.link9.net
> WAP: http://wap.link9.net
> [dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
>
>

[ChrisCoaster]

"Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
following(!)
>
> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
> would help.

_______________
Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!

Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
these two respects.

-CC

[ChrisCoaster]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> >
> >Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
> >can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
> >people.
>
> A friend of mine has really good relative pitch. She can hear the
> difference between a 440 Hz note and a 440.5 Hz note.
>
> I have okay relative pitch. I can sure hear the difference between
> a 440 Hz note and a 443 Hz note.
>
> My friend Henry is tone deaf. He can't hear the difference between
> a 440 Hz note and a 540 Hz note.
> --scott

_______________
FYI I just used A-440 as an example. C-256 or 512 could also have
worked.
Interesting discussion though, as I am trying to teach myself to know
what keys are being played on music I listen to.


-ChrisCoaster

[James Boyk]

ChrisCoaster wrote:
> ...I am trying to teach myself to know what keys are being played on music I listen to.

More power to you; but training yourself to have perfect pitch--which is
what you're trying to do--is very difficult. Much easier *and* much more
important is to learn good relative pitch, which you do through a basic
musicianship course at a local college (being sure it's "ear-oriented")
or with an in-tune piano and a good introductory music text.

James Boyk

[Aaron C Borgman]

ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> "Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
> following(!)
>>
>> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
>> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
>> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
>> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
>> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
>> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
>> would help.

> _______________
> Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!

> Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
> in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
> discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
> bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
> weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
> light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
> VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
> these two respects.

You are most likely red-green deficient. It is by far the most common form
of color-blindness (affects ~10% men and .5% of women) and is genetic,
sometimes skipping a generation. It is likely that one of your grandfathers
also has this condition. True color-blindness (inability to distinguish any
color) is actually extremely rare.

--
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

RA2-4-D15
phone: 971-214-8380

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's

[James Boyk]

Mark T. Wieczorek wrote:
> As far as I know, you can't be told "your foot is 8 inches long" and from then on you have that knowledge.

You mean "can," I believe.


> In other words, there's nothing external on your body that generates pitch.
> These methods still mostly rely on something external to the mind - some
> sort of physical comparison device.

I don't know why you say this. I have no idea if it's true. There are
many kinds of perfect pitch; some people do gesture as though playing
their 'cello or 'horn on a certain note, and then they hear that note;
conversely, some people can identify pitches played on 'cello if they
play 'cello, or horn if ditto, and not on other instruments. But some
people don't appear to need any such kinesthetic or habitual assistance.
You ask them to sing a B-flat and they just sing a B-flat. You play an
A# and they identify it. Maybe there's some subtle way in which they are
using something external to their mind, but they don't think they are
and it doesn't look as though they are. Of course, in a certain sense
*something* was external when they first learned, because the names of
the notes--and the pitch reference--are arbitrary. That A# could just as
well be called "Fish-lips"; so they did have to learn the names of
things at some point. But that's different from learning the things
themselves.



> Don't get me wrong, I can position my fingers around 3" apart and expect to
> be accurate, but I can't sing an A440 for the life of me, nor could I even
> recognize it if someone played it and then played a random note.

Sure. Most of us can't either. Why let it bother you? It's not
important. It won't at all hamper your becoming the best possible musician.

James Boyk

[WillStG]

<< (Scott Dorsey) >>
<< A friend of mine has really good relative pitch. She can hear the
difference between a 440 Hz note and a 440.5 Hz note.

I have okay relative pitch. I can sure hear the difference between a 440 Hz
note and a 443 Hz note. >>

There are also people who can hear the difference, but to reproduce or
match a note they are hearing with their voice is problematic. And the melody
one's singing is only sometimes doubled by another instrument, so it's a
question of knowing where the rest of the scale is. Which leads me to ...

We use an even tempered scale in Western music. It's a construct. It
really is an arbitrary assignment of vibrational values, and how is there
anything "natural" or "intrinsic" within our being genetically or biologically
to indicate where each pitch in a scale is when you compromise the harmonics of
the fundamental as the equal tempered system does? Well ok, maybe you can
inherit some ancestors' training, but my thinking is somebody sometime had to
_learn_ to sing an even tempered scale.

Intrinsically maybe a pythagorian scale or something which is truer
harmonically is more natural to our inner biology, but must be unlearned and
the equal tempered system learned. Then unlearned of course, for performance
sake. First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain then there is, and
so it goes...

Of course, real musicians and the "Masters" will control the nuances of
pitch at will, and use the microtonal differences to good effect.

Ok, I'm rambling...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox And Friends/Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[James Boyk]

WillStG wrote:
> We use an even tempered scale in Western music.

Excuse me, but NO WE DON'T USE AN EVEN-TEMPERED SCALE IN WESTERN MUSIC.
Yes, the piano uses it; and yes, if someone is playing with piano,
they're using it too, though not necessarily on every interval they
play. But just listen to any ensemble without piano and you will not
hear equal-temperament. Listen to a capella singing groups and you will
not hear equal temperament.

James Boyk

[WillStG]

<< James Boyk >>
<< Excuse me, but NO WE DON'T USE AN EVEN-TEMPERED SCALE IN WESTERN MUSIC.
Yes, the piano uses it; and yes, if someone is playing with piano,
they're using it too, though not necessarily on every interval they play. But
just listen to any ensemble without piano and you will not hear
equal-temperament >>

Ummm - did I step on your foot or something Mr. Boyk? < g > I wasn't
talking about 43 or 72 notes to the octave, after all. Would you say when I
have played guitar with a full orchestra, my guitar chords forced a different
interpretation of pitch on the whole ensemble? ( Gee, and I used a tuner
and everything... )

Perhaps referencing the "Just Tuning" system would have been a better
example. My Guitars are tuned equal tempered, and I had to learn to tune them
that way, but many guitarists like to flatten the third in the key they are
playing in/chording after using a tuner because "just intonation" sounds more
correct to them, more correct harmonically. That's pretty good for folk music
or music that requires open chord voicings IME, but not for music where you
change keys and positions a lot like jazz, or for dealing with the unexpected,
like when you play with a room full of cats you have never played with before
on a clubdate or something.

I think there are two good lessons here however; one that playing
harmoniously and well with others requires some compromise, and the other that
the physical world we live in is not a perfect one.

So what exactly is the pitch of a can of worms popping open? < g >

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox And Friends/Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[chris berbaum]

"Mark T. Wieczorek" > wrote in message
...
> James Boyk > wrote in
> :
>
> >> ...you don't carry around with you an "A440" by which you can measure
> >> the distance to other notes.
> >
> > I don't; but some people do, namely, those w/ absolute pitch. I had a
> > teacher whose pitch was *so* accurate that he could and did
> > concert-tune his harpsichord CHROMATICALLY upward from the bottom
> > note. I can hardly believe this as I write it; but I was there, I saw
> > it, I heard it; and it was fine. George Lucktenberg was his name; and
> > he was also a fine musicians and player of both piano and harpsichord.
>
> Yeah, but it's not something you can have someone else tatoo on your body,
> like you can a ruler. Nor is it like astronomy where 6 degrees is the
width
> of your thumb or whatever. As far as I know, you can't be told "your foot
> is 8 inches long" and from then on you have that knowledge.
>
> In other words, there's nothing external on your body that generates
pitch.
> These methods still mostly rely on something external to the mind - some
> sort of physical comparison device.

What's the lowest note you can sing? What's the highest note you can sing?
Well, so, it changes from week-to-week maybe, but on any given day, unless
you're a real singer with an extended range, it's probably pretty stable.
And well, so, it's not a "true" note, but probably something that's some
number of cents flat from a true note. But between knowing what those two
are, you could discern some pitch level (tonic, fifth, etc.) of a piece
that's playing. Now you've got a key, ... home free. :) chris b.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I can position my fingers around 3" apart and expect
to
> be accurate, but I can't sing an A440 for the life of me, nor could I even
> recognize it if someone played it and then played a random note.
>
> I just don't think these comparisons are valid.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
> --
> http://www.marktaw.com/
>
> http://www.prosoundreview.com/
> User reviews of pro audio gear

[Jay Kadis]

In article > "Paul Dito"
> writes:
> Ask a dozen people to pace off 100 feet and you'll get a dozen different
> distances as a result....ask a dozen people to sing an "A" then measure the
> actual frequency.......
>
> so your analogy is a good one....
>

Maybe not as good as you think.

Read the paper "Absolute memory for musical pitch: Evidence from the production
of learned melodies" by Dan Levitin:

http://ww2.mcgill.ca/psychology/levitin/pitch.html

While this paper doesn't test subjects' ability to hit an arbitrary pitch, it
demonstrates a striking tendency to sing a song in the same pitch in which it
was originally heard.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[squeeziechum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a physical reason why some
people are tone deaf. The cochlea of the ear is a wound up cone-shaped
structure, and on it's inner surface are millions of tiny cilia (hairs) that
vibrate and send signals to the brain which interprets the shaking hairs as
sound. Different pitches of sound vibrate hairs at different distances
along the length of the cone. If the cochlea has a good cone shape, and is
wide at the base, the lucky person probably has very good pitch (or at least
the innate ability). If the cochlea is a bit misshapen and/or has a narrow
base, then cilia in a wider area will vibrate to a particular frequency and
the brain has trouble distinguishing between nearby tones.
An interesting thought -- if the cochlea has a good shape except in one
area, then you could conceivably have tone deafness only in a certain range
of frequencies. I've never heard of this but I don't see why it couldn't
occur. On a personal note (ha, which one), I can't tell when a guitar is
out of tune. After a musician tunes up in the middle of their set, I can't
tell any difference. Don't worry, I don't make a living from recording.

Phil
looking and sounding sharp

"ChrisCoaster" > wrote in message
om...
> I've heard this phrase used in musical and social circles. Supposedly
> it implies that when someone sings along, RE, to the radio, they are
> off key by some amount.
>
> Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
> can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
> people.
>
> -ChrisCoaster
>
> PS I'm not tone deaf AFAIK.

[James Boyk]

Do you have a citation to the literature supporting your notion of what
makes for tone-deafness? I imagine that yes, some people have
physiological defects which makes them tone-deaf; but I don't know what
physical form the defect(s) might take. Anyway, I suggest this is rare!
I've had hundreds of students in my science/music course over the years,
for instance; and many said they couldn't carry a tune; but I can't
offhand think of any whose sense of pitch didn't improve rather quickly
with little training. There's no music training in most USA school
systems now; so it's not surprising that many ears don't trained. (In
terms of the ancient Greek idea of the three crucial subjects--rhetoric,
math and music--most USA schools score 0 for 3.)

I bet that your ear for guitar tuning could be improved rather quickly.
See any teacher of "ear-training."

James Boyk

[Bob Cain]

"Mark T. Wieczorek" wrote:
>
> In other words, there's nothing external on your body that generates pitch.
> These methods still mostly rely on something external to the mind - some
> sort of physical comparison device.

But there is a particular locus of hair cells in one's
cochlea that are maximally stimulated by a particular tone.
A tuning fork, so to speak, with particular neurons
attached. It shouldn't be too surprising that some people
can make absolute associations with stimuli of specific loci
and that some singers can make the same kind of association
with specific vocal cord tensions and willfully direct them
to that tension.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bill Ruys]

For an electronic device to detect pitch, it must have a reference
oscillator. I have always theorized that the brain is similar in the way it
works. This would explain why people who are tone deaf may also have
trouble keeping beat.

Bill.
"M Temperton" > wrote in message
...
> I've also heard that people described as 'tone deaf' also have difficulty
> keeping time (rhythmically)
> "Nathan Higgins" -spam> wrote in message
> ...
> > Can i also add the same applies to people who can't keep a beat.
> >
> > I had a thought about the the subject of singing, i would imagine there
> are
> > two groups, one group who are tone deaf, and the other group who aren't
> tone
> > deaf but can't control their voicebox aswel as they could. The majority
of
> > the later would be able to sing after having singing lessons, but the
tone
> > deaf group probably stand a very small chance of getting anywhere
(through
> > no fault of their own!) This is my opinion not fact.
> >
> > --
> > Nathan D Higgins
> >
> > Website: http://nathan.link9.net/
> > Email: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
> > Hosting: http://www.link9.net
> > WAP: http://wap.link9.net
> > [dot]NET: nathan[at]link9[dot]net
> >
> >
>
>

[P Stamler]

Just to throw in a wrinkle: It was reported about two years ago that among
people who grow up speaking tonal languages (such as Chinese or Vietnamese) the
incidence of perfect pitch is significantly higher than among people who grow
up speaking non-tonal languages. The theory is that the ability is one many
people are born with, but it is extirpated in childhood among most people who
don't use it on a day-to-day basis.

Peace,
Paul

[ChrisCoaster]

Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> > "Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
> > following(!)
> >>
> >> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
> >> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
> >> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
> >> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
> >> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
> >> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
> >> would help.
>
> > _______________
> > Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!
>
> > Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
> > in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
> > discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
> > bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
> > weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
> > light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
> > VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
> > these two respects.
>
> You are most likely red-green deficient. It is by far the most common form
> of color-blindness (affects ~10% men and .5% of women) and is genetic,
> sometimes skipping a generation. It is likely that one of your grandfathers
> also has this condition. True color-blindness (inability to distinguish any
> color) is actually extremely rare.
_____________________________
Can you please explain that? The way my simple mind works, I presume
it to mean I should get into lots of wrecks - I couldn't distinguish
red & green traffic signals! My problem is nevertheless with navy blue
and black items of clothing.

Please straighten me out!

-CC

[squeeziechum]

Sorry, no citation, which is why I started with "correct me if I'm wrong".
Wish I had one, because I know this wasn't my idea. I remember it coming
from a source more authoritative than I (okay, that's not saying much, I
know).
Well I just found this outline of a lecture
http://www.has.vcu.edu/psy/psy101/fors/spx.html that mentions a "place
theory" and a "volley theory" where the former is what I presented in my
post and the latter states that loudness is interpreted by the number of
times receptors fire.
I guess you should take what I wrote as just an idea, then.

"James Boyk" > wrote in message
...
> Do you have a citation to the literature supporting your notion of what
> makes for tone-deafness? I imagine that yes, some people have
> physiological defects which makes them tone-deaf; but I don't know what
> physical form the defect(s) might take. Anyway, I suggest this is rare!
> I've had hundreds of students in my science/music course over the years,
> for instance; and many said they couldn't carry a tune; but I can't
> offhand think of any whose sense of pitch didn't improve rather quickly
> with little training. There's no music training in most USA school
> systems now; so it's not surprising that many ears don't trained. (In
> terms of the ancient Greek idea of the three crucial subjects--rhetoric,
> math and music--most USA schools score 0 for 3.)
>
> I bet that your ear for guitar tuning could be improved rather quickly.
> See any teacher of "ear-training."
>
> James Boyk
>

[Luke Kaven]

(ChrisCoaster) wrote:

>I've heard this phrase used in musical and social circles. Supposedly
>it implies that when someone sings along, RE, to the radio, they are
>off key by some amount.
>
>Does this mean that a 440 "A" is not an A to a tone deaf person? How
>can that be. That's like saying 100 feet is not 100 feet to some
>people.
>
>-ChrisCoaster
>
>PS I'm not tone deaf AFAIK.

An old conundrum from Bertrand Russell: "I thought your yacht was
longer than it is."

[Aaron C Borgman]

ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
>> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>> > "Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
>> > following(!)
>> >>
>> >> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
>> >> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
>> >> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
>> >> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
>> >> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
>> >> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
>> >> would help.
>>
>> > _______________
>> > Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!
>>
>> > Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
>> > in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
>> > discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
>> > bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
>> > weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
>> > light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
>> > VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
>> > these two respects.
>>
>> You are most likely red-green deficient. It is by far the most common form
>> of color-blindness (affects ~10% men and .5% of women) and is genetic,
>> sometimes skipping a generation. It is likely that one of your grandfathers
>> also has this condition. True color-blindness (inability to distinguish any
>> color) is actually extremely rare.
> _____________________________
> Can you please explain that? The way my simple mind works, I presume
> it to mean I should get into lots of wrecks - I couldn't distinguish
> red & green traffic signals! My problem is nevertheless with navy blue
> and black items of clothing.

> Please straighten me out!


http://www.kingmandom.com/~kingman/CVDtest.html

--
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

RA2-4-D15
phone: 971-214-8380

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's

[initialsBB]

"Mark T. Wieczorek" > wrote in message >...
> In other words, there's nothing external on your body that generates pitch.
> These methods still mostly rely on something external to the mind - some
> sort of physical comparison device.

That's not true, if I thump the side of my head I get an exact 333hz.
From there I merely have to mentally add the 107hz to come up with
440. Distances unfortunately are more of a problem since my limbs
grow at a pretty steady rate.

[Mark T. Wieczorek]

(initialsBB) wrote in
m:

>> In other words, there's nothing external on your body that generates
>> pitch. These methods still mostly rely on something external to the
>> mind - some sort of physical comparison device.
>
> That's not true, if I thump the side of my head I get an exact 333hz.
> From there I merely have to mentally add the 107hz to come up with
> 440. Distances unfortunately are more of a problem since my limbs
> grow at a pretty steady rate.

Neat. I'll have to try that one. I can see it know... hit your head, turn
the tuning key. Hit your head, turn the tuning key. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Regards,
Mark

--
http://www.marktaw.com/

http://www.prosoundreview.com/
User reviews of pro audio gear

[ChrisCoaster]

Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> > Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
> >> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> >> > "Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
> >> > following(!)
> >> >>
> >> >> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
> >> >> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
> >> >> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
> >> >> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
> >> >> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
> >> >> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
> >> >> would help.
>
> >> > _______________
> >> > Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!
>
> >> > Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
> >> > in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
> >> > discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
> >> > bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
> >> > weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
> >> > light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
> >> > VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
> >> > these two respects.
> >>
> >> You are most likely red-green deficient. It is by far the most common form
> >> of color-blindness (affects ~10% men and .5% of women) and is genetic,
> >> sometimes skipping a generation. It is likely that one of your grandfathers
> >> also has this condition. True color-blindness (inability to distinguish any
> >> color) is actually extremely rare.
> > _____________________________
> > Can you please explain that? The way my simple mind works, I presume
> > it to mean I should get into lots of wrecks - I couldn't distinguish
> > red & green traffic signals! My problem is nevertheless with navy blue
> > and black items of clothing.
>
> > Please straighten me out!
>
>
> http://www.kingmandom.com/~kingman/CVDtest.html
_____________________

Tried the test, I saw the first two, was off by one digit on the third image.

But those are mickey mouse! A dog could see those.

-CC

[Luke]

On 4 Aug 2003 13:59:21 -0700, (ChrisCoaster) wrote:

>Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
>> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>> > Aaron C Borgman > wrote in message >...
>> >> ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>> >> > "Nathan Higgins" -spam> disseminitated the
>> >> > following(!)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Think of colour blindness, people find it hard to differentiate between
>> >> >> colours, a circle filled with colourd dots, and a figure in the centre made
>> >> >> up of a different colours. Tone deaf is the same except it's aural not
>> >> >> visual. Does not mean that blue is not blue, or A is not A as you put it,
>> >> >> more along the lines of A could be A or A#.
>> >> >> This often develops in infancy, eg ear problems, some research into amusia
>> >> >> would help.
>>
>> >> > _______________
>> >> > Holy cow Nate - you hit on something there!
>>
>> >> > Those puzzles you talk about - the colored dot ones - I first saw one
>> >> > in some magazine 10 years ago. To this day I am still unable to
>> >> > discern anything from those patterns. In a coincidence, I have a
>> >> > bunch of "business" socks in my dresser drawer, and my biggest
>> >> > weakness is telling apart the blacks and navy blue pairs, even under a
>> >> > light! Only sunlight or a known black object, such as the case of my
>> >> > VCR, will reveal which is which. So I guess I'm "color blind" in
>> >> > these two respects.
>> >>
>> >> You are most likely red-green deficient. It is by far the most common form
>> >> of color-blindness (affects ~10% men and .5% of women) and is genetic,
>> >> sometimes skipping a generation. It is likely that one of your grandfathers
>> >> also has this condition. True color-blindness (inability to distinguish any
>> >> color) is actually extremely rare.
>> > _____________________________
>> > Can you please explain that? The way my simple mind works, I presume
>> > it to mean I should get into lots of wrecks - I couldn't distinguish
>> > red & green traffic signals! My problem is nevertheless with navy blue
>> > and black items of clothing.
>>
>> > Please straighten me out!
>>
>>
>> http://www.kingmandom.com/~kingman/CVDtest.html
>_____________________
>
>Tried the test, I saw the first two, was off by one digit on the third image.
>
>But those are mickey mouse! A dog could see those.
>
>-CC

They're only easy if you can see colors. I converted the images to
greyscale and put them next to the originals. See if the colorless
ones seem as mickey mouse to you: http://ga2so.com/color.html

[Sprouseod]

Ishihara plates (they are also call pseudo isochromatic plates) are truly only
a screening tool. If they are administered under incorrect lighting conditions
or w/o your proper Rx (glasses) results can very. But many eye docs only have
these. A much more definitive test is called the Farnsworth D-15. A very
simple test where you line up a set caps that have pastel color. Each cap is
numbered then plotted on a particular graph. The shape of the graph once
plotted is diagnostic of you color deficiency. Color deficiency occurs because
of a defect or complete absence of one of your 3 cones. Red Green or Blue.
The retina is made up of rods and cones. Cones see color and fine detail, rods
see black and white. I am not sure "Tone Deaf" is even a diagnosis. Being
tone deaf is more perceptual, an occurrence in the higher orders of the brain
not in the inner ear. Prebycusis is the natural loss of hearing as you get
older, usually high freq loss mostly. If being tone deaf is a function of the
inner ear (just as being color deficient is a function of the retina) then as
musicians and engineers get older they would get worse at their trade. Instead
they get better. In other words freq response may not affect perception music
and tone.

Just my thoughts
Richard

[Anders HJ]

(ChrisCoaster) wrote in message

> I've heard this phrase used in musical and social circles. Supposedly
> it implies that when someone sings along, RE, to the radio, they are
> off key by some amount.

When I was at scool, I lived next door to the only person I know, that
I would describe as "tone deaf". She sang very happily along with the
radio and her favorite songs, but not with one single interval being
anywhere near where it should be. The tones came at something that
sounded like totally random pitches. She was indeed interested in the
music (and also sang in the very small school choir :-) but had no
sence of pitch at all.

Another story. A singing teacher of mine once started a choir for
people who could not sing and expected about 10-15 people to join in.
But before the season began, she had 50 members. Of course it showed
that most of them was actually not so bad and could sing, so the year
after the choir was split in two, but even the "helpless" choir could
do some one or two voice tunes in an OK way.

Regards,

Anders

[WillStG]

(Anders HJ)

>Of course, if we perform
>something with either organ or piano, we have to intonate so we don't
>sound out of tune compared to the piano.

Yeah, when you take vocal lessons and sing scales and sequences along with
a piano, you train yourself to sing to frequencies that aren't neccessarily of
our "inner being" (or whatever). My original point was that singing equal
tempered, or "stretched tuned" as a piano usually is really is a bit different
then what comes to us naturally.

Regards,

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox And Friends/Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[ScotFraser]

<< I presume
>> > it to mean I should get into lots of wrecks - I couldn't distinguish
>> > red & green traffic signals! >>

Red & green traffic lights tend not to be in the frequency range most affected
by red-green color deficiency. There is also considerable difference in light
output intensity, plus the fact that red is always in the same place on every
signal. The hard to distinguish tones are more of the reddish-brown &
brownish-red variety. The brown & red bands on resistors are real hard for me
to discern. Also blue & purple tend to be difficult to differentiate.
Scott Fraser

[Dave Martin]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...

> Red & green traffic lights tend not to be in the frequency range most
affected
> by red-green color deficiency. There is also considerable difference in
light
> output intensity, plus the fact that red is always in the same place on
every
> signal. The hard to distinguish tones are more of the reddish-brown &
> brownish-red variety. The brown & red bands on resistors are real hard for
me
> to discern. Also blue & purple tend to be difficult to differentiate.
> Scott Fraser

The traffic light issue with red/green colorblindness is distinguishing
between flashing yellow and flashing red lights at night, when you can't
tell which position on the traffic light is shining. I've gotten busted a
couple of times due to that, and once was able to talked the judge into not
fining me...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Dave Martin]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << The traffic light issue with red/green colorblindness is distinguishing
> between flashing yellow and flashing red lights at night, when you can't
> tell which position on the traffic light is shining. >>
>
> Interesting. I haven't had that issue. I guess everybody's color
deficiency is
> a little different.
>
If I'm driving down a country road at night, and up ahead there's an
intersection with a flashing light - that's what I can't reliably
distinguish. If there were both a red and a yellow, it wouldn't have a
problem, but when it's just one color light in isolation, it's hard for me
to know if I should stop or just slow down.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Anders HJ]

>My original point was that singing equal
> tempered, or "stretched tuned" as a piano usually is really is a bit different then what comes to us naturally.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Miho



And I fully agree! :-)

have a nice time,

Anders

[ScotFraser]

<< If there were both a red and a yellow, it wouldn't have a
problem, but when it's just one color light in isolation, it's hard for me
to know if I should stop or just slow down. >>

Best policy would be to barrel right through it without pause. It obviously
wasn't intended for you.

<g>

Scott Fraser

[Dave Martin]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << If there were both a red and a yellow, it wouldn't have a
> problem, but when it's just one color light in isolation, it's hard for me
> to know if I should stop or just slow down. >>
>
> Best policy would be to barrel right through it without pause. It
obviously
> wasn't intended for you.
>
Tried that, and both times the policemen said, "Tell it to the Judge."

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Bruce L. Bergman]

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:08:34 -0500, someone who calls themselves "Dave
Martin" > wrote:

>"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
>> << If there were both a red and a yellow, it wouldn't have a
>> problem, but when it's just one color light in isolation, it's hard for me
>> to know if I should stop or just slow down. >>
>>
>> Best policy would be to barrel right through it without pause. It
>obviously
>> wasn't intended for you.
>>
>Tried that, and both times the policemen said, "Tell it to the Judge."

Y'know, the yellow diamond-shaped "STOP AHEAD" sign, and red
octagonal "STOP" sign, and the word "STOP" and limit line painted on
the road might have all provided you with valuable clues if you had
slowed down a bit on approach... ;-P

(When in doubt, stop - they won't shoot you for that. Though if
your brake lights are out it can get messy...)

--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.

[Dave Martin]

"Bruce L. Bergman" > wrote in message
>
> Y'know, the yellow diamond-shaped "STOP AHEAD" sign, and red
> octagonal "STOP" sign, and the word "STOP" and limit line painted on
> the road might have all provided you with valuable clues if you had
> slowed down a bit on approach... ;-P
>
> (When in doubt, stop - they won't shoot you for that. Though if
> your brake lights are out it can get messy...)
>
You mean there are warning signs? Who knew? And you actually CAN be shot for
stopping on a flashing yellow in Tennessee - not by the police, but by some
Bubba who thinks that you did it just to **** him off...

[ScotFraser]

<< Tried that, and both times the policemen said, "Tell it to the Judge."
>>

Humor impaired cops, sheesh.


Scott Fraser