So what about reverb? (and Loudness)

[Nick Delonas]

Regarding the application of reverb, someone here (or somewhere similar)
once tongue-in-cheek remarked, "if you can hear it, it's too much."

Personally, I find applying the right amount of reverb to be most tricky
for:

A) vocals
B) whole mix (room)

Now, I can clearly hear reverb on many commercial recordings, but rarely
think it's too much or too little. So it seems most of the pros behind
the recordings I buy have the technique down.

Personally, I tend to err way on the side of too little and one critic
on my first CD commented that it sounded a bit flat. So I'm trying to
loosen up a bit on this next one.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in a
mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix. How do you deal with the
trade off between clarity/presence and lushness/spatial depth? Is there
any rational guideline for when the verb is too much or too little, or
is it purely a matter of taste/ear/experience?

I'd also love to hear your pragmatic opinions on the loudness wars and
how best to mix a pop CD today? I've read Bob Katz and greatly respect
his opinion, but I'd like to hear yours as well.

Thanks.

--Nick

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 21, 6:19 pm, Nick Delonas > wrote:

> Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in a
> mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix.

I don't listen to a lot of pop music, but what I've heard over the
past five years or so seems to be pretty dry except as an effect,
where you're expected to hear it. It's kind of unusual in pop
recording to use overall reverb on a mix with all the individual
reverbs going on. Me, I just turn up the Aux Send knobs that feed one
reverb, and that's my reverb.

> I'd also love to hear your pragmatic opinions on the loudness wars and
> how best to mix a pop CD today?

While it's not a good reason for hyper-loudness to go away, I think
it's becoming less relevant since less music is listened to from CD
and less is being played on the radio (so it doesn't have to be loud
to get the music director's attention so it'll get airplay). I suspect
that people find volume changes from song to song less objectinable
when listening on earbuds or computer speakers.

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> On Dec 21, 6:19 pm, Nick Delonas > wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in a
>> mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix.
>
> I don't listen to a lot of pop music, but what I've heard over the
> past five years or so seems to be pretty dry except as an effect,
> where you're expected to hear it. It's kind of unusual in pop
> recording to use overall reverb on a mix with all the individual
> reverbs going on. Me, I just turn up the Aux Send knobs that feed one
> reverb, and that's my reverb.

It really hard to hear reverb with you have no dynamic range, so I guess
they figure why bother putting it in to begin with.

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On Dec 21, 6:19 pm, Nick Delonas > wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in
> > a mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix.
>
> I don't listen to a lot of pop music, but what I've heard over the
> past five years or so seems to be pretty dry except as an effect,
> where you're expected to hear it. It's kind of unusual in pop
> recording to use overall reverb on a mix with all the individual
> reverbs going on. Me, I just turn up the Aux Send knobs that feed one
> reverb, and that's my reverb.
>
That's the way it's done. I think of reverb as a delicate and subtle kind
of seasoning. Col. Sanders uses a secret blend of herbs and spices.
Coca-Cola closely guards their formula. I have said over and over "If you
notice the sound, its wrong". Many of the mixes we hear have 'verb as
seasoning in such subtle amounts and settings that it can't be noticed.
Nonetheless, it is there and is seriously important to the sound. In
general, short RT60 values and pre-delays are the things to consider.
"Rooms" that have neutral character also are important.

.... Then there is the one about the gung-ho junior recordist who thought a
wet dream was one with too much 'verb. ;-p

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Paul Stamler]

"Nick Delonas" > wrote in message
...
> Personally, I tend to err way on the side of too little and one critic
> on my first CD commented that it sounded a bit flat. So I'm trying to
> loosen up a bit on this next one.
>
> Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in a
> mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix. How do you deal with the
> trade off between clarity/presence and lushness/spatial depth? Is there
> any rational guideline for when the verb is too much or too little, or
> is it purely a matter of taste/ear/experience?

My method for adjusting reverb is pretty straightforward. I adjust it until
it sounds right, then turn it down 6dB. When I come back the next day and
listen, it's usually right or pretty close. .

> I'd also love to hear your pragmatic opinions on the loudness wars and
> how best to mix a pop CD today? I've read Bob Katz and greatly respect
> his opinion, but I'd like to hear yours as well.

I like reasonable amounts of dynamic range, and hate the sound of
"toothpaste-tube" ultra-compression. So I try to mix with some decent range,
and master without too much squash. Sometimes none at all.

BTW, on the way home tonight I was listening to a local oldies station I
hadn't heard in a few years, and migawd did they sound over-compressed. I
had some idea what these songs sounded like on moderately-compressed
stations, but this was flat as a fritter. Imagine "Get Off of My Cloud" with
no dynamics at all. It was horrible; I turned it off.

Peace,
Paul

[Phildo]

"Nick Delonas" > wrote in message
...
> Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinion on the art of applying reverb in a
> mix -- especially to vocals and the whole mix. How do you deal with the
> trade off between clarity/presence and lushness/spatial depth? Is there
> any rational guideline for when the verb is too much or too little, or
> is it purely a matter of taste/ear/experience?

What you are asking is a huge question with many answers, all of which
depends on all manner of conditions. You might as well have asked how long
is a piece of string because you will get just as many different answers.

Use of reverb is a very different ball game depending on whether it is for
live or recording. It also depends very much on the source material - you
might want to add a big drum reverb to a rock track where it would not be
suitable for a jazz recording for instance. Some people just use it for
ambience, others use it very much as an effect and use several different
reverbs within a mix on various instruments.

Personally I tend to use a lot of reverb and probably more than most people
would but I use it very much to effect to give a fuller sound, smudge
brass/strings to give a bigger sound and cover up some less-than-perfect
vocals. I've also used it to get huge drum sounds when mixing rock bands.

It is also very dependant (for live use) on the environment you are mixing
in. The room I mixed in until recently is VERY dry so I had to add a lot of
reverb to fill it out. Some venues I've done I've not had to add any reverb
because the rooms were so live it just wasn't needed.

Phildo

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:21:59 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article >):

> My method for adjusting reverb is pretty straightforward. I adjust it until
> it sounds right, then turn it down 6dB. When I come back the next day and
> listen, it's usually right or pretty close. .

Thanks for my first laugh of the day. :)

I set reverb return levels using the monitors and then put the headphones on
to find how much to pull it back. Usually about 6 dB. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[HKC]

"Roy W. Rising" : I have said over and over "If you notice the sound, its
wrong".

Try telling that to George Michael, like anything else it's a matter of
taste. My advice would be to have some records that you want your material
to sound similar to nearby during mix.
Reverb on the entire track is not so common but it does wonders if your
overall sound gets too clinical. Just a tad of a good room reverb (I prefer
convolusion for this, Space Designer, Altiverb etc) and your track will get
more of a live sound.
The same trick can be used if you have recorded the drums in a dry room. Add
some room to the overheads and leave the close mics fairly dry. Of course
it's important that the overheads have a good full sound.

[Nick Delonas]

In article >, says...
> What you are asking is a huge question with many answers, all of which
> depends on all manner of conditions. You might as well have asked how long
> is a piece of string because you will get just as many different answers.

Yeah but the answers always so good in here, including yours. I always
get a lot out of them.

--Nick

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Nick Delonas wrote:

> In article >,
> says...

>> What you are asking is a huge question with many answers, all of
>> which depends on all manner of conditions. You might as well have
>> asked how long is a piece of string because you will get just as
>> many different answers.

> Yeah but the answers always so good in here, including yours. I
> always get a lot out of them.

Much has been said, so I'll just toss in that reverb and compression is to
some extent interchangeable, at least in the context of the subject header.
And that it is often best applied before compression, if any, but needs to
be evaluated after ... this because compression increases the reverb by
keeping it loud longer.

Multiband compression seems to me to have the potential of killing off the
spaciousness and perspective, but of course keeps the mud in, but
potentially altered too much from its loud signal context to be a verbed
image of it.

> --Nick


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Carey Carlan]

Nick Delonas > wrote in news:MPG.21d6140dcd83d3ac9896a7
@news.optonline.net:

> I'd also love to hear your pragmatic opinions on the loudness wars and
> how best to mix a pop CD today? I've read Bob Katz and greatly respect
> his opinion, but I'd like to hear yours as well.

"If you can hear it, it's too much."

That needs modification. Try "If you notice it, it's wrong."

You can add gobs of the right reverb to the right music and be fine. A Mel
Torme recording can stand tons of plate reverb on the vocal before it
hurts. But use the wrong sound or the wrong volume and people will notice
it. That's when you need to try again.

Also, if using hypercompression, reverb added before compression becomes a
special effect rather than "room expansion". Play with adding some before
and some after compression and see how it sounds.