monitoring 40hz

[cporro]

today my dave moulton's golden ears arrived. on the end of every cd
there are test tones to make sure your system is more or less
calibrated. in the manual he says you should be able to hear them all
fairly well. i do hear them all fairly well except for the 40hz tone.
this one is very very faint.

my speakers (bought on a friend's recommendation when i knew very
little) are alesis m1 active mk2s. according to their manual they are
flat-ish until about 50hz. then they drop about 15db at 40hz. this is
at 100db.

the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new monitors.

if i ad the sub i have to deal with whatever that entails. getting
things balanced with the speakers... i really don't know. but i do
know it won't be a matter of plug and play.

i'm the type of person who doesn't mind investing in a certain amount
in musical gear. i'd rather get something decent then go through a
series of upgrades. i also feel like i should be hearing whats going
on in my mix at 40hz. is there any solution that could be had for
around 1500?

much thanks for any suggestions.

[studiorat]

Could it be the room?

[Arny Krueger]

"cporro" > wrote in message


> today my dave moulton's golden ears arrived. on the end
> of every cd there are test tones to make sure your system
> is more or less calibrated. in the manual he says you
> should be able to hear them all fairly well. i do hear
> them all fairly well except for the 40hz tone. this one
> is very very faint.

> my speakers (bought on a friend's recommendation when i
> knew very little) are alesis m1 active mk2s. according to
> their manual they are flat-ish until about 50hz. then
> they drop about 15db at 40hz. this is at 100db.

That's pretty impressive for a speaker that is about 8 x 8 x 15, and uses a
6.5 inch woofer. That's pretty impressive for $300 a pair, including power
amps.

> the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new
> monitors.

You got that right.

> if i ad the sub i have to deal with whatever that
> entails. getting things balanced with the speakers... i
> really don't know. but i do know it won't be a matter of
> plug and play.

You got that right.

> i'm the type of person who doesn't mind investing in a
> certain amount in musical gear. i'd rather get something
> decent then go through a series of upgrades. i also feel
> like i should be hearing whats going on in my mix at
> 40hz.

You've got that right.

> is there any solution that could be had for around 1500?

$500-700 gets you a really pretty good subwoofer.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/2311/test-bench-five-mid-price-subwoofers-page2.html

$1500 gets you something pretty impressive.

http://www.velodyne.com/main.aspx

But if you are *really serious* about deep loud bass, you build your own
starting with a robust raw driver:

Fi car audio q18 - search http://www.live.com/ with this text, their site
is the third hit.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 19, 3:57 am, cporro > wrote:

> there are test tones to make sure your system is more or less
> calibrated. in the manual he says you should be able to hear them all
> fairly well. i do hear them all fairly well except for the 40hz tone.
> this one is very very faint.

> my speakers (bought on a friend's recommendation when i knew very
> little) are alesis m1 active mk2s. according to their manual they are
> flat-ish until about 50hz. then they drop about 15db at 40hz. this is
> at 100db.

That could certainly explain why you can't hear the 40 Hz tone. But
it's also possible that you're sitting in the null of a standing wave
at that frequency. Does it get louder if you move a couple of feet one
way or another?

> the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new monitors.

The way I see it, you can ignore 40 Hz as long as you can hear
everything else. Unless your production work involves window-rattling
bass, you can learn a whole lot about what's going on above 40 Hz and
leave the low lows for the mastering engineer to tame for you.

> i'm the type of person who doesn't mind investing in a certain amount
> in musical gear. i'd rather get something decent then go through a
> series of upgrades.

When getting down that low, not only do you need a fairly large
speaker that moves a lot of air, but you need a well designed room to
support the speaker. I'd wait a while before buying new speakers and
see how your work is going. The only reason why I (personally) care
about what's going on at 40 Hz is to know if there's something I need
to filter out.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
cporro > wrote:
>today my dave moulton's golden ears arrived. on the end of every cd
>there are test tones to make sure your system is more or less
>calibrated. in the manual he says you should be able to hear them all
>fairly well. i do hear them all fairly well except for the 40hz tone.
>this one is very very faint.
>
>my speakers (bought on a friend's recommendation when i knew very
>little) are alesis m1 active mk2s. according to their manual they are
>flat-ish until about 50hz. then they drop about 15db at 40hz. this is
>at 100db.
>
>the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new monitors.

Or move the monitors. Play back the tone. Move the speakers closer to
the wall and farther away from the wall. Listen to what happens.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Federico]

How far are you sitting from the speakers?
F.

[Mark]

.. The only reason why I (personally) care
> about what's going on at 40 Hz is to know if there's something I need
> to filter out.


and an FFT spectrum display works great for that,,,Maybe you can't
hear it but you can sure SEE it.

Mark

[[email protected]]

On 2007-12-19 said:
>> there are test tones to make sure your system is more or less
>> calibrated. in the manual he says you should be able to hear them
>>all fairly well.
<snippage>
>> my speakers (bought on a friend's recommendation when i knew very
>> little) are alesis m1 active mk2s. according to their manual they
>>are flat-ish until about 50hz. then they drop about 15db at 40hz.
>>this is at 100db.
>That could certainly explain why you can't hear the 40 Hz tone. But
>it's also possible that you're sitting in the null of a standing
>wave at that frequency. Does it get louder if you move a couple of
>feet one way or another?
tHere's the first check I'd do.

>The way I see it, you can ignore 40 Hz as long as you can hear
>everything else. Unless your production work involves
>window-rattling bass, you can learn a whole lot about what's going
>on above 40 Hz and leave the low lows for the mastering engineer to
>tame for you.
CHances are good a lot of the work he's doing aren't going
to a mastering engineer the way things usually work these
days.

> >When getting down that low, not only do you need a fairly large
>speaker that moves a lot of air, but you need a well designed room
>to support the speaker. I'd wait a while before buying new speakers
>and see how your work is going. The only reason why I (personally)
>care about what's going on at 40 Hz is to know if there's something
>I need to filter out.

AGreed. A lot depends on the type of work you normally will
be doing.
I personally am not fond of the Alesis monitors, but then
that's me. I"ve never heard them in a control room wehre I
liked what they were doing, and one was a well designed
control room where I heard them. wHEn I did sessions there
I brought my Yamahas or rented a set of Tannoy 6.5's. tHe
owner of this room finally bought a pair of the TAnnoys to
go on the meter bridge I was doing enough work there <g>.

hOwever, follow the guidance given you by MEssrs dOrsey and
others and perform those tests first before rushing out to
part with your cash for new monitors or a sub.
Also, give us some guidance about the type of work you
normally do (styles of music you record, etcetera.)



Richard webb,
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.

[Frank Stearns]

Mike Rivers > writes:

snips

>When getting down that low, not only do you need a fairly large
>speaker that moves a lot of air, but you need a well designed room to
>support the speaker. I'd wait a while before buying new speakers and

All very true.

>see how your work is going. The only reason why I (personally) care
>about what's going on at 40 Hz is to know if there's something I need
>to filter out.

Depends on the music and where it's going, IMO.

I like having it there; you'd be amazed at the realism added by *flat* response
between say 25 and 50 Hz - standup bass, initial "hit" of fingers against guitar
strings, piano, etc. Then again, some pop/rock things probably do well with a steep
highpass at 50 Hz or so. Then it can get "louder" in the car without crapping out
the cones or the amps. :)

Back to the original post: I'd bet at least 1/2 the problem is the room; very good
suggestions by others to check that out in various ways.

And likewise, watch out for the point in the room that is +18 @ 50 hz. That can of
course screw up things as well.

Best of luck with it.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>
>hOwever, follow the guidance given you by MEssrs dOrsey and
>others and perform those tests first before rushing out to
>part with your cash for new monitors or a sub.
>Also, give us some guidance about the type of work you
>normally do (styles of music you record, etcetera.)

I mean, I'll tell you that doing jazz and classical stuff, it's important
to have good solid response down to 20 Hz, because sometimes there is stuff
down there that you don't want there. And you want to know what it is and
how to deal with it without affecting anything else. But I also know rock
guys who just highpass everything but the kick without thinking about it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ethan Winer]

> the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new monitors.

Get new monitors. Adding a sub to speakers like that is throwing good money
after bad IMO. If you can't afford new speakers now, but can afford a cheap
sub, put the money aside until you can afford better speakers.

--Ethan

[HKC]

--scott wrote:
But I also know rock guys who just highpass everything but the kick without
thinking about it.

That would be me, I do leave the bass through too though. Generally in rock
you want as much output as possible and therefore you often cut everything
under 30 and most between 60 to 100 to get the mix as loud as you possibly
can.
I don't mean to imply that I think that's the only way to do it but it's a
popular one and it does make the lack of sound around and below 40Hz not
such a big deal if you're doing "radio friendly" material.
Basically what it's all about is if your mixes sound as good outside the
studio as inside. The Alesis speakers are good enough to expect decent mixes
from so if the bass is always to loud as soon as you take the mix to another
environment you're in trouble. It's most likely to be the room and not the
speakers though but that's a completely different discussion.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Ethan Winer wrote:

>> the way i see it i can either ad a sub or buy some new monitors.

> Get new monitors. Adding a sub to speakers like that is throwing good
> money after bad IMO. If you can't afford new speakers now, but can
> afford a cheap sub, put the money aside until you can afford better
> speakers.

A cheap sub and a pair of good subs are different concepts, but don't think
in terms of monitors and subs, think in the term playback system. Unless you
are very good at finding second hand stuff a pair of good subs is however
gonna cost the major part of what a new pair of speakers cost, simply
because the bass loudspeaker units tend to be the costliest component.

There ain't no mono sub gonna play back inverse polarity VLF ... and it *is*
a major part of room tone and of natural reverb. But it can also be a
major - ahem - issue. Back in the analog age I built me a small box with the
primary windings of a pair of line level trannies in series between L hot
and R hot, unbalanced, with a suitable source impedance it did wonders to
some multimiked recordings. There is a plug in out there that can do the
same .... kinda overpriced, but extremely useful for vinyl transfers and it
can be a better way to remedy deep bass issues than brickwall filtering.

It also needs to be said that the actual audibility of VLF (sub 50 Hz range)
depends a lot on how severe the noise pollution is wherever you are.

> --Ethan


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[cporro]

sheesh. where to start. first, i do rock music. but i do like my kick
big at times.

listening again my perceived level of 40hz is about 38db lower then a
1k signal on these speakers.

my speakers are off the wall 14" from their back, the woofers are
around 24" off the wall. they are both at least 4 from a corner. i'm
listening using that 38% rule, so 38% of the rooms longest dimension.
that distance from the wall where the speakers are.

i did move around the room. and i can actually hear it just as well
from my monitoring spot as i can in the corners or at other places.

next i tried messing with the distance the speakers were from the
wall. varying it from a few inches to 20". not much change.

then i ran a mod calc to see if the lower modes were evenly spaced. by
far the largest gap is between 34hz and 60hz. so maybe there is
something to that.

it was an interesting idea mentioned above about noise pollution. i am
next to a light rail train. i'm sure that kicks up from VLF. but even
late at night when nothing much is going on i perceive 40hz as very
very quite in comparison with the other tests.

i appreciate all the practical advice such as checking for room nulls,
moving the speakers, and that 40hz is a frequency that doesn't always
need great attention.

you guys have saved me cash and undue work many times.

i think for now i've explored some options and learned a little. i'm
going to continue with the golden ears cds as is and start considering
some new monitors. i've had the alesis monitors for something like 5
years now. btw the cones are 5.5 inches. it's probably about time. i'm
sure there are many threads about monitors on this forum.

thanks again.

[Scott Dorsey]

cporro > wrote:
>sheesh. where to start. first, i do rock music. but i do like my kick
>big at times.

That's fine, but most of that "big" sound comes from stuff well above
40 Hz. And finding that out is part of what the Moulton training is
about.

>listening again my perceived level of 40hz is about 38db lower then a
>1k signal on these speakers.

Wow. Yeah, I would call that pretty unacceptable, especially if the
drop is a slow one.

>my speakers are off the wall 14" from their back, the woofers are
>around 24" off the wall. they are both at least 4 from a corner. i'm
>listening using that 38% rule, so 38% of the rooms longest dimension.
>that distance from the wall where the speakers are.

Try moving them closer to the wall, and closer to the corner. Try
pullng them farther forward. What you are doing is adjusting the
frequency of the resonant peak that is made by the low frequencies
coming from the rear of the speaker striking the wall behind them.

It won't fix everything, but you might be able to make it a little
better.

>i did move around the room. and i can actually hear it just as well
>from my monitoring spot as i can in the corners or at other places.

That's a good sign at least.

>next i tried messing with the distance the speakers were from the
>wall. varying it from a few inches to 20". not much change.

Okay, that's a sign you just don't have a damn thing down there coming
out of the speakers.

>then i ran a mod calc to see if the lower modes were evenly spaced. by
>far the largest gap is between 34hz and 60hz. so maybe there is
>something to that.

That's typical, yes, but I don't think that's the major problem. It's
probably a minor one, though.

>i appreciate all the practical advice such as checking for room nulls,
>moving the speakers, and that 40hz is a frequency that doesn't always
>need great attention.

Plot every frequency at third octave intervals, and see how fast the
response drops off and at what frequency it starts to drop. This tells
you what you can do about it and can help you make some guesses about
where the dropoff is coming from.

>i think for now i've explored some options and learned a little. i'm
>going to continue with the golden ears cds as is and start considering
>some new monitors. i've had the alesis monitors for something like 5
>years now. btw the cones are 5.5 inches. it's probably about time. i'm
>sure there are many threads about monitors on this forum.

Yes, and you might be able to do _some_ of the Moulton stuff on headphones.
Not all of it, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

HKC > wrote:
>--scott wrote:
>But I also know rock guys who just highpass everything but the kick without
>thinking about it.
>
>That would be me, I do leave the bass through too though. Generally in rock
>you want as much output as possible and therefore you often cut everything
>under 30 and most between 60 to 100 to get the mix as loud as you possibly
>can.
>I don't mean to imply that I think that's the only way to do it but it's a
>popular one and it does make the lack of sound around and below 40Hz not
>such a big deal if you're doing "radio friendly" material.

If you don't have good monitoring, you really don't have any choice but to
do that. And I agree, sometimes if you're trying to get stuff that has to
cut through on systems with restricted low end, you might as well do it
anyway.

>Basically what it's all about is if your mixes sound as good outside the
>studio as inside. The Alesis speakers are good enough to expect decent mixes
>from so if the bass is always to loud as soon as you take the mix to another
>environment you're in trouble. It's most likely to be the room and not the
>speakers though but that's a completely different discussion.

Yes, but the original poster is trying to listen to ear training material
through them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."