How long can I run FireWire?

[5016]

I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.

I have a basement that I use for musicians. Currently, I move
equipment down there to track and move some of it back up to mix.
Forgeting for the moment about any problems in the tracking area, that
means that my monitoring environment is far from ideal.

Ideally, I would like to be able to track from the room upstairs.

So, I would like to buy a box or series of boxes that has the
following functionality
- 12+ mic inputs with digitally controlled gain
- multiple outputs for headphones mixes
- A/D and D/A functionality
- can connect to a computer with some kind of a digital cable

This way, the box stays downstairs, and I stay upstairs and I don't
have long runs of cable to worry about.

It strikes me that the MOTU Traveler + MOTU 8Pre has this
functionality *IF* I can run FireWire 60 feet or so. Can I do this (I
don't think so) or if not is there any way of achieving the same goal?

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 17, 9:05 pm, 5016 > wrote:
> I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
> good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.

> I have a basement that I use for musicians.

> Ideally, I would like to be able to track from the room upstairs.

> So, I would like to buy a box or series of boxes that has the
> following functionality
> - 12+ mic inputs with digitally controlled gain
> - multiple outputs for headphones mixes
> - A/D and D/A functionality
> - can connect to a computer with some kind of a digital cable

> This way, the box stays downstairs, and I stay upstairs and I don't
> have long runs of cable to worry about.

You have unrealistic expectations unless you have a whole lot of
money. However, there's a very simple solution if you get over what's
apparentlyh a digital hangup you have. Put a mixer upstairs and just
run a snake for the mics down to the basement. There's no problem
running mics through 60 feet of cable.

There are digital snake systems but they're pretty expensive.
Generally they have a box on each end, a piece of Ethernet cable
between them, analog connections at one end and analog, digital, or
both at the other end, plus a way to connect to a computer for remote
gain control. But you probably don't need that for the the length you
need to run.

A 12 (or more) channel snake will cost less than 60 feet of Cat5 cable
for sure, but the rest of the system will eat you up. Take the simple
route and get to work.

[Arny Krueger]

"5016" > wrote in message


> I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from.
> It sounds good and has my PC setup and the good speakers
> in it.

> I have a basement that I use for musicians. Currently, I
> move equipment down there to track and move some of it
> back up to mix. Forgeting for the moment about any
> problems in the tracking area, that means that my
> monitoring environment is far from ideal.

> Ideally, I would like to be able to track from the room
> upstairs.

So, you're going to put in a video link, or maybe a periscope so that you
can see the performers from the console?

> So, I would like to buy a box or series of boxes that has
> the following functionality

> - 12+ mic inputs with digitally controlled gain
> - multiple outputs for headphones mixes
> - A/D and D/A functionality
> - can connect to a computer with some kind of a digital
> cable

In most cases you can just put in a second computer in place of all the
complexity and expensive hardware that you are thinking about.

> This way, the box stays downstairs, and I stay upstairs
> and I don't have long runs of cable to worry about.


> It strikes me that the MOTU Traveler + MOTU 8Pre has this
> functionality *IF* I can run FireWire 60 feet or so. Can
> I do this (I don't think so) or if not is there any way
> of achieving the same goal?

Which form of Firewire are you talking about?

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE1394

http://www.nti1.ca/1394-fiber-extender.html

[Randy Yates]

5016 > writes:
> [...]

At least two years, maybe longer.
--
% Randy Yates % "She tells me that she likes me very much,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % but when I try to touch, she makes it
%%% 919-577-9882 % all too clear."
%%%% > % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

5016 wrote:

> I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
> good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.

Fine.

> I have a basement that I use for musicians.

And - saving a lot of quote - you want to operate the mixdown from your
upstair room. Using audition on a screenless pc via radmin tested fine for
me in a recent test and the only cable required is a microphone cable
carrying stereo audio up for monitoring. You also need to install a wireless
network that covers your house. Not what you ask about, but structurally a
lot sounder.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Badmuts]

In my 'B' studio I have the computer (which has been made very silent) and
firewire mixer/ad/da) in the tracking room, audio monitoring through a line
to the control room, and a kvm-to-cat5-converter with a cat5 cable to the
control room so i can operate the computer from both control room and
tracking room.

Phonic makes some very affordable firewire gear, check their helix board and
firefly series.
Presonus Firestudio + Behringer ADA8000 is also a nice solution for 16
channels.

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:05:34 -0800 (PST), 5016 >
wrote:

>I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
>good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.
>
>I have a basement that I use for musicians. Currently, I move
>equipment down there to track and move some of it back up to mix.
>Forgeting for the moment about any problems in the tracking area, that
>means that my monitoring environment is far from ideal.
>
>Ideally, I would like to be able to track from the room upstairs.
>
>So, I would like to buy a box or series of boxes that has the
>following functionality
> - 12+ mic inputs with digitally controlled gain
> - multiple outputs for headphones mixes
> - A/D and D/A functionality
> - can connect to a computer with some kind of a digital cable
>
>This way, the box stays downstairs, and I stay upstairs and I don't
>have long runs of cable to worry about.
>
>It strikes me that the MOTU Traveler + MOTU 8Pre has this
>functionality *IF* I can run FireWire 60 feet or so. Can I do this (I
>don't think so) or if not is there any way of achieving the same goal?


Don't run long firewire. Run a snake for the mics, monitor sends etc.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Laurence Payne wrote:

>> I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
>> good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.

>> I have a basement that I use for musicians.

> Don't run long firewire. Run a snake for the mics, monitor sends etc.

Put the daw downstairs, get a laptop and radmin as initially suggested.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 17, 11:38 pm, Randy Yates > wrote:

> At least two years, maybe longer.

I was going to say about two seconds without clicks, unless the buffer
size is too big for practical monitoring without an external analog
path. But I didn't think he'd understand. <g>

[Randy Yates]

Mike Rivers > writes:

> On Dec 17, 11:38 pm, Randy Yates > wrote:
>
>> At least two years, maybe longer.
>
> I was going to say about two seconds without clicks, unless the buffer
> size is too big for practical monitoring without an external analog
> path. But I didn't think he'd understand. <g>

http://www.jokesgallery.com/joke.php?joke=298&id=0
--
% Randy Yates % "I met someone who looks alot like you,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % she does the things you do,
%%% 919-577-9882 % but she is an IBM."
%%%% > % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:58:39 -0800 (PST), Mike Rivers
> wrote:

>On Dec 17, 11:38 pm, Randy Yates > wrote:
>
>> At least two years, maybe longer.
>
>I was going to say about two seconds without clicks, unless the buffer
>size is too big for practical monitoring without an external analog
>path. But I didn't think he'd understand. <g>

But you don't like ANY delay on monitoring. That isn't going to be
any different on any interface - pci, Firewire or usb.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 18, 8:38 am, Randy Yates > wrote:

> http://www.jokesgallery.com/joke.php?joke=298&id=0

And then there was the farmer who was driving to the general store in
his old pickup truck. The sheriff just got a new radar speed meter and
was clocking cars on the one road into town. He flagged down the
farmer and said "I'm going to have to give you a ticket. The radar
said you were going 35 miles an hour and the speed limit here is 25."
The farmer replied: "There must be something wrong with your radar
thing. This old truck won't run for an hour."

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 18, 9:25 am, Laurence Payne <NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com>
wrote:

> But you don't like ANY delay on monitoring. That isn't going to be
> any different on any interface - pci, Firewire or usb.

Not all interfaces have direct hardware monitoring. You have delay on
monitoring if you monitor the DAW output. While the delay through the
Firewire interface might be negligible, there's going to be some delay
through the A/D and D/A converters (about 3 ms at 44.1 kHz with the
digital filters in modern chips) plus the processing time of the
computer (also probably negligible) and the length of time it takes
from when a sample goes into the buffer to when it comes out. That's
the "Latency" that you can set.

[D C[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>> I have an upstairs room in my house I'd like to mix from. It sounds
>> good and has my PC setup and the good speakers in it.
>
>> I have a basement that I use for musicians.
>
>> Ideally, I would like to be able to track from the room upstairs.
>
>> So, I would like to buy a box or series of boxes that has the
>> following functionality
>> - 12+ mic inputs with digitally controlled gain
>> - multiple outputs for headphones mixes
>> - A/D and D/A functionality
>> - can connect to a computer with some kind of a digital cable
>
>> This way, the box stays downstairs, and I stay upstairs and I don't
>> have long runs of cable to worry about.
>
> You have unrealistic expectations unless you have a whole lot of
> money.

I'm never smarter than you. Too much pressure. : )

But I did go to a conference hosted by Yamaha, and in the binder we
received was a diagram of Firewire throughout the home of the future.
OP's expectation is right in line with the original spec.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 18, 5:58 pm, D C > wrote:

> But I did go to a conference hosted by Yamaha, and in the binder we
> received was a diagram of Firewire throughout the home of the future.
> OP's expectation is right in line with the original spec.

Oh, yeah, they always have homes like that on exhibit at the CES, with
Firewire doing things like controlling the microwave oven from the
home theater room. How did they get around the present 10 meter cable
length specification? That must be Firewire 2020 or something.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message

> On Dec 18, 5:58 pm, D C > wrote:
>
>> But I did go to a conference hosted by Yamaha, and in
>> the binder we received was a diagram of Firewire
>> throughout the home of the future. OP's expectation is
>> right in line with the original spec.
>
> Oh, yeah, they always have homes like that on exhibit at
> the CES, with Firewire doing things like controlling the
> microwave oven from the home theater room. How did they
> get around the present 10 meter cable length
> specification? That must be Firewire 2020 or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE1394

"The full IEEE 1394b specification supports data rates up to 3200 Mbit/s
over beta-mode or optical connections up to 100 metres in length. Standard
Category 5e unshielded twisted pair supports 100 metres at S100. The
original 1394 and 1394a standards used data/strobe (D/S) encoding (called
legacy mode) on the signal wires, while 1394b adds a data encoding scheme
called 8B10B (also referred to as beta mode)."

[D C[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>> But I did go to a conference hosted by Yamaha, and in the binder we
>> received was a diagram of Firewire throughout the home of the future.
>> OP's expectation is right in line with the original spec.
>
> Oh, yeah, they always have homes like that on exhibit at the CES, with
> Firewire doing things like controlling the microwave oven from the
> home theater room. How did they get around the present 10 meter cable
> length specification? That must be Firewire 2020 or something.


This was pro audio people, though. Not pie in the sky guys.