Cop-out or valid for M-Audio to say they "don't support" their cardrunning with XP MCE? [Archive]

Patrick Keenan

December 10th 07, 03:23 AM

"Doc" > wrote in message
...
>I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
> hardware with this O/S.

M-Audio isn't alone in this by any means. The list is more than a few
lines.

> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell.

If that's the case for you, I would suggest that you might safely invest in
lottery tickets.

Many people have *no luck at all* installing m-Audio or DigiDesign hardware
or software, or other audio-recording related devices from other
manufacturers on MCE; or in the case of actually getting it installed, not
having it run reliably or usably.

That unreliability is why the manufacturers do not endorse it or support it.

>Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".

Yes. They can't tell if it will work or not, and can't fix MCE.

MCE is different enough to require a full test programe.

They may have gotten into a test cycle and realized that some of the
services in MCE prevent the hardware and software from functioning properly,
predictably or reliably.

In this case the only honest thing to do is to say that MCE isn't supported,
rather than telling customers that it will work with your hardware.

> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

They know that often enough it doesn't, and whether it does or not is
beyond their control. It apparently doesn't work to their satisfaction,
and if it doesn't, may not be fixable by any means other than a different
OS.

DigiDesign does the same thing. The mBox and ProTools aren't supported
under MCE either. Same with Presonus.

They know that, for example, the extra services running in MCE get in the
way of recording, and there's no point in wasting time trying to make it
work by trying to cripple the OS.

> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

Yes, it's simply stated as this: MCE is unsuitable for this purpose.

Here's the way somebody at Presonus put it:

http://www.presonus.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-131.html

"Like the article says, Media Center edition is not supported, and we have
certainly encountered users that have irresolvable issues with that OS.
Other users have had good reports, but as far as in-house testing goes, we
cannot verify stable functionality with XP Media Center, and therefore do
not reccommend it."

> Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed

Yes. It's just not suitable for recording digital audio in a multi-track
context, which is what the m-Audio and DigiDesign and Presonus etc, hardware
and sofware is for.

> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP

It's not *wholly* unlike them, but it's different enough to render it
unsuitable for use with those kinds of hardware and software.

> and just happens to have
> the same look as the other versions?

Pretty much.

> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
> cause?

You bet. That's why these manufacturers don't support it.

> Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
> versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
> and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

I've seen a number of posts in other groups from people who can NOT get
either m-Audio or Digidesign hardware or software to work properly in MCE,
even if they managed to get it installed. They would up replacing both
the audio hardware AND the PC.

And, for example,

http://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/ts/detail.php?Index=30163&keyword=30163
=======
"Article # 30163Date: 2006-01-05
Problem:
Windows XP Media Center compatiblity alert (updated 2/12/2007).

Solution:
Windows XP Media Center is a version of Windows specifically designed for
integration of TV and radio features into the operating system. Microsoft
gives the following information:

Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, available preinstalled on Media Center
PCs, allows you to pause and rewind live TV or radio, digitally record an
entire TV series or program category, watch DVDs and videos, organize and
play your music collection, and showcase digital photos.
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 makes it easier to access digital
entertainment wherever you are. Here are some of the top features:

* Multi-tuner support (record two shows at the same time and watch another
previously recorded show)
* Support for digital and high-definition local TV
* Built-in CD and DVD burning
* Windows Movie Maker 2.1 with DVD burning
* Internet radio
* Enhanced setup wizard for easier installation

(from: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/faq.mspx )

You can also read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_xp_media_center

Needless to say, these features, while useful for live media purposes, tend
to significantly interfere with the vast majority of audio applications.
Here is an (unofficial) list of software and hardware we have found to be
unsupported in XP Media Center:

.. Digidesign Pro Tools (all versions).
.. All M-Audio software and hardware.
.. All Steinberg software.
.. Cakewalk SONAR (all versions).
.. The iLok.
.. Syncrosoft USB dongles.
.. Focusrite interfaces.
.. Lexicon Omega/Alpha/Lambda.
.. Edirol interfaces.
.. Alesis USB and Firewire mixers.
.. All MOTU hardware and software.
.. All E-MU hardware and software.
.. Native Instruments software.
.. Waves software.
.. Mackie Spike. Tracktion has been known to work, but is not guaranteed.
.. Novation X-Station series.
.. TC Eletric PowerCore series.
.. Universal Audio UAD-1 cards.
.. All RME hardware.
.. All PreSonus hardware.
.. All TASCAM software and hardware.
.. Blue Snowball and Samson C01 USB Microphones.
.. Line 6 USB hardware and drivers

Keep in mind that this is an unofficial list. These are simply products that
we have found, through our experience and through manufacturer requirements,
to not function properly in XP Media Center. However, you may experience
full functionality with any of the aforementioned products. Swee****er can
only provide support for either XP Home or XP Professional. These are the
versions that we at Swee****er install on our Creation Station series, and
the only versions we have found to be fully compatible with everything we
sell."

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=54&langid=100&itemid=22905

"Not Supported with any version of Pro Tools:

Windows XP Professional x64 Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition"

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/forum/index.php?topic=1995.0;wap2

"Anyone Know A Midi Controller that works with windows xp media center
edition? There are practically NO midis i can find to be compatable. I
wouldnt have bought this stupid laptop if I would have known, because the
whole point in buying this laptop was for using midi live!! Has anyone
successfully used this OS with a midi? If so WHICH , because I will buy
whatever works"
=======

HTH
-pk

Richard Crowley

December 10th 07, 03:57 AM

"geoff" wrote ...
> Glennbo wrote:
>> Doc wrote...
>>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
>>> under
>>> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of
>>> their
>>> hardware with this O/S.
>>>
>>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
>>> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
>>> don't support it".
>>>
>>> ??
>>>
>>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
>>
>> All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
>> OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
>> combination.
>
> Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms
> regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they
> really don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

It does seem to be frought with these kinds of official (or unofficial)
incompatibilities. The Media Center Edition is sufficiently wierd
that I can't think of any reason to subject myself to such voluntary
annoyance.

Note that one difference with MCE (and Vista, et.al.) may also be
more restrictive (and/or expensive) "compatibility certification" from
Microsoft. The MCE is wierd enough, and has a small enough market
share (and likely more hassle from Microsoft) that it sounds like M-
Audio is practicing good business sense and I rather respect them for
that.

Patrick Keenan

December 10th 07, 04:11 AM

"Shenan Stanley" > wrote in message
...
> Doc wrote:
>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
>> under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
>> of their hardware with this O/S.
>>
>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
>> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
>> don't support it".
>>
>> ??
>>
>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
>> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
>> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
>> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
>> have the same look as the other versions?
>>
>> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
>> don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
>> older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
>> Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.
>
> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems between MCE
and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a clean XP Pro install.

> Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional
> with the Media Center components

And those components are what cause the problems with recording, and that is
why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to soundcard) manufacturer
supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.

> and lacking a couple of domain related features...
>
> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their
> support time.

I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio recording
hardware and software are rather more fundamental than this, and that the
manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
support time". Instead, they are trying to save their customers from a
bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6, Steinberg,
produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio recording and
production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that in-house
testing and customer experience has shown to prevent audio recording
hardware from functioning properly. Their gear just does not work
reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or audio
recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it ruined
and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you eventually find
were actually introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of
saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that has been
demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.

HTH
-pk

>
> --
> Shenan Stanley
> MS-MVP
> --
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

December 10th 07, 04:25 AM

Apparently there are at least enough problems that they have chosen
not to support that configuration.
Non support does not mean it will not work.
In fact many users successfully use various products in nonsupported
configurations.

The bottom line is if you have problems and you are in a non supported
path, they can quickly refuse you support so their resources can be
directed to those with supported configurations.
Non supported is not the same as will not work properly.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar

"Doc" > wrote in message
...
>I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of
> their
> hardware with this O/S.
>
> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".
>
> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
> have
> the same look as the other versions?
>
> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
> don't
> cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
> versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
> and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Shenan Stanley

December 10th 07, 07:30 AM

Doc wrote:
> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
> under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
> of their hardware with this O/S.
>
> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response
> is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but
> we don't support it".
>
> ??
>
> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
> something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
> that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
> have the same look as the other versions?
>
> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
> don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
> older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
> Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
> Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP
> Professional with the Media Center components
> and lacking a couple of domain related features...
>
> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save
> their support time.

Patrick Keenan wrote:
> Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems
> between MCE and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a
> clean XP Pro install. And those components are what cause the problems
> with recording,
> [Windows Media Center Components]
> and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to
> soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.
>
> The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.
> I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio
> recording hardware and software are rather more fundamental than
> this, and that the manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in
> this case "to save their support time". Instead, they are trying
> to save their customers from a bad experience.
>
> These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6,
> Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio
> recording and production.
>
> They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that
> in-house testing and customer experience has shown to prevent
> audio recording hardware from functioning properly. Their gear
> just does not work reliably under MCE.
>
> Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or
> audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.
>
> If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it
> ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you
> eventually find were actually introduced by OS services, this is
> far beyond a matter of saving support time.
>
> It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that
> has been demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.

Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I appreciate it!

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Mike Rivers

December 10th 07, 12:23 PM

On Dec 9, 9:04 pm, Doc > wrote:
> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
> XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
> hardware with this O/S.

> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
> "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
> don't support it".

> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
> Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

XP Media Center was a very short-lived version and M-Audio is a
relatively small company. Most of their customers for products like
yours are at least semi-professionals who wouldn't be caught dead
using a computer running Media Center. While they may have tested the
card with MC when that version of Windows was first released, they
don't keep up with updates and don't now or care if Microsoft makes
changes to the OS that might make the M-Audio driver incompatible.

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.

Doc

December 10th 07, 12:40 PM

On Dec 10, 7:23 am, Mike Rivers > wrote:

> As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
> will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
> an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
> the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.
>
> That's what "we don't support it" means.

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer. I tried the media center remote once when I first got it to
verify it worked and haven't even looked at it since. Apparently its
big feature is it lets you use your computer sort of like Tivo.

If it ever gives me problems, I'll try the disable procedure but since
it ain't broke now, etc.

Arny Krueger

December 10th 07, 01:11 PM

"Shenan Stanley" > wrote in message

> Doc wrote:
>> I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's
>> running under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't
>> support any of their hardware with this O/S.
>>
>> The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their
>> response is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full
>> functionality but we don't support it".
>>
>> ??

>> Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or
>> don't they? Can someone clarify what the rationale
>> behind this is? Is there something fundamentally
>> different about the way XP MCE is designed that it's
>> wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have the same look
>> as the other versions?

>> Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other
>> versions don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it
>> runs fine, including older versions of things that
>> aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5 and
>> Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

They run fine superficially, and will run fine for some people who are
lucky.

> Shenan Stanley wrote:

>> Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
>> Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically
>> Windows XP Professional with the Media Center components
>> and lacking a couple of domain related features...

It's the media center components that are the rub.

>> Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this
>> to save their support time.

No, they sometimes just have to face up to some of the nastier aspects of
reality, and Windows MCE is IME such a thing.

> Patrick Keenan wrote:

>> Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the
>> problems between MCE and audio recording gear, unless
>> they're part of a clean XP Pro install. And those components are what
>> cause the problems with recording,
>> [Windows Media Center Components]
>> and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed
>> to soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

>> The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of
>> Windows XP. I think you'll find that the problems
>> between MCE and audio recording hardware and software are rather more
>> fundamental than this, and that the manufacturers are
>> NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
>> support time". Instead, they are trying to save their
>> customers from a bad experience.

Agreed.

>> These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus,
>> Line 6, Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for
>> multitrack audio recording and production.

>> They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services
>> that in-house testing and customer experience has shown to
>> prevent audio recording hardware from functioning properly.

Agreed. MCE was not a bad idea, but the execution is something else.

The problem with MCE is not what in it necessarily does, but what it can do
under some circumstances.

>> Their gear just does not work reliably under MCE.

Oh, I suspect it can work well, but with MCE it is easy to set the stage for
disaster.

>> Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio
>> interfaces or audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you understand the potential of MCE, you understand the potential for
disaster. In MCE it is very easy to set up a timer-driven event that fires
up the TV capture card in the backghround and writes a monster video file to
the hard drive. The TV capture card includes a MPEG encoder that may be
hardware or may be software. If its software, it can take up most of the
CPU. If you're capturing a really nice-looking HDTV program you are
basically writing maybe 5 meg/sec to the hard drive.

What happens if you are trying to record some audio at the same time?

>> If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only
>> to find it ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and
>> pops and dropouts you eventually find were actually
>> introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of saving support
>> time.

>> It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable
>> operation, and that has been demonstrated as being too
>> often unavailable with MCE.

> Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I
> appreciate it!

IME he's speaking the truth.

Mike Rivers

December 10th 07, 02:07 PM

On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc > wrote:

> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
> computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

Laurence Payne

December 10th 07, 02:25 PM

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), Doc >
wrote:

>Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>into XP Pro.

This keeps being mentioned, but no-one can ever quote just WHAT needs
doing :-) If there's a set of changes to make, would someone please
post it?

Laurence Payne

December 10th 07, 02:36 PM

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:07:38 -0800 (PST), Mike Rivers
> wrote:

>> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
>> computer.
>
>I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
>wasn't a very popular idea.

A lot of computers pre-loaded with MCE were recently on the market
here in the UK at attractive prices. I know more than one user who
bought one thinking "Media Centre - thet's bound to solve all my
problems working with sound and video!".

Jaime

December 10th 07, 05:01 PM

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up with
just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see it at
Media Center anyway.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc > wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
>> procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
>> into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
>> computer.
>
> I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
> wasn't a very popular idea.

Mike Rivers

December 10th 07, 06:15 PM

On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" > wrote:

> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
> unpopular idea.

We live on the planet rec.audio.pro where most knowledgeable people
know to avoid things that make their computer more compatible with
games and multimedia entertainment. This tends to 'take over' more
serious audio applications (like Cakewalk, for the people living on
Planet Cakewalk).

I can see it being popular with people who use the "popular"
applications but that's not us.

> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
> millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
> Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

That's another OS that smart audio people avoid, or at least use with
caution since many of the programs and drivers they use are not yet
supported or solidly debugged for Vista.

David B.[_2_]

December 10th 07, 08:46 PM

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box
replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

--

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
> wasn't a very popular idea.

Mike Rivers

December 10th 07, 10:48 PM

On Dec 10, 3:46 pm, "David B." > wrote:
> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?

Other than being an operating system with a remote control, no.

> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box
> replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

Oh. Well, how many people can run Cakewalk on their cable box? Around
here we often as not sing the praises of Windows 98 in instances where
you don't need something newer to run software that you need to run.

Is there ANY advantage to running an audio production program under
Media Center? If so, speak up. If it's only better for replacing a
cable TV component, well, that's something to discuss elsewhere. (or
maybe you ARE elsewhere - I'm in rec.audio.pro)

Arny Krueger

December 10th 07, 10:58 PM

"David B." > wrote in message

> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
> also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is
terribly unique.

Doc

December 11th 07, 02:20 AM

On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" > wrote:

> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
> the Media Center bits.

Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.

http://www.swee****er.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

Doc

December 11th 07, 02:21 AM

On Dec 10, 1:15 pm, Mike Rivers > wrote:
> On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" > wrote:
>
> > Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
> > unpopular idea.
>
> We live on the planet rec.audio.pro where most knowledgeable people
> know to avoid things that make their computer more compatible with
> games and multimedia entertainment. This tends to 'take over' more
> serious audio applications (like Cakewalk, for the people living on
> Planet Cakewalk).

You have impuned his O/S. He WILL have satisfaction my good man.
Pistols at dawn!

Jaime[_2_]

December 11th 07, 03:13 AM

All that procedure does is disable the MCE specific sevices, you are just
essentially not starting the MC interface. It doesn't really make it XP Pro,
you would still have the same issue with Domain Login and cached credentials
as you would with the sevice running.

Of course, this would only further prove the point that these various media
manufactures are just too lazy to test and certify their product on MCE.

At the minimum, they could simple write their install script to warn you and
disable disable these features. Or they could be real programmers and write
the code to make their products work correctly instead of taking the lazy
way out and simply saying it does work.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey!"), FL

"Doc" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" > wrote:
>
>> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just
>> uninstall
>> the Media Center bits.
>
>
> Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
> vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.
>
>
> http://www.swee****er.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

Romeo Rondeau[_4_]

December 11th 07, 03:36 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "David B." > wrote in message
>
>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>> also available in Vista.
>
> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
> video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is
> terribly unique.
>
>

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was designed to do :-)

Richard Crowley

December 11th 07, 05:15 AM

"Jaime" wrote ...
> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
> or unpopular idea.
>
> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
> millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
> Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.
>
> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
> the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up
> with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see
> it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
or something, we'll look you up.

Richard Crowley

December 11th 07, 05:18 AM

"Jaime" wrote ...
> All that procedure does is disable the MCE specific sevices, you are just
> essentially not starting the MC interface. It doesn't really make it XP
> Pro, you would still have the same issue with Domain Login and cached
> credentials as you would with the sevice running.
>
> Of course, this would only further prove the point that these various
> media manufactures are just too lazy to test and certify their product on
> MCE.
>
> At the minimum, they could simple write their install script to warn you
> and disable disable these features. Or they could be real programmers and
> write the code to make their products work correctly instead of taking the
> lazy way out and simply saying it does work.

It would appear that it is you who took the lazy way out with a
blanket condemnation of some very competent vendors who
just gave up trying to work in such a hostile environment that
was never designed for serious production use. Hardware
vendors and application developers can only do what the OS
lets them do. After that you can only reject the OS as unsuitable.

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 01:18 PM

"Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
et
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>
>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>> also available in Vista.
>>
>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>> unique.

> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
> designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the
market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software. I picked up
a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your
system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any
big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV
tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor
compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
ADS and ATI.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special
software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that came with MCE
drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

Jaime

December 11th 07, 02:01 PM

You are right, it wasn't designed for professional audio types, it was
designed to be a home entertainment system center. Just because, it is not
being used in one niche market hardly makes it "Short-lived and unpopular" -
again millions of copies sold over the last five years.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime" wrote ...
>> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
>> or unpopular idea.
>>
>> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
>> millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
>> Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.
>>
>> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just
>> uninstall the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to
>> end up with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might
>> still see it at Media Center anyway.
>
> Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
> the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
> Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
> water in r.a.p-land.
>
> "Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
> audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
> a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
> The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
> only reinforces the revulsion.
>
> MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
> and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
> so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
> or something, we'll look you up.
>

David B.[_2_]

December 11th 07, 02:05 PM

And those packages do nothing special compared to MCE, it's just another
choice for the consumer.
I never said it was any better than 3rd party apps, I was refuting the post
about it not being popular, it is quite popular, with many websites and
forums dedicated to it.

--

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "David B." > wrote in message
>
>
> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
> video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that
> is terribly unique.
>

Romeo Rondeau[_4_]

December 11th 07, 02:20 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
> et
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>>> also available in Vista.
>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>> unique.
>
>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>> designed to do :-)
>
> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the
> market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software. I picked up
> a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

I was talking about the interface.

>
> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your
> system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any
> big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
> are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.
>
> One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV
> tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor
> compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
> ADS and ATI.

Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)

>
> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special
> software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that came with MCE
> drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video input and output
cards use WDM to communicate and they all do it through the OS. It used
to be proprietary (15 years ago), it's all standard stuff now. Hell, I
once hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI input
card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't conceive of any modern
capture card NOT providing drivers for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact
most of the existing ones will be supported already by the OS, just like
they are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP. Sure, you'll need
custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality but the basics are already
supported.

J. Clarke

December 11th 07, 02:33 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
> et
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
>>>> as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
>>>> also available in Vista.
>>>
>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>> unique.
>
>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>> designed to do :-)
>
> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in
> the market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software.
> I picked up a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from
> Amazon for about $60.
>
> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system
> from
> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it
> creates any big black holes while installed, other than creating a
> lot of I/O when you are recording or playing video, or when you are
> time-shifting.
>
> One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the
> TV tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of
> cross-vendor compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR
> software and cards from ADS and ATI.
>
> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide
> special software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that
> came with MCE drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE
> reduces your options.

However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay extra for a
third party package?
MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way you could get
it was with a machine or as an OEM System Builder product, so there's
no scenario of going out and buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

And none of those third party packages let you view the secured HD
content on cable--for that Vista is the only game in town.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Mike Rivers

December 11th 07, 02:42 PM

On Dec 11, 9:05 am, "David B." > wrote:

> I never said it was any better than 3rd party apps, I was refuting the post
> about it not being popular, it is quite popular, with many websites and
> forums dedicated to it.

Define "quite popular." Is it as popular as XP, or Vista? Is it as
popular as Win98? Maybe it's as popular as Linux. There are many
websites and forums dedicated to that OS, too.

But you won't find many end users using Linux-based computers for
professional audio applications with the exception of those who are
using turnkey systems that run under Linux and where the OS (as well
as the whole system) is maintained by the system integrator/
manufacturer. This is a very different thing that buying an off-the-
shelf general purpose computer and using it for multimedia
applications.

There is, however, a very dedicated community of users who would like
you to think that Linux is the only way to do professional audio. They
drop into rec.audio.pro now and then, make some noise, and then go
away for a while. XP-MCE users can feel free to follow suit.

Scott Dorsey

December 11th 07, 03:31 PM

Mike Rivers > wrote:
>There is, however, a very dedicated community of users who would like
>you to think that Linux is the only way to do professional audio. They
>drop into rec.audio.pro now and then, make some noise, and then go
>away for a while. XP-MCE users can feel free to follow suit.

No, I think that is only one person who is responsible for that. What
you see here in rec.audio.pro is crossposted crap that is all either
from flatfish (under various names) or people responding to him.

Not that I don't think Linux is a great system, mind you.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Nigel Barker

December 11th 07, 03:41 PM

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:15:41 -0800, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:

>"Jaime" wrote ...
>> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
>> or unpopular idea.
>>
>> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
>> millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
>> Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.
>>
>> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
>> the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up
>> with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see
>> it at Media Center anyway.
>
>Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
>the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
>Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
>water in r.a.p-land.
>
>"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
>audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
>a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
>The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
>only reinforces the revulsion.
>
>MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
>and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
>so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
>or something, we'll look you up.

It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers that could not support MCE 2005 are able to
support Vista including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain the self same Media Center
code.
--

Cheers

Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
MCE MVP

Mike Rivers

December 11th 07, 04:03 PM

On Dec 11, 10:41 am, Nigel Barker > wrote:

> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers that could not support MCE 2005 are able to
> support Vista including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain the self same Media Center
> code.

Easy. It's all about testing and demand. They know that MCE2005 isn't
very popular with serious audio users, so there are only a handful of
people who will care about whether their hardware or applications will
work. Yet everyone with XP seems to have already committed to Vista
(probably all of their hardware and software stopped working as soon
as Vista was released <g>), so that's where the manufacturers put
their limited development and testing resources.

It may be (as M-Audio suggests) that their product will work under
MCE, but they haven't taken the time to test it extensively and see if
they need to fix any problems.

Richard Crowley

December 11th 07, 04:39 PM

"Nigel Barker" wrote ...
> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
> that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
> including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain
> the self same Media Center code.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that people are lining up to NOT
buy Vista. Delayed driver support is one major reason.

Interesting to see what happens when microsoft newsgroups
are cross posted to the real world.

Mike Rivers

December 11th 07, 04:55 PM

On Dec 11, 11:39 am, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:

> Perhaps you haven't noticed that people are lining up to NOT
> buy Vista. Delayed driver support is one major reason.

That's true, but it's also pretty amazing how many people who use
audio applications have upgraded to Vista and are now pounding on the
virtual doors of their equipment and software vendors with cries of
"Vista has been out for months, and development material was released
to vendors long before that. So when will I be able to use my system
again?"

You can't change human nature's nature for wanting the latest. And for
people buying an off-the-shelf machine, the non-Vista choices are
fairly limited. You can order a new computer from Dell with XP loaded,
but you can't walk into Staples and buy one with XP. I seem to recall
that Dell had (or has) some sort of downgrade plan - maybe they'll
mail you an XP CD if you bought a computer with Vista installed, but
then the user is on his own to install and configure it.

My advice is:
*Don't change what isn't broken
*Wait to buy something until you actually need it
*Make sure before you buy it that what you intend to buy won't break
what you already have working.

Doc (remember Doc, the original poster) came here essentially
following that advice - he wanted to know if what he was thinking of
buying would work with Windows Media Center. Given the kind of loose
answer he received from M-Audio (it works but we don't support it),
it's probably worth a try, but he's been warned that it won't last
forever. If it works, I'd make sure to be careful with any upgrades,
to Windows or any other software he's using. Anything could send it
into "non-supported" territory.

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 05:51 PM

"Nigel Barker" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:15:41 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Jaime" wrote ...
>>> Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was
>>> hardly a "short lived" or unpopular idea.
>>>
>>> The XP version of Media Center has been sold since
>>> 2002. MS has sold millions of copies (and continues to
>>> be sell this version) . The Media Center features are
>>> now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.
>>>
>>> There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you
>>> can't just uninstall the Media Center bits. You can
>>> purposely mess up the install to end up with just the
>>> XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still
>>> see it at Media Center anyway.
>>
>> Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over
>> to
>> the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
>> Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
>> water in r.a.p-land.
>>
>> "Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do
>> serious
>> audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now
>> suffers
>> a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at
>> almost any cost. The vendors of our favorite hardware
>> share our abhorrence which only reinforces the revulsion.
>>
>> MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious
>> audio
>> and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find
>> this
>> so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build
>> a PVR
>> or something, we'll look you up.
>
> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
> that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
> including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that
> contain the self same Media Center code.

Part of the difference is that basic mainstream computer power has increased
in the intervening 2-3 years.

MCE code that would cause a machine with a 2 GHz processor and 512 megs of
RAM running over a 120 GB hard drive hiccough and burp, won't nearly upset
as much a machine with two 4 GHz cores, 4 GB of RAM and a 500 Gb hard drive.

(*note that the so-called 4 GHz cores are actually clocked at as little as
half that - I'm using CPU vendor-speak*)

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 05:55 PM

"Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
>> et
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>> unique.

>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>> designed to do :-)
>>
>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty
>> functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for
>> about $60.

> I was talking about the interface.

Then we're talking about the same stuff.

>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>> your system from your system, you just uninstall it. So
>> far I haven't found that it creates any big black holes
>> while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when
>> you are recording or playing video, or when you are
>> time-shifting. One other thing is that the third party software that
>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>> ADS and ATI.
>
> Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)

Exactly. And WDM seems to be pretty solid.

>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards
>> that came with MCE drivers with other
>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

> I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video
> input and output cards use WDM to communicate and they
> all do it through the OS.

What a concept! ;-)

> It used to be proprietary (15
> years ago), it's all standard stuff now.

Exactly. This asks the question - why did MCE require all those other
changes?

> Hell, I once
> hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI
> input card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't
> conceive of any modern capture card NOT providing drivers
> for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact most of the existing
> ones will be supported already by the OS, just like they
> are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP.

Apparently MCE requires more than just WDM drivers, because the packages I
see that work both stand-alone and with MCE have a special setup program and
more code that gets installed for MCE.

> Sure, you'll need custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality

There you go.

> but the basics are already supported.

Yes, MCE seems to be based on WDM drivers, but it seems to need more.

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 06:00 PM

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
>> et
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>
>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>> unique.
>>
>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>> designed to do :-)
>>
>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty functional
>> HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.
>>
>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>> your system from
>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you are
>> recording or playing video, or when you are
>> time-shifting.
>>
>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>> ADS and ATI.

>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay
> extra for a third party package?

The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up an ADS HDTV/video
capture card on Amazon for like $60-70. I think it was cheaper than the
cheapest HDTV card that I could find that would work with MCE, and not by
just a little.

> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people to
learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own hardware.

> And none of those third party packages let you view the
> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
> game in town.

On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to have one of
their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I know of no PC
accessories that take a card.

I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who are
actually delivering it nationwide today.

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 06:22 PM

"Glennbo" > wrote in
message
3.184
> In the
> killer robot "Arny Krueger" > grabbed
> the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed
> these buttons...
>
>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.
>
> Howzat?

Ooops, I believed too many press releases that came up when I googled MCE.

> http://www.mwave.com/mwave/Skusearch.hmx?scriteria=AA30890

I don't see the dreaded word "OEM".

> I just built an HTPC with Windows XP MCE 2005 on it, and
> it's a legally licensed copy. I don't use the PVR
> functionality of MCE because I bought Beyond TV, which is
> superior IMO, but I do use some of the other
> functionality of MCE.

Do tell.

> I do *NOT* use this machine as my
> DAW, and would never in a million year choose MCE for
> serious audio or video work, but for hooking up with my
> HDTV, I've had no compatibility issues or problems.

Beyond TV seems to be head-and-shoulders above the usual
packaged-with-the-card software. OTOH at least one of the software packages
that came with one of my HDTV cards looks like a de-featured version of
Beyond TV.

Scott Dorsey

December 11th 07, 06:22 PM

Nigel Barker wrote:
> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
> that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
> including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain
> the self same Media Center code.

Strange, from what I see, vendors of audio cards are having horrible
nightmares trying to get their products to operate properly under Vista.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Arny Krueger

December 11th 07, 06:26 PM

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message

> Nigel Barker wrote:

>> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
>> that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
>> including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that
>> contain the self same Media Center code.

> Strange, from what I see, vendors of audio cards are
> having horrible nightmares trying to get their products
> to operate properly under Vista. --scott

There was a big change in how the Windows Mixer works, among other things.
Supposedly it will all be for the better in the long run.

I think that Vista will be better in the long run. I think they released it
at least a year too soon for the marketplace and the hardware SOTA.

Many audio card vendors don't have in-house driver writers, and are
dependent on subcontractors.

Jaime

December 11th 07, 10:55 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >
> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people to
> learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own hardware.

XP MCE 2005 can be purchased at a variety of outlets and has been that way
for years, no need to download; it costs ~$110.

>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>> game in town.
>
> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to have one
> of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I know of no PC
> accessories that take a card.
>
> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who are
> actually delivering it nationwide today.

There are several system made that have cablecards built in to get direct HD
through Vista Media Center.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida

Chris Hornbeck

December 12th 07, 02:59 AM

Complaints-To:

Still a pretty lame attempt. You need to work on
content and attitude. The effort will also help
you personally.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

D C[_2_]

December 12th 07, 03:40 AM

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> Complaints-To:
>
> Still a pretty lame attempt. You need to work on
> content and attitude. The effort will also help
> you personally.

Other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

D C[_2_]

December 12th 07, 03:51 AM

Mike Rivers wrote:

> My advice is:
> *Don't change what isn't broken
> *Wait to buy something until you actually need it
> *Make sure before you buy it that what you intend to buy won't break
> what you already have working.

Even when I was in sales, I'd give similar advice quite often. Earlier
tonight, I told a friend that he didn't necessarily need a piece of
equipment that someone else insisted he needed.

> Doc (remember Doc, the original poster)

Very Arlo Guthrie!

Arny Krueger

December 12th 07, 12:48 PM

"Jaime" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >
>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.
>
> XP MCE 2005 can be purchased at a variety of outlets and
> has been that way for years, no need to download; it
> costs ~$110.
>>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>>> game in town.
>>
>> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD
>> content is to have one of their boxes, or a device that
>> takes one of their cards. I know of no PC accessories
>> that take a card.

>> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no
>> providers who are actually delivering it nationwide
>> today.

> There are several system made that have cablecards built
> in to get direct HD through Vista Media Center.

Here's an example:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070109-8576.html

Looks a lot klugey.

So has anybody hacked either cablecards or their alleged secure connection
to the PC yet? ;-)

Mike Rivers

December 12th 07, 12:59 PM

On Dec 11, 10:51 pm, D C > wrote:

> Even when I was in sales, I'd give similar advice quite often. Earlier
> tonight, I told a friend that he didn't necessarily need a piece of
> equipment that someone else insisted he needed.

When the VLZ-Pro series of mixers was introduced, someone asked on a
forum if he should replace his VLZ with a VLZ Pro. Knowing what the
differences were, I advised him that unless he had certain specific
problems or recording situations (not typical of your usual band guy
with a home studio) to keep his VLZ, save his money now, and make his
next upgrade to a more recording-oriented mixer such as the Mackie 8-
bus. I figured that, as well as being realistic advice, it would make
him feel good about his original investment - that the mixer he bought
just a couple of years ago wan't obsolete yet.

Well, I got "caught" and yelled at. The Mackie marketing people seemed
to think that he had his wallet open and I told him not to spend money
on a new Mackie. That's probably part of why I'm not a vice president
(or ex) at Mackie today. ;)

Bob Masta

December 12th 07, 01:33 PM

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:26:25 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>There was a big change in how the Windows Mixer works, among other things.
>Supposedly it will all be for the better in the long run.
<snip>

I'm not too keen on this business of preventing a program from
controlling the mixer. I understand that Vista only gives you *part*
of the output range, just in case it decides it needs to break in on
your once-in-a-lifetime recording session to announce that it
needs to have its diaper changed. Grrr....

Best regards,

Bob Masta

DAQARTA v3.50
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, FREE Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!

Arny Krueger

December 12th 07, 02:52 PM

"Bob Masta" > wrote in message

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:26:25 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> There was a big change in how the Windows Mixer works,
>> among other things. Supposedly it will all be for the
>> better in the long run.
> <snip>
>
> I'm not too keen on this business of preventing a program
> from controlling the mixer. I understand that Vista only
> gives you *part* of the output range, just in case it
> decides it needs to break in on your once-in-a-lifetime
> recording session to announce that it
> needs to have its diaper changed. Grrr....

I project a long service life for XP. ;-)

Alf P. Steinbach

December 12th 07, 03:17 PM

* Arny Krueger:
> "Bob Masta" > wrote in message
>
>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:26:25 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> There was a big change in how the Windows Mixer works,
>>> among other things. Supposedly it will all be for the
>>> better in the long run.
>> <snip>
>>
>> I'm not too keen on this business of preventing a program
>> from controlling the mixer. I understand that Vista only
>> gives you *part* of the output range, just in case it
>> decides it needs to break in on your once-in-a-lifetime
>> recording session to announce that it
>> needs to have its diaper changed. Grrr....
>
> I project a long service life for XP. ;-)

Two and one years ago I predicted that OS/X would start taking over from
Windows.

However, Apple has not learned, they're doing the same enterprise focus
and vendor lock-in thing that Microsoft has done, and they're even doing
it worse. They could have displaced Microsoft easily just by ditching
their policy of /not selling/ their products. How can managers of a
large corporation be so incredibly stupid, it's beyond my ken.

So, it seems I was wrong: pest or cholera, that's the question.

Cheers,

- Alf

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Geoff

December 12th 07, 10:20 PM

Mike Rivers wrote:
> On Dec 11, 10:51 pm, D C > wrote:
>
>> Even when I was in sales, I'd give similar advice quite often.
>> Earlier tonight, I told a friend that he didn't necessarily need a
>> piece of equipment that someone else insisted he needed.
>
> When the VLZ-Pro series of mixers was introduced, someone asked on a
> forum if he should replace his VLZ with a VLZ Pro. Knowing what the
> differences were, I advised him that unless he had certain specific
> problems or recording situations (not typical of your usual band guy
> with a home studio) to keep his VLZ, save his money now, and make his
> next upgrade to a more recording-oriented mixer such as the Mackie 8-
> bus. I figured that, as well as being realistic advice, it would make
> him feel good about his original investment - that the mixer he bought
> just a couple of years ago wan't obsolete yet.
>
> Well, I got "caught" and yelled at. The Mackie marketing people seemed
> to think that he had his wallet open and I told him not to spend money
> on a new Mackie. That's probably part of why I'm not a vice president
> (or ex) at Mackie today. ;)

So it's clear that Mackie values it's customers' money more that it's
customers' goodwill and respect ....

geoff

Mike Rivers

December 13th 07, 12:50 PM

On Dec 12, 5:20 pm, "geoff" > wrote:

> So it's clear that Mackie values it's customers' money more that it's
> customers' goodwill and respect ....

When good will is eroding, you need the money in order to stay in
business. <g> Mackie's ambassadors of good will are in their Tech
Support department, but even they slip up some times.

J. Clarke

December 13th 07, 02:52 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
>
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
>>> et
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>>> unique.
>>>
>>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>>> designed to do :-)
>>>
>>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty functional
>>> HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.
>>>
>>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>>> your system from
>>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you are
>>> recording or playing video, or when you are
>>> time-shifting.
>>>
>>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
>>> have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
>>> example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
>>> ADS and ATI.
>
>>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.
>
>> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay
>> extra for a third party package?
>
> The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up an ADS
> HDTV/video capture card on Amazon for like $60-70. I think it was
> cheaper than the cheapest HDTV card that I could find that would
> work
> with MCE, and not by just a little.

Which ADS HDTV product doesn't support MCE?

>> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
>> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
>> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
>> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.
>
> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people
> to learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own
> hardware.

Good luck activating it. If you wanted the System Builder product all
you had to do was shell out 150 bucks or so to newegg, but it wasn't
something you'd find on the shelf at CompUSA--you had to go out and
look for it.

>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>> game in town.
>
> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to
> have
> one of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I
> know
> of no PC accessories that take a card.

The technology is called "Cable Card" and several companies are making
PCs that support it, all using ATI tuners and running Vista. The
catch is that you have to buy the tuner and the PC together and they
have to be certified by Cable Labs as a unit.

You can also access the content from a PC using a networked HDTivo.

> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who
> are actually delivering it nationwide today.

I know of no cable company that is _not_ doing so. Local stations and
a few other channels are generally unscrambled QAM, but all the
premium channels are scrambled in one manner or another. In some
cases they'll show the first ten minutes on one frequency and then
switch to another, in others the signal can't be deciphered by QAM
hardware at all.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke

December 13th 07, 02:55 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>
>
>> Nigel Barker wrote:
>
>>> It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
>>> that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
>>> including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that
>>> contain the self same Media Center code.
>
>> Strange, from what I see, vendors of audio cards are
>> having horrible nightmares trying to get their products
>> to operate properly under Vista. --scott
>
> There was a big change in how the Windows Mixer works, among other
> things. Supposedly it will all be for the better in the long run.
>
> I think that Vista will be better in the long run. I think they
> released it at least a year too soon for the marketplace and the
> hardware SOTA.

Whenever they released it there would have been this scramble to catch
up. Many of the problems that have been occurring have been things
that Microsoft told the developers ten years ago that they had to stop
doing, and they went on with it anyway and now it's bitten them in the
butt.

> Many audio card vendors don't have in-house driver writers, and are
> dependent on subcontractors.

I would tend to avoid such products unless they had some special
feature that I needed desperately and couldn't find elsewhere.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Arny Krueger

December 13th 07, 03:25 PM

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
>>
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "Romeo Rondeau" > wrote in message
>>>> et
>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>>> "David B." > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
>>>>>>> It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
>>>>>>> people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
>>>>>>> job, it's also available in Vista.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
>>>>>> that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
>>>>>> really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
>>>>>> unique.
>>>>
>>>>> It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
>>>>> designed to do :-)
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
>>>> If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
>>>> to be the best software. I picked up a pretty
>>>> functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for
>>>> about $60.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
>>>> your system from
>>>> your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
>>>> found that it creates any big black holes while
>>>> installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
>>>> are recording or playing video, or when you are
>>>> time-shifting.
>>
>>>> One other thing is that the third party software that
>>>> comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems
>>>> to have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility.
>>>> For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and
>>>> cards from ADS and ATI.

>>>> If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
>>>> provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
>>>> I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
>>>> vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

>>> However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why
>>> pay extra for a third party package?

The point is that MCE doesn't come bundled with lots of machines.

>> The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up
>> an ADS HDTV/video capture card on Amazon for like
>> $60-70. I think it was cheaper than the cheapest HDTV
>> card that I could find that would work
>> with MCE, and not by just a little.

> Which ADS HDTV product doesn't support MCE?

I don't know offhand, but there were some products that I saw at Micro
Center that did not say that they supported MCE. The ADS card I have
supports MCE, but you have to run a separate setup program.

>>> MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
>>> you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
>>> Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
>>> buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

>> Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS
>> forces people to learn how to spell Torrent if they want
>> to build their own hardware.

> Good luck activating it. If you wanted the System
> Builder product all you had to do was shell out 150 bucks
> or so to newegg, but it wasn't something you'd find on
> the shelf at CompUSA--you had to go out and look for it.

Not to mention that Newegg had to hang all the usual OEM strings on every
purchase.

>>> And none of those third party packages let you view the
>>> secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
>>> game in town.

>> On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD
>> content is to have
>> one of their boxes, or a device that takes one of their
>> cards. I know
>> of no PC accessories that take a card.

> The technology is called "Cable Card" and several
> companies are making PCs that support it, all using ATI
> tuners and running Vista.

I've seen the ATI box, which appears to be USB-connected. I've got some
concerns about running HiDef video over a USB connection.

> The catch is that you have to
> buy the tuner and the PC together and they have to be
> certified by Cable Labs as a unit.

I wouldn't stake my life on that holding together over the long haul.

> You can also access the content from a PC using a
> networked HDTivo.

That could be awkward.

>> I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no
>> providers who are actually delivering it nationwide
>> today.

> I know of no cable company that is _not_ doing so.

AFAIK Comcast is only providing HDTV around here using the means I described
above.

> Local
> stations and a few other channels are generally
> unscrambled QAM, but all the premium channels are
> scrambled in one manner or another.

That makes sense, but its awkward.

> In some cases
> they'll show the first ten minutes on one frequency and
> then switch to another, in others the signal can't be
> deciphered by QAM hardware at all.

Hopefully, they'll eventually provide all content on the same basis they
provide NTSC channels today.

Scramble the premium like HBO, and let people tune in their own channels
for content like Speed, TBS, History, A&E, Discovery, etc.

Providing an open implementation of the infrastructure that supports Cable
Card would be a good move.