How to deal with ear fatigue?

[Nick Delonas]

Hi folks,

I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.

Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
means losing valuable time.

Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

--Nick

[D C[_2_]]

Nick Delonas wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
> have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.
>
> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
> means losing valuable time.
>
> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
> dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?


Whenever possible, I'll work on a different song for a while. I think
it's standard to want to change things when approached with fresh ears.

[Neil Rutman]

What I've learned from some great mixers is the need to learn what sounds
good at very low volumes so you can mix a long time before serious fatigue
sets in. Certainly you need to keep turning up the knob as you go but keep
it brief. Fairly frequent 5 minute breaks helps as well if you've got the
time.

Neil R

"Nick Delonas" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hi folks,
>
> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
> have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.
>
> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
> means losing valuable time.
>
> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
> dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?
>
> --Nick

[D C[_2_]]

Neil Rutman wrote:

> What I've learned from some great mixers is the need to learn what sounds
> good at very low volumes so you can mix a long time before serious fatigue
> sets in. Certainly you need to keep turning up the knob as you go but keep
> it brief. Fairly frequent 5 minute breaks helps as well if you've got the
> time.

I certainly agree about mixing, but fatigue can set in at the recording
stage, too, at any level. Especially if the song sucks.

[Frank Stearns]

Nick Delonas > writes:

>Hi folks,

>I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
>have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.

>Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
>means losing valuable time.

>Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
>dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

Turn it down a little, or perhaps a lot, depending on what it is and how long you've
been working.

Might take some getting used to, but other than some shorter-duration higher volume
spot checks, you might find a lower monitor volume a good thing all around.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Nick Delonas wrote:

> Hi folks,

> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes
> that I have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear
> fatigue.

The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift - popular:
temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors of judgement.
There is also the general issue that it is too easy to hear soft parts if
you monitor at too high a sound level, leading to a mix that is not very
suitable for people who listen in a normal home environment.

> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
> means losing valuable time.

> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
> dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

Align monitor sound level with a sound level meter, something like having a
1 kHz sinewave at -20 dB ref. full scale play back no louder than 70 dB SPL
comes to mind.

The simplest possible solution to your issue may be a 12 to 15 dB fixed
attenuator on the input of the power amp.

> --Nick


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:53:37 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
> wrote:

>> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes
>> that I have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear
>> fatigue.
>
>The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift - popular:
>temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors of judgement.
>There is also the general issue that it is too easy to hear soft parts if
>you monitor at too high a sound level, leading to a mix that is not very
>suitable for people who listen in a normal home environment.

I think he is talking about a different kind of ear fatigue, in fact
more of a sort of artistic brain fatigue in which a tune is heard so
often that the critical faculties switch off and one finds oneself
ignoring all kinds of error in a sort of self defence mechanism.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:15:05 -0500, Nick Delonas > wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
>have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.
>
>Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
>means losing valuable time.
>
>Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
>dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

Turn your monitors down. Crap sounds better when punched out loud.

You must have something else to do in your life than recording this
song. Go and do it for a few hours.

How are you "working on" the song? If it needs all that much fixing
at the mixing stage, maybe you should re-record a better performance.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Don Pearce wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:53:37 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
> > wrote:

>>> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>>> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes
>>> that I have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call
>>> ear fatigue.

>> The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift -
>> popular: temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors
>> of judgement. There is also the general issue that it is too easy to
>> hear soft parts if you monitor at too high a sound level, leading to
>> a mix that is not very suitable for people who listen in a normal
>> home environment.

> I think he is talking about a different kind of ear fatigue, in fact
> more of a sort of artistic brain fatigue in which a tune is heard so
> often that the critical faculties switch off and one finds oneself
> ignoring all kinds of error in a sort of self defence mechanism.

Erm, Officer, can we settle this somehow, let us tentatively assume the
possibility that say I confess to typing 5 chrs pr. minute over the
newsgroup speed limit, not that I hereby agree in any wrongdoing ...

> d


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 12:10:39 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
> wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:53:37 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
>> > wrote:
>
>>>> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>>>> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes
>>>> that I have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call
>>>> ear fatigue.
>
>>> The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift -
>>> popular: temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors
>>> of judgement. There is also the general issue that it is too easy to
>>> hear soft parts if you monitor at too high a sound level, leading to
>>> a mix that is not very suitable for people who listen in a normal
>>> home environment.
>
>> I think he is talking about a different kind of ear fatigue, in fact
>> more of a sort of artistic brain fatigue in which a tune is heard so
>> often that the critical faculties switch off and one finds oneself
>> ignoring all kinds of error in a sort of self defence mechanism.
>
>Erm, Officer, can we settle this somehow, let us tentatively assume the
>possibility that say I confess to typing 5 chrs pr. minute over the
>newsgroup speed limit, not that I hereby agree in any wrongdoing ...
>

Well, excuse me for having an alternative opinion...

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 9, 4:53 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:

> The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift - popular:
> temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors of judgement.

That's one kind of ear fatigue, but my gut feeling reading the
original post (and this could of course be incorrect) is that he's
talking about mental fatigue. He's just been working on the same thing
too much and can't tell when he's making progress.

> Align monitor sound level with a sound level meter, something like having a
> 1 kHz sinewave at -20 dB ref. full scale play back no louder than 70 dB SPL
> comes to mind.

It's good to have a reference mark on the monitor volume control
(assuming you HAVE a monitor volume control - too many people today
don't) but you don't want to calibrate with a sine wave. Depending on
the room acoustics, for the same power going to the speaker, you could
measure anything over a 30 dB range depending on where you put the
meter. The way to do this is with pink noise.

The SPL figure that's usually tossed around is 83 dB for one speaker
or 85 dB for both speakers measured at the listening position, for
whatever you choose as your nominal operating level, usually between
-20 and -16 dBFS. But I think that's too loud for my taste, so I have
my system set several dB below that. However, a lot of people don't
have a "nominal" operating level, or don't know what it is, since
their goal is full scale all tracks all the time. <g> That in itself
can make for very tiring listening.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Don Pearce wrote:

>> Erm, Officer, can we settle this somehow, let us tentatively assume
>> the possibility that say I confess to typing 5 chrs pr. minute over
>> the newsgroup speed limit, not that I hereby agree in any wrongdoing

> Well, excuse me for having an alternative opinion...

Do you thereby mean that I did not type too hastily, ie. prior to reading
what he actually wrote?

> d


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[[email protected]]

On 2007-12-09 said:
>Turn it down a little, or perhaps a lot, depending on what it is
>and how long you've
>been working.
>Might take some getting used to, but other than some
>shorter-duration higher volume
>spot checks, you might find a lower monitor volume a good thing all
>around.
I learned this one years ago and it's served me well. THis
will take some getting used to, but do it. MOnitor at
lower volume, turn it up for spot checks, and occasionally
turn it up and listen from a good spot in another room to
spot check.




Richard webb,
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> On Dec 9, 4:53 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:

>> The cause of ear fatigue, also known as temporary threshold shift -
>> popular: temporary deafness, is too loud noise. TSS leads to errors
>> of judgement.

> That's one kind of ear fatigue, but my gut feeling reading the
> original post (and this could of course be incorrect) is that he's
> talking about mental fatigue. He's just been working on the same thing
> too much and can't tell when he's making progress.

Could be, I concede to having typed too hastily, ie. without considering
that aspects of it.

>> Align monitor sound level with a sound level meter, something like
>> having a 1 kHz sinewave at -20 dB ref. full scale play back no
>> louder than 70 dB SPL comes to mind.

> It's good to have a reference mark on the monitor volume control
> (assuming you HAVE a monitor volume control - too many people today
> don't) but you don't want to calibrate with a sine wave. Depending on
> the room acoustics, for the same power going to the speaker, you could
> measure anything over a 30 dB range depending on where you put the
> meter. The way to do this is with pink noise.

Yoo're right.

> The SPL figure that's usually tossed around is 83 dB for one speaker
> or 85 dB for both speakers measured at the listening position, for
> whatever you choose as your nominal operating level, usually between
> -20 and -16 dBFS.

That would be the loudest safe level, but it is often louder than reasonable
playback level in a real world living room. You need to be able to play that
loud in case you need to check background things.

> But I think that's too loud for my taste, so I have
> my system set several dB below that.

Too loud just provokes my tinnitus, it's a great tutor, but also a stern
one, not recommended.

> However, a lot of people don't
> have a "nominal" operating level, or don't know what it is, since
> their goal is full scale all tracks all the time. <g> That in itself
> can make for very tiring listening.

AFFIRMATIVE!


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:48:36 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
> wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>
>>> Erm, Officer, can we settle this somehow, let us tentatively assume
>>> the possibility that say I confess to typing 5 chrs pr. minute over
>>> the newsgroup speed limit, not that I hereby agree in any wrongdoing
>
>> Well, excuse me for having an alternative opinion...
>
>Do you thereby mean that I did not type too hastily, ie. prior to reading
>what he actually wrote?
>

I have no way of estimating how hastily you type. What I was saying
was that having read what he wrote, I saw nothing in his post that
suggested that the sound might be too loud, but rather that he was
becoming fatigued with the repetition.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 9, 8:54 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:

> > The SPL figure that's usually tossed around is 83 dB for one speaker
> > or 85 dB for both speakers measured at the listening position, for
> > whatever you choose as your nominal operating level, usually between
> > -20 and -16 dBFS.
>
> That would be the loudest safe level, but it is often louder than reasonable
> playback level in a real world living room.

The 85 dB SPL is a SMPTE recommended standard for film mixing rooms.
That may also be the target for playback in a commercial theater, and
in many home theaters (that I usually think are too loud). The
important thing is to be consistent with your basic monitoring level
while mixing. Turn it up to make sure that it doesn't get exciting or
interesting until it gets too loud, turn it down to make sure
something important doesn't drop out of the mix, but do your mixing at
a reasonable and comfortable level for your room.

[Scott Dorsey]

Nick Delonas > wrote:
>
>I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
>have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.

Some of it is ear fatigue, some of it is just fatigue.

>Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
>means losing valuable time.

No, not at all! Time spend relaxing is just as valuable as time spent
glued to the monitors. You are not a machine and you need a break.

>Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
>dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

1. Take breaks. A lot of them. When you work with analogue tape, you
are forced into taking breaks because you're waiting for rewinding
and dubbing and the like. In the digital world, you can work a lot
faster, but working faster is not always working more productively.
You need to pace yourself.

2. Use monitoring that isn't shrieky and harsh, and monitor at a fairly
low level. This keeps you from losing your ability to hear properly
during sessions, but it only works when accompanied by #1.

3. When you start having trouble, stop, and go do something else for
a while. There's always something else to be done in the studio,
from making up patch cables to fixing equipment to changing light
bulbs and making computer backups. You can't just do one thing all
the time without going crazy.

4. Get a really comfortable chair.
--scott
>
>--Nick


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[david correia]

In article >,
Nick Delonas > wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
> have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.
>
> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
> means losing valuable time.
>
> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
> dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?
>
> --Nick




It's like wanting to run long distances. Or to develop muscles.

You will slowly be able to keep your concentration sharp for longer and
longer periods of time if you consistently continue to engineer.




David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

[news to me]

When its nice out - I go shoot a little basketball (if its available to me)
When its not - I go read for awhile - something light

I take a break from listening to anything and then come back in awhile - the
little break usually opens things back up for me


"Nick Delonas" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hi folks,
>
> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes that I
> have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call ear fatigue.
>
> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
> means losing valuable time.
>
> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips on
> dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?
>
> --Nick

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Don Pearce wrote:

>> Do you thereby mean that I did not type too hastily, ie. prior to
>> reading what he actually wrote?

> I have no way of estimating how hastily you type. What I was saying
> was that having read what he wrote, I saw nothing in his post that
> suggested that the sound might be too loud, but rather that he was
> becoming fatigued with the repetition.

Which is why I say I typed to fast.

> d
>
> --
> Pearce Consulting
> http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> On Dec 9, 8:54 am, "Peter Larsen" > wrote:

>>> The SPL figure that's usually tossed around is 83 dB for one speaker
>>> or 85 dB for both speakers measured at the listening position, for
>>> whatever you choose as your nominal operating level, usually between
>>> -20 and -16 dBFS.

>> That would be the loudest safe level, but it is often louder than
>> reasonable playback level in a real world living room.

> The 85 dB SPL is a SMPTE recommended standard for film mixing rooms.
> That may also be the target for playback in a commercial theater, and
> in many home theaters (that I usually think are too loud).

Room size matters.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




The
> important thing is to be consistent with your basic monitoring level
> while mixing. Turn it up to make sure that it doesn't get exciting or
> interesting until it gets too loud, turn it down to make sure
> something important doesn't drop out of the mix, but do your mixing at
> a reasonable and comfortable level for your room.

[Nick Delonas]

In article <5af49acd-22bc-427f-bce2-18a51255dd02
@w40g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, says...
> That's one kind of ear fatigue, but my gut feeling reading the
> original post (and this could of course be incorrect) is that he's
> talking about mental fatigue. He's just been working on the same thing
> too much and can't tell when he's making progress.

Yeah, that's really it. I generally do keep the volume pretty low. I
certainly never get ringing in the ears.

I did, by the way, decide that the guitar track on this song was the
problem and re-recorded it rather than continue trying to fix the old
one in the mix. The old one was simply too distorted and harsh sounding
to fix. I resisted re-doing it because the performance was good.

Thank you everyone. Every response was interesting and useful. This is
such a great group.


--Nick

[Nick Delonas]

In article >, says...
> 4. Get a really comfortable chair.

LOL! My chair DOES really suck. The back is broken and held together
with rope and a bungee cord, which is far from optimal. :-\

I really should go out and get another one.

--Nick

[Sean Conolly]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Nick Delonas > wrote:

>>Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but that
>>means losing valuable time.
>
> No, not at all! Time spend relaxing is just as valuable as time spent
> glued to the monitors. You are not a machine and you need a break.

FWIW, there's nothing gained by spending extra hours working on something
you won't like the next day.

I run into this in software development all the time. I get stuck on problem
late into the night without success, but when I walk in the next day with a
fresh mind I can find the problem in a few minutes. Your mind hits a point
where all critical thought and analysis just go out the window, and it's
time to quit.

.... and post to R.A.P. instead :-)

Sean

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Robert Morein wrote:

> On Dec 9, 2:15 pm, Nick Delonas > wrote:
>> Hi folks,

>> I find that after a few hours of working on a tune, I start liking
>> whatever I hear, which causes me to make some pretty bad mistakes
>> that I have to undo the next day. I guess this is what they call
>> ear fatigue.

>> Normally, I just quit for the day when this starts to happen, but
>> that means losing valuable time.

>> Do you know what I'm talking about and, if so, do you have any tips
>> on dealing with this issue and increasing productivity?

> Usually I call in my buddy Jack Daniels to help with the mix. Things
> clear up immediately!

From google rather than from giganews .... hmmm ...

> Bob Morein
> (215) 646-4894

[Scott Dorsey]

Nick Delonas > wrote:
>In article >, says...
>> 4. Get a really comfortable chair.
>
>LOL! My chair DOES really suck. The back is broken and held together
>with rope and a bungee cord, which is far from optimal. :-\
>
>I really should go out and get another one.

Look in the yellow pages under "used office furniture." High end
executive chairs can be had used for very little money.

It's not as good as it was when the dot-com blowout was happening and
offices full of Aeron chairs were being sold for pennies on the dollar,
but there is a lot of cheap comfortable stuff out there.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."