Hafler P3000 Up in Smoke!

[ComradeMartin]

I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on and I
heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;

1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?
3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?

Thanks in advance.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 8, 9:19 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:
> I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on and I
> heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
> switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
>
> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?

I LOVE "is this typical?" questions like this? You think maybe they
build them to smoke? Of course it's not typical. Something broke and
now you have to get it fixed.

> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?

Less than $200

> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?

Take it to a repair shop.

[D C[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
>
> I LOVE "is this typical?" questions like this? You think maybe they
> build them to smoke? Of course it's not typical.


Reminds me of a story an audio sales rep used to tell. He was demoing
some amps, and one of them went on fire. Are a major commotion at the
dealership, the fire was finally put out by several employees. The rep
then took out his pad and asked, "How many would you like?"

[D C[_2_]]

Are a major commotion

"After"

[Eeyore]

D C wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> >> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
> >
> > I LOVE "is this typical?" questions like this? You think maybe they
> > build them to smoke? Of course it's not typical.
>
> Reminds me of a story an audio sales rep used to tell. He was demoing
> some amps, and one of them went on fire.

Reminds me of a design I did for Studiomaster 18 yrs ago.

They built a pre-production model to get the feel for it and wired up part
of it wrong.

On switching it on there was apparently a great deal of smoke and stuff.
When the smoke had cleared there was one LED still illuminated. It was the
'fault LED' ! Makes me chuckle every time I think of it.

Graham

[D C[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

> On switching it on there was apparently a great deal of smoke and stuff.
> When the smoke had cleared there was one LED still illuminated. It was the
> 'fault LED' ! Makes me chuckle every time I think of it.

You're chuckling, but you cut out the punch line!

[ComradeMartin]

Bob,

So, I took your advice and popped the top off but did not see any brownish
goo anywhere. I then plugged it in and turned it on to see where the problem
might be. The switch sparked/sizzled slightly and then I immediately
unplugged it. I think I know what you mean about a "tough amp to service".
It looks to me like one would have to take just about everything out of the
casing to get to the switch, quite a hassle. Do any of the components inside
hold a charge after unplugging it? If so, how long? I'm thinking that I
could order the switch and put it in myself.


"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
> news:rgI6j.6013$jq2.3173@pd7urf1no...
>>I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on and
>>I heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
>>switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
>>
>> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
>> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?
>> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
> That's a tough amp to service, since it is one of the few made with
> surface mount technology. The symptom you describe is not particular to
> Haflers. You can pop the cover and look for brownish goo coming out of one
> of the large capacitors. It is either one of those, or something else in
> the power supply -- transformer or rectifier, since a failure in the rest
> of the circuit would cause a "rail fuse" to blow, without smoke. The
> Hafler does have a low current regulated supply, but I don't think a
> problem there would be quite so dramatic.
>
> "High Desert Audio" in Tempe, Arizona, is what remains of Hafler, and I
> believe they do still service work.
>
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511
>
>
>

[ComradeMartin]

Mike Rivers Quote: "I LOVE "is this typical?" questions like this? You think
maybe they
build them to smoke? Of course it's not typical."

No, I didn't think they make them to go up in smoke. I asked the question in
this newsgroup because this is where I would likely find out if this was a
known issue with this amp. It is a fact that entire lots of electronic
components can be improperly manufactured and thus become a "known problem".
This just happened with my dishwasher. Maytag recalled hundreds of thousands
of components that could cause a fire. We had a technician come to our house
and replace the part for free.

Seemed like a good place to pose such a question, to a bunch of audio
recording experts..............



"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 8, 9:19 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:
>> I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on
>> and I
>> heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
>> switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
>>
>> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
>
> I LOVE "is this typical?" questions like this? You think maybe they
> build them to smoke? Of course it's not typical. Something broke and
> now you have to get it fixed.
>
>> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?
>
> Less than $200
>
>> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?
>
> Take it to a repair shop.

[ComradeMartin]

This Hafler is only about 3 years old. As soon as I bought it I remember
they were filing for bankruptcy, or something like that. So, I don't know if
it has the Alco switch that you mentioned. One thing I forgot to say is that
the switch was sticking for a few weeks before this happened. Sometimes when
I tried to turn it on the switch would get stuck and not go on so and I
would have to try several times to get it to go on. In addition, this amp
has not been pushed hard at all. Not sure if that makes a difference but
they are hooked up to a pair of Dynaudio BM6's and rarely do I push them
hard. Anyway, your comment about the short makes much more sense. I have
seen an electrical short on a circuit breaker and the two appear the same to
me.

Do any internal components hold a charge after unplugging the unit? I'd like
to change the switch myself. If the switch is the problem then I've saved a
bundle and if I'm wrong I haven't lost much. However, I don't want to get a
shock, if that's possible.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.



"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
> news:TUJ6j.9937$iU.6091@pd7urf2no...
>> Bob,
>>
>> So, I took your advice and popped the top off but did not see any
>> brownish goo anywhere. I then plugged it in and turned it on to see where
>> the problem might be. The switch sparked/sizzled slightly and then I
>> immediately unplugged it. I think I know what you mean about a "tough amp
>> to service". It looks to me like one would have to take just about
>> everything out of the casing to get to the switch, quite a hassle. Do any
>> of the components inside hold a charge after unplugging it? If so, how
>> long? I'm thinking that I could order the switch and put it in myself.
>>
> I guess it's possible that it's just the switch, but I'll tell you, that's
> not how I've seen them fail. The older series of Hafler used an Australian
> Alco switch. When the contacts eroded, the switch would simply fail to
> close, and the amp would not turn on. Or, the switch would physically fall
> apart.
>
> But the sizzling is interesting, since the switch is protected by a fuse.
> I'm wondering if there is a short in the internal pilot light. That would
> generate some heat.
>
> The boards of the amp are difficult to service, but it's not actually that
> difficult to take apart. I have a P3000, but I don't see the manual lying
> around, so I can't tell you right off whether the amp is modular. It may
> be, in which the left and right channels come off. The capacitors hold
> about 60V each, but should discharge within a few hours in the worst case
> of a blown rail fuse. If the fuse isn't blown, it discharges almost
> instantly.
>
> The new switches are readily available. If you can't get it from High
> Desert, do a style match with Digikey. But before you order one, you
> might consider jumpering across the switch Plug the amp into a breaker
> protected power strip for a little more protection. Turn the amp on with
> the switch on the strip, and see what happens. If the amp turns on, the
> next step is to check the offset. Put a DC voltmeter across the outputs of
> each channel. You should have no more than a few mv of DC. The exact
> tolerance depends upon the amp, but I think that for this modern design, a
> tight tolerance is correct.
>
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511
>
>
>

[D C[_2_]]

ComradeMartin wrote:

> Do any internal components hold a charge after unplugging the unit? I'd like
> to change the switch myself. If the switch is the problem then I've saved a
> bundle and if I'm wrong I haven't lost much. However, I don't want to get a
> shock, if that's possible.
>
> Thanks for your input, much appreciated.


Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.

I just wouldn't put my safety in his hands, is all I'm sayin'.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:02:14 -0500, D C > wrote:

>Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
>seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
>is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.

Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.

If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
will out.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

[D C[_2_]]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.

I believe you.


> If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
> look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
> seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
> will out.

I thought I was able to, and then I realized that I just don't care.

[No Name]

CM- [Sun, 09 Dec 2007 04:17:30 GMT]:
>Seemed like a good place to pose such a question, to a bunch of audio
>recording experts

The rec in rec.audio.pro stands for recreation.

comp - computer stuff
rec - recreation
misc - who knows what
sci - science
soc - sociology
news - news about news (you're reading news, by the way)
talk - yada-yada
humanities - humanities (never seen this; never looked)

and the black sheep

alt - alternative, where the nutscases roam with freedom

--
40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
iplay.40th.com - Advanced PPC audio player
phantasm.40th.com - The final destination

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 8, 11:17 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:

> No, I didn't think they make them to go up in smoke. I asked the question in
> this newsgroup because this is where I would likely find out if this was a
> known issue with this amp.

It doesn't matter if there's a known issue. You need to do some
troubleshooting. It is never normal or common for something to not
work correctly (unless you're talking to a certain group of people
about Windows, of course <g>). I have no problem with people who ask
for troubleshooting aid or experience, just with the "is this normal?"
questions.

> It is a fact that entire lots of electronic
> components can be improperly manufactured and thus become a "known problem".

Sure, this happens. For many years, Mackie was buying improperly
matched male and female ribbon cable connectors and connections failed
prematurely. So, I guess this is a "known" problem, but it's not
normal.

You've asked a couple of times about components holding a charge. Yes,
there are power supply capacitors that will retain some charge, but
they probably should discharge to a safe level within a minute or two
unless the problem is that the power supply has been disconnected from
the amplifier itself, perhaps as a result of a blown DC fuse. But this
isn't likely in your situation.

Still, you shouldn't undertake even a service project as simple as
replacing a switch without at least having a multimeter and the
knowledge of how to use it. You could easily check to see if there's
still enough charge on the filter capacitors to be dangerous.

In reality, you aren't likely to get electrocuted from the voltage
inside of a solid state amplifier, however should you unexpectedly
short across a charged capacitor, perhaps from the slip of a
screwdriver when removing a switch, the spark and noise will startle
you enough so that you'll quickly withdraw your hand, perhaps leaving
some skin snagged on a chassis edge.

Working inside a power amplifier isn't like changing a light bulb. All
the right questions will be answered in good time, but questions that
suggest that you don't really understand what needs to be done lead to
answers suggesting that perhaps you shouldn't be messing around
there.

[William Sommerwerck]

"ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
news:TUJ6j.9937$iU.6091@pd7urf2no...

> So, I took your advice and popped the top off but did not see any brownish
> goo anywhere. I then plugged it in and turned it on to see where the
problem
> might be. The switch sparked/sizzled slightly and then I immediately
> unplugged it.

The fact the "switch sparked/sizzled slightly" suggests you have a "hard"
short somewhere. It would most likely be in the output stage or power
supply. A few minutes with an ohmeter might reveal something. Or not.

[Mark]

On Dec 8, 11:10 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:
> Bob,
>
> So, I took your advice and popped the top off but did not see any brownish
> goo anywhere. I then plugged it in and turned it on to see where the problem
> might be. The switch sparked/sizzled slightly and then I immediately
> unplugged it. I think I know what you mean about a "tough amp to service".
> It looks to me like one would have to take just about everything out of the
> casing to get to the switch, quite a hassle. Do any of the components inside
> hold a charge after unplugging it? If so, how long? I'm thinking that I
> could order the switch and put it in myself.
>
> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
> >news:rgI6j.6013$jq2.3173@pd7urf1no...
> >>I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on and
> >>I heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
> >>switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
>
> >> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
> >> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?
> >> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?
>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> > That's a tough amp to service, since it is one of the few made with
> > surface mount technology. The symptom you describe is not particular to
> > Haflers. You can pop the cover and look for brownish goo coming out of one
> > of the large capacitors. It is either one of those, or something else in
> > the power supply -- transformer or rectifier, since a failure in the rest
> > of the circuit would cause a "rail fuse" to blow, without smoke. The
> > Hafler does have a low current regulated supply, but I don't think a
> > problem there would be quite so dramatic.
>
> > "High Desert Audio" in Tempe, Arizona, is what remains of Hafler, and I
> > believe they do still service work.
>
> > Bob Morein
> > (310) 237-6511- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

sounds like a bad switch...

pull the plug, put a short across the switch and then plug it back in
and see what happens, if it works fine, order a new switch

Mark

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 9, 9:06 am, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote:

> The fact the "switch sparked/sizzled slightly" suggests you have a "hard"
> short somewhere.

It's equally likely that the switch contacts have partially stopped
being contacts. Why guess when it's so easy to test?

[Scott Dorsey]

D C > wrote:
>
>Reminds me of a story an audio sales rep used to tell. He was demoing
>some amps, and one of them went on fire. Are a major commotion at the
>dealership, the fire was finally put out by several employees. The rep
>then took out his pad and asked, "How many would you like?"

Phase Linear, no doubt?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[D C[_2_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

>> Reminds me of a story an audio sales rep used to tell. He was demoing
>> some amps, and one of them went on fire. Are a major commotion at the
>> dealership, the fire was finally put out by several employees. The rep
>> then took out his pad and asked, "How many would you like?"
>
> Phase Linear, no doubt?
> --scott


One would think. I'm not sure what it was.

[ComradeMartin]

I have the switch out. Even though there was a bit of smoke and light
sparking I do not see any evidence of that with the switch removed. However,
the switch smells burnt. I'd like to jumper them for the test. One question,
there are three wires that go into the switch. Do I jumper all three wires
together or just two? If two, which two?

The switch looks generic to me so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is.


"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:02:14 -0500, D C > wrote:
>>
>>>Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
>>>seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
>>>is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.
>>
>> Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.
>>
>> If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
>> look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
>> seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
>> will out.
>>
>> All good fortune,
>>
>> Chris Hornbeck
>
> Thanks, Chris, for backing me up. Comrade Martin, I do have an impostor,
> and he spews gratuitous insults and misinformation. But a few more
> thoughts:
>
> 1. Once you have the switch in your hand, you will know who made it, and
> the part number.
> 2. Rocker switches are, in my opinion, awful. All switches arc during the
> make/break sequence, but possibly because of the weak snap action, the
> contacts of rocker switches tend to fail more rapidly than other types. If
> you used yours as the habitual method of powering, it was bound to break.
> A lot of us use a central power strip switch to avoid this. When the power
> strip breaks, no tears, just toss the strip.
> 3. You might just consider removing the switch, jumpering the wires, and
> taping over the hole.
> 4. You might try buying the switch from High Desert Audio.
>
> Good luck,
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511
>
>
>
>

[Mark]

On Dec 9, 6:01 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:
> I have the switch out. Even though there was a bit of smoke and light
> sparking I do not see any evidence of that with the switch removed. However,
> the switch smells burnt. I'd like to jumper them for the test. One question,
> there are three wires that go into the switch. Do I jumper all three wires
> together or just two? If two, which two?
>
> The switch looks generic to me so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is.
>
> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:02:14 -0500, D C > wrote:
>
> >>>Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
> >>>seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
> >>>is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.
>
> >> Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.
>
> >> If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
> >> look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
> >> seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
> >> will out.
>
> >> All good fortune,
>
> >> Chris Hornbeck
>
> > Thanks, Chris, for backing me up. Comrade Martin, I do have an impostor,
> > and he spews gratuitous insults and misinformation. But a few more
> > thoughts:
>
> > 1. Once you have the switch in your hand, you will know who made it, and
> > the part number.
> > 2. Rocker switches are, in my opinion, awful. All switches arc during the
> > make/break sequence, but possibly because of the weak snap action, the
> > contacts of rocker switches tend to fail more rapidly than other types. If
> > you used yours as the habitual method of powering, it was bound to break.
> > A lot of us use a central power strip switch to avoid this. When the power
> > strip breaks, no tears, just toss the strip.
> > 3. You might just consider removing the switch, jumpering the wires, and
> > taping over the hole.
> > 4. You might try buying the switch from High Desert Audio.
>
> > Good luck,
> > Bob Morein
> > (310) 237-6511- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

my opinion is that if you have the switch out and you can't figure out
which 2 of the 3 wires to jumper, then you are in over your head and
you should seek in person tech help.. not help over the
internet...find a local ham or other tech type person...

Mark

[ComradeMartin]

The problem is the switch, for sure. I popped off the rocker top and it's
burnt inside, full of soot and burnt plastic. Not being an expert I still
don't know which two I would have to jumper. I know one, but not sure about
the other two pins. I don't have a proper jumper anyway so I'm going to try
and track down a switch.


"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> I looked at the Hafler schematic, but their schematic is only for an
> amplifier module. It doesn't cover the switch wiring. I wish I could give
> you pin numbers, but in the absence, I would have to guess. Although a
> mistake would probably only cost you a blown fuse, I feel liable for
> something like this. The wire you do NOT want to connect is the one that
> powers the neon bulb in the switch. If you do connect it, it will create a
> short circuit. We don't want that.
>
> Connect only two wires. One is easy to identify, because it comes directly
> off the IEC power socket. A second wire goes into the equipment to power
> it. A third wire, the one you do NOT want to connect, supplies a neutral
> connection to the neon bulb.
>
> I see the pin numbers for an Alco switch, but there is no guarantee it's
> the same for the switch you have. If the switch works a little bit, you
> can tell with an ohmmeter. Jiggle the switch until it's "on", and if you
> can get a low reading across two contacts, those are the ones to jump.
>
> If the switch does not work at all, and you are willing to destroy it,
> pop/pry the rocker off. You will be able to physically see the contacts,
> and you'll know for sure which ones to jump.
>
> Since I do not know your level of knowledge, I can take no responsibility
> for injury. There are certain things that the people on this group know
> that keeps them safe when performing procedures like this. I worry that,
> if you do not have a basic understanding of electricity, you may injure
> yourself.
>
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511
>
>
>
> "ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
> news:Ws_6j.7829$jq2.7040@pd7urf1no...
>>I have the switch out. Even though there was a bit of smoke and light
>>sparking I do not see any evidence of that with the switch removed.
>>However, the switch smells burnt. I'd like to jumper them for the test.
>>One question, there are three wires that go into the switch. Do I jumper
>>all three wires together or just two? If two, which two?
>>
>> The switch looks generic to me so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is.
>>
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:02:14 -0500, D C > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
>>>>>seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
>>>>>is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.
>>>>
>>>> Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
>>>> look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
>>>> seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
>>>> will out.
>>>>
>>>> All good fortune,
>>>>
>>>> Chris Hornbeck
>>>
>>> Thanks, Chris, for backing me up. Comrade Martin, I do have an
>>> impostor, and he spews gratuitous insults and misinformation. But a few
>>> more thoughts:
>>>
>>> 1. Once you have the switch in your hand, you will know who made it,
>>> and the part number.
>>> 2. Rocker switches are, in my opinion, awful. All switches arc during
>>> the make/break sequence, but possibly because of the weak snap action,
>>> the contacts of rocker switches tend to fail more rapidly than other
>>> types. If you used yours as the habitual method of powering, it was
>>> bound to break. A lot of us use a central power strip switch to avoid
>>> this. When the power strip breaks, no tears, just toss the strip.
>>> 3. You might just consider removing the switch, jumpering the wires, and
>>> taping over the hole.
>>> 4. You might try buying the switch from High Desert Audio.
>>>
>>> Good luck,
>>> Bob Morein
>>> (310) 237-6511
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[ComradeMartin]

Yes, I know when to quit. At least I know what the problem is now. I'll
order a switch as soon as I can find someone that will sell me one. That
much I can do. I just wanted to avoid taking it somewhere when I didn't have
to. A service call is probably 75 bucks minimum, I'm guessing, but a switch
is probably 75 cents.



"Mark" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 9, 6:01 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:
>> I have the switch out. Even though there was a bit of smoke and light
>> sparking I do not see any evidence of that with the switch removed.
>> However,
>> the switch smells burnt. I'd like to jumper them for the test. One
>> question,
>> there are three wires that go into the switch. Do I jumper all three
>> wires
>> together or just two? If two, which two?
>>
>> The switch looks generic to me so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is.
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:02:14 -0500, D C > wrote:
>>
>> >>>Just so you know, this "Bob" is killfiled by many people here. There
>> >>>seems to be some controversy, and a never ending battle, about who he
>> >>>is, or who his imposter is, and I KF'ed the whole bunch of 'em.
>>
>> >> Posted comments are by the real deal, and are appropriate IMO.
>>
>> >> If anyone is *still* unable to distinguish between, he need only
>> >> look at the headers. But after all this grief, a pattern really
>> >> seems to have emerged, in both style and substance. Bad intent
>> >> will out.
>>
>> >> All good fortune,
>>
>> >> Chris Hornbeck
>>
>> > Thanks, Chris, for backing me up. Comrade Martin, I do have an
>> > impostor,
>> > and he spews gratuitous insults and misinformation. But a few more
>> > thoughts:
>>
>> > 1. Once you have the switch in your hand, you will know who made it,
>> > and
>> > the part number.
>> > 2. Rocker switches are, in my opinion, awful. All switches arc during
>> > the
>> > make/break sequence, but possibly because of the weak snap action, the
>> > contacts of rocker switches tend to fail more rapidly than other types.
>> > If
>> > you used yours as the habitual method of powering, it was bound to
>> > break.
>> > A lot of us use a central power strip switch to avoid this. When the
>> > power
>> > strip breaks, no tears, just toss the strip.
>> > 3. You might just consider removing the switch, jumpering the wires,
>> > and
>> > taping over the hole.
>> > 4. You might try buying the switch from High Desert Audio.
>>
>> > Good luck,
>> > Bob Morein
>> > (310) 237-6511- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> my opinion is that if you have the switch out and you can't figure out
> which 2 of the 3 wires to jumper, then you are in over your head and
> you should seek in person tech help.. not help over the
> internet...find a local ham or other tech type person...
>
> Mark

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:31:26 GMT, "ComradeMartin"
> wrote:

>Yes, I know when to quit. At least I know what the problem is now.

Well, maybe you do. But look at that switch carefully before spending
time and money locating a replacement. Maybe it colapsed internally
or a simple physical fauly caused mains power to short to ground
through it, causing meltdown. But just maybe the cause of excessive
current is further down the line. You'll slot in a new switch only to
see THAT one melt.

[Arny Krueger]

"ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
news:rgI6j.6013$jq2.3173@pd7urf1no
> I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I
> turned it on and I heard a bit of sizzling and then a
> little smoke came out by the power switch. I immediately
> unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?

No.

> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?

Parts or labor?

> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?

Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up the ghost, or
something shorted inside that blew up the switch. Of course, you've got to
replace the switch, but there's a cheap trick that could save you some grief
when you test the repaired unit.

Get a 100 watt light bulb, a light bulb socket, and an extension cord. Cut
one wire of the extension cord and wire the bulb socket in series with it.
Screw in the bulb, plug the amp into the extension cord, and test the amp.

When you turn on the switch, the blub should glow brightly as you charge up
the power supply caps, and then dim when they charge up and the amp is
idling. If the bulb just keeps shining very brightly, you've got some other
serious problem.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..

> Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
> the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.

I was about to make this point.

In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short out,
but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.

"Something else" is wrong with this amp.

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:32:17 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> wrote:

>> Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
>> the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
>
>I was about to make this point.
>
>In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short out,
>but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
>
>"Something else" is wrong with this amp.

If it's double-pole, switching both sides of the mains input, an
internal fault just might cause meltdown.

But I think he's still just poking around the outside. That switch
has to come out and it's surroundings properly looked at. If he
can't work out how to jumper out the switch I really feel he
shouldn't be thinking of a DIY repair.

Though I suppose if he installs a new switch, the worst that can
happen is another melted switch. And the best is a working unit :-)

[jakdedert]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:32:17 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> > wrote:
>
>>> Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
>>> the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
>> I was about to make this point.
>>
>> In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short out,
>> but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
>>
>> "Something else" is wrong with this amp.
>
> If it's double-pole, switching both sides of the mains input, an
> internal fault just might cause meltdown.
>
> But I think he's still just poking around the outside. That switch
> has to come out and it's surroundings properly looked at. If he
> can't work out how to jumper out the switch I really feel he
> shouldn't be thinking of a DIY repair.
>
> Though I suppose if he installs a new switch, the worst that can
> happen is another melted switch. And the best is a working unit :-)

'Something else' could well be wrong. All this speculation is based on
the OP's assertion that he saw some smoke come out of the amp, via the
switch opening.

Way too little info to base a diagnosis on.....

jak

[D C[_2_]]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> If it's double-pole, switching both sides of the mains input, an
> internal fault just might cause meltdown.
>
> But I think he's still just poking around the outside. That switch
> has to come out and it's surroundings properly looked at. If he
> can't work out how to jumper out the switch I really feel he
> shouldn't be thinking of a DIY repair.
>
> Though I suppose if he installs a new switch, the worst that can
> happen is another melted switch. And the best is a working unit :-)


I would fear worse than that.

[ComradeMartin]

Wow, I can't believe the response I'm getting on this thread. Thanks to
everyone that has given their input.

It's obvious that I don't have much of clue when it comes to electronics.
But for 20 bucks I'm going to find out if it's the switch, I ordered one
today. The reason I believe it's the switch is because I was having a hard
time getting the switch to turn on. It would get stuck and I'd have to
really push hard to get it to rock into the on position. I'm assuming that
something gave way inside and shorted? It was definately fried inside the
switch. So, when I get the new switch I'll let everyone know how it went.
Hopefully, I'm right. If not, off to a pro it goes!


"Laurence Payne" <NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:32:17 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> > wrote:
>
>>> Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
>>> the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
>>
>>I was about to make this point.
>>
>>In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short out,
>>but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
>>
>>"Something else" is wrong with this amp.
>
> If it's double-pole, switching both sides of the mains input, an
> internal fault just might cause meltdown.
>
> But I think he's still just poking around the outside. That switch
> has to come out and it's surroundings properly looked at. If he
> can't work out how to jumper out the switch I really feel he
> shouldn't be thinking of a DIY repair.
>
> Though I suppose if he installs a new switch, the worst that can
> happen is another melted switch. And the best is a working unit :-)

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 10, 9:40 pm, "ComradeMartin" > wrote:

> The reason I believe it's the switch is because I was having a hard
> time getting the switch to turn on. It would get stuck and I'd have to
> really push hard to get it to rock into the on position. I'm assuming that
> something gave way inside and shorted?

Nobody here doubts that the switch is faulty and needs to be replaced.
However, this may or may not be the only problem you have. That's what
we've been telling you. If you use the switch a lot and it's not a
high quality switch, it may have just worn out mechanically. The
rocker assembly inside may have worn out its bearings, causing the
contacts to no longer meet squarely, increasing the contact
resistance, and causing arcing, which further deteriorates the
contacts.

On the other hand, there may be something wrong that's causing the
amplifier to draw excessive current - not bad enough (yet) to be
apparent in performance, but causing the switch to fail prematurely,
and a new switch will again. That's why we're telling you to find the
real problems and don't just make it work again.

[William Sommerwerck]

"ComradeMartin" > wrote
in message news:KMm7j.1123$Mw6.248@pd7urf2no...

> It's obvious that I don't have much of clue when it comes to electronics.
> But for 20 bucks I'm going to find out if it's the switch, I ordered one
> today. The reason I believe it's the switch is because I was having a
> hard time getting the switch to turn on. It would get stuck and I'd have
> to really push hard to get it to rock into the on position. I'm assuming
> that something gave way inside and shorted? It was definately fried
> inside the switch. So, when I get the new switch I'll let everyone know
> how it went. Hopefully, I'm right. If not, off to a pro it goes!

Forgive me if I seem a bit abrupt (no comments from the Peanut Gallery,
please), but the purpose of a switch -- its very reason for being -- is to
SHORT OUT. (Right?)

The point about a double-pole switch shorting the line and self-destructing
is valid, and if your amp has a double-pole switch, this might very well be
the case.

Regardless, you need to do a bit more-trouble-shooting before replacing the
switch, especially as it's hard to replace and costs $20.

[D C[_2_]]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> You're lucky, we usually don't give non-pros any advice in this group.

What an idiot.

[Chris Hornbeck]

Complaints-To:

An even more boringly obvious forgery than usual.




FWIW, switches fail in all kinds of strange ways, often
aggravated by the arcing that occurs with every make and
break. The arcing damages the contacting surfaces, and
finally the contacts are poor enough to also get hot.
Happens all the time.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

[Arny Krueger]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message

> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in
> message
> ...
>> On Dec 11, 11:00 pm, D C > wrote...
>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>> You're lucky, we usually don't give non-pros any
>>>> advice in this group.
>>>
>>> What an idiot.
>>
>> You're just jealous that some of us are professional
>> audio engineers, and people like you are just wanna-bees.
>
> Dear Mr Brian L. McCarty,
> You've already been exposed, so D.C. understands that
> the above insult comes from you. You might bump into some
> of these people at conferences. You might need to work
> with some of them in the future. Are you sure your
> conduct is wise? Your physical appearance is quite
> distinctive.

So the buzzardnews forger has morphed himself into the google groups forger?

At this point only newbies are fooled. Well newbies and the forger himself,
because he obviously still thinks he's accomplishing something, other than
getting all of the regulars really tired of his foolishment.

[Mark]

On Dec 10, 3:32 pm, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
> > Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
> > the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
>
> I was about to make this point.
>
> In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short out,
> but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
>
> "Something else" is wrong with this amp.

yes, a switch can self destruct even a SPST one, if the correct fuse
is in the unit and it did not blow, then there is probably nothing
else wrong, just the switch.

Mark

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mark" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 10, 3:32 pm, "William Sommerwerck" >
> wrote:
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >
> > . ..
> >
> > > Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
> > > the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
> >
> > I was about to make this point.
> >
> > In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short
out,
> > but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
> >
> > "Something else" is wrong with this amp.
>
> yes, a switch can self destruct even a SPST one, if the correct fuse
> is in the unit and it did not blow, then there is probably nothing
> else wrong, just the switch.

But what caused enough current to flow to damage the switch?

[Mark]

On Dec 12, 5:07 pm, "William Sommerwerck" >
wrote:
> "Mark" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 3:32 pm, "William Sommerwerck" >
> > wrote:
> > > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>
> > . ..
>
> > > > Yes. With a problem like this one, either the switch gave up
> > > > the ghost, or something shorted inside that blew up the switch.
>
> > > I was about to make this point.
>
> > > In general, a switch cannot self-destruct. It might open up, or short
> out,
> > > but it's not going to burn up unless it's subjected to a heavy load.
>
> > > "Something else" is wrong with this amp.
>
> > yes, a switch can self destruct even a SPST one, if the correct fuse
> > is in the unit and it did not blow, then there is probably nothing
> > else wrong, just the switch.
>
> But what caused enough current to flow to damage the switch?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the contacts can get dirty and intermittent, and when you try to turn
it on the NORMAL current causes a bunch or arcing and sparking that
heats up and makes a bad smell and whiff of smoke...

the fact that the normal TURN ON SURGE current can be a lot higher
than the normal steady state current helps this too.

Mark

[William Sommerwerck]

>> But what caused enough current to flow to damage the switch?

> the contacts can get dirty and intermittent, and when you try to
> turn it on the NORMAL current causes a bunch or arcing and
> sparking that heats up and makes a bad smell and whiff of smoke...

> the fact that the normal TURN ON SURGE current can be a lot
> higher than the normal steady state current helps this, too.

Okay. Makes sense. But in this case, my understanding is that the amp
"misbehaved" during normal operation, just sitting there.

[Paul Stamler]

"William Sommerwerck" > wrote in message
. ..
> >> But what caused enough current to flow to damage the switch?
>
> > the contacts can get dirty and intermittent, and when you try to
> > turn it on the NORMAL current causes a bunch or arcing and
> > sparking that heats up and makes a bad smell and whiff of smoke...
>
> > the fact that the normal TURN ON SURGE current can be a lot
> > higher than the normal steady state current helps this, too.
>
> Okay. Makes sense. But in this case, my understanding is that the amp
> "misbehaved" during normal operation, just sitting there.

The OP did report that the switch became progressively more difficult to
move before the smoke happened.

Peace,
Paul

[ComradeMartin]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
> news:rgI6j.6013$jq2.3173@pd7urf1no...
>>I have a Hafler P3000 that is about 3 years old . Today I turned it on and
>>I heard a bit of sizzling and then a little smoke came out by the power
>>switch. I immediately unplugged it. So, I have a few questions;
>>
>> 1. Is this a known or typical problem with Hafler Amps?
>> 2. Any idea how much it will cost to fix?
>> 3. Anything I can do to assess the damage?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
> That's a tough amp to service, since it is one of the few made with
> surface mount technology. The symptom you describe is not particular to
> Haflers. You can pop the cover and look for brownish goo coming out of one
> of the large capacitors. It is either one of those, or something else in
> the power supply -- transformer or rectifier, since a failure in the rest
> of the circuit would cause a "rail fuse" to blow, without smoke. The
> Hafler does have a low current regulated supply, but I don't think a
> problem there would be quite so dramatic.
>
> "High Desert Audio" in Tempe, Arizona, is what remains of Hafler, and I
> believe they do still service work.
>
> Bob Morein
> (310) 237-6511
>
>
>

[ComradeMartin]

I installed my new switch today. So far, so good. I don't feel any heat at
the switch and the amplifier appears to be working fine. I'll keep a close
eye on it for a while since some of you mentioned that the root cause of the
switch failure could be something else. I also have a power bar and won't be
using the switch. It's much easier to replace the power bar than the switch!
Finally, it's nice to have sound again. Try turning off your speakers for 3
weeks and only use headphones................................

[William Sommerwerck]

"ComradeMartin" > wrote in message
news:foYcj.22668$DP1.10705@pd7urf2no...
> I installed my new switch today. So far, so good. I don't feel any heat at
> the switch and the amplifier appears to be working fine. I'll keep a close
> eye on it for a while since some of you mentioned that the root cause of
the
> switch failure could be something else. I also have a power bar and won't
be
> using the switch. It's much easier to replace the power bar than the
switch!
> Finally, it's nice to have sound again. Try turning off your speakers for
3
> weeks and only use headphones................................

There are headphones, and then there are headphones. STAX electrostatic
earspeakers are not exactly chopped liver...