Mixing out in the open

[reqluq]

He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better mix?
req

[Federico]

You probably will end up using tons of reverb which may turn out quite
annoying in a close space.
F.

[Federico]

> You probably will end up using tons of reverb which may turn out quite
> annoying in a close space.
> F.

And if it rains I would call that a "wet" mix...
F.

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
>suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
>over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better mix?

No, but then it's different.

See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room. Without
the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.

You CAN build a monitoring system to be accurate in this environment,
and if you do you won't have standing wave problems like you do in a
room. But it would be different than what you have.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reqluq]

But being in the open you should be able to hear it no?
req
"Federico" > wrote in message
...
> You probably will end up using tons of reverb which may turn out quite
> annoying in a close space.
> F.
>

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
>>suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
>>over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better
>>mix?
>
> No, but then it's different.
>
> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room. Without
> the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.


I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be heard properly and
then you have to treat the room for the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have
to treat anything...no walls, ceilings etc.

req

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>
>I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be heard properly and
>then you have to treat the room for the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have
>to treat anything...no walls, ceilings etc.

A good room gives you good bass. If the system is designed properly, the
room response picks up at the same point the speaker response drops off,
and the total system is flat. The wall behind the speaker is responsible
for most of this in typical installations.

A bad room gives you bad bass. There are room modes all over the place
and the speaker response plus the room response results in something that
looks like the Swiss Alps.

No room gives you no bass reinforcement at all, so you need speakers that
are designed for flat response in the free field, rather than flat response
in front of a wall.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Federico]

Have you ever heard a classic orchestra performing in a field? You hear
nothing...
No bass... no ambience... a dead orchestra.
As Scott says you need a well tuned room.
F.

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 21:08:20 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room. Without
>> the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.
>
>
>I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be heard properly and
>then you have to treat the room for the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have
>to treat anything...no walls, ceilings etc.

No, it's the room that causes the bass to BE heard properly :-) But
it's a system that needs tuning.

[Richard Crowley]

"Federico" wrote ...
> Have you ever heard a classic orchestra performing in a field?
> You hear nothing...
> No bass... no ambience... a dead orchestra.

Unless you hire a rock music SR contractor to come in and
try to "reinforce" the orchestra. It is an acquired taste, I
suppose, but not something I would pay to hear. :-(

> As Scott says you need a well tuned room.

Listen to the man.

[anahata]

reqluq wrote:
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote
>>See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room. Without
>>the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.
>
> I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be heard properly

Yes, but "not properly" in this case means mostly too much rather than
too little, at least at some frequencies.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

[Ethan Winer]

> if I was to take my monitors outside suspend 'em ten feet or so off the
> ground; point them at the sky and lean over them using a scaffold or
> whatever; would I then get a true/better mix?

Yes, the bass response would be perfectly flat, but as others said it might
not be a great mix environment for other reasons. So the better solution is
to treat your room properly with bass traps (and absorption at the first
reflection points on the side walls and ceiling).

--Ethan

[Arny Krueger]

"reqluq" > wrote in message


> I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be
> heard properly

That's true, but it is also true that the room provides considerable bass
boost.

> and then you have to treat the room for
> the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have to treat
> anything...no walls, ceilings etc.

You'll also have no bass.

I've done live sound events outside, as in the middle of a lawn. Not so bad
for voice, but forget about the bass. You can make some very big bass
speakers seem very small trying to get good bass in the middle of a field.

The bass response of speakers is generally tuned with the idea that the
speaker is going to have some wall(s), a floor, and a ceiling nearby to
provide some support for the bass. If you get technical with speaker
measurements, you'll find that some speakers are tested in

free space - hanging a goodly distance from anything.
half space - against the middle of a very large wall
quarter space - where two large walls or a wall and a floor intersect.

[reqluq]

Lok at all the answers; Ethan I thought from all my reading, that you would
want a flat response; undoctored so to speak. hmm
I always thought flat respone was what hepls you create a *perfect* mix
req
"Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote in message
...
>> if I was to take my monitors outside suspend 'em ten feet or so off the
>> ground; point them at the sky and lean over them using a scaffold or
>> whatever; would I then get a true/better mix?
>
> Yes, the bass response would be perfectly flat, but as others said it
> might
> not be a great mix environment for other reasons. So the better solution
> is
> to treat your room properly with bass traps (and absorption at the first
> reflection points on the side walls and ceiling).
>
> --Ethan

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
>>suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
>>over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better
>>mix?
>
> No, but then it's different.
>
> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room.

No; they are voiced to give a flat response so I can know what's really
going on..It's up to me to treat the room so the walls etc. don't mess with
that. Hence outside...no walls; no ceiling; no treatment necessary

> Without the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.

Well these are near field monitors, are you saying if I get in close I'll
still miss the bass?

> You CAN build a monitoring system to be accurate in this environment,
> and if you do you won't have standing wave problems like you do in a
> room.

And that's what we all want no?

> But it would be different than what you have.

Of course it would

req

[reqluq]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>
>
>> I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be
>> heard properly
>
> That's true, but it is also true that the room provides considerable bass
> boost.

That's what I mean; too low or too *boosty*. It's not being heard properly
how it really is...not in the sense that you can't hear it..but in the sense
that you won't get a true representation of what's going on.


>
>> and then you have to treat the room for
>> the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have to treat
>> anything...no walls, ceilings etc.
>
> You'll also have no bass.
>
> I've done live sound events outside, as in the middle of a lawn. Not so
> bad for voice, but forget about the bass. You can make some very big bass
> speakers seem very small trying to get good bass in the middle of a field.
>
> The bass response of speakers is generally tuned with the idea that the
> speaker is going to have some wall(s), a floor, and a ceiling nearby to
> provide some support for the bass. If you get technical with speaker
> measurements, you'll find that some speakers are tested in
>
> free space - hanging a goodly distance from anything.
> half space - against the middle of a very large wall
> quarter space - where two large walls or a wall and a floor intersect.
>
>
Ok
req

[Arny Krueger]

"reqluq" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "reqluq" > wrote in
>> message

>>> I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be
>>> heard properly

>> That's true, but it is also true that the room provides
>> considerable bass boost.

> That's what I mean; too low or too *boosty*.
> It's not
> being heard properly how it really is...not in the sense
> that you can't hear it..but in the sense that you won't
> get a true representation of what's going on.

Probably not, as I'll explain at the bottom of the post.

>>> and then you have to treat the room for
>>> the anomalies..outside you shuldn't have to treat
>>> anything...no walls, ceilings etc.

>> You'll also have no bass.

>> I've done live sound events outside, as in the middle of
>> a lawn. Not so bad for voice, but forget about the bass.
>> You can make some very big bass speakers seem very small
>> trying to get good bass in the middle of a field.

>> The bass response of speakers is generally tuned with
>> the idea that the speaker is going to have some wall(s),
>> a floor, and a ceiling nearby to provide some support
>> for the bass. If you get technical with speaker
>> measurements, you'll find that some speakers are tested
>> in > free space - hanging a goodly distance from anything.
>> half space - against the middle of a very large wall
>> quarter space - where two large walls or a wall and a
>> floor intersect.

> Ok

A practical application of this is that speakers are designed to work in
some kind of space, either free space, a half space, or a quarter space or
something else. For example, a floor-standing speaker should be designed to
work in something like a quarter space, while a bookshelf speaker should be
designed to work in more like a half space. Some studio monitors have
adjustments that change their bass response to tailor it for different room
placements.

Things get more complex than that. At some point as the frequencies go
down, a room becomes smaller than a wavelength of sound. Given that 20 Hz
has a wavelength that is approximately 55 feet, all but the very largest
rooms are classed as being small at very low frequencies such as 20 Hz. When
a room is small, it starts proving bass boost at even a more rapid rate. A
car passenger compartment amounts to being a really small room, and this
bass boost can cut in somewhat below 200 Hz. Thus speakers designed for the
listening room might sound really bassy in a car. It is relatively easy to
build a speaker system for a car with strong response down to 20 Hz or
below.

These effects might be masked by other issues like standing waves in the
room. But, if you treat the room with diffusion and absorbtion, then you
will be still left with the issues I just raised.

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:07:59 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room.
>
>No; they are voiced to give a flat response so I can know what's really
>going on..It's up to me to treat the room so the walls etc. don't mess with
>that. Hence outside...no walls; no ceiling; no treatment necessary
>
>> Without the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end is very lacking.
>
>Well these are near field monitors, are you saying if I get in close I'll
>still miss the bass?

Try. We aren't going to convince you. They might sound good.
Nearfield or not, I guarantee they'll sound different. Maybe
surprisingly so.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:35:11 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
>suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
>over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better mix?

An option you may want to explore is to build dipole woofers.
These would allow you to work indoors, definitely a plus
tonight locally, but excite room modes less.

Dipole woofers will require considerable equalization, and
are very lossy, but less in each case than free space unipolar
woofers. Mostly.

Siegfried Linkwitz's site has lots of good discussion, and
is otherwise also highly recommended. He's the modern grand
old man.


Anyway, have fun, and thanks,

Chris Hornbeck

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in a room.
>
>No; they are voiced to give a flat response so I can know what's really
>going on..It's up to me to treat the room so the walls etc. don't mess with
>that. Hence outside...no walls; no ceiling; no treatment necessary

Nothing is voiced to give a flat response. Folks try, but there are huge
numbers of compromises involved.

IF you design a speaker to have flat low end in an anechoic chamber, it will
be boomy and unlistenable in a real room. Speakers are generally designed
to be used in real rooms.

>Well these are near field monitors, are you saying if I get in close I'll
>still miss the bass?

"Near field monitors" just have narrow dispersion. That's the only thing
different between them and any other speakers; they are intended to be used
up close and to reduce room problems. The thing is, NOTHING has truly
narrow dispersion at low frequencies.

>> You CAN build a monitoring system to be accurate in this environment,
>> and if you do you won't have standing wave problems like you do in a
>> room.
>
>And that's what we all want no?
>
>> But it would be different than what you have.
>
>Of course it would

There are speaker systems that are designed and equalized for good low
frequency response in the free field with no rear surface. They are
intended for outdoor PA applications.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
>> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> I thought it was the room that causes the bass not to be
>>> heard properly
>>
>> That's true, but it is also true that the room provides considerable bass
>> boost.
>
>That's what I mean; too low or too *boosty*. It's not being heard properly
>how it really is...not in the sense that you can't hear it..but in the sense
>that you won't get a true representation of what's going on.

Umm... the room boost HELPS the total system become flat. You cannot look
at the speaker or the room response in isolation. They have to be tailored
for one another. They are both part of a system.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ethan Winer]

> Ethan I thought from all my reading, that you would want a flat response;
> undoctored so to speak. hmm I always thought flat respone was what hepls
> you create a *perfect* mix

You are correct! Flat is the ideal to aim for. But outdoors has a very
different "sound" than indoors, and most of the people you're mixing for
will listen indoors.

Actually, I disagree with my own point above. ->)

The ideal indoors environment has a perfectly flat response, and no early
reflections from nearby surfaces. Gee, that sounds to me just like outdoors.

--Ethan

[Arny Krueger]

"reqluq" > wrote in message

> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> reqluq > wrote:
>>> He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my
>>> monitors outside suspend 'em ten feet or so off the
>>> ground; point them at the sky and lean over them using
>>> a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better
>>> mix?
>>
>> No, but then it's different.
>>
>> See, your monitors are probably voiced to sound good in
>> a room.

> No; they are voiced to give a flat response so I can know
> what's really going on..

Subjectively flat response is not the same as flat response.

Depending on the size and acoustics of a room, there is a "room curve" that
listener preferences will tend to converge on as the appropriate measured
response in that room. Note that this curve is something you measure out of
the room all by itself, and is not above and beyond things like amplifier
and speaker or room frequency response.

> It's up to me to treat the room
> so the walls etc. don't mess with that. Hence
> outside...no walls; no ceiling; no treatment necessary

There's actually a big history of what it takes to make music sound right
outside. Initially, people built orchestra shells and band shells that
enclosed just the orchestra. However, in the late 50s and 60s people started
building outdoor pavillions. These pavilions weren't built just to keep
people out of the rain. Their acoustic properties were designed to focus the
sound of the orchestra on the listeners in the best possible way.

>> Without the room reinforcement, you'll find the low end
>> is very lacking.

Agreed.

> Well these are near field monitors, are you saying if I
> get in close I'll still miss the bass?

The bass response of near field monitors is still affected by the acoustics
of the room, most obviouisly the bass. Better near field monitors have
built-in equalizers that allow you to adjust the bass response for the type
of acoustic environment, whether on a wall, or out in a free field, for
example.

>> You CAN build a monitoring system to be accurate in this
>> environment, and if you do you won't have standing wave
>> problems like you do in a room.

But a free-air speaker will have a very powerful woofer subsystem if you
want extended bass.

[reqluq]

"Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote in message
...
>> Ethan I thought from all my reading, that you would want a flat response;
>> undoctored so to speak. hmm I always thought flat respone was what hepls
>> you create a *perfect* mix
>
> You are correct! Flat is the ideal to aim for. But outdoors has a very
> different "sound" than indoors, and most of the people you're mixing for
> will listen indoors.
>
> Actually, I disagree with my own point above. ->)
>
> The ideal indoors environment has a perfectly flat response, and no early
> reflections from nearby surfaces. Gee, that sounds to me just like
> outdoors.
>
> --Ethan


Hehe, that's what I was getting at.
req

[reqluq]

BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just expounding theory...
req
"reqluq" > wrote in message
...
> He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
> suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
> over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better
> mix?
> req
>
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just expounding theory...

Yes, everyone has.

It's very common for folks to have to deal with speakers outdoors in PA
situations. It's no fun.

I take speakers outside all the time to do swept sine measurements, since
I don't have a real anechoic chamber. Needless to say, the response outdoors
has nothing much to do on the bottom octave with the response indoors, but
usually we design speakers to have a flat lower octave response indoors
because that is where they are used.

Try it and you'll see what I mean. It'll take you half an hour at most to
run an extention cord into the backyard and carry a pair of speakers out.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"reqluq" > wrote in message


> BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just
> expounding theory... req

Didn't read my post where I said that I've mixed live sound in the middle of
lawns, I take it.

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just expounding theory...
>
> Yes, everyone has.
>
> It's very common for folks to have to deal with speakers outdoors in PA
> situations. It's no fun.
>
> I take speakers outside all the time to do swept sine measurements, since
> I don't have a real anechoic chamber. Needless to say, the response
> outdoors
> has nothing much to do on the bottom octave with the response indoors, but
> usually we design speakers to have a flat lower octave response indoors
> because that is where they are used.
>
> Try it and you'll see what I mean. It'll take you half an hour at most to
> run an extention cord into the backyard and carry a pair of speakers out.
> --scott

Yup you're right, I play live a lot and I set up my speakers against a wall
in some places then I walk around to check balance of sound...near to the
wall there is lots of bass but out in the open it's gone so I guess one has
to find the correct balance.
req

[reqluq]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>
>
>> BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just
>> expounding theory... req
>
> Didn't read my post where I said that I've mixed live sound in the middle
> of lawns, I take it.

yup
sorry
req

[reqluq]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>
>
>> BTW has anyone even tried this, or are you just
>> expounding theory... req
>
> Didn't read my post where I said that I've mixed live sound in the middle
> of lawns, I take it.

yup but I was referring to studio monitors.
req

[reqluq]

It would seem the solution would be: treat the outdoors....ie. instead of
treating a room with a lot of stuff ..go outside and have a few 4' x 6'( or
what ever size larger you care for ) panels made of 2x4s and plywood or
sheet rock so to speak and adjust them in or out, front and back till you
get acceptable results whatever that may be...how's that grab ya? must be
cheaper than a whole room treatment unless you're lucky to have a good room.
req
"reqluq" > wrote in message
...
> He since a room almost has issues; if I was to take my monitors outside
> suspend 'em ten feet or so off the ground; point them at the sky and lean
> over them using a scaffold or whatever; would I then get a true/better
> mix?
> req
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>It would seem the solution would be: treat the outdoors....ie. instead of
>treating a room with a lot of stuff ..go outside and have a few 4' x 6'( or
>what ever size larger you care for ) panels made of 2x4s and plywood or
>sheet rock so to speak and adjust them in or out, front and back till you
>get acceptable results whatever that may be...how's that grab ya? must be
>cheaper than a whole room treatment unless you're lucky to have a good room.

This is basically equivalent to constructing a brand new room. Which is,
indeed, the way to get a good studio.

You aren't "lucky" to get a good room. Good rooms are carefully designed.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>It would seem the solution would be: treat the outdoors....ie. instead of
>>treating a room with a lot of stuff ..go outside and have a few 4' x 6'(
>>or
>>what ever size larger you care for ) panels made of 2x4s and plywood or
>>sheet rock so to speak and adjust them in or out, front and back till you
>>get acceptable results whatever that may be...how's that grab ya? must be
>>cheaper than a whole room treatment unless you're lucky to have a good
>>room.
>
> This is basically equivalent to constructing a brand new room. Which is,
> indeed, the way to get a good studio.
>
> You aren't "lucky" to get a good room. Good rooms are carefully designed.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

By *lucky* I meant that you had a good sized room to start with..big open
space and high ceiling
req

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

reqluq wrote:

> By *lucky* I meant that you had a good sized room to start with..big
> open space and high ceiling

8:5:3

> req


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>
>By *lucky* I meant that you had a good sized room to start with..big open
>space and high ceiling

For a control room space you don't need that, although it sure helps.
For a tracking space, that's a good start. But a control room can be
pretty small as long as you are careful about dimensions and balances.

Either way, a room is a room whether it's part of your building or
is constructed outside.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."