The perfect handheld vocal mic?

[Carey Carlan]

I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.

What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
noise, and feedback?

I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.

[Geoff]

Carey Carlan wrote:
> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and
> handling noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with
> sounds like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and
> little else.

RODE S1 - best plosive-proofness I've come across.


geoff.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Carey Carlan > wrote:
>I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
>What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
>noise, and feedback?

In the cheap range: AKG D880.

In the medium range. Sennheiser 431

In the expensive range: Neumann KMS105. Also has huge and peaky top
end, but very lttle handling noise.

A tight pattern translates to high gain before feedback, and the ability
to work the mike at a distance. There are people out there, though, who
are microphone-eaters and used to shoving an SM-58 right up against their
lips. These people will have plosive problems with any microphone and the
only solution is proper mike technique.

>I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
>supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
>like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.

Start with a D880, available for under $50 used. Then try the 431.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message
...
> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little
else.

Try a Shure KSM9. Also an E-V RE16, but ya gotta keep your hands off the
side vents.

Peace,
Paul

[straightnut]

On Dec 2, 6:35 pm, Carey Carlan > wrote:
> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.

I recall a couple of years ago someone here suggesting an Oktava mic
that was designed to be practically eaten when singing. Supposedly
great for rejection because of the way it used proximity effect as an
intregal part of the design.

Jeff

[straightnut]

On Dec 2, 11:20 pm, straightnut > wrote:
> On Dec 2, 6:35 pm, Carey Carlan > wrote:
>
> > I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> > What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> > noise, and feedback?
>
> > I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> > supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> > like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.
>
> I recall a couple of years ago someone here suggesting an Oktava mic
> that was designed to be practically eaten when singing. Supposedly
> great for rejection because of the way it used proximity effect as an
> intregal part of the design.
>
> Jeff

Sorry, not Oktava but Audix. OM 5 6 or 7 maybe?

[LAB]

>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
>> noise, and feedback?

Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity effect,
beautiful bright sound.

Gianluca

[Arny Krueger]

"straightnut" > wrote in message

> On Dec 2, 11:20 pm, straightnut > wrote:
>> On Dec 2, 6:35 pm, Carey Carlan >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>>
>>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to
>>> plosives and handling noise, and feedback?
>>
>>> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it
>>> sounds. I don't supply the amps and speakers, and all
>>> the PA I seem to work with sounds like junk anyway. I
>>> just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.
>>
>> I recall a couple of years ago someone here suggesting
>> an Oktava mic that was designed to be practically eaten
>> when singing. Supposedly great for rejection because of
>> the way it used proximity effect as an intregal part of
>> the design.

> Sorry, not Oktava but Audix. OM 5 6 or 7 maybe?

I have a lot of OM5s and 6s. As close-in vocal mics they are surprisingly
lifelike.

[Carey Carlan]

"LAB" > wrote in :

> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity
> effect, beautiful bright sound.

I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.

The EV RE-16 is about three times the price, but it's a hypercardioid.
That should help with feedback.

What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
proximity effect?

[Arny Krueger]

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message

> "LAB" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no
>> proximity effect, beautiful bright sound.
>
> I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass
> from most microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.
>
> The EV RE-16 is about three times the price, but it's a
> hypercardioid. That should help with feedback.
>
> What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have
> little or no proximity effect?

It's already been said, but might bear repeating - Audix OM series.
Hypercardiod dynamics. I have a number of OM5 and OM6 in SR use. OM5 for
girls, OM6 for boys. ;-)

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, LAB > wrote:
>>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
>>> noise, and feedback?
>
> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity effect,
>beautiful bright sound.

No proximity effect = wide pattern = poor gain before feedback.

Beautiful bright sound = massive presence peak.

I found the e835 almost unusable because of the wide pattern, but I
found the e855 to be pretty good. Sadly, they discontinued it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Carey Carlan > wrote:
>"LAB" > wrote in :
>
>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity
>> effect, beautiful bright sound.
>
>I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
>microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.

Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a tight
pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you will
get an omni.

>The EV RE-16 is about three times the price, but it's a hypercardioid.
>That should help with feedback.

The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
one, and nobody other than EV uses it.

The hypercardioid pattern can be a problem with vocalists who don't know
how to use it... you point the rear directly into a monitor and it WILL
feed back. If the vocalist knows how to use it, though, it can do wonders.

>What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
>proximity effect?

There are none of them, because the basic physics mean that proximity
effect and pattern are inextricably linked.

The best you can do is an EV mike with the variable-D trick like the 664,
RE-11, RE-16, etc.

However, there's also no reason you can't use the console EQ to counteract
proximity effect, unless the performer is unable to keep a constant distance
from the mike. And if that is the case, the EVs are a miracle.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[LAB]

> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity effect,
> beautiful bright *and warm* sound

>> I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
>> microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.

>>> Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a
>>> tight pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you
>>> will get an omni.



e835 is near omni at low frequencies, but it's directional at mid/high
freq's.

Gianluca

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, LAB > wrote:
>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity effect,
>> beautiful bright *and warm* sound
>
>>> I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
>>> microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.
>
>>>> Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a
>>>> tight pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you
>>>> will get an omni.
>
> e835 is near omni at low frequencies, but it's directional at mid/high
>freq's.

Yes, all cardioids are like that.

Take the e835 and the e855. Speak into the front, then speak into the
side, 90 degrees off. Play it back and listen.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Federico]

e835 is near omni at low frequencies, but it's directional at mid/high
> freq's.

It's nearly omni under 125Hz as every mic I know...
F.

[jakdedert]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >, LAB > wrote:
>>>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
>>>> noise, and feedback?
>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity effect,
>> beautiful bright sound.
>
> No proximity effect = wide pattern = poor gain before feedback.
>

Thanks for pointing that out, Scott. I thought it an oxymoron:
cardioid, no proximity effect. Thanks for confirming....

jak

[Fletch]

On Dec 2, 3:35 pm, Carey Carlan > wrote:
> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.


Audio Technica's Artist Elite AE5400, 5100 are both great and designed
to compete with the Neumann 105. We use the 5400 on stage and it's
really sweet.

--Fletch

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Carey Carlan > wrote:
> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little
> else.

Lambaste me for heresy, if you must, but the EV 635A was purposely made for
the human voice. I've mic'd dozens of top-name singers with it and *never*
heard any handling noise or 'plosives. As for feedback? I put one on a
stand where the singer would be, raised the monitor to feedback and backed
it off 6 dB. When the vocalist arrived, he asked me to turn down the
monitor! Janis Joplin's level coming out of a 635A was -20 dBu!

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Carey Carlan]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

>>What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
>>proximity effect?
>
> There are none of them, because the basic physics mean that proximity
> effect and pattern are inextricably linked.
>
> The best you can do is an EV mike with the variable-D trick like the
> 664, RE-11, RE-16, etc.
>
> However, there's also no reason you can't use the console EQ to
> counteract proximity effect, unless the performer is unable to keep a
> constant distance from the mike. And if that is the case, the EVs are
> a miracle. --scott

Miracles are good. Sounds like the RE-16 is a candidate.

Usually, all I'm doing is offering a mic to the house. I have no
connection to the PA console. On rare occasions I get the feed and forward
it to the console from my recorder. I could insert a mixer and EQ that
way.

[Carey Carlan]

Fletch > wrote in
:

> Audio Technica's Artist Elite AE5400, 5100 are both great and designed
> to compete with the Neumann 105. We use the 5400 on stage and it's
> really sweet.

Opinions from a real user are valuable. How well does the low cut filter
compensate for pops and proxity? Remember, I'm working with rank amateurs.

[Carey Carlan]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in news:
:

> It's already been said, but might bear repeating - Audix OM series.
> Hypercardiod dynamics. I have a number of OM5 and OM6 in SR use. OM5 for
> girls, OM6 for boys. ;-)

Tell me how you like it. Does the rolloff work? Seriously, how are the
OM5 and OM6 different?

[Carey Carlan]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in
:

> Try a Shure KSM9. Also an E-V RE16, but ya gotta keep your hands off
> the side vents.

The Shure is above my price range for this application. I don't need the
durability, and the sound quality is wasted going to cheap PA.

The RE-16 is an option.

[Carey Carlan]

Roy W. Rising > wrote in
:

> Lambaste me for heresy, if you must, but the EV 635A was purposely
> made for the human voice. I've mic'd dozens of top-name singers with
> it and *never* heard any handling noise or 'plosives. As for
> feedback? I put one on a stand where the singer would be, raised the
> monitor to feedback and backed it off 6 dB. When the vocalist
> arrived, he asked me to turn down the monitor! Janis Joplin's level
> coming out of a 635A was -20 dBu!

Another good candidate, but more dangerous feedback candidate when handheld
(wandering about the stage).

[Scott Dorsey]

Roy W. Rising > wrote:
>Carey Carlan > wrote:
>> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>>
>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
>> noise, and feedback?
>>
>> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
>> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
>> like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little
>> else.
>
>Lambaste me for heresy, if you must, but the EV 635A was purposely made for
>the human voice. I've mic'd dozens of top-name singers with it and *never*
>heard any handling noise or 'plosives. As for feedback? I put one on a
>stand where the singer would be, raised the monitor to feedback and backed
>it off 6 dB. When the vocalist arrived, he asked me to turn down the
>monitor! Janis Joplin's level coming out of a 635A was -20 dBu!

The 635A will feed back less than most omnis because it's pretty clean
off-axis with no narrow peaks. I have used it for PA applications, and
the general gain before feedback isn't as good as an SM-57... but it sounds
really good in a situation where you can live with that. I strongly
recomend it for rear-miking guitar cabinets too, where feedback is usually
a non-issue.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Dec 3, 8:54 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> In article >,
> Carey Carlan > wrote:
>
> >I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> >What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> >noise, and feedback?
>
> In the cheap range: AKG D880.
>
> In the medium range. Sennheiser 431
>
> In the expensive range: Neumann KMS105. Also has huge and peaky top
> end, but very lttle handling noise.
>
> A tight pattern translates to high gain before feedback, and the ability
> to work the mike at a distance. There are people out there, though, who
> are microphone-eaters and used to shoving an SM-58 right up against their
> lips. These people will have plosive problems with any microphone and the
> only solution is proper mike technique.
>
> >I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> >supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> >like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.
>
> Start with a D880, available for under $50 used. Then try the 431.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Second the MD431. Sounds marvellous in a studio situation as well.

[Arny Krueger]

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in news:
> :
>
>> It's already been said, but might bear repeating - Audix
>> OM series. Hypercardiod dynamics. I have a number of OM5
>> and OM6 in SR use. OM5 for girls, OM6 for boys. ;-)
>
> Tell me how you like it. Does the rolloff work?

Yes, pretty well.

> Seriously, how are the OM5 and OM6 different?

OM6s have more low end extension and are less directional.

[LAB]

> SCOTTDORSEY:
> Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a
> tight pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you
> will get an omni.

>> LAB:
>> e835 (no proximity effect) is near omni at low frequencies, but it's
>> directional at mid/high freq's.

>>> FEDERICO:
>>> It's nearly omni under 125Hz as every mic I know...

Uh?...

Sennheiser e835:
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/resources/evo_835_GB.pdf/$File/evo_835_GB.pdf
(-3dB @ 180°)
------------------------------------------
Sennheiser e845:
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/resources/e_845_US.pdf/$File/e_845_US.pdf
(-9dB @ 180°)
Sennheiser MKH40P48:
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/resources/MKH_40_P_48_GB.pdf/$File/MKH_40_P_48_GB.pdf
(~ -30dB @ 180°)
Shure SM58:

(-11dB @ 180°)
Shure 565:

(-12dB @ 180°)
Audix Om5: http://www.audixusa.com/Acrobat/OM5_spec_sheet.pdf (-14dB @ 180°)

Which mics are you talking about?...

Gianluca

[Federico]

> Which mics are you talking about?...

The other ones :-)
F.

[LAB]

Ooops...

I don't sell e835 mics... But I like very much the mine.

Gianluca

[LAB]

^__^

[LAB]

P.S.: Ma perchè tiamo qui a parlare in Inglese? Possiamo anche continuare in
un NG IT... :-)

Gianluca


--
Non temer mai di dire cose insensate. Ma ascoltale bene, quando le dici.
(L. Wittgenstein)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen
(L. Wittgenstein) [Grazie, Franco!]
- Vi prego, quotate in maniera chiara e concisa. Grazie! -

[Earl Kiosterud]

I've been using RE-18 mics for years. Good proximity control, but a noisy mic,
handling-wise, and it's supposed to be quieter than the RE-16 in that regard. It doesn't
have treble boost engineered into it, as do a lot of PA mics to counteract the proximity
effect low-freq emphasis at close range. Consequently, it doesn't have the
suppressed-midrange sound of typical PA mics (make a bad PA sound better than it really does
<g> ), and so tends to sound flatter by comparison. It sounds more like an omni. It sounds
fine, has very good feedback rejection, and can be used at varying distances.
--
Regards from Virginia Beach,

Earl Kiosterud
www.smokeylake.com


"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
> Carey Carlan > wrote:
>>"LAB" > wrote in :
>>
>>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity
>>> effect, beautiful bright sound.
>>
>>I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
>>microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.
>
> Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a tight
> pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you will
> get an omni.
>
>>The EV RE-16 is about three times the price, but it's a hypercardioid.
>>That should help with feedback.
>
> The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
> that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
> one, and nobody other than EV uses it.
>
> The hypercardioid pattern can be a problem with vocalists who don't know
> how to use it... you point the rear directly into a monitor and it WILL
> feed back. If the vocalist knows how to use it, though, it can do wonders.
>
>>What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
>>proximity effect?
>
> There are none of them, because the basic physics mean that proximity
> effect and pattern are inextricably linked.
>
> The best you can do is an EV mike with the variable-D trick like the 664,
> RE-11, RE-16, etc.
>
> However, there's also no reason you can't use the console EQ to counteract
> proximity effect, unless the performer is unable to keep a constant distance
> from the mike. And if that is the case, the EVs are a miracle.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger > wrote:

> "straightnut" > wrote in message
>
> > On Dec 2, 11:20 pm, straightnut > wrote:
> >> On Dec 2, 6:35 pm, Carey Carlan >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
> >>
> >>> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to
> >>> plosives and handling noise, and feedback?
> >>
> >>> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it
> >>> sounds. I don't supply the amps and speakers, and all
> >>> the PA I seem to work with sounds like junk anyway. I
> >>> just want a mic that picks up a voice and little else.
> >>
> >> I recall a couple of years ago someone here suggesting
> >> an Oktava mic that was designed to be practically eaten
> >> when singing. Supposedly great for rejection because of
> >> the way it used proximity effect as an intregal part of
> >> the design.
>
> > Sorry, not Oktava but Audix. OM 5 6 or 7 maybe?
>
> I have a lot of OM5s and 6s. As close-in vocal mics they are surprisingly
> lifelike.

I find those fine stage mics.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

Carey Carlan > wrote:

> What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
> proximity effect?

Audix OM mics, even the OM3 works well and for little money.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Fletch]

On Dec 3, 10:51 am, Carey Carlan > wrote:
> Fletch > wrote :
>
> > Audio Technica's Artist Elite AE5400, 5100 are both great and designed
> > to compete with the Neumann 105. We use the 5400 on stage and it's
> > really sweet.
>
> Opinions from a real user are valuable. How well does the low cut filter
> compensate for pops and proxity? Remember, I'm working with rank amateurs.


It works well enough, and if you EQ out the rest then you're good to
go. I find minor adjustments, based on a given room, will always be
required anyway.

--Fletch

[Fletch]

On Dec 3, 10:36 am, Roy W. Rising >
wrote:
> Carey Carlan > wrote:
> > I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> > What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and handling
> > noise, and feedback?
>
> > I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> > supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with sounds
> > like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and little
> > else.
>
> Lambaste me for heresy, if you must, but the EV 635A was purposely made for
> the human voice. I've mic'd dozens of top-name singers with it and *never*
> heard any handling noise or 'plosives. As for feedback? I put one on a
> stand where the singer would be, raised the monitor to feedback and backed
> it off 6 dB. When the vocalist arrived, he asked me to turn down the
> monitor! Janis Joplin's level coming out of a 635A was -20 dBu!
>
> --
> ~
> ~ Roy
> "If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"


Yeah, the 635a is a great little "go to" mic for a lot of stuff.

--Fletch

[Carey Carlan]

Carey Carlan > wrote in
:

> I'm fed up with ****ty stage mics.
>
> What handheld vocal mics have maximum resistance to plosives and
> handling noise, and feedback?
>
> I'm to the point that I really don't care how good it sounds. I don't
> supply the amps and speakers, and all the PA I seem to work with
> sounds like junk anyway. I just want a mic that picks up a voice and
> little else.

Thanks to all for a whole slew of good suggestions. Now I'll see what I
can do about auditioning the various candidates.

[Earl Kiosterud]

"Earl Kiosterud" > wrote in message news:U%45j.617$gi7.11@trnddc04...
> I've been using RE-18 mics for years. Good proximity control, but a noisy mic,
> handling-wise, and it's supposed to be quieter than the RE-16 in that regard. It doesn't
> have treble boost engineered into it, as do a lot of PA mics to counteract the proximity
> effect low-freq emphasis at close range. Consequently, it doesn't have the
> suppressed-midrange sound of typical PA mics (make a bad PA sound better than it really
> does <g> ), and so tends to sound flatter by comparison. It sounds more like an omni. It
> sounds fine, has very good feedback rejection, and can be used at varying distances.
> --
> Regards from Virginia Beach,
>
> Earl Kiosterud
> www.smokeylake.com
>
>
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
>> Carey Carlan > wrote:
>>>"LAB" > wrote in :
>>>
>>>> Good & cheap: Sennheiser evolution e835: cardioid, no proximity
>>>> effect, beautiful bright sound.
>>>
>>>I like the idea of no proximity effect. The added bass from most
>>>microphones emphasizes boomy PA systems.
>>
>> Proximity effect is directly related to directionality. If you want a tight
>> pattern, you will get a bass boost. If you want no bass boost, you will
>> get an omni.
>>
>>>The EV RE-16 is about three times the price, but it's a hypercardioid.
>>>That should help with feedback.
>>
>> The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
>> that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
>> one, and nobody other than EV uses it.
>>
>> The hypercardioid pattern can be a problem with vocalists who don't know
>> how to use it... you point the rear directly into a monitor and it WILL
>> feed back. If the vocalist knows how to use it, though, it can do wonders.
>>
>>>What other directional (not omni) vocal handhelds have little or no
>>>proximity effect?
>>
>> There are none of them, because the basic physics mean that proximity
>> effect and pattern are inextricably linked.
>>
>> The best you can do is an EV mike with the variable-D trick like the 664,
>> RE-11, RE-16, etc.
>>
>> However, there's also no reason you can't use the console EQ to counteract
>> proximity effect, unless the performer is unable to keep a constant distance
>> from the mike. And if that is the case, the EVs are a miracle.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>


I failed to mention that the RE-18 is identical to the RE-16, except for the noise
isolation. That's why I mentioned it in this thread.

And I keep forgetting that it's bottom-posting in these parts. Sorrrrrry.
--
Regards from Virginia Beach,

Earl Kiosterud
www.smokeylake.com

[Geoff]

Earl Kiosterud wrote:
>
> I failed to mention that the RE-18 is identical to the RE-16, except
> for the noise isolation. That's why I mentioned it in this thread.
>
> And I keep forgetting that it's bottom-posting in these parts. Sorrrrrry.

Yes , it's "bottom posting", but it's also "trim all the unnecessary crap
off the top so everybody doesn't have to scroll down several pages to get to
yor couple of lines"....

geoff

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:51:59 -0500, Carey Carlan wrote
(in article >):

> Fletch > wrote in
> :
>
>> Audio Technica's Artist Elite AE5400, 5100 are both great and designed
>> to compete with the Neumann 105. We use the 5400 on stage and it's
>> really sweet.
>
> Opinions from a real user are valuable. How well does the low cut filter
> compensate for pops and proxity? Remember, I'm working with rank amateurs.

With the low cut filter on, you can fairly eat the AE5400. I reviewed it when
it came out and was shocked at how good it sounded.

AT used some of the AT4050 capsule technology in the AE5400.

The review is in my OnLine Archive.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Paul Stamler]

"Earl Kiosterud" > wrote in message
news:B2n5j.3376$gi7.1673@trnddc04...
>
> I failed to mention that the RE-18 is identical to the RE-16, except for
the noise
> isolation. That's why I mentioned it in this thread.

Except it isn't, really; the RE18's off-axis response is less flat than the
RE16's, which in turn is less flat than the RE15s.

Peace,
Paul

[Michael Rempel]

Take the om5 for female vocals, but you will need to cut a bit on the
top end for male vocals or speech due to sibilance. I have 5 of em, used
them extensively for going on 10 years. I have parametric eq on my
mixer, and I always set it up for a bit of high end cut just in case. 6
to 8k, 3 db usually does it. If you need the SM58 style
cut-through-the-mix sound you can boost 1.5k and not cut highs. But I
prefer to make room in those frequencies by taking a little out of the
instruments when I need vocal articulation.

OM6 is nicer for most male vocals. Some people like a bit looser bottom,
in which case go for the Om3b. The 0m7 is for people who really need
proximity boost. It is hypercardioid. The 5 and 6 are pretty much
supercardioid but they don't seem to have a rear pickup area. They
reject feedback almost 6db more than an sm57/8 so they are very good on
loud stages.

The S1 sound quality is a bit better than these, but the price is about
double if my memory serves right. I don't know how they are for feedback
since the only times I have used it is with in-ears where feedback was
not an issue.

Michael

> I have a lot of OM5s and 6s. As close-in vocal mics they are surprisingly
> lifelike.
>
>

[Michael Rempel]

> The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
> that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
> one, and nobody other than EV uses it.
>
Isnt that just 3ms with an allpass filter? Which is going to be easy to
reproduce on just about any digital console with 2 tracks, some strong
eq and a delay. It does not counteract the proximity effect, it
compensates slightly by allowing the bass to follow after the highs, but
it still booms just as much as any other cardioid.

The delay needs to be about 6-12ms imho to be as good as possible. Some
people go 18, but I can hear that. Run at 100hz with 18db/oct
conventional or 24db linkwitz. Put the delay on the bass half of course.

Any digital crossover will give you that option for the whole system.

Michael

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <qDH5j.708$iU.561@pd7urf2no>,
Michael Rempel > wrote:
>> The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
>> that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
>> one, and nobody other than EV uses it.
>
>Isnt that just 3ms with an allpass filter? Which is going to be easy to
>reproduce on just about any digital console with 2 tracks, some strong
>eq and a delay.

No, you cannot.

What is going on is there are two entrances to the microphone. One goes
to the front of the capsule, the other goes through an acoustical low-pass
filter, a delay, and into the rear vents of the capsule.

You COULD simulate this with just about any digital console by mounting
a second omni microphone a few inches away from the cardioid capsule
of a PA microphone, then doing some dsp. But you don't have to if you
buy the RE-16.

It does not counteract the proximity effect, it
>compensates slightly by allowing the bass to follow after the highs, but
>it still booms just as much as any other cardioid.

No, it does counteract the proximity effect. Look at the original patent
for the 666 and 664.

It does not boom as much as any other cardioid, although it CAN still boom
if you talk into the side vents or if you block the side vents up.

>The delay needs to be about 6-12ms imho to be as good as possible. Some
>people go 18, but I can hear that. Run at 100hz with 18db/oct
>conventional or 24db linkwitz. Put the delay on the bass half of course.
>
>Any digital crossover will give you that option for the whole system.

I think you are mistaking what the Variable-D system really does. It is
ingenious as hell.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Geoff]

Michael Rempel wrote:
> The S1 sound quality is a bit better than these, but the price is
> about double if my memory serves right. I don't know how they are for
> feedback since the only times I have used it is with in-ears where
> feedback was not an issue.

Feedback rejection is excellent, and proximity effect very subtle. Best
pppop filtering I've ever heard inside a grille.

geoff

[hank alrich]

Michael Rempel > wrote:

> > The RE-16 uses a an acoustical delay line to give you a bass cut up close
> > that counteracts the proximity effect. It's a trick, but it's a damn good
> > one, and nobody other than EV uses it.
> >
> Isnt that just 3ms with an allpass filter? Which is going to be easy to
> reproduce on just about any digital console with 2 tracks, some strong
> eq and a delay. It does not counteract the proximity effect, it
> compensates slightly by allowing the bass to follow after the highs, but
> it still booms just as much as any other cardioid.

have you ever used these mics? Any of the EV Variable D mics? IME they
perform exactly as represented by EV.

> The delay needs to be about 6-12ms imho to be as good as possible. Some
> people go 18, but I can hear that. Run at 100hz with 18db/oct
> conventional or 24db linkwitz. Put the delay on the bass half of course.
>
> Any digital crossover will give you that option for the whole system.

I don't think so.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Federico]

I remember Tina Turner performing with an EV PL80....
F.

[Geoff]

Federico wrote:
> I remember Tina Turner performing with an EV PL80....
> F.


..... and Mark Knopfler on "Money for Nothing" video.

I've got one, but not because of that. Can't remember how it sounds - must
dig it out....

geoff