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What would you do with Philips 22AH587



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 28th 06, 03:54 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

Hi again,

I guess there are some older r.a.p poster here, beeing the half life in the
audio domain, so I challenge you with a question of an old pair of
loudspeakers.

For those who know the Philips 22AH587/00R studio speakers:
How would you use them?

The Philips are very old but are triamped. The Bass speaker is MFB (Motion
Feedback) I guess they have some sort of a piezo or coil to messure the
membrane movement, this will be feedbacked to the preamp to enhance the
impuls response - I guess!
They have gyrator-filters for room correction, they take everything from
line to loudspeakerlevel as an input and the MFB and the gain of each amp
can be adjusted on the back.

So far I would use them for mixing or as a reduced set for mastering. But
they have a problem!

1. I guess the controls on the back are not calibrated anymore - They look
very diffrent for both speakers and it's not easy for me to adjust this for
linearity.

2. One midrange speaker was brocken (the connection wire to the coil was
burned), I openend the midrange speaker, took one winding of the coil to
have a new connection, soldered it to the cable and now it is working. But
I heard, that as soon you disassemble a speaker, pull the coil out of the
magnet, the speaker is ill. The speaker has a huge magnet and over this
magnet there was a plastic cup. This cup is broken now, and I think the
midrange speaker recieves too much air from the bass speaker.

My questions now:
Do you know the Philips? How do you like them? What would you recommend to
me how to use these speakers?
Do you recommend me not to use the speaker due to the fact that they are
not adjusted (can I do this - how?) and/or the fact that one midrange
speaker is handicaped. (There is a slight difference between both midrange
speakers in sound, but not very extreme)

all-in-all, what would you do with them?
I think they were nice speakers for their age!

Thanks for any comment,

Lukas


Ads
  #2  
Old March 1st 06, 02:38 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

Am Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:54:20 +0100 schrieb leutholl:

> Hi again,
>
> I guess there are some older r.a.p poster here, beeing the half life in the
> audio domain, so I challenge you with a question of an old pair of
> loudspeakers.
>
> For those who know the Philips 22AH587/00R studio speakers:
> How would you use them?
>
> The Philips are very old but are triamped. The Bass speaker is MFB (Motion
> Feedback) I guess they have some sort of a piezo or coil to messure the
> membrane movement, this will be feedbacked to the preamp to enhance the
> impuls response - I guess!
> They have gyrator-filters for room correction, they take everything from
> line to loudspeakerlevel as an input and the MFB and the gain of each amp
> can be adjusted on the back.
>
> So far I would use them for mixing or as a reduced set for mastering. But
> they have a problem!
>
> 1. I guess the controls on the back are not calibrated anymore - They look
> very diffrent for both speakers and it's not easy for me to adjust this for
> linearity.
>
> 2. One midrange speaker was brocken (the connection wire to the coil was
> burned), I openend the midrange speaker, took one winding of the coil to
> have a new connection, soldered it to the cable and now it is working. But
> I heard, that as soon you disassemble a speaker, pull the coil out of the
> magnet, the speaker is ill. The speaker has a huge magnet and over this
> magnet there was a plastic cup. This cup is broken now, and I think the
> midrange speaker recieves too much air from the bass speaker.
>
> My questions now:
> Do you know the Philips? How do you like them? What would you recommend to
> me how to use these speakers?
> Do you recommend me not to use the speaker due to the fact that they are
> not adjusted (can I do this - how?) and/or the fact that one midrange
> speaker is handicaped. (There is a slight difference between both midrange
> speakers in sound, but not very extreme)
>
> all-in-all, what would you do with them?
> I think they were nice speakers for their age!
>
> Thanks for any comment,
>
> Lukas
>


nobody?
well what would you do with these speakers, even if you don't know them.
Lukas
  #3  
Old March 1st 06, 03:33 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

leutholl > wrote:
>
>nobody?
>well what would you do with these speakers, even if you don't know them.
>Lukas


The same thing I'd do with any good speakers. I'd first of all pull
the drivers and take them to a speaker reconing place, have them measured
and make sure they are all metting the original spec and matched. Then
I'd put them back in again, fix the damaged plastic seal, change all the
bad electrolytic caps in the crossovers and give them a listen.

With the speakers in the condition they are now, you can't tell much.
Get them back in decent shape so you can tell what they sound like.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #4  
Old March 1st 06, 01:46 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587


leutholl wrote:

> For those who know the Philips 22AH587/00R studio speakers:
> How would you use them?


I don't know model numbers, but I recall some Phillips powered speakers
that got some good use in portable recording back in the early 1990s.
The ones I remember were two-way, about the size of Tannoy Reveals,
about right to set up in a van for a temporary remote rig.

> The Philips are very old but are triamped. The Bass speaker is MFB (Motion
> Feedback) I guess they have some sort of a piezo or coil to messure the
> membrane movement, this will be feedbacked to the preamp to enhance the
> impuls response - I guess!


There's an extra winding on the voice coil for motion feedback. It
seemed to work pretty well given that the amplifier was designed to
work specifically for those speakers.

> 1. I guess the controls on the back are not calibrated anymore - They look
> very diffrent for both speakers and it's not easy for me to adjust this for
> linearity.


There could be something deteriorated in the drivers or electronics.
What do you mean by "adjust this for linearity?" I expect that there
are level controls as well as high frequency level. Is there also some
sort of equalizer in there? Can you bypass it?

> 2. One midrange speaker was brocken (the connection wire to the coil was
> burned), I openend the midrange speaker, took one winding of the coil to
> have a new connection, soldered it to the cable and now it is working. But
> I heard, that as soon you disassemble a speaker, pull the coil out of the
> magnet, the speaker is ill. The speaker has a huge magnet and over this
> magnet there was a plastic cup. This cup is broken now, and I think the
> midrange speaker recieves too much air from the bass speaker.


That sounds broken to me. But not seriously broken. I don't understand
just what you disassembled, but if you got it all back together without
having the voice coil rub on the magnet assembly and have it working
electrically, you can always fix the cover over the back of the
speaker.

> Do you know the Philips? How do you like them? What would you recommend to
> me how to use these speakers?


How badly do you want to use them? Obviously they need to be fixed up
in order to be used for anything that requires any sort of accuracy,
but if they're working right they would probably make pretty decent
monitors, or at least good listening speakers. How big are they? If
they're large, do you have room to place them correctly in your room?

> Do you recommend me not to use the speaker due to the fact that they are
> not adjusted (can I do this - how?) and/or the fact that one midrange
> speaker is handicaped.


You can certainly use them for listening to the radio. But you should
figure out the adjustments, and figure out what's working and what's
not. I know you're hoping that someone will jump in who has exactly the
same speaker that you have, but given that this is an old unit that was
never very popular as a studio tool, this isn't very likely. You might
do better asking in a not-too-hi-end audiophile newsgroup. That's where
you're more likely to find someone who has, or has had those speakers.

> all-in-all, what would you do with them?


Frankly, if I didn't need them (which I don't) I'd sell them as-is. Or
more realistically, put them in my garage on the continually growing
pile of stuff that doesn't work any more, that I don't need any more,
that nobody else needs either, but was too expensive to just throw
away.

  #5  
Old March 1st 06, 01:52 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

By the way, I couldn't resist doing a Google search for this speaker
after I posted my reply. I did find a pretty decent photo of one on
eBay and it looks like ther is indeed some sort of equalizer built in.
I'd try to "zero" that out.

If your Dutch is good, the Phillips Motional Feedback web site is at
http://www.mfbfreaks.nl/

  #6  
Old March 1st 06, 04:02 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

Am 1 Mar 2006 05:46:40 -0800 schrieb Mike Rivers:

> leutholl wrote:
>
>> For those who know the Philips 22AH587/00R studio speakers:
>> How would you use them?

>
> I don't know model numbers, but I recall some Phillips powered speakers
> that got some good use in portable recording back in the early 1990s.
> The ones I remember were two-way, about the size of Tannoy Reveals,
> about right to set up in a van for a temporary remote rig.
>
>> The Philips are very old but are triamped. The Bass speaker is MFB (Motion
>> Feedback) I guess they have some sort of a piezo or coil to messure the
>> membrane movement, this will be feedbacked to the preamp to enhance the
>> impuls response - I guess!

>
> There's an extra winding on the voice coil for motion feedback. It
> seemed to work pretty well given that the amplifier was designed to
> work specifically for those speakers.
>
>> 1. I guess the controls on the back are not calibrated anymore - They look
>> very diffrent for both speakers and it's not easy for me to adjust this for
>> linearity.

>
> There could be something deteriorated in the drivers or electronics.
> What do you mean by "adjust this for linearity?" I expect that there
> are level controls as well as high frequency level. Is there also some
> sort of equalizer in there? Can you bypass it?
>
>> 2. One midrange speaker was brocken (the connection wire to the coil was
>> burned), I openend the midrange speaker, took one winding of the coil to
>> have a new connection, soldered it to the cable and now it is working. But
>> I heard, that as soon you disassemble a speaker, pull the coil out of the
>> magnet, the speaker is ill. The speaker has a huge magnet and over this
>> magnet there was a plastic cup. This cup is broken now, and I think the
>> midrange speaker recieves too much air from the bass speaker.

>
> That sounds broken to me. But not seriously broken. I don't understand
> just what you disassembled, but if you got it all back together without
> having the voice coil rub on the magnet assembly and have it working
> electrically, you can always fix the cover over the back of the
> speaker.
>
>> Do you know the Philips? How do you like them? What would you recommend to
>> me how to use these speakers?

>
> How badly do you want to use them? Obviously they need to be fixed up
> in order to be used for anything that requires any sort of accuracy,
> but if they're working right they would probably make pretty decent
> monitors, or at least good listening speakers. How big are they? If
> they're large, do you have room to place them correctly in your room?
>
>> Do you recommend me not to use the speaker due to the fact that they are
>> not adjusted (can I do this - how?) and/or the fact that one midrange
>> speaker is handicaped.

>
> You can certainly use them for listening to the radio. But you should
> figure out the adjustments, and figure out what's working and what's
> not. I know you're hoping that someone will jump in who has exactly the
> same speaker that you have, but given that this is an old unit that was
> never very popular as a studio tool, this isn't very likely. You might
> do better asking in a not-too-hi-end audiophile newsgroup. That's where
> you're more likely to find someone who has, or has had those speakers.
>
>> all-in-all, what would you do with them?

>
> Frankly, if I didn't need them (which I don't) I'd sell them as-is. Or
> more realistically, put them in my garage on the continually growing
> pile of stuff that doesn't work any more, that I don't need any more,
> that nobody else needs either, but was too expensive to just throw
> away.


Thanks a lot, Mike!

I don't use them for now for these reasons, but I think they are a sort of
a mixture between studio monitors and hifi-speakers.

With "adjust this for linearity?" I mean to set the level controls of each
integrated amp (3) and the feedback gain of the MFB cirucit in order to
have the box as linear as possible. Do you do this by ears or with a RTA or
both? The room is optimized but not perfect!
While I can do this for the level control what to do with the MFB?
as i turn the MFB control up, I see that the membran will be much tigther
(like tuning drums) and the bass it tighter but with less volume.

The plastic cup or cover if you want, serves to save the middle speaker
from air coming from the bass speaker. This air will blow inside the box
and if you don't install this cap, the air can get out THROUGH the middle
speaker. This cap is now broken and I can't install this having every
single gap air-proofed.

The size is something between a GENELEC 1030 and 1037, so medium size.
What do you suggest me to watch out when installing big monitors in a small
room? I have enough distance to the back wall and side wall.

Maybe I will sell them as a handicraft goodie on ebay....

Thanks a lot,

Lukas














































































































  #7  
Old March 2nd 06, 11:29 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

leutholl wrote:
> Hi again,


>
> The Philips are very old but are triamped. The Bass speaker is MFB (Motion
> Feedback) I guess they have some sort of a piezo or coil to messure the
> membrane movement, this will be feedbacked to the preamp to enhance the
> impuls response - I guess!


These speakers date from the time it was still hard to design a
reasonably sized speaker that could reproduce anything below 80Hz
The term "impulse response" was not known at that time.
So the MFB was there to provide BOOM BOOM BOOM

And thats about the only quality.
At that time Philips lost every sence of marketing and brought this
enhanced consumer thing, stuffed with lots of knobs, graphs, metal-
frontplates to make it look Professional. It is in no way professional.

Andre


> all-in-all, what would you do with them?
> I think they were nice speakers for their age!
>
> Thanks for any comment,
>
> Lukas


Ebay them, there seem to be fans.
  #8  
Old March 2nd 06, 05:24 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

Dear audio lovers,

I just found this article with my search for links to our website
mfbfreaks.nl. Sound is very personal ofcourse, but the 22AH587 is one
of the best Philips Motional Feedback speakers. I could be talking
hours about these but its better to look at our website and see for
yourself. Its dutch but someday it will be translated to english. When
you own a pair, just do some maintenance on the electronics and adjust
them back to factory defaults (servicemanual available). Then listen,
Philips mfb, small size, big performance! Thanks for your time

http://www.mfbfreaks.nl

André Overweel
Netherlands

  #9  
Old March 2nd 06, 07:30 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default What would you do with Philips 22AH587

Am 2 Mar 2006 09:24:36 -0800 schrieb :

> Dear audio lovers,
>
> I just found this article with my search for links to our website
> mfbfreaks.nl. Sound is very personal ofcourse, but the 22AH587 is one
> of the best Philips Motional Feedback speakers. I could be talking
> hours about these but its better to look at our website and see for
> yourself. Its dutch but someday it will be translated to english. When
> you own a pair, just do some maintenance on the electronics and adjust
> them back to factory defaults (servicemanual available). Then listen,
> Philips mfb, small size, big performance! Thanks for your time
>
>
http://www.mfbfreaks.nl
>
> André Overweel
> Netherlands


Hi André

Please tell about the speakers. I emailed to have a service manual and
maybe I can get a midrange speaker for replacement. Are they really that
good? Well they are sounding very good to me, but I should calibrate them.

Thanks alot Lukas
 




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