Hi,

I'm currently working on a custom build bass guitar, and due to the
amount of bull****ting, rubbish and hearsay on bass forums, I thought
i'd come here for some advice from people who know what they're talking
about.

I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said bass. Is there
anywhere I should be looking? The signal is only as good as the weakest
point in the chain, so I'm looking for everything to be as good as
possible. I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B 250K pots and A + B
500K pots, but obviously some pots are going to be made better than
others. Any suggestions? And is there anything else like this I should
take into consideration?

Thanks in advance,

Nico

That is the very same reason I built my P/J Bass without pots. Sure I
have to go to the amp to set the vol, then use a Wah/Vol pedal. Works
well for me in the Jazz and Blues tunes I do.

Rick
Bass Players Drink Bass (and Home Brew)

Am 21 Feb 2006 17:53:52 -0800 schrieb Rick Bass:

That is the very same reason I built my P/J Bass without pots. Sure I
have to go to the amp to set the vol, then use a Wah/Vol pedal. Works
well for me in the Jazz and Blues tunes I do.

Rick
Bass Players Drink Bass (and Home Brew)

Yes! On a passive bass, take out all pots. My first bass sounded better.
The only explanation I have is that the pots are a slight load to HZ
pickups. Compared to the impedance of the preamp input, the pots are much
lower, so the sound get's altered a little bit. On an active bass, this is
not an issue.

Lukas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Am 21 Feb 2006 18:21:10 -0800 schrieb nweststeyn:

This sounds interesting. Pardon me if I sound stupid, but if i removed
pots from the equation altogether, would I not have to provide an
alternative load in the circuit before the output?

Nico

No. You don't want to "load" your signal in any way. Keep the impedance as
high as possible right to your bass amp...
LUkas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Right On Brother LUkas!
Pots take some of the signal as it is, when you exout the pots you have
direct drive to the amp

Rick
Bass Players Drink Bass

"nweststeyn" wrote ...
This sounds interesting. Pardon me if I sound stupid, but if i removed
pots from the equation altogether, would I not have to provide an
alternative load in the circuit before the output?

Depends on the circuit. Do you have a diagram?
You could post it in news:alt.binaries.schematics.electronic

Unfortunately I don't have a diagram, but (as the pot values above
suggested) it would be passive pickups in the bass. Now that I think
about it, I'm pretty much convinced bypassing pots is the plan for me.
I rarely use the tone control on my current bass, and any tonal changes
can be made from my amp anyway.

Any other ideas as to how I could make this sound even better? Does
anyone have any jack socket preferences?

Nico

Am 21 Feb 2006 18:41:54 -0800 schrieb nweststeyn:

Unfortunately I don't have a diagram, but (as the pot values above
suggested) it would be passive pickups in the bass. Now that I think
about it, I'm pretty much convinced bypassing pots is the plan for me.
I rarely use the tone control on my current bass, and any tonal changes
can be made from my amp anyway.

Any other ideas as to how I could make this sound even better? Does
anyone have any jack socket preferences?

Nico

For the jack socket, they all sound the same, but get a reliable one, and
if you make your own electronics, get a XLR socket on the bass (see alembic
and other high-end basses) and make a custom cable XLR to Jack.

Don't use a blend pot, take two microswitches to switch between both
pickup, maybe you can try to design a circuit to have serial/parallel each
with in-phase and out-of-phase position. This will give you other sounds.
With that you don't have a single pot in the circuit!

LUkas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Am 21 Feb 2006 19:03:11 -0800 schrieb nweststeyn:

Lukas, thanks!

Obviously for a jack socket they will all sound the same as they do
their job, but are any in particular of high quality/reliability.
Neutrik + Switchcrafts?

As for the electronics - I am definetly a fan of switching between
parallel and series, so I shall start planning a way of making this as
versatile as possible without a single pot! Any more suggestions of
ways to do this would be very much appreciated.

Nico

As I live in Switzerland, I recommend you Neutrik ;-) They have Jack socket
where the plug gets locked. Just push in the red "tongue" and it will
unlock. But be shure to have a good Jack plug, otherwise this is your
weakest part...

For the serial/parallel/phase stuff, you want to start with a rotary switch
with more than 2 layers or a 5-way-switch - otherwise you will have many
redundant switch positions. How to connect the cables to the rotary switch
it a little puzzle for you, not so easy to do by heart.
If you don't crack it, see:
http://www.treblebooster.com/brian_may_pickup_mod.htm
and forget all pots!
Lukas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Rick Bass wrote:

That is the very same reason I built my P/J Bass without pots. Sure I
have to go to the amp to set the vol, then use a Wah/Vol pedal. Works
well for me in the Jazz and Blues tunes I do.

Your wah (and any number of other FX boxes) is going to sound best if
there's no volume control ahead of it.

Ever heard of a Jerry loop?

nweststeyn wrote:

This sounds interesting. Pardon me if I sound stupid, but if i removed
pots from the equation altogether, would I not have to provide an
alternative load in the circuit before the output?

Nico

Nico? Didn't you used to sing with Lou Reed?

IF the pot is wired in correctly, it SHOULD be negligible when it's at 10.
At 10, you've got a straight path to output. You've still got the pot
resistance between you and ground, and at high impedance, it's hard to deal
in absolutes, but a straight path is still a straight path, more or less.

leutholl wrote:

Am 21 Feb 2006 18:41:54 -0800 schrieb nweststeyn:

Unfortunately I don't have a diagram, but (as the pot values above
suggested) it would be passive pickups in the bass. Now that I think
about it, I'm pretty much convinced bypassing pots is the plan for me.
I rarely use the tone control on my current bass, and any tonal changes
can be made from my amp anyway.

Any other ideas as to how I could make this sound even better? Does
anyone have any jack socket preferences?

Nico

For the jack socket, they all sound the same, but get a reliable one, and
if you make your own electronics, get a XLR socket on the bass (see
alembic and other high-end basses) and make a custom cable XLR to Jack.

There's no good reason to use an XLR for a passive unbalanced output going
into an unbalanced input. I agree you should choose connectors based on
reliability, because they really don't affect the sound in any way EXCEPT
when they go bad. Switchcraft is good, and reasonably priced. Neutrik and
Canare are also good. Check your supplier for prices.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

nweststeyn wrote:
I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said
bass. Is there anywhere I should be looking? The signal
is only as good as the weakest point in the chain, so
I'm looking for everything to be as good as possible.
I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B 250K pots and
A + B 500K pots, but obviously some pots are going to be
made better than others. Any suggestions? And is there
anything else like this I should take into
consideration?

Basically, get anything you can get. Getting audio taper
pots of ANY kind is difficult these days. Getting them
in values that high is next to impossible. You don't get
much choice.

What about the approaches shown in figures 8 and 9 at
http://sound.westhost.com/pots.htm ?

If you have bad pots, and you leave them all on 10,
does it matter? Like a cheap light dimmer switch on max?

Tom



"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
nweststeyn wrote:
I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said bass. Is there
anywhere I should be looking? The signal is only as good as the weakest
point in the chain, so I'm looking for everything to be as good as
possible. I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B 250K pots and A + B
500K pots, but obviously some pots are going to be made better than
others. Any suggestions? And is there anything else like this I should
take into consideration?

Basically, get anything you can get. Getting audio taper pots of ANY
kind is difficult these days. Getting them in values that high is next
to impossible. You don't get much choice.

I don't think Noble does anything higher than 100K. You might be able
to find some of the higher grade Alps types that high but I suspect
you're in for a minimum order of a thousand units. Sfernice also might
be able to do something that high as a custom order.

Sadly, pots used to be a commodity item and now have become rather
specialized. High grade log taper pots are pretty much only used by
the high end pro audio community, and they don't want the high value
ones much.

This is why you see expensive guitars with crappy Spectrol pots in them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Am Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:43:50 GMT schrieb Tommy B:

If you have bad pots, and you leave them all on 10,
does it matter? Like a cheap light dimmer switch on max?

Tom



"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
nweststeyn wrote:
I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said bass. Is there
anywhere I should be looking? The signal is only as good as the weakest
point in the chain, so I'm looking for everything to be as good as
possible. I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B 250K pots and A + B
500K pots, but obviously some pots are going to be made better than
others. Any suggestions? And is there anything else like this I should
take into consideration?

Basically, get anything you can get. Getting audio taper pots of ANY
kind is difficult these days. Getting them in values that high is next
to impossible. You don't get much choice.

I don't think Noble does anything higher than 100K. You might be able
to find some of the higher grade Alps types that high but I suspect
you're in for a minimum order of a thousand units. Sfernice also might
be able to do something that high as a custom order.

Sadly, pots used to be a commodity item and now have become rather
specialized. High grade log taper pots are pretty much only used by
the high end pro audio community, and they don't want the high value
ones much.

This is why you see expensive guitars with crappy Spectrol pots in them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The problem is what Scott says: It's hard to find a pot higher than 100K,
maybe 250k. In terms of the _serial_ resistance, a pot at pos 10, doesn't
significantly affect the resistance, so this is 1-2 Ohm.
But parallel resistance would be the value of the pot, and this one, you
can't get rid off with a pot.

Try it, as I did, it makes a difference, also in sound!

Be aware of some wired pots build like a coil, they will lowpass the sound.
But you won't find high values anyway.
If you can choose between A or B, linear or log, take the linear one for
tone conrols on bass. the one with a metal housing and ground it, or get
one with plastic but only one which is fully closing the "resistance
track".


Good luck,

Lukas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

nweststeyn wrote:
This sounds interesting. Pardon me if I sound stupid, but if i removed
pots from the equation altogether, would I not have to provide an
alternative load in the circuit before the output?

No, that's the point of removing the pots. Now the pickup sees a higher
load impedance, which is going to make it sound better.

In general, most pickups will sound better with the highest possible
load. But you can't get 10M pots, and if you could they'd be noisy.
So people are relegated to having to use 250K ones.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"leutholl" wrote in message

Am Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:43:50 GMT schrieb Tommy B:

If you have bad pots, and you leave them all on 10,
does it matter? Like a cheap light dimmer switch on max?

Depends which part of the pot is bad. There are several contacts inside a
pot, some of which can mess things up regardess of setting.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
nweststeyn wrote:
I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said
bass. Is there anywhere I should be looking? The
signal is only as good as the weakest point in the
chain, so I'm looking for everything to be as good as
possible. I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B
250K pots and A + B 500K pots, but obviously some pots
are going to be made better than others. Any
suggestions? And is there anything else like this I
should take into consideration?

Basically, get anything you can get. Getting audio
taper pots of ANY kind is difficult these days.
Getting them in values that high is next to impossible.
You don't get much choice.

I don't think Noble does anything higher than 100K.
You might be able to find some of the higher grade Alps
types that high but I suspect you're in for a minimum
order of a thousand units. Sfernice also might be able
to do something that high as a custom order.

Sadly, pots used to be a commodity item and now have
become rather specialized. High grade log taper pots
are pretty much only used by the high end pro audio
community, and they don't want the high value ones much.

This is why you see expensive guitars with crappy
Spectrol pots in them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The problem is what Scott says: It's hard to find a pot
higher than 100K, maybe 250k.

Check suppliers that cater to tubed equipment builders.

In terms of the _serial_ resistance, a pot at
pos 10, doesn't
significantly affect the resistance, so this is 1-2 Ohm.
But parallel resistance would be the value of the pot,
and this one, you can't get rid off with a pot.

Try it, as I did, it makes a difference, also in sound!

Be aware of some wired pots build like a coil, they will
lowpass the sound.

I've seen, heard and measured this effect in a number of cases.

To put this into a more technical perspective, a 10K wirewound pot might
cost you 1 dB at 20 KHz, worst around 50% resistance setting.

I generally use 5K non-wirewound pots for gain and level controls. They can
be flat within a fraction of a dB to 100 KHz and more.

The effect is as others have suggested, due to the inductance of the
resistance winding. This inductance depends on resistance and internal
construction. Inductance in situations like this goes up at a rate that
runs between linear and resistance squared.

So, no matter how you look at it, a 100 K wirewound pot could be an
unintended tone control.

But you won't find high values anyway.
If you can choose between A or B, linear or log, take the
linear one for
tone conrols on bass. the one with a metal housing and
ground it, or get
one with plastic but only one which is fully closing the
"resistance
track".

See the Elliott article link I posted elsewhere for a technique to change
the taper of a linear pot to something more like log. I've used it and it
works for me.

Tommy B wrote:
If you have bad pots, and you leave them all on 10,
does it matter? Like a cheap light dimmer switch on max?

Maybe, depends on the circuit design. But if you're going to do that
all the time, why use them at all?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

All things potential... so to speak.

http://www.potentiometer.com/

--Fletch

nweststeyn wrote On 02/21/06 16:32,:
Hi,

I'm currently working on a custom build bass guitar, and due to the
amount of bull****ting, rubbish and hearsay on bass forums, I thought
i'd come here for some advice from people who know what they're talking
about.

I'm looking for the best sounding pots to fit in said bass. Is there
anywhere I should be looking? The signal is only as good as the weakest
point in the chain, so I'm looking for everything to be as good as
possible. I'm wanting to get a combination of A + B 250K pots and A + B
500K pots, but obviously some pots are going to be made better than
others. Any suggestions? And is there anything else like this I should
take into consideration?

Thanks in advance,

Nico

No, the destination provides the load. Removing the passive volume/tone
controls lightens the load considerably. Just disconnecting the tone
control lightens the load as the tone pot sucks top end details out
even when full up. Running the bass without volume/tone controls allows
great recording if a very short cable is used that teminates into a 1
meg input.

This is why my stuff is all active, to eliminate these destructive
effects. That way, all the harmonics are preserved and buffered from
loading and cable loss capacitance.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Arny Krueger wrote:

What about the approaches shown in figures 8 and 9 at
http://sound.westhost.com/pots.htm ?

Figure 8 is just a standard volume control, and it would need
the same very high value.

Figure 9 is the usual trick to use a dual linear pot and a resistive
shunt to fake a log put. BUT, if you do this, you now need a dual linear
pot with more than twice the resistance of the pot you want. So you
can get away with a linear type, but now you need a still higher
value.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Am 22 Feb 2006 08:16:12 -0800 schrieb :

No, the destination provides the load. Removing the passive volume/tone
controls lightens the load considerably. Just disconnecting the tone
control lightens the load as the tone pot sucks top end details out
even when full up. Running the bass without volume/tone controls allows
great recording if a very short cable is used that teminates into a 1
meg input.

This is why my stuff is all active, to eliminate these destructive
effects. That way, all the harmonics are preserved and buffered from
loading and cable loss capacitance.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Yes! I have the same experience...
Lukas
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

What about the approaches shown in figures 8 and 9 at
http://sound.westhost.com/pots.htm ?

Figure 8 is just a standard volume control, and it would
need
the same very high value.

The text says that shunting the pot's wiper to ground with a resistor that
is about 1/4 the nominal resistance of the linear pot, yields an
rotation-versus-output curve that is within 2 dB of what you'd get from the
often-unobtainable log pot.

Figure 9 is the usual trick to use a dual linear pot and
a resistive shunt to fake a log put. BUT, if you do
this, you now need a dual linear pot with more than twice
the resistance of the pot you want. So you
can get away with a linear type, but now you need a still
higher value.

Agreed that staying within the context of the OP, this is not a solution for
the problems associated with trying to obtain high value log pots. But in
many cases outside that context, it is a solution to the more general
problem of finding log pots of any value.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Agreed that staying within the context of the OP, this is not a solution for
the problems associated with trying to obtain high value log pots. But in
many cases outside that context, it is a solution to the more general
problem of finding log pots of any value.

It is, and it's a pretty good trick. I have used it a lot since it
was pointed out to me in the Audio Cyclopedia. But you wind up with
a lower value pot than you started out with.

The taper that you get isn't as nice as it could be, and of course you
don't get any choice of the taper shape, but it's a lot better than
nothing, which is sometimes the only alternative.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

Agreed that staying within the context of the OP, this is not a solution
for
the problems associated with trying to obtain high value log pots. But in
many cases outside that context, it is a solution to the more general
problem of finding log pots of any value.

It is, and it's a pretty good trick. I have used it a lot since it
was pointed out to me in the Audio Cyclopedia. But you wind up with
a lower value pot than you started out with.

The taper that you get isn't as nice as it could be, and of course you
don't get any choice of the taper shape, but it's a lot better than
nothing, which is sometimes the only alternative.

A lower value indeed; with the stated shunt resistor, you wind up with a
load on the source which is 20% of the pot's value when the pot is wide
open, increasing drastically as you turn the pot down. Depending on the
source, that could make for very weird response.

Question to the OP: do you need to be able to turn all the way down? If not,
you might connect a 100k resistor from the bottom of a 100k audio taper pot
to ground. You'll only be able to turn down by 6dB (maybe a little more
depending on the load following the guitar) but it'll look like a 200k pot
to the pickups and the amp too. Most players never turn down more than about
3dB anyway.

Peace,
Paul

Peace,
Paul