Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant. A good horn in precisely the right
place attaches that music to the walls and the floor and the ceiling,
so that it caresses one all over. This may shock some, but the only
other place I have ever heard Gregorian Chant with such immediacy is
not in a monastery (and I've been to Santa Domingo de Silos, among many
others) but in the home of a retired Philips engineer, who had gutted a
two story villa to leave just the walls and the roof, and who filled it
with many speakers and several Yamaha digital signal processors. Of
course, building a 300B amp and a pair of good horns may seem like an
expert job to many even on the DIY conferences, but placing all those
speakers he had just so was a far, far more expert job. (Speakers are
generally far more difficult than amplifiers, which is why the
half-intelligent are quite capable of building simple amps but buy
their speakers.) It should also be added that his space, speakers and
DSPs were gimmicked and optimized to giving him the inside of the
church at Odense which features on many organ recordings, and that his
music was very largely Bach, and especially the cantata, so that,
considering the amount of effort he expended on this specialty, one
might say that it *should* sound better than the original; I know the
church at Odense as well. Still, I get the same effect from a pair of
horns and a simple single-ended amp. Simplicity also works.

I've now gone and found the double disc set (EMI 7243 5 65217 2 8) of
the Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos whose home I mention above and am
playing it. Those monks sound just as relaxed and laid back as when I
heard them in situ thirty years ago. (1) If you're new to Gregorian
Chant, this is the key set of discs to have -- no, I don't know how I
overlooked the key discs in my first sweep through my boxes: I'm not
perfect either -- and if you're into GC and you do not have the Santo
Domingo de Silos sound, you ain't heard nothing yet.

Andre Jute

(1) Obligatory on-topic bit for the topic police: I wonder if giving
the Santo Domingoes a jolt of several thousand uF in the power supply
will slow them down even further? I have boxes and boxes of 160uF 330V
caps cut out of disposable flash cameras for me by the quickprinters,
so I could easily build a capacitor farm. My amps generally have only
two or three times the classical minimum of capacitance in the power
supply, like 51uF in each leg of a 300B supply, a fraction of what many
modern designers use. I do this not because I am cheap (I have enough
Solen canisters to last my lifetime, and can get more for asking) but
because I happen to like the responsive sound of a "fast" amp. How much
capacitance to put on each leg of double-choked choke-input supply is
one of those things you learn by doing and listening, rather than from
a book. One of the best 845 amps I ever built had 18uF in oil
cannisters on each leg of a cap input supply... (That red spot on the
ceiling is where Patrick just hit it!) ... though there was more
capacitance to smooth the driver stage after the voltage divider.

Andre Jute wrote:

Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant. A good horn in precisely the right
place attaches that music to the walls and the floor and the ceiling,
so that it caresses one all over. This may shock some, but the only
other place I have ever heard Gregorian Chant with such immediacy is
not in a monastery (and I've been to Santa Domingo de Silos, among many
others) but in the home of a retired Philips engineer, who had gutted a
two story villa to leave just the walls and the roof, and who filled it
with many speakers and several Yamaha digital signal processors. Of
course, building a 300B amp and a pair of good horns may seem like an
expert job to many even on the DIY conferences, but placing all those
speakers he had just so was a far, far more expert job. (Speakers are
generally far more difficult than amplifiers, which is why the
half-intelligent are quite capable of building simple amps but buy
their speakers.) It should also be added that his space, speakers and
DSPs were gimmicked and optimized to giving him the inside of the
church at Odense which features on many organ recordings, and that his
music was very largely Bach, and especially the cantata, so that,
considering the amount of effort he expended on this specialty, one
might say that it *should* sound better than the original; I know the
church at Odense as well. Still, I get the same effect from a pair of
horns and a simple single-ended amp. Simplicity also works.

I've now gone and found the double disc set (EMI 7243 5 65217 2 8) of
the Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos whose home I mention above and am
playing it. Those monks sound just as relaxed and laid back as when I
heard them in situ thirty years ago. (1) If you're new to Gregorian
Chant, this is the key set of discs to have -- no, I don't know how I
overlooked the key discs in my first sweep through my boxes: I'm not
perfect either -- and if you're into GC and you do not have the Santo
Domingo de Silos sound, you ain't heard nothing yet.

Andre Jute

(1) Obligatory on-topic bit for the topic police: I wonder if giving
the Santo Domingoes a jolt of several thousand uF in the power supply
will slow them down even further? I have boxes and boxes of 160uF 330V
caps cut out of disposable flash cameras for me by the quickprinters,
so I could easily build a capacitor farm. My amps generally have only
two or three times the classical minimum of capacitance in the power
supply, like 51uF in each leg of a 300B supply, a fraction of what many
modern designers use. I do this not because I am cheap (I have enough
Solen canisters to last my lifetime, and can get more for asking) but
because I happen to like the responsive sound of a "fast" amp. How much
capacitance to put on each leg of double-choked choke-input supply is
one of those things you learn by doing and listening, rather than from
a book. One of the best 845 amps I ever built had 18uF in oil
cannisters on each leg of a cap input supply... (That red spot on the
ceiling is where Patrick just hit it!) ... though there was more
capacitance to smooth the driver stage after the voltage divider.

Hehe, you likie dem oiler capotoes!

I wish I could share your views, but when you have an OPT
and triode working from the Z of an 18uF cap,
its ony about 200 ohms at 50Hz, which sounds lot, but then
the load for a well set up 845 is between 10k and 20k, so
the imd caused by bass F modulating HF isn't a big deal.....

But I still like several hundred uF in all the plate supplies I build.

Tube amps like making music while working from what is virtually
the equivalent of a HV battery imho.

Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.
The religion in the music doesn't matter when the music is good......

( Its also just as well the operas with woeful plots of love, betrayal,
murders of passion
and implausible outcomes don't bother me since I can't understand Italian,
or even English when its sung in operatic style.
The lyrics of much music is BS, so just as well we don't understand it...)

The friars at the Dominican priory near where I grew up
used to sing before mass if we we early; I thought it sounded very cool,
even when i was a callow youth.

But really good horn systems are rare, most "horn ppl"
are trying to believe the horns are just wonderful when they just
ain't.......


Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner wrote

Andre Jute wrote:

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant.

Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.

When I came home this evening, exhausted, after helping a friend paint his
beautiful 1935 French built yacht (now there is a device to sink money into!)
and still facing my own kitchen renovations, which have meant that the normal
sound system is taken down and the temporary gigue! is acquired via a pair of
miniature 25mm SD cone Harmon Kardon speakers ex a Mac G4 and silver SS
receiver, I was transported by the sounds of acapella vocals, and especially
the earthy, yet ethereal, *untrained* sounds of Les Mystere des Voix Bulgares,
from our own Concert Programme, from Radio NZ, http://radionz.co.nz/cfm

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works, and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

Essentially from "yesterday's" schedule now,
http://radionz.co.nz/cfm/schedules/20060119
==
7:00 Appointment

In Close Harmony

Six programmes in which former King's Singer Brian Kay celebrates the history
and art of close harmony singing

(4) Europe

We hear the original sounds of the Real Group (Sweden), Comedian Harmonists
(Austria), the original Swingle Singers (France) and the incredible Les
Mystere des Voix Bulgares (Bulgaria) (CFM)
==
--
Ross Matheson

I regret the excecrably misplaced commas (and excessive exclamation?-)

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works, and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast, in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

But so far we do not have DAB, and even though all the pop stations sound
appalling with the usual compression through a hifi system, there are also a
few small independent stations that sound not *too* bad in comparison to them.

The little Mac speakers - I bought two pairs in an auction - have long,
curved, very narrow reflex tube ports, and almost spherical enclosures.

They sound even better, sitting in a corner atop the receiver as they are -
with a few chunks of foam behind them. I wonder what I am going to do with
them. They seem to soak up a few watts - did I read 10? - before protesting.

The same drivers seem to have been used in upmarket ipod accessories.

I wondered about building an ultra-miniature voigt pipe pair for them, or ...
There is a surprising amount of bass from such small drivers and enclosures.

I imagine they have been highly "tuned" already, but then compactness would
already have been a design goal. Perhaps they might do even better in a larger
enclosure, but I suppose actual testing and measurements will be necessary ...

Anyway, they're very cute - and to hear a passable facsimile of nusic on such
a miniature scale - and it is a miniature presentation, but grows on one, at
least when one is constrained to it over several weeks! - is still a pleasure.
--
Ross Matheson

In article , RdM
writes
I regret the excecrably misplaced commas (and excessive exclamation?-)

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works, and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast, in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

But so far we do not have DAB,

You wouldn't want the poxy thing we have, codec years out of date and
with the possible exception of BBC radio 3 sounds **** poor

and even though all the pop stations sound
appalling with the usual compression through a hifi system, there are also a
few small independent stations that sound not *too* bad in comparison to them.


Depends on how the audio processor is set up. Part of me day job setting
up those glorified dynamic tone controls, have to ave it wound up quite
a bit to get over all the background noise that daytime listening
entails, but its backed off for the more specialist stuff late at
night


--
Tony Sayer

RdM wrote

When I came home this evening, exhausted, after helping a friend
paint his
beautiful 1935 French built yacht (now there is a device to sink
money into!)
and still facing my own kitchen renovations, which have meant that
the normal
sound system is taken down and the temporary gigue! is acquired
via a pair of
miniature 25mm SD cone Harmon Kardon speakers ex a Mac G4 and
silver SS
receiver, I was transported by the sounds of acapella vocals, and
especially
the earthy, yet ethereal, *untrained* sounds of Les Mystere des
Voix Bulgares,
from our own Concert Programme, from Radio NZ,
http://radionz.co.nz/cfm

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the
Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast in relatively uncompressed
quality, a
selection of works, and live concerts recorded here by their own
technicians.

Essentially from "yesterday's" schedule now,
http://radionz.co.nz/cfm/schedules/20060119

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/schedule/index.shtml

cheers, Ian

RdM wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote

Andre Jute wrote:

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant.

Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.

When I came home this evening, exhausted, after helping a friend paint his
beautiful 1935 French built yacht (now there is a device to sink money into!)
and still facing my own kitchen renovations, which have meant that the normal
sound system is taken down and the temporary gigue! is acquired via a pair of
miniature 25mm SD cone Harmon Kardon speakers ex a Mac G4 and silver SS
receiver, I was transported by the sounds of acapella vocals, and especially
the earthy, yet ethereal, *untrained* sounds of Les Mystere des Voix Bulgares,
from our own Concert Programme, from Radio NZ, http://radionz.co.nz/cfm

Like, I gather, (I hope it's true!) the equivalent in the UK, the Concert
Programme here seems to broadcast in relatively uncompressed quality, a
selection of works, and live concerts recorded here by their own technicians.

Essentially from "yesterday's" schedule now,
http://radionz.co.nz/cfm/schedules/20060119
==
7:00 Appointment

In Close Harmony

Six programmes in which former King's Singer Brian Kay celebrates the history
and art of close harmony singing

(4) Europe

We hear the original sounds of the Real Group (Sweden), Comedian Harmonists
(Austria), the original Swingle Singers (France) and the incredible Les
Mystere des Voix Bulgares (Bulgaria) (CFM)
==
--
Ross Matheson

I went to look at the Bulgars but couldn't listen again. That's one of
the fabulous things about the BBC is that you can listen via computer,
if you have broadband, to many of their programmes either live or in
retrospect, which suits me as I work through the night and a lot of the
good stuff goes out when I'm exercising or cooking or lying in my bath
reading a thriller or the RDH, so I play it later while I work. Go here
for an overview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/index.shtml?button
or directly here for BBC Radio 3:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_promo.shtml
or directly here for BBC Radio 4:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_promo.shtml

I have a G4 for my spare machine but don't remember getting speakers
with it. I used Coral drivers in coconuts, made by a Swiss designer, as
speakers with it; very impressive until i discovered the the thing
didn't go into production because the drivers were several times the
price of a complete set of pretty competent multimedia speaks. My
current iMac, the pudding bowl model with the LCD on a stalk, came with
two 100mm clear plastic bullet speakers with 60mm drivers and I find
them impressive too for their size. There is factory nearby that makes
clear plastic stuff and I once had them cast a contoured horn for me.
It sounded just like the molded multiply wooden horn (don't try it at
home, kids, unless you have boatbuilding experience and like not having
skin on your hands...) I used to make the molds, but the molds were a
bitch to make, the mess was appalling, and the cost in wasted materials
made Baltic birch ply seems el cheapo. The truth is the horns looked
cheap too in my cluttered, lived-in rooms, though perfect in the bare
white loft of the present owner, whose decorator appears to have
furnished it from an industrial fittings warehouse; he means it
literally when he says his speakers are "transparent".

Andre Jute

"Patrick Turner" wrote


Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.
The religion in the music doesn't matter when the music is good......


If you and AJ like GC you might like the Nordic variety as well - try to
hear summat by Sequentia:

http://www.sequentia.org/

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/performers/sequentia.html


I think it can be (is) stunning but like Pan Pipe Music and 'goat-grooming
music' from Mali but, as Chris M said on ukra one time, 'a little of it goes
a long way'...!!



But really good horn systems are rare, most "horn ppl"
are trying to believe the horns are just wonderful when they just
ain't.......


Hokay.....

You might get away with that on RAT, but when you are crossposted to ukra
(AJ knows how to spin the wheels...!! ;-) you come under the gaze of
inhabitants of the country which can/has built some of the finest audio kit
(and some of the worst) in the known universe....

This 'hornophobia' needs to be addressed with a degree of 'scientific'
impartiality or, like valves/triodes/SETs and vinyl in this group (ukra), it
becomes no more than more ammo for people to use while they hurl their own
prejudices around! I *have* Ruark, B&W and JM Labs in the house and a pile
of other speakers (shrapnel) in the garage. I have tried every 'make' you
could name up to a fairly low price point and still 'desperately seeking
something' eventually ended up looking at this 'horn thing'...

WHOAH!! the choona's arrived!! :-))

pauses to rip the box open and take the obligatory snap

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Choona.JPG

Featherwight and covered in poop but it'll soon clean up wiv me upholstery
foam cleaner! (It's what they use in hifi shops - brings the black plastic
stuff up like new!!) Now, have I got a bargain for 40 nicker or have I been
stoked? - I eschewed a 'lgendary' TU-260 Mk II for only a fiver less!!
(Maybe I'm darft, but I'd buy dogturds if they were cheap and had the names
Denon or Pioneer on 'em....)


Where was I? Oh yes, horns....

So I start building 'firewood horns' (4 pairs now) and have just finished a
pair of Jerichos (with a 'non-design' driver in them) - they're all (2
pairs of Needles - one for export) he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/titl...20speakers.htm

And I think they are stunning! The Jerichos (stunningest of the lot, so far)
on FM radio (see above re 'new' tuner) come on with fabulous music and
'pinched announcements' which are a bit of a surprise for a few moments,
then they sound fine. With CDs they are *astounding* and vinyl is beyond
description (positively so) without making myself look an even bigger ****
than usual....

What it is, I think (FWIW) is that music and 'hifi' have gone to **** this
last 30/40 years or so and in the UK we have seen amps, for example, go from
where 20 watts was plenty enough for a normal human bean in his own home (in
the UK) to where 100 watts won't hardly do it! (Yes, I know that's not even
twice as loud on the same kit!)

'Audio' has hooked itself onto 'Home Theatre' (to survive?) and everything
is now massively (and unnecessarily IMO) 'dynamic' resulting in a huge,
planar, superficially 'punchy' sound with bags of everything *except*
clarity, class, detail, imaging, *emotion*, musicality and 'listenability'.
My view is that that this is aberrational and we have been weaned away from
the much better sound that was around years ago. For me the 'baseline' is
the *quality* I'm getting from a triode/horn arrangement and I now consider
modern 'audio' to sound much like the telly, where chamber music sounds
pretty much like/no different to a quieter version of the Terminator
soundtrack!! My slogan would be: Try triodes and horns and hear *all* the
words for once....

That's my view - like I said before, if it wuz just me I'd keep quiet about
it, but other listeners round here give the game away! The day before
yesterday (Day 1 of the Jerichos) my old mate Pat came *galloping* round to
hear them (think about that for a moment...) and with him it's the first
second that counts (he gabbles through the music after that) and his face
(and 'Coo!' or 'Streuth!') tells the story!!

He liked 'em - bigtime!! (Trust me....!! ;-)

The 'gainsayers' may gainsay all they like, all I ask is the 'floaters' here
keep an open mind - I'll keep an open door (by appointment, for anyone I
'know' here - the Old Hands) who can come round, have a listen then shoot me
down bigly on the group if I ain't right!! Can't say fairer than that, can
I??

Now, less 'ave a shufti at the Denon. Says 'Made In Germany' on the box -
now we know where 'Vorspring Durch Technics' comes from, don't we?? :-)

As you were chaps, back to what you were doing....

"Keith G" wrote in
:

The 'gainsayers' may gainsay all they like, all I ask is the
'floaters' here keep an open mind - I'll keep an open door (by
appointment, for anyone I 'know' here - the Old Hands) who can come
round, have a listen then shoot me down bigly on the group if I ain't
right!! Can't say fairer than that, can I??


The only thing I don't like, is leaving home grinning at how good my system
is, but getting back after visiting Keith to a very flat and dull sound. It
takes a couple of days to start enjoying it again :-)

--
Cessna172

"Cessna172" wrote in message
. 240.10...
"Keith G" wrote in
:

The 'gainsayers' may gainsay all they like, all I ask is the
'floaters' here keep an open mind - I'll keep an open door (by
appointment, for anyone I 'know' here - the Old Hands) who can come
round, have a listen then shoot me down bigly on the group if I ain't
right!! Can't say fairer than that, can I??


The only thing I don't like, is leaving home grinning at how good my
system
is, but getting back after visiting Keith to a very flat and dull sound.
It
takes a couple of days to start enjoying it again :-)


Ray, ya gotta stop doing that - it makes you look like a 'sockpuppet'!! ;-)

What you are describing is your sense of the 'normal' which becomes
disturbed when you hear summat different - that it takes you time to 'get
back to normal' is an indicator that all is not right with your system,
despite it being way more than 'respectable' in terms of kit!! Although the
Dynavox didn't cut the mustard (I suppose it never stood a chance against
your 120 watt Roksan into the MAs??) I still suspect you are a 'valvie' at
heart!!

I loaned the Bezzer to my mate Pat yesterday to run it into his
recently-acquired Cheviots and he was on the phone two hours later to say he
and his missus were both now 'converted to triodes'....!!!

Remember Oi Va Voi 'Laughter Through Tears' Track 5 for when you are up
again in a few days time.... ;-)

And the track following that....

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Choona.JPG

Featherwight and covered in poop but it'll soon clean up wiv me upholstery
foam cleaner! (It's what they use in hifi shops - brings the black plastic
stuff up like new!!) Now, have I got a bargain for 40 nicker or have I been
stoked? - I eschewed a 'lgendary' TU-260 Mk II for only a fiver less!!
(Maybe I'm darft, but I'd buy dogturds if they were cheap and had the names
Denon or Pioneer on 'em....)

Thats the earlier version, the later one has a tuning knob. All a bit
academic really unless you have that aerial sorted and what progress
hast there bin on that eh?....
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Choona.JPG

Featherwight and covered in poop but it'll soon clean up wiv me upholstery
foam cleaner! (It's what they use in hifi shops - brings the black plastic
stuff up like new!!) Now, have I got a bargain for 40 nicker or have I
been
stoked? - I eschewed a 'lgendary' TU-260 Mk II for only a fiver less!!
(Maybe I'm darft, but I'd buy dogturds if they were cheap and had the
names
Denon or Pioneer on 'em....)

Thats the earlier version, the later one has a tuning knob. All a bit
academic really unless you have that aerial sorted and what progress
hast there bin on that eh?....


The guy didn't come back last week (surprise, surprise) but when I hooked
the Denon up and found it was even hissier than my Luxman (thereby ruling
out the tuner as a possible problem) I got onto the firm (Aerials and
Satellites) and the guy is booked to get here tomorrow to swap the Halo for
a 4 element number!!

I will, hopefully, report a successful conclusion here later tomorrow!!
:-)

In article , Keith G
writes

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Choona.JPG

Featherwight and covered in poop but it'll soon clean up wiv me upholstery
foam cleaner! (It's what they use in hifi shops - brings the black plastic
stuff up like new!!) Now, have I got a bargain for 40 nicker or have I
been
stoked? - I eschewed a 'lgendary' TU-260 Mk II for only a fiver less!!
(Maybe I'm darft, but I'd buy dogturds if they were cheap and had the
names
Denon or Pioneer on 'em....)

Thats the earlier version, the later one has a tuning knob. All a bit
academic really unless you have that aerial sorted and what progress
hast there bin on that eh?....


The guy didn't come back last week (surprise, surprise) but when I hooked
the Denon up and found it was even hissier than my Luxman (thereby ruling
out the tuner as a possible problem)

That might be that the Luxman is doing some Stereo to Mono blending.
Some tuners do this under weak signal conditions in order to reduce
noise.

I got onto the firm (Aerials and
Satellites) and the guy is booked to get here tomorrow to swap the Halo for
a 4 element number!!

Bloody right.

I will, hopefully, report a successful conclusion here later tomorrow!!
:-)

If I can get usable reception from Peterbourgh then I'm bloody sure you
should. For the serious radio anoraks among you the new mast is about to
be fired up!..

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/peterbo...rborough13.asp

--
Tony Sayer

Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant. A good horn in precisely the right
place attaches that music to the walls and the floor and the ceiling,
so that it caresses one all over. This may shock some, but the only
other place I have ever heard Gregorian Chant with such immediacy is
not in a monastery (and I've been to Santa Domingo de Silos, among many
others) but in the home of a retired Philips engineer, who had gutted a
two story villa to leave just the walls and the roof, and who filled it
with many speakers and several Yamaha digital signal processors. Of
course, building a 300B amp and a pair of good horns may seem like an
expert job to many even on the DIY conferences, but placing all those
speakers he had just so was a far, far more expert job. (Speakers are
generally far more difficult than amplifiers, which is why the
half-intelligent are quite capable of building simple amps but buy
their speakers.) It should also be added that his space, speakers and
DSPs were gimmicked and optimized to giving him the inside of the
church at Odense which features on many organ recordings, and that his
music was very largely Bach, and especially the cantata, so that,
considering the amount of effort he expended on this specialty, one
might say that it *should* sound better than the original; I know the
church at Odense as well. Still, I get the same effect from a pair of
horns and a simple single-ended amp. Simplicity also works.

I've now gone and found the double disc set (EMI 7243 5 65217 2 8) of
the Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos whose home I mention above and am
playing it. Those monks sound just as relaxed and laid back as when I
heard them in situ thirty years ago. (1) If you're new to Gregorian
Chant, this is the key set of discs to have -- no, I don't know how I
overlooked the key discs in my first sweep through my boxes: I'm not
perfect either -- and if you're into GC and you do not have the Santo
Domingo de Silos sound, you ain't heard nothing yet.

Andre Jute

(1) Obligatory on-topic bit for the topic police: I wonder if giving
the Santo Domingoes a jolt of several thousand uF in the power supply
will slow them down even further? I have boxes and boxes of 160uF 330V
caps cut out of disposable flash cameras for me by the quickprinters,
so I could easily build a capacitor farm. My amps generally have only
two or three times the classical minimum of capacitance in the power
supply, like 51uF in each leg of a 300B supply, a fraction of what many
modern designers use. I do this not because I am cheap (I have enough
Solen canisters to last my lifetime, and can get more for asking) but
because I happen to like the responsive sound of a "fast" amp. How much
capacitance to put on each leg of double-choked choke-input supply is
one of those things you learn by doing and listening, rather than from
a book. One of the best 845 amps I ever built had 18uF in oil
cannisters on each leg of a cap input supply... (That red spot on the
ceiling is where Patrick just hit it!) ... though there was more
capacitance to smooth the driver stage after the voltage divider.

Hehe, you likie dem oiler capotoes!

Assamatterrafact, Patrick, I don't really. That amp was already so big
and heavy, it just didn't matter if I added forty or fifty poinds of
extra weight for the caps, and an acre to the amp's real estate demand.
I don't really think the marginal improvement in sound of oil caps over
say good polyprops (Solen) are worth it in power amps. Maybe in
pre-amps, but then I don't build preamps any more, only linestage power
amps to use with a CD player.

I wish I could share your views, but when you have an OPT
and triode working from the Z of an 18uF cap,
its ony about 200 ohms at 50Hz, which sounds lot, but then
the load for a well set up 845 is between 10k and 20k, so
the imd caused by bass F modulating HF isn't a big deal.....

No audible difference when you go to 50uF, and you know it. By then you
have long since outworn the welcome of oil caps... And more capacitance
may very easily change the sound adversely, by making it sluggish.

But I still like several hundred uF in all the plate supplies I build.

Tube amps like making music while working from what is virtually
the equivalent of a HV battery imho.

I have a big box of tubes form a local ham and radio restorer that I
was given in return for advising on the restoration of a veteran car. A
few years ago I messed around a bit with an adaptation of a battery
tube design found on the net (Steve Bench's site?). It was rather
jolly, actually, but became a pain when I kept stubbing my foot against
the car batteries I was using to power it.

Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.
The religion in the music doesn't matter when the music is good......

( Its also just as well the operas with woeful plots of love, betrayal,
murders of passion
and implausible outcomes don't bother me since I can't understand Italian,
or even English when its sung in operatic style.
The lyrics of much music is BS, so just as well we don't understand it...)

"Scratch my back a little lower, darling,
And fewer anchovies on the pizza,
If you don't mind, darling,
They give me hearburn."

The friars at the Dominican priory near where I grew up
used to sing before mass if we we early; I thought it sounded very cool,
even when i was a callow youth.

But really good horn systems are rare, most "horn ppl"
are trying to believe the horns are just wonderful when they just
ain't.......

When you hear good horns you will know them. Meanwhile, accept sympathy
from Keith and me and others who know better. (1)

Patrick Turner.

Andre Jute

(1) It is very difficult for horn-owners not to sound superior. I've
given up trying.

Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

What all this talk of horns and tubes inspired me to pull is about two
dozen discs of Gregorian chant. A good horn in precisely the right
place attaches that music to the walls and the floor and the ceiling,
so that it caresses one all over. This may shock some, but the only
other place I have ever heard Gregorian Chant with such immediacy is
not in a monastery (and I've been to Santa Domingo de Silos, among many
others) but in the home of a retired Philips engineer, who had gutted a
two story villa to leave just the walls and the roof, and who filled it
with many speakers and several Yamaha digital signal processors. Of
course, building a 300B amp and a pair of good horns may seem like an
expert job to many even on the DIY conferences, but placing all those
speakers he had just so was a far, far more expert job. (Speakers are
generally far more difficult than amplifiers, which is why the
half-intelligent are quite capable of building simple amps but buy
their speakers.) It should also be added that his space, speakers and
DSPs were gimmicked and optimized to giving him the inside of the
church at Odense which features on many organ recordings, and that his
music was very largely Bach, and especially the cantata, so that,
considering the amount of effort he expended on this specialty, one
might say that it *should* sound better than the original; I know the
church at Odense as well. Still, I get the same effect from a pair of
horns and a simple single-ended amp. Simplicity also works.

I've now gone and found the double disc set (EMI 7243 5 65217 2 8) of
the Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos whose home I mention above and am
playing it. Those monks sound just as relaxed and laid back as when I
heard them in situ thirty years ago. (1) If you're new to Gregorian
Chant, this is the key set of discs to have -- no, I don't know how I
overlooked the key discs in my first sweep through my boxes: I'm not
perfect either -- and if you're into GC and you do not have the Santo
Domingo de Silos sound, you ain't heard nothing yet.

Andre Jute

(1) Obligatory on-topic bit for the topic police: I wonder if giving
the Santo Domingoes a jolt of several thousand uF in the power supply
will slow them down even further? I have boxes and boxes of 160uF 330V
caps cut out of disposable flash cameras for me by the quickprinters,
so I could easily build a capacitor farm. My amps generally have only
two or three times the classical minimum of capacitance in the power
supply, like 51uF in each leg of a 300B supply, a fraction of what many
modern designers use. I do this not because I am cheap (I have enough
Solen canisters to last my lifetime, and can get more for asking) but
because I happen to like the responsive sound of a "fast" amp. How much
capacitance to put on each leg of double-choked choke-input supply is
one of those things you learn by doing and listening, rather than from
a book. One of the best 845 amps I ever built had 18uF in oil
cannisters on each leg of a cap input supply... (That red spot on the
ceiling is where Patrick just hit it!) ... though there was more
capacitance to smooth the driver stage after the voltage divider.

Hehe, you likie dem oiler capotoes!

Assamatterrafact, Patrick, I don't really. That amp was already so big
and heavy, it just didn't matter if I added forty or fifty poinds of
extra weight for the caps, and an acre to the amp's real estate demand.
I don't really think the marginal improvement in sound of oil caps over
say good polyprops (Solen) are worth it in power amps. Maybe in
pre-amps, but then I don't build preamps any more, only linestage power
amps to use with a CD player.

I wish I could share your views, but when you have an OPT
and triode working from the Z of an 18uF cap,
its ony about 200 ohms at 50Hz, which sounds lot, but then
the load for a well set up 845 is between 10k and 20k, so
the imd caused by bass F modulating HF isn't a big deal.....

No audible difference when you go to 50uF, and you know it.

assa-m-f, i may know something like this, but then what of the "micro detail"
disturbances because of insufficient PS bypassing?
So I use massive amounts of C which is cheap because of the
development spurred by SMPS use everywhere.

And then there is the brigade who say PS caps must be Black Gate.


By then you
have long since outworn the welcome of oil caps... And more capacitance
may very easily change the sound adversely, by making it sluggish.

Well I just cannot see why the sound would be sluggish due to
huge capacitances in PS; is there a measurable effect that you know of?
If anything, the low C allows some extra imd on transients which lasts only as
long
as the transient, so is it the temporary cap function artifacts making
the dynamics richer sounding?

I admit I don't here much difference in amps with ultra huge C used for PS.
But I sometimes get the job of replacing the 16 uF caps in Quad II amps,
so I use SS diodes, then 47ohms to help reduce peak charge currents slightly,
then 470uF, then 180 ohms, then another 470 uF, and that is where the CT
connects.
The existing choke for the g2 supply is kept but larger value modern elcaps
used.
The result is that the imd caused by PS noise is reduced to negligible levels
wheras the existing crummy Quad II PS has PS caused imd about equal
in level to the THD one may measure in an average amp.
The amps may then be run with 60mA/tube at the same Ea, so
the tubes are less stressed while running in class Ab1.
I use separate 470 Rk for each output tube with 1,000 uF Ck across each 470R.
DC stability is made a lot better, so tubes half way through their life and thus
unmatched will
usually go a few more years.

Ppl say they don't like bypassed anything, but I do, and with lots of bypassing.


But I still like several hundred uF in all the plate supplies I build.

Tube amps like making music while working from what is virtually
the equivalent of a HV battery imho.

I have a big box of tubes form a local ham and radio restorer that I
was given in return for advising on the restoration of a veteran car. A
few years ago I messed around a bit with an adaptation of a battery
tube design found on the net (Steve Bench's site?). It was rather
jolly, actually, but became a pain when I kept stubbing my foot against
the car batteries I was using to power it.

There was a N.E.W ss amp made in china someplace that used
a battery pack that was charged only while not turned on.
The batteries were very heavy.

But really, we don't need to use batteries while we know how to make a decent
PS...



Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.
The religion in the music doesn't matter when the music is good......

( Its also just as well the operas with woeful plots of love, betrayal,
murders of passion
and implausible outcomes don't bother me since I can't understand Italian,
or even English when its sung in operatic style.
The lyrics of much music is BS, so just as well we don't understand it...)

"Scratch my back a little lower, darling,
And fewer anchovies on the pizza,
If you don't mind, darling,
They give me hearburn."

The friars at the Dominican priory near where I grew up
used to sing before mass if we we early; I thought it sounded very cool,
even when i was a callow youth.

But really good horn systems are rare, most "horn ppl"
are trying to believe the horns are just wonderful when they just
ain't.......

When you hear good horns you will know them. Meanwhile, accept sympathy
from Keith and me and others who know better. (1)

Well none of the home made horns I have heard were better than the sound of
expensive firewood
being tickled with audio.

But the Altec and JBL system a client has does sound reasonable.

And you are right that good sound just sounds good when its there.



Patrick Turner.

Andre Jute

(1) It is very difficult for horn-owners not to sound superior. I've
given up trying.

People like to push their own barrow with their own scared cow.
We should slow down as we pass them and be polite, hand them a drink
out the window, and a bale of hay for the cow, and move right along.

Patrick Turner.

Gregorian chants are amongst my favourite musical selections
especially when driving home after playing chess all night on Sundays,
when our dear ABC FM station tenfds to play some decent church music
sung by ppl who are good at it.
The religion in the music doesn't matter when the music is good......


Same here M8. The day job takes me to Ely cathedral from time to time
and its great listening to the choir practising, or evensong on the go

Course I'm never that happy with the sound, always wanting to turn it up
a bit and perhaps a tad more top and a tad more bass etc. Never put up
with it at home like that would you)

( Its also just as well the operas with woeful plots of love, betrayal,
murders of passion
and implausible outcomes don't bother me since I can't understand Italian,
or even English when its sung in operatic style.
The lyrics of much music is BS, so just as well we don't understand it...)


Me neither, just lurve the overall sounds made)

The friars at the Dominican priory near where I grew up
used to sing before mass if we we early; I thought it sounded very cool,
even when i was a callow youth.

Educated bloke there...

But really good horn systems are rare, most "horn ppl"
are trying to believe the horns are just wonderful when they just
ain't.......


Never heard any really. Like me electrostatics though::::
--
Tony Sayer

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

Not to mention the fact that Krueger, Pinkerton et al, are still alive and
holding you responsible for your weirdness, Jute.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

Like Pinkerton and Krueger, for examples.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

I spend a minimum of 10 hours a week recording and assisting with the public
presentation of live music. Sometimes 30. Not enough for you, Jute?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

Not to mention the fact that Krueger, Pinkerton et al, are still alive and
holding you responsible for your weirdness, Jute.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

Like Pinkerton and Krueger, for examples.

Please post some links, Arny to pictures of equipment you have built.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...

I spend a minimum of 10 hours a week recording and assisting with the
public presentation of live music. Sometimes 30. Not enough for you,
Jute?


Yes. We have heard your efforts Arnie. 10hrs a week eh?
Ten seconds of one of your recordings should be enough for
any real music lover:-)

Iain

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Recent talk on RAT and the sister conferences has inspired me. I was
about to say, ****it, putting down a weed like Krueger (or Pinkerton,
or Wieck, or whoever) is a waste of time. Another always springs up.

But there are people out there who still genuinely listen to music, and
are willing to skin their knuckles to build really good gear to listen
to it.

But never mind their gear, what impresses and inspires most is their
remarks about the quality of the music. So often on the technical
conferences built around audio reproduction months can pass without
anyone actually mentioning music...


Interesting too is the fact that the people who do have the patience
the skill and the dedication to build their own systems, usually use
valves/tubes.

I correspond with quite a few people who follow, but do not
subscribe to, RAT. These are people of talent (both musical
and technical) whose presence here would enrich our group.
I am thinking in particular of two very knowledgeable ex BBC types.
One told me that he would rather have cranial surgery than become
involved in a verbal brawl with Mr Pinkerton.

It was Patrick who hit the nail firmly on the heard when he wrote:

"The vast majority of techs who know enough to earn a living
don't talk on the groups.
Most chefs will never discuss how to cook to a mob of ppl
who only buy take aways. There is no point."

Nicely put:-)


I've now gone and found the double disc set (EMI 7243 5 65217 2 8) of
the Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos whose home I mention above and am
playing it. Those monks sound just as relaxed and laid back as when I
heard them in situ thirty years ago. (1) If you're new to Gregorian
Chant, this is the key set of discs to have -- no, I don't know how I
overlooked the key discs in my first sweep through my boxes: I'm not
perfect either -- and if you're into GC and you do not have the Santo
Domingo de Silos sound, you ain't heard nothing yet.


I often listen to secular music (Baroque) but also very much enjoy
Russian Orthodox . There are some superb recordings on the Melodia
label.

So much music - so litle time. The sooner we adopt the metric day of
100 hrs the better:-)

Regards to all,
Iain