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#1
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I want that late 60's-early 70's sound.
Hi everyone, newbie posting he
Today I picked up a vinyl copy of Jefferson Airplanes "Surrealistic Pillow" from a yard sale. I don't particularly like the band that much, but the album was a quarter so I bought it. It blew me away. It reminded me of other stuff from that era like the first Doors album which I worship, Love's "Forever Changes" and "The Velvet Underground and Nico" in the sense that they share a certain sound. I'm not talking about the quality of songwriting, the style of music or the performances, I'm talking about the way those records sound or feel. I guess you could call it the opposite of the current FM radio sound. I'm wondering if any of you, especially those who may have been in the business in the late 60's - early 70's can tell me how that sound was achieved. Was it the tape decks? Tape formula? Was it the consoles? The limited track number? Was it the training of the engineers back then? Was it that they had new U-47's at the time and just stuck them in front of everything and bingo...gorgeous tone? Was it the compression or lack of compression? The mastering or lack of mastering? I just want to know why records don't sound like that anymore, and how, if someone really wanted to, could they go about getting close to that sound? Also, are there any modern pieces of gear that any of you have tried that do a decent job of capturing that retro feel? Are any of the UA remakes any good for this sort of thing? How about a reverb unit that can do a convincing "echo chamber"? Or is there no substitute for the original stuff. Maybe one of you will say that the equipment doesn't matter so much, that it was the brilliant engineering. Could someone like Bruce Botnick record a band through my Soundcraft 600 console with my RNP and still get that sound? I'd like to know what you think. I guess this is more of a discussion topic than a question, but I'm anxious to hear what people have to say. Thanks in advance for any insight. |
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#2
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"telefunky" wrote in message I'm wondering if any of you, especially those who may have been in the business in the late 60's - early 70's can tell me how that sound was achieved. Was it the tape decks? Tape formula? Was it the consoles? The limited track number? Was it the training of the engineers back then? Was it that they had new U-47's at the time and just stuck them in front of everything and bingo...gorgeous tone? Was it the compression or lack of compression? The mastering or lack of mastering? I just want to know why records don't sound like that anymore, and how, if someone really wanted to, To do with tape compression and limited high freq response. Plus all that you mwention. Not a hi fi sound necessarily, but "warm and cosy" if you like that sort of thing. geoff |
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#3
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On 28 May 2005 20:59:33 -0700, "telefunky" wrote:
Today I picked up a vinyl copy of Jefferson Airplanes "Surrealistic Pillow" from a yard sale. I don't particularly like the band that much, but the album was a quarter so I bought it. It blew me away. It reminded me of other stuff from that era like the first Doors album which I worship, Love's "Forever Changes" and "The Velvet Underground and Nico" in the sense that they share a certain sound. I'm not talking about the quality of songwriting, the style of music or the performances, I'm talking about the way those records sound or feel. I guess you could call it the opposite of the current FM radio sound. Very well put! In so many ways. Could someone like Bruce Botnick record a band through my Soundcraft 600 console with my RNP and still get that sound? IMO, the issue is not one of hardware; rather, one of intent. I guess this is more of a discussion topic than a question, but I'm anxious to hear what people have to say. Thanks in advance for any insight. Just guessing, but from context you don't appear to be a Druggie Boomer from "the days", rather to have a fresh, open-minded viewpoint on the mid-war era's music. That you connect with this 35 year old artifact is significant; but is your connection purely musical, or is there a "temporal" element? To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? Chris Hornbeck "I didn't think this would happen again, with or without my best intentions" -Liz Phair, "**** and Run" from _Exile in Guyville_ Mean blues; not for the faint of heart. |
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#4
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"telefunky" Hi everyone, newbie posting he Today I picked up a vinyl copy of Jefferson Airplanes "Surrealistic Pillow" from a yard sale. ** It is available on CD, on RCA: PCD13766 Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. There is nothing wonderful about the sound quality - there is just a lot of echo chamber being used. The performances are classics, you may be being swayed by them. ............ Phil |
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#5
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"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
IMO, the issue is not one of hardware; rather, one of intent. More "live-style" performance/micing all together (as contrasted with tracking individual instruments separately)? Less compression to digital FS? To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? What music? Isn't this the "post-music" era? Its all rap, etc. now. Perhaps another reason you don't need those big commercial studios (the ones that are all folding). You can do pre-distorted grunge on any garage-band equipment. The worse, the "better". |
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#6
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On Sat, 28 May 2005 22:21:10 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote: To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? What music? Isn't this the "post-music" era? Its all rap, etc. now. Perhaps another reason you don't need those big commercial studios (the ones that are all folding). You can do pre-distorted grunge on any garage-band equipment. The worse, the "better". You're doubtless right in any realistic sense, but I'm still a'gin it. Just too old to be POMO. But seriously, can we right wrongs, fix deep problems, yada-yada, without the appropriate fighting songs? My off-the-cuff-guess is Hell No. Maybe music, in the sense of "songs" is more important now than ever, just as our political intentions are more difficult to define. Focus, focus, focus. Then think, think. Then refocus. Thanks for your thoughts, Chris Hornbeck "I didn't think this would happen again, with or without my best intentions" -Liz Phair, "**** and Run" from _Exile in Guyville_ Mean blues; not for the faint of heart. |
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#7
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Phil Allison wrote:
Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. Don't be such a schmuck. He obviously "connected" with the album already. In fact, had he just heard the CD for the first time, he might not have gotten so excited. |
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#8
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Part of the reason your question is very hard to answer is that the classic
albums you mention sound quite different from one another. I always thought "The Doors" was one of the clearest, best-sounding recordings I'd heard. It was recorded sparsely, not much clutter, and that had a lot to do with it. Also, as you mention, good microphones through a good console. And it was mastered on a new Ampex, the last of their tube machines, the MR-70, which a lot of folks thought was the best-sounding, clearest machine they built, at least up to the ATR-100. They also didn't crank the high-frequency EQ up beyond the ear-bleed stage, didn't do much compression (and what they did was tasteful). The echo was almost certainly from an echo chamber, not from a digital simulator. "Surrealistic Pillow" always sounded more covered-up to me, like it had a lot of compression. Wonderful album, but the engineering wasn't as clear as it was on "The Doors". Still, they got a good effect out of it; I still get chills from "Coming Back to Me". Less fancy recorders, more compression, but Al Shmitt was no slouch as an engineer. I'd love to hear what the master tape sounded like. Peace, Paul |
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#9
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Joe Sensor wrote:
Phil Allison wrote: Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. Don't be such a schmuck. He obviously "connected" with the album already. In fact, had he just heard the CD for the first time, he might not have gotten so excited. Exactly Joe...... The reason he probably liked the Airplane record is BECAUSE it is on vinyl and superior to the 16 bit CD pickett fence sound. Old records sound good because they weren't mastered to death and because records sound better than CDs..... Other than that there's no magic to it. I bet Phil Allison hasn't listened to a single piece of vinyl in the last year, so he has no clue what he's talking about with his "vinyl artifacts BS"...... How about the CD Artifact of sounding like swiss cheese? Try taking his advice of ABing a CD and Vinyl copy of that record sometime and you'll 'get it'. VB |
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#10
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"Joe Sensor" Phil Allison wrote: Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. Don't be such a schmuck. ** **** off - you ****ing ******. He obviously "connected" with the album already. ** And he now needs to "un-connect" from the all the vagaries of a god knows what condition, used, vinyl pressing to find out how the **master tape** sounded - to have any chance of analysing how it was recorded. In fact, had he just heard the CD for the first time, he might not have gotten so excited. ** That was just my point - ****head. .............. Phil |
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#11
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"vinyl believer" = a ranting psychotic public menace Joe Sensor wrote: Phil Allison wrote: Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. Don't be such a schmuck. He obviously "connected" with the album already. In fact, had he just heard the CD for the first time, he might not have gotten so excited. Exactly Joe...... The reason he probably liked the Airplane record is BECAUSE it is on vinyl and superior to the 16 bit CD pickett fence sound. ** A paranoid schizo for sure. Old records sound good because they weren't mastered to death and because records sound better than CDs..... Other than that there's no magic to it. ** Most old records sound rotten - even this one is ruined by tape distortion and compression. I bet Phil Allison hasn't listened to a single piece of vinyl in the last year, so he has no clue what he's talking about with his "vinyl artefacts BS". ** I bet this anonymous dog's pile of insane thoughts is right out of a asylum. ............. Phil |
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#12
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Brilliant reply Phil .... You are one smart guy....... with "tin
ears". (Although I know you Phil and concur, that quote comes from a few others in the industry). BTW have you listened to a record all the way through in the last year. VB |
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#13
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Phil Allison wrote:
** **** off - you ****ing ******..... ** That was just my point - ****head. ............. ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... Phil Nice Phil....... That's why you'll never work with us ..... Prick |
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#14
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"vinyl believer" = ranting , psycho, manic TROLL Brilliant reply Phil .. ** **** off you sub human pile of excreta. ............ Phil |
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#15
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"vinyl believer" = a ranting, psycho, manic TROLL ** A real piece of trailer park trash, for sure. ........... Phil |
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#16
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Phil Allison wrote:
** **** off you sub human pile of excreta....... ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... ** That was just my point - ****head. ............. ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... ** A real piece of trailer park trash, for sure. .......... Phil Wow Phil you really are a true Moron. Talk about Psycho. Can I push your stupid button again and get some more comments?...... You're quite amusing. VB |
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#17
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Phil Allison wrote: ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... ** That was just my point - ****head. ............. ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... Phil See in the 70's it would have been: ** get lost - you fool ** ** that was just my point - idiot ** much more pleasant and harmonious much like vinyl.... |
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#18
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"telefunky" wrote in message oups.com... snip I guess this is more of a discussion topic than a question, but I'm anxious to hear what people have to say. Thanks in advance for any insight. Could it be they had talent? - crap in crap out Mike |
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#19
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"vinyl believer" = a ranting, psycho, manic TROLL ** A real piece of trailer park trash, for sure. ........... Phil |
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#20
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On 2005-05-29, telefunky wrote:
Today I picked up a vinyl copy of Jefferson Airplanes "Surrealistic Pillow" from a yard sale. I don't particularly like the band that much, but the album was a quarter so I bought it. It blew me away. The sound would be easier to appreciate if it weren't masked by the reverb. :-( -- André Majorel URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/ (Counterfeit: ) What worries me is not the violence of the few, but the indifference of the many. -- M. L. King |
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#21
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telefunky wrote:
Today I picked up a vinyl copy of Jefferson Airplanes "Surrealistic Pillow" from a yard sale. I don't particularly like the band that much, but the album was a quarter so I bought it. It blew me away. It reminded me of other stuff from that era like the first Doors album which I worship, Love's "Forever Changes" and "The Velvet Underground and Nico" in the sense that they share a certain sound. I'm not talking about the quality of songwriting, the style of music or the performances, I'm talking about the way those records sound or feel. I guess you could call it the opposite of the current FM radio sound. It's not the Dynagroove pressing, is it? The Dynagroove ones sound a lot worse than the original pressing. I'm wondering if any of you, especially those who may have been in the business in the late 60's - early 70's can tell me how that sound was achieved. Was it the tape decks? Tape formula? Was it the consoles? The limited track number? Was it the training of the engineers back then? Was it that they had new U-47's at the time and just stuck them in front of everything and bingo...gorgeous tone? Was it the compression or lack of compression? The mastering or lack of mastering? I just want to know why records don't sound like that anymore, and how, if someone really wanted to, could they go about getting close to that sound? Also, are there any modern pieces of gear that any of you have tried that do a decent job of capturing that retro feel? Are any of the UA remakes any good for this sort of thing? How about a reverb unit that can do a convincing "echo chamber"? Or is there no substitute for the original stuff. Maybe one of you will say that the equipment doesn't matter so much, that it was the brilliant engineering. Could someone like Bruce Botnick record a band through my Soundcraft 600 console with my RNP and still get that sound? I'd like to know what you think. For the most part, a lot of that sound comes from the practice of recording the band all at one time in a big room. The groove that comes from musicians playing together is something that is rapidly becoming lost today. Sure, there is a contribution from the mild processing and from the tape machine artifacts, but so much of it comes from the tracking session. You can build your own chamber in the attic from some cheap sheet plywood and a speaker and a 635A, and it'll sound like a real chamber. The $5,000 Sony sampling reverb does a great job of simulating a chamber, but for a couple hundred bucks you can make a real one. The problem is that getting a big room with good acoustics for a band is getting to be harder and harder. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#22
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? Last night I saw Moby live in Lisbon. He introduced the song "Lift Me Up" from his lastest CD as being about the dangerous situation the USA are in due to being ruled by the right ring. Although I think the lyrics are not very explicit. BTW1, great festival: both New Order and Moby gave two great concerts. Moby has great taste in his influences. Apart from "New Dawn Fades" (Joy Division) which I had already seen on his DVD "Play", he played "Walk on the Wild Side" (Lou Reed) and in one of his song he inserted the melody from one Led Zeppelin song ("Whole Lotta Love", I think) and later on the same song a Pink Floyd-like guitar. BTW2, on one of the songs Moby asked the audience to jump up and down because 3 of the musicians on stage (Lucy (keyboards), Lara (singer) and the guitar player) had never played in an European festival and he wanted to show them 35000 people "going ape****". Does the public in the USA lacks enthusiasm or was he just flattering us ? -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
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#23
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Thanks for the replies so far. I thought maybe I should answer some of
them. Chris: I really was a child of the 80's and I don't have any personal connection to this music which is why I'm so interested in how these sounds were achieved technically. Richard and Scott: I think you're probably right when you talk about tracking a band live with minimal (if any) overdubs. But doesn't the track count have something to do with it? These recordings feel "roomy" to me. Also, Scott, the record is an original pressing, not the one you mentioned. Paul: I think you're right that the albums I mentioned do sound different from each other. I'm trying to figure out what it is that they have in common that makes such an impression on me. Phil: I think I'll stick to the vinyl, this stuff was meant to be heard that way IMHO. Vinyl Believer: I'd love to hear more about what you meant by new records being "mastered to death". Were these classic albums mastered flat? Is it the extra eq process that ruins so many records? Someone also mentioned that the high end wasn't overused on these records which I think is a very interesting point and something I'm going to keep in mind while doing my own recordings. |
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#24
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#26
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? I think it's with Steve Earle. We have an interesting situation about to start evolving in my sparsely populated region. Except for an AM whole-lotta-talkin'-goin'-on, the primary stations have been acquired by "Christian" broadcasters. However, a litle community station started up a while back, and folks associated with it are on the verge of grokking that unless you want to hear talk or religious racket, their station will become the major venue. I think we're about to have some fun. "Can't Get Bin Laden" and "Who Would Jesus Wanna Kill?" are right now moving from their chrysalis stage, and are about to take local flight. -- ha |
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#27
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vinyl believer wrote:
Exactly Joe...... The reason he probably liked the Airplane record is BECAUSE it is on vinyl and superior to the 16 bit CD pickett fence sound. It'll have more to do with the production and engineering than any bull**** "picket fence" malarkey. I don't mind folks preferring any particular medium, but that is spurious crap, VB. -- ha |
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#28
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
For the most part, a lot of that sound comes from the practice of recording the band all at one time in a big room. The groove that comes from musicians playing together is something that is rapidly becoming lost today. And I find it amazing how few seem able to grasp this. Note to the OP: want your band to sound more like that? Play _together_. snipitty doo dah The problem is that getting a big room with good acoustics for a band is getting to be harder and harder. Though you'd think with some many huge SUV's around the garages would have grown to fit, and we'd be home free, so to speak. -- ha |
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#29
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Actually as I recall it was: "Get lost - you Foo"
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#30
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Lines: 17
Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: bhmkggakljkaanefdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboio nndifepgehdenamodoldmkocifcjbkdmbmnakaejecgomnddjj gfddnbepopomkianhadnpnmdabmapaophbeopgcmphicegaadd lclgmijlpk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:47:16 EDT Organization: BellSouth Internet Group Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 05:47:16 GMT Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1175807 On 2005-05-30 said: Phil Allison wrote: ** **** off you sub human pile of excreta....... ** **** off - you ****ing ******..... ** That was just my snippage Phil Y'know VINYL, me just walking into this thread in curiosity, I get a first-read of Phil's usual burp-up and figure "I wonder what this Vb guy wants to know... Phil's so hypereactionary..." And lo... You spew THIS: Phil knows how to have carnal relations with the sheep and that's about it. Hey dumbass Phil still waiting on those legal papers! Rotflmao |
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#31
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"telefunky" Thanks for the replies so far. I thought maybe I should answer some of them. Chris: I really was a child of the 80's and I don't have any personal connection to this music which is why I'm so interested in how these sounds were achieved technically. ** So why rudely reject my advice on how to hear that: " ** It is available on CD, on RCA: PCD13766 Get yourself a CD copy and have a good listen on headphones, that will get the vinyl artefacts out of the issue. " Phil: I think I'll stick to the vinyl, this stuff was meant to be heard that way IMHO. ** But it was NOT recorded onto vinyl - you complete ass. It was recorded onto TAPE !!!!!!!!!! That CD is a straight electronic transfer from the master or sub master tape !!! Any vinyl version has a whole extra layer of signal processing and mechanical artefacts from the cutting and stamping etc, which varies depending on when and where it was made, plus all the vagaries of YOUR home vinyl playback system. Stop being such a stubborn prick and have a good listen to the damn CD. ............ Phil |
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#32
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#33
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Stop being such a stubborn prick and have a good listen to the damn
CD. ............ Phil I agree with Phil, Telefunky (except for the Stuborn Prick, you complete ass, parts) ...... Compare the CD to Vinyl and you'll find that the vinyl sounds much better because 16 bit 44khz CDs are an inferior medium that is missing a lot of information. VB |
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#34
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On Sun, 29 May 2005 21:06:36 +0000, hank alrich wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote: To raise an unrelated issue: what's the music of our Vietnam II? We're again mid-war, again divided, but where's the music? I think it's with Steve Earle. I think you're right. But the general public will never hear it. Because these days, all the mainstream radio stations a 1. afraid to **** off the government (gotta make sure the next round of mergers gets approved by the fcc). 2. Shocked & appalled that Steve followed up his blockbuster Copperhead Road by going to prison on a (gasp!) DRUG charge. |
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#35
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Geez Hank don't take it personally. I'm not the first person to
question the integrity of 16/44 digital recording, and whether adequete information is gathered at this sampling rate...... 24/96 recording on the other hand sounds wonderful. I may not have been recording quite as long as you Hank, but I have 30 years of pro audio recording experience with many major label credits and I can clearly hear that CDs are lacking...... Not only do you hear the "picket fence, swiss cheese, decaf effect", but the highs are brittle and un-natrual and the midrange really lacks depth and information...... The lows don't suffer as badly but are still not acurrate to my ears. If you can't hear any difference Hank, I'm sorry and I mean no offence, but I clearly can and I stand by my observations along with others. But as an engineer I will continue to critcize 16/44 and demand better. In the meantime I feel that Vinyl offers a better listening experience. VB |
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#36
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Well you sure did a lot of tying to say that you don't give a rip.
Go after Phil Allison. He's the one with the Psycho Profanity insults...... He's in serious need of Anger Management....... And yes since he insulted me, I did taunt him and do find him amusing in a sick kind of way. VB |
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#37
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Vinyl Believer: I'd love to hear more about what you meant by new
records being "mastered to death" Kudos to you Telefunky for your quest to make things sound better. And don't let them patronize you and pat you on the head and tell you that you're just a romantic fool listening through rose-colored ears..... Good sound is not just an audio test pattern, it has to have soul and integrity. You probably have gotten by now that I think 16/44 digital recording is not a great medium and I prefer vinyl...... But as was pointed out to me by many experienced engineers here in a long CD vs Vinyl thread, modern mastering has a lot to do with much of the current crop of crappy recordings...... And if you listen to original vinyl from the 60s or 70s and compare them to the some of the remastered versions from the 80s you can clearly hear how bad they sound. So it's not just a CD vs. Vinyl problem. I'm no expert on mastering and others can offer much more insight, but I beleive that bad mastering has as much to do with todays bad music as anything. Great mastering from the likes of Bob Clearmountain, Bob Ohlson, Bernie Grundman and a host of others have turned good records into great records. But in the past records were lightly mastered and many not really at all. Then in the late 80s and 90s everyone had to have their record mastered and many inexperiecned mastering engineers just played with their toys on these projecets and screwed them up just about every way possible..... Too much limiting, volume, compression, eq, you name it. (But mostly too much L1 )...... I hope we can find our way out of this audio nightmare. IMO tread lightly on the mastering and listen and learn from some of the pros here. They have a LOT of good experience. VB |
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#38
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"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
... writes: Al Schmitt and Dave Hassinger were pretty loose in the control room, and the board was fairly simple, but lots of channels. I don't remember the sessions being in stereo; I think it was mono, which Al usually preferred. Well, "After Bathing at Baxter's" certainly used stereo effectively -- at least the bounce-back-and-forth at the end of "Rejoyce"! The speakers were either UREI's or Altecs, I don't remember which. The sound in the control room was huge. I do remember it was an Ampex recorder being used, but I don't remember the model or how many tracks. I once saw a log of track used on Airplane albums: "Takes Off" - 3 tracks "Surrealistic Pillow" - 4 tracks "After Bathing at Baxter's" - 8 tracks "Crown of Creation" - I *think* 8 tracks "Volunteers" and subsequent albums - 16 tracks Peace, Paul |
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#39
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vinyl believer wrote: Geez Hank don't take it personally. I'm not the first person to question the integrity of 16/44 digital recording, and whether adequete information is gathered at this sampling rate...... 24/96 recording on the other hand sounds wonderful. Do you actually know anything about sampling theory? You know, the math stuff. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#40
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"vinyl believer" = a ranting, psycho, manic TROLL ** A real piece of trailer park trash, for sure. ........... Phil |
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